Mild sumping

[FLDavetrain]

This is a 124 touring '16  built on S&S cases. Don't want to pull the hex plug but have some pretty clear sumping symptoms. Most obvious is sluggish when starting out from a light with warm/hot engine or when coming out of a turn (not every time). Heat builds fairly quick but not too bad peak temps. Runs better through the gears once rolling 2nd and up. Dipstick seems pretty steady readings after I settled the level from dry everything to wet normal operation. No heavy discharge from the head externals and oil tank vent line is dry (running 4-5 dots down the stick).
Using Thayers pump/plate (seeing 30ish psi warm running and 7-10psi hot idle). I'm running the blue pump/plate in another bike and I'm wondering if the S&S higher volume gears would be an improvement with crankcase scavenging? If there's mild sumping (I believe there is) would the S&S set up be a slight upgrade for this? I need to know whether the pump design differences are worth making a change. Thanks everyone

[Ohio HD]

I have over 44,000 hard miles on a Thayer pump in a 117", OEM cases. Never sumped.

Pull the drain or it's just guessing.

[FLDavetrain]

I'm trying to get useful info on the 2 pumps and their design differences in relation to wet sumping. Forget my situation. Speaking on just the design of the 2 pumps.,...would one potentially control crankcase oil better based on design? Simple question for someone knowing more than me. Any responses useful to that specific question would be nice. Thanks again

[kd]

Dave, there are lots of oil pump claims and some that may be experience relevant. There are also a few pumps out there.  I know there were several discussions here on it and likely searchable. 

You may or may not need a pump to cure a minor sumping issue as you describe it.   Is this a recent build or do you mean since 2016?  Is the perceived sumping development something that just slowly began, or was it always there?  If it developed slowly or gradually I would think the present pump is possibly suffering.  Maybe it wasn't aligned properly when installed, took in a piece of trash. Or it could be a cam plate o-ring or relief valve leak or runout has increased. It's not a simple thing. I think I would agree with OHIO, even though it isn't answering your question, because it seems apparent you are looking for pump information so you can stop a "perceived" sumping problem.  Remember that there are literally many thousands of stock pumps out there feeding and evacuating oil in engines of all descriptions.   Like him, I wonder if all the new pumps you can afford to buy will permanently fix the problem ("if" there is one) and that's the first answer you really should have.  Is it actually a sumping problem?  If so, has the pump been damaged?  If that is the case, what was the cause?  A pump with increased return capacity may mask a problem temporarily but that can lead to a cata$trophic failure later as it worsens. 

FWIW, My 2 '98 evos and my 2011 120 have better pressure than that "hot". I know others say they don't and all is wonderful. I too would urge you to confirm you have a problem first and if so, what caused it?  Fix that first. I can't help you with who has the best pump because the only time I needed one was when a piece of pinion bearing race broke off and sheared a key when it went through the pump. I hope you find what you need and wish you the best in your quest how ever you decide to proceed.

[FLDavetrain]

KD,  I appreciate the insight

I'll add this is a relatively recent build. 1500 miles, had heat from get go. Compression on high side, exhaust valve a little small for cam timing I'm told. Pump installed very by the book like I always do. I ended up changing heads to better match and now set for a retune. First few hundred motor was just pissed off, heat, smell. It's run well enough at most rpms and gears for me to not consider installation issue or debris damage. Oil pressure is stable as it should be while riding but the idle hot isn't my fav, I do prefer the blue pumps mid 20s idle. So was going with mismatched parts and/or stubborn break in as the issue and now I'm curious of the pumps duty capability in my case not someone else's. Does the blue pump design pull more oil? Maybe nobody wants to answer that. Is there an answer, yes I'm sure there is. I'm not interested in propping one up or down, the 2 pumps are different. The gerotor differences would suggest the blue one scavenges more oil...correct? So whatever my problem is or isn't can anyone confirm or deny that?

[Admiral Akbar]

The problem is the crankcase sump passage is too big.   Bike looses scavenge pump prime. I run SnS cases in a 131 ci motor with Delkron cam plate and fueling pump. Bike would sump if cruising at say 70 on a 95+ day. Pull off the freeway and the sump would recover. At about 15K miles the crank went bad, spread.  Went to a SnS 3 gerotor pump, stayed with the Delkron and have had 0 issues since.

SnS cases have a regular drain plug in the bottom. I drop it during oil changes. 

Add:

The original cases were designed with the SnS cam gear pump so SnS didn't see the issue.  Later they figured out it needed a 3 gerotor pump if running standard cams / plate and no fancy pump.

[FLDavetrain]

The original cases were designed with the SnS cam gear pump so SnS didn't see the issue.  Later they figured out it needed a 3 gerotor pump if running standard cams / plate and no fancy pump.

Are you suggesting that the DT and SnS pump both being 3 stage should eliminate the problem? Would the blue pump handle these SnS cases better, I'm ok with changing parts and throwing more money at it if that means this motor gets happy finally. Have a dyno session booked and need to decide on swapping these pumps and rebooking tune or go ahead with it and see what happens.

[No Cents]

    Loosen the sump plug with the engine being "cold". Don't remove it...just break it loose. Start the engine up and let it come up to temperature. Shut the bike off...then remove the sump plug and catch the oil in a measuring cup to confirm if it's sumping.
  I'm like Max...I pull my sump plug and drain the sump at every oil change. I put a little thread sealer on the sump plug each time I remove it. No need to crank the plug down hard when installing it with the thread sealer...just snug it up and it won't leak and it should be easier to remove each time after that initial removal. I bought the Dimple drain plugs with stronger magnets on them...including the sump plug.

[Don D]

We forgot that even large cubic inch twin cams are out there with OEM pumps and they don't sump. Many people don't consider that sumping can be minor and still cause hot running and lower than expected numbers. I experienced this myself many years ago when the dyno tuner told me he suspected the motor was sumping. Pulled the plug to find 6oz. Right then and there I pulled the pump to inspect and found nothing wrong. Put in a new oring in the case and aligned the pump and back together. No sumping. This was a hot 117" with stock cases and OEM 07 pump. Power and torque went up and a subsequent check yielded 2oz.

[FLDavetrain]

Good tip Ray thanks. Don't wanna overwork that hole

[Admiral Akbar]

The original cases were designed with the SnS cam gear pump so SnS didn't see the issue.  Later they figured out it needed a 3 gerotor pump if running standard cams / plate and no fancy pump.

Are you suggesting that the DT and SnS pump both being 3 stage should eliminate the problem? Would the blue pump handle these SnS cases better, I'm ok with changing parts and throwing more money at it if that means this motor gets happy finally. Have a dyno session booked and need to decide on swapping these pumps and rebooking tune or go ahead with it and see what happens.

I'm only providing my experience. Nothing more.  For me, going from a Fueling race pump to the SnS pump corrected sumping on my bike which has early SnS twincam cases. You already stated that the DT pump wasn't working for you. Going to the SnS might work.  I don't know for sure.  The problem with SnS cases is that they sump passage is 1/2 inch in diameter.  Regular HD cases have a couple inch long sump passage that is something like 3/16" in diameter. That passage helps to keep the single gerotor scavenge pump from loosing prime.

Dual scavenge gerotor (what some like to call a 3 stage pump) should handle the issue but may not. Possibly the end clearance on the scavenge pump is too great on your DT?  Maybe it's simply not enough volume?  Don't know.

Repeat. I don't know if going to the SnS over the DT will work for you but it worked for me when going from a Fueling single scavenge rotor pump for me.

If you are running SnS cases, unless they got cheap, you should have a crankcase drain plug that uses straight threads and a O ring. I've never removed the oil passage pipe plug and will likely never remove it.  I add a drain plug to the stock engine case.

[FLDavetrain]

The original cases were designed with the SnS cam gear pump so SnS didn't see the issue.  Later they figured out it needed a 3 gerotor pump if running standard cams / plate and no fancy pump.

Are you suggesting that the DT and SnS pump both being 3 stage should eliminate the problem? Would the blue pump handle these SnS cases better, I'm ok with changing parts and throwing more money at it if that means this motor gets happy finally. Have a dyno session booked and need to decide on swapping these pumps and rebooking tune or go ahead with it and see what happens.

I'm only providing my experience. Nothing more.  For me, going from a Fueling race pump to the SnS pump corrected sumping on my bike which has early SnS twincam cases. You already stated that the DT pump wasn't working for you. Going to the SnS might work.  I don't know for sure.  The problem with SnS cases is that they sump passage is 1/2 inch in diameter.  Regular HD cases have a couple inch long sump passage that is something like 3/16" in diameter. That passage helps to keep the single gerotor scavenge pump from loosing prime.

Dual scavenge gerotor (what some like to call a 3 stage pump) should handle the issue but may not. Possibly the end clearance on the scavenge pump is too great on your DT?  Maybe it's simply not enough volume?  Don't know.

Repeat. I don't know if going to the SnS over the DT will work for you but it worked for me when going from a Fueling single scavenge rotor pump for me.

If you are running SnS cases, unless they got cheap, you should have a crankcase drain plug that uses straight threads and a O ring. I've never removed the oil passage pipe plug and will likely never remove it.  I add a drain plug to the stock engine case.

Admiral I appreciate the info. First SnS case build for me so the sump passage difference and relation to oil pump function makes sense. I would've focused on the pump at the beginning knowing that. There's a few plugs under the case so I'll have to first be sure I'm removing the right one to verify sump. I'll replace with SnS pump anyways since the hot DT idle psi doesn't sit well and it's not even summer temps yet.
Rode it today and all symptoms showed. Even the mid rpm range seems 15-20% down and looking back few months ago, the dyno run looked exactly like how it feels on the road.... struggles more down low then flywheels sorta recover as it climbs. Like Don says, whole performance is off 15% or so. Tuner said the heads were problem, compression too high (212psi verified) and told me wasn't sumping (mild or intermittent sumping probably harder to spot). I should've checked sump immediately so that's on me. So now a new (better) set of heads later lowering ccp to 199psi, it's still problematic however slightly lower temps and pinging gone that couldn't be tuned out. So no regrets on the head swap necessarily however if this turns out to be pump issue then I'll be baffled why I was strongly pushed (by cases prep builder) into the DT unit when I had planned on the SnS. I'll carefully verify on tear down the pump oring but I do triple check that stuff going in. Will report back.

[FLDavetrain]

Add:  Through this process also added mighty mights for head temps and still today at a balmy 64 degrees here in FLA I had heat gun rear head temp of 320 after 10 miles mixed ride lasting all of 20 minutes

[Deye76]

Lot of S&S case builds with no problems. I believe any early problems from 17 years ago with S&S cases have been addressed. 

[rigidthumper]

Something is off.   My 120 @ 11.3:1 CR usually hovered around 265, with the stock cases and factory pump.

[kd]

Something is off.   My 120 @ 11.3:1 CR usually hovered around 265, with the stock cases and factory pump.

Add:  Through this process also added mighty mights for head temps and still today at a balmy 64 degrees here in FLA I had heat gun rear head temp of 320 after 10 miles mixed ride lasting all of 20 minutes

I didn't see it mentioned, what cams and exhaust are you using? I'm with rigidthumper.  My 120 is the same CR and cranking about +20. is usually the same average temp (gun) and doesn't touch 300 degrees.

[FLDavetrain]

Something is off.   My 120 @ 11.3:1 CR usually hovered around 265, with the stock cases and factory pump.

KD,
Mackie 630 with zilla. Have the Mackie in a very similar set up that is stout and runs cool with higher ccp

[kd]

And you were talked into dropping your compression because the pinging couldn't be tuned out?    

FWIW, I am using cams with .030 more lift, slightly more CCP 6-ish#), 12* earlier intake close, 8* less exhaust duration and overlap.

[FLDavetrain]

And you were talked into dropping your compression because the pinging couldn't be tuned out?   

No, compression drop head swap was multiple reasons. Tuner suggested the heads were inconsistent company (not disclosing), I was scolded for setting this build at 212psi (not worth arguing w this person). And the topper, was suggested the exhaust valve at 1.610 was too small for cam timing as mentioned at start. All this advice considered I went ahead with new heads which slightly helps but 100 miles on these heads and still issues. Pump is coming out

[No Cents]

   ...if this was mine I'd check to see how much oil comes out of the sump. If it is sumping...my next move would be to pull the cam chest apart and check the oil pump to case o-ring very closely to make sure it's good. If it is good and you see nothing obviously wrong I would be calling Dan Thayer and I would explain to him what you are experiencing. I honestly think if something is bad with any of his products he will fully stand behind them. I've ran his 3 stage oil pumps and camplates for many years and I have never had any issues with them.

Dan Thayer's phone #
(585)762-4705

   added later:
while you have the cam chest apart...check your crank runout.

[FLDavetrain]

   ...if this was mine I'd check to see how much oil comes out of the sump. If it is sumping...my next move would be to pull the cam chest apart and check the oil pump to case o-ring very closely to make sure it's good. If it is good and you see nothing obviously wrong I would be calling Dan Thayer and I would explain to him what you are experiencing. I honestly think if something is bad with any of his products he will fully stand behind them. I've ran his 3 stage oil pumps and camplates for many years and I have never had any issues with them.

Dan Thayer's phone #
(585)762-4705

   added later:
while you have the cam chest apart...check your crank runout.

Thanks, yes runout check will happen. R&R crank but it's worth a look. Have spoke with Dan before and very nice guy. Will try him again when more concrete info is had

[98fxstc]

Something is off.   My 120 @ 11.3:1 CR usually hovered around 265, with the stock cases and factory pump.

KD,
Mackie 630 with zilla. Have the Mackie in a very similar set up that is stout and runs cool with higher ccp

What size exhaust valve in these heads ?
Seem to be many criticisms/excuses from others before coming here wanting to change pumps   

[FLDavetrain]

Something is off.   My 120 @ 11.3:1 CR usually hovered around 265, with the stock cases and factory pump.

KD,
Mackie 630 with zilla. Have the Mackie in a very similar set up that is stout and runs cool with higher ccp

What size exhaust valve in these heads ?
Seem to be many criticisms/excuses from others before coming here wanting to change pumps   

First set 1.610. Current is 1.625.
The motor is sumping.
Valve train quiet. No vibration. Pistons quiet.
I need to verify sump amount and inspect pump which I will. Thought the Admirals comments were informative and soon I'll see what I find

[kd]

   That was definitely a decent lead. In fact, I think you are well on your way to confirming and solving your problem.

[FXDBI]

Have you checked your piston oilers?  Bob