New Rattle 65 xlh

[cajun1957a]

I know these old skoots tend to ping and rattle a whole lot compared to the new evos, but last week, mine developed a more pronounced rattle in the upper end of the front cylinder.  First thing i will do is check the valves for propper adjustment, but given they are ok, what is the next possibillity?  Im suspecting perhaps rocker arms.  Do they wear out and is there a certain amount of play between them and the rocker shaft?  I used the originals when building this bike and wasnt sure if any play is allowed.  Other than that, I got my distributor issue fixed.  Put on a solid state volt reg too so that problem is fixed.  The motor doesnt miss anymore either since I put the fishtails back on.  I guess they really do need back pressure.  Thanks

randy

[Lew]

Hopefully it's just an adjustment thing. The rocker arms tend to last pretty well and don't usually give any problems.  The bushings and shims can get pretty scary though. I've seen loose guides and seats (fit in head), bent/flexing/hammered pushrod ends, toasted lifter rollers and broken rocker arm and valve springs, loose piston pins, dislocated pin keepers, and broken rings cause noise in the top....and probably a few others I forgot.  After checking the obvious I use a mechanics stethoscope to pin down the noise and go from there.  Might try listening with a long screwdriver or something similar for the source of the noise.  Good luck!

Lew

[cajun1957a]

The Stethescope doesnt really give me much help, other than it seems a tad louder in the top front cylinder.  I can suspect perhaps guides although they were replaced.  Motor has 350 miles on it.  Im being told by a few wrenches that I may be just too fussy given this is an old bike and the tolerances are not as tight as new.  Could be.  One question though is that I have been told that some of you guys run a 60 or even 70 wt. oil.  Our summers get quite warm here and I generally dont go out unless it is hot anyway.  Trouble is, I cant get 60 wt. oil.  None of the automotive stores have it nor can they get it.  I would really like to try a thicker oil but im not into dumping a part can of STP into my scoot.  I dont that would work would it?  Any other ideas.

randy

[Lew]

Possibly there isn't a problem.  The stethoscope would have easily enabled you to pin down any unusual noise. Piston slap and valve train clatter is the norm with these engines until they get up to temp.  I run 60w and can attest to the difficulty in locating it.  Fortunately for me there's a local scooter shop that carries it, otherwise I'd most likely special order it through someplace like NAPA or buy it mail order.

Lew     

[Pynzo]

Valvoline makes 60wt and 70wt oils. Try a local speed shop. Your local Airport may have it also, I used to get Shell Aviation Oil for my Sporty when I lived in Arizona. Worked great!

[saltcaveminer]

ironheads make noise.lots of worn parts will also add noise.low oil pressure will cause noise too. Salty

[One4Tone]

..do you have an oil cooler on the bike..they should drop the temp plus you get a little extra oil in the system..while at it make sure your oik is circulating properly..no pinched lines...not sure if heavier oil is allways the answer..older harley engines lube  based on volume rather than pressure..

[cajun1957a]

I went to a 60 wt. oil and the hammering doesnt appear till about five miles of running.  Good and hot and the oil is thinned out a bit due to heat.  I again took a stethescope to it and other than the normal generator rattle I still cant find it.  I have howerver found that the front cylinder intake valve pushrod tube has a slight vibration or tapping when i touch it.  I dont think the rod is bent though.  Also the noise using the scope tends to be located high up in the rocker box just above that tube.  Maybe that is the issue.  It does not rattle when the motor is cold.  Its quite as a mouse, only when the oil and motor is good and hot.  Im wondering if in fact i have a bent rod or something in the box.  Is there any way to test for that.

randy

[olpigiron]

    Cajun 1957a

I Believe U Can Pull The Rocker Box and Head On The Front Cylinder Once The Fuel Tank Is Removed,
                               And No Need To Pull or Lean Engine Out.
              Also, And I Don't Know If A Lead Substitute Would Help or Even Work.
                 Your Engine Was Made In The Day Of High Octane Leaded Fuel.
           I Use It In Mine and All My Old Tractors, " Peace of Mind " so to speak?
                      Maybe Someone Else Has An Opinion On This "Snake Oil".
                                 Don't Want To Steal Your Thread!!!!


    Cheers
     OPI

[cajun1957a]

Me Again:

Front intake push rod tube has a pronounced vibration on the outside of the tube.  Stethescope hears a noise too.  I pulled the rod and checked to see if it was bent and its straight as an arrow. Reset the valve to specs too.  What could it be? Bad lifter or rocker arm?  Is there anyway to test for either of these without too much trouble?

thanks again

randy

[Ironhead RON]

You say that the motor has 350 miles on it. How many miles prior before rebuild ? How extensive the rebuild ?
Assume you did upper. Were the pushrods replaced into the same positions ? (A must.) Were the springs
checked for proper height ? And strength ? Mismatched stems could be a problem. Always replace as a
matched set. Material of stems has to expand and contract at the same rate. Otherwise, after a cold setting,
they develop different gaps after heating up. Thus noises possible after run temp.

[cajun1957a]

The entire motor was a complete rebuild.  Bottom end as well.  original rods.  Valve guides were replaced and springs are original.   Pistons, rings, wrist pins etc are all new.  The sound occured in the first 50 miles on the motor.  I had a very lean condition in the front cylinder and burnt a plug.  Was able to correct that and verified compression hot at 150 psi in both.  The sound really seems to be coming from the intake pushrod tube.  You can hear it hammering and feel it when hot.  Im running 60 wt. oil currently.  Oil pressure is 20+ psi when cold then drops down to about five when hot.  The manual i have says that is ok.  This is rattling my brains trying to find it.  Im suspecting either a lifter or rocker arm.  Of course the generator has its own noisey rattle but this sound is high up.  Stethescope gives general area again to the intake tube on the front. 

A real head banger.  I know these old bikes are noisey, but im fearing something else it up.

randy

[wreck74]

check the lifter and lifter block for wear.

[IBARider]

I've seen those lifter rollers go and you'd swear the noise was further up....

[cajun1957a]

Ive pulled and replaced the lifter, block and pushrod.  Not quite as much noise but still got some.  I also bought and installed a brand new genny and gear not to mention a set of Andrews PB+ cams.  They needed quite a few shims but all is not within specs as far as end play etc.  The motor is quieter but not by a lot.  Even running straight 60 wt. oil.

The thing is that this motor is quiet as a mouse when cold and as the oil warms and of course thins out , the noise comes.  Has anyone had any experience in adding Lucas to the oil.  I dont know whether that is a good idea or not.  Any ideas?

randy

[wreck74]

That sounds normal, aluminum pushrods, solid lifters need to be adjusted pretty tight.

[cajun1957a]

I have always adjusted the pushrods so that they will just turn with little effort.  That is what the book says.  Am I supposed to tighten them more than that?.  what procedure do you suggest in doing that

randy

[wreck74]

adjust them to where it's kinda hard to turn them.

[saltcaveminer]

why not remove the rocker cover and check it out?Salty

[cajun1957a]

Salty:  I pulled the front head and box today.  I checked the shafts and bushings and all were very close...a thou or two differnece so given i had lots of boxes from other bikes, i found the two tightest and put them in.  The rocker arm had a prounounced indentation in it so i swapped it out as well.  Tourqed it all down and started it and not really any difference.  This bike is super quite utill it gets hot then the clanging starts...about three miles before it starts.  I have an oil cooler witha  pressure gauge on it.  Cold i pull 20 psi and once its hot it drops to 3-6 psi.  I hear that is fine....but that is also when the clanging starts.

So im replaced the cams and shimmed them to within 12-15 thou and put on a new genny.  Did the rocker box thing today and its still loud.  I have a 68 and 75 xlch and they are not like this.  The bikes pulls like a bear.  It will blow the wheels off the 1000 with 10:1 pistons, yet its loud.  I got one quick little sporty but the noise makes me think something is wrong.  But at least i have elliminated the top end as the culprit.

any other ideas.......

ps im running 60 wt. oil

randy

[wreck74]

Idler gear shaft and bushings ?

[saltcaveminer]

as you already know troubleshooting is a process of elimination.honestly if i were there and didn't find anything out of spec,i would have removed the jug.i (and I'm sure everyone else on the board)wish we had sound on this forum, cause we want to solve your noise issue.just a thought when you hear the noise is there any smoke,performance issues at that time?Salty   

[cajun1957a]

Salty:  I do know and then get a good puff of smoke out it especially if its been sitting and sometimes when its really hot.......I tend to over fill the oil tank too and ya  iknow thats not good.  As for performance, this little skoot will blow the wheels of a buddies 1000 xlch.  we both have s&s carbs.....hes running Keith Black 10:1 pistons and bored 20 over...im running andrews pb+ cams.  I have better compression than him too....150 psi front and rear compared to 140 in the 1000.  Mine is 40 over and 9:1's  Makes no sence but performance is not the issue here. 

randy

[wreck74]

Maybe you have the wrong head gaskets for those pistons, this letting the piston to just touch the valve. 

[nibroc]

Maybe you have the wrong head gaskets for those pistons, this letting the piston to just touch the valve.