Correcting PV Hot Idle Issue

[Jim Bronson]

I increased the lower violet cells in the IAC Steps vs Temp table by 5% (100 to 105). After editing, they turned green. Does that sound right? I haven't tried it yet.

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[rigidthumper]

The color only indicates relative size, compared to the rest of the table- biggest #s are red, smallest # are blue, closest to middle are green. That table affects IAC steps during initial engine startup, not idle RPM. Too little and it stumbles, too much and it'll flair.

[Jim Bronson]

Thanks. Poor choice of words. The problem is that it stumbles on startup when hot. If I hold a little throttle during startup for a few seconds it idles normally with no initial stumble.

[rigidthumper]

Crank steps vs temp table values are added to the learned IAC position @ key on. Making values bigger will add a little air during cranking.

Editing the IAC warmup steps table can help with this also. This tables values are added to the crank steps table during warm up, decaying as temp increases.

[Jim Bronson]

Thanks for the explanation. I hope to get time to test it today.

[Jim Bronson]

Tried it this morning. It is improved, but still no cigar. It runs for a couple of seconds and then shuts off but doesn't do the bucking like it did before.  I have the idle set for +50, and it idles fine. I'll try another 5% on the IAC map and see what happens.

[hrdtail78]

Since most start issues are because of the ratio, and opening the throttle is needed to start warm.  Have you tried to pull cranking fuel out of that area?

[Jim Bronson]

Since most start issues are because of the ratio, and opening the throttle is needed to start warm.  Have you tried to pull cranking fuel out of that area?

I haven't. I'm not sure how to do it.

[hrdtail78]

There should be a cranking fuel table under fuel.  It's based on temp as well.  These two tables together control amount of air and fuel for cranking and start.

As a rule of thumb, meaning it isn't 100%.  Usually if the bike starts and burbles up to idle.  It is lean.  At the same time.  If the bike starts and flares.  It's rich.

Does throttle need to opened up a bit to fire or after it fires.  A little throttle is needed to keep it running.  If it is the later.  Fuel and air might need to be added in the higher temps.

[Jim Bronson]

The throttle needs to be opened slightly while cranking. It will then start and run OK as long as the throttle is held open a little. After a few seconds, the throttle can be closed and it will idle normally. As long as I know how it will behave, it isn't a big deal, but I'd still like to fix it.

There is no cranking fuel table under the fuel folder.

[hrdtail78]

Strange on the cranking fuel table.  Is it under a different folder?  I haven't seen a cal with out it yet. The older cals had this table based on straight injector opening.  The later tables based on lambda.  Maybe since based on lambda.  They didn't think it needs adjustment with injector size change anymore.  But I really have no idea what DJ is doing with their product.  My bad if I gave wrong information.

[Jim Bronson]

I bumped the IAC vs temp values another 5%. Still no go. I'll try bumping an idle table next.

[rigidthumper]

Post your current map? Maybe we can see something?

[Jim Bronson]

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[kouack]

i can see the cranking fuel, i do have this issue! there is some tables i can see on my computer but not on my laptop.

[Ohio HD]

I see the cranking fuel table too Jim.

[rigidthumper]

See how the VE near idle has some cells 30 points apart?     

[Jim Bronson]

Well hmmmm... I wonder why you guys can see it and I can't. What version of WinPV are you running? Mine is 3.0.5.38.

I did add 6 steps to the IAC Crank to Run table, and I noticed a small improvement. It doesn't buck as much, but it dies after a few seconds.

[Ohio HD]

[Jim Bronson]

2.2.01.1646 is the firmware version. I downloaded it, but there are no instructions for installing it.
I checked the firmware revision with the DJ update tool, and it reports that I'm up to date with the firmware version and the application version, and yet I show 3.0.5.38 on the "About WinPV", which is the application. I guess that makes sense, as it isn't reporting the firmware version.
?
I plugged the module into the bike, and it shows 2.2.01.1646 as the firmware version, so I think I'm up to date.

I still can't figure why I can't see the Cranking Fuel table.

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[hrdtail78]

This is a bit over my head, and I mention it in hopes someone else can walk you through this or send you in the right direction.

I had something like this come up and a friend of mine that knows vision better than me and has a tuning shop in South/ east Indiana has walked me through it.  Has something to do with putting stock cal back in and pulling it out again to have it sync with the cal you are trying to use.  I was missing some tables and this got them to be visible.  Sorry can't be much more help with this.

Edited to add:  I don't think you need cranking fuel to address the problem you are having.  Cranking mode is over once engine is over idle rpm.

[rbabos]

Likely heat soaked IAT. Add 3% to the effected temp of the warmup table or add 3% to the idle ve table. If your idle is still in closed loop, try 14.5 . It's basically lean when hot, especially if the bike was tuned prior in colder temps.
Ron

[Jim Bronson]

Thanks a lot guys. The bike runs very well except for this pesky issue. I'll keep trying to track it down, and I'll post the solution if I find it.

I'll call DJ next week.

[Jim Bronson]

Just playing around today, I added another 8 steps to the IAC Crank To Run table (for a total of 16 steps). I didn't see any improvement. Ever since I started adding steps to this table, it no longer bucks on startup. It starts normally and idles smoothly for a few seconds and then smoothly shuts off.

I'm thinking I should look elsewhere now, but I'm flying blind.

[Sunny Jim]

Just playing around today, I added another 8 steps to the IAC Crank To Run table (for a total of 16 steps). I didn't see any improvement. Ever since I started adding steps to this table, it no longer bucks on startup. It starts normally and idles smoothly for a few seconds and then smoothly shuts off.

I'm thinking I should look elsewhere now, but I'm flying blind.

I have been through this many times, but if you are uncertain, download
Another map from Dynojet or apply to FM for a map.
My issue was the engine running out of fuel at a precise time. I data logged over and over. My issue was in the VE tables.

[Jim Bronson]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am under the impression that FM only provides tunes if the PV was purchased from them.

[hrdtail78]

Just playing around today, I added another 8 steps to the IAC Crank To Run table (for a total of 16 steps). I didn't see any improvement. Ever since I started adding steps to this table, it no longer bucks on startup. It starts normally and idles smoothly for a few seconds and then smoothly shuts off.

I'm thinking I should look elsewhere now, but I'm flying blind.

I would make my VE's a set 85 from lowest rpm to about 1500.  From 0-15% tps.  Front and rear.  Leave the target alone and make sure closed loop tab is set to zero.  Does Vision allow you to log this start up?  It would be nice to see what is happening when it dies?

FM will send you a calibration if you didn't buy from them.  I think it's $200.

[Jim Bronson]

Many thanks hrdtail78. I'll try your suggestions and see what happens. I've never used the logging feature. I'll give it a try.

Good to know that FM can supply a tune. I suspect the DJ tune is pretty general.

[cheech]

FM will send you a calibration if you didn't buy from them.  I think it's $200.

Good to know that FM can supply a tune. I suspect the DJ tune is pretty general.

YEP. But only $99.95

[Jim Bronson]

I would make my VE's a set 85 from lowest rpm to about 1500.  From 0-15% tps.  Front and rear.  Leave the target alone and make sure closed loop tab is set to zero.  Does Vision allow you to log this start up?  It would be nice to see what is happening when it dies?

FM will send you a calibration if you didn't buy from them.  I think it's $200.

I did the above changes, but the issue didn't resolve. The FM tune is starting to look better. Unfortunately, they won't even sell a map to CA.

We used to have a great tuner near here, but I recently learned he moved to Texas. The shop owner is running the dyno now. He's a nice guy, but I'm not confident in his skills.

[hrdtail78]

Frustrating for sure.  Hard to tune over the net.  If the bike was in front of me.  There is a couple things I would do. 

First I would try the stock cal I pulled out.  This can determine if tune problem or a mechanical problem such as CPS or something.

I would also set one of the VE tables as low as the cal will allow across the entire table.  With the modes of cranking, crank to run and then running on VE?  This will tell me which mode the ECM is in during the shutdown.  If bike starts running on one cylinder.  It has gotten to the run mode on VE's.  This can help in which tables need to be used to address.

I would also do what needs to be down to log the event.  The Visions problem is it gets power from the bike and this power is cut off during cranking.  IE the vision is busy powering up again and no log can be performed.  This can be address a couple different ways.  Power up vision with off bike power source or log with different device.  If TTS is available.  Collection speed needs to be turned down or this will kill the bike as well.  Without good data of this action.  An educated guess is all we have.  Along with what the tuners can log.  I would also have a fuel pressure gauge on it as well.

IME with the out of box combos and no good starters.  I have not had this problem at the extreme you are seeing.  Sure I get blubbering to run, flares, stumbles and such.  Maybe a pop and white smoke out of AC as it dies but have never seen engine quit smoothly like stated.  It was my opinion that this area has a pretty big tolerance of error and still does what it is suppose to do.

[Jim Bronson]

Thanks again hrdtail78. There are some good tips there for me to pursue. I think I'll inspect and test the IAC. The bike sat for long periods (It is a 2013, and it had only 2800 miles when I bought it in January of this year). The original DJ map was installed by the tech who did the work before he delivered it. He only rode it briefly to check for leaks, etc. After he delivered it, I started doing the auto-tune sessions. I don't recall that I rode it with the original map, and I probably didn't try to start it while hot. I'll install the original map and see if the problem is still there, or maybe was a result of the auto-tune. Lots of areas to explore. Stay tuned ...

[Jim Bronson]

I increased the 'IAC steps vs temp' table today to 120 over the highest temps. It still dies after trying a hot start, but it runs longer before shutting down than it did before with 110 steps. I guess that's progress, but I'm wondering how many steps would be considered excessive and should cause me to look elsewhere. Maybe bump up the VE table 5% in the 750° cells, like in the post #21 suggestion.

[Sunny Jim]

I increased the 'IAC steps vs temp' table today to 120 over the highest temps. It still dies after trying a hot start, but it runs longer before shutting down than it did before with 110 steps. I guess that's progress, but I'm wondering how many steps would be considered excessive and should cause me to look elsewhere. Maybe bump up the VE table 5% in the 750° cells, like in the post #21 suggestion.

You're running out of fuel.
Can you collect any data and check it on HDMLV?
If you are working by trial and error , then bump up the VEs

[Jim Bronson]

Thanks Sunny Jim. I'll try increasing the 750 and 1000 VEs today at zero throttle.

[Jim Bronson]

Thanks Sunny Jim. I'll try increasing the 750 and 1000 VEs today at zero throttle.

Tried this today (+5% for both RPM cells at 0% throttle.) No change. Should I continue with +5% steps?

[Jamie Long]

The cranking steps should not need to be that high, I'm not clear on the exact issue you are encountering. Please give a detailed description as well as the year/model of your bike and all of the mods that have been done, also post a copy of the tune and I will take a look.

[Jim Bronson]

Thank you Jamie.
The bike is a 2013 Dyna FXDC.
S&S 110 kit
S&S 585 cam
S&S free flowing air filter
V&H Pro Pipe 2 into 1 exhaust/quiet baffle
Power Vision (wish I had bought from FM, but I live in CA)

After three auto-tune sessions, I noticed it would not start and run when hot without using a little throttle. After about 10 seconds of holding some throttle, it idles fine. Otherwise it runs smooth and strong, and it starts normally when cold. If I wait about an hour after shutting down, it cools enough to start normally. Someone recommended increasing "Cranking Fuel", but I cannot see that table in WinPV, even though other forum members can see it. I've tried two Windows PCs, and I cannot see it on either one. Any insights on the problem would be appreciated. I'm going to do another auto-tune session today, and I'll post the current tune afterwards.
Again,many thanks.

[Jim Bronson]

Fourth Auto Tune session from today's ride.

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[rigidthumper]

I'm curious if smoothing the lower RPM/TP VE table would help?

[Jim Bronson]

I received a reply from DJ today regarding why others in the forum can see my Cranking Fuel Table and I can't.

With the latest public release of the WinPV software and PV firmware, the average individual does not have access to the Cranking Fuel table of the tune.  If someone else is able to see it, they are either using older updates or they have the Calibrator file, which allows access to many more tables, that is normally only provided to shops.

I guess we average individuals are screwed.

[cheech]

That's BS if true. 
Not saying you're not, just if the person that sent it is correct.

[Jim Bronson]

I won't post a copy of my reply since this is a family forum. When I previously asked them for hints about fixing my hot starting issue, they sent me some canned info and then suggested I have it dynoed. I agree that a dyno tune by a competent tuner wound be preferable to auto tuning, but my tuner has relocated to Texas, and I don't know of anyone else I can trust around here. The whole reason for buying the PV was to get an acceptable tune for my configuration and have fun doing it.

Thanks for nothing DJ.

[hrdtail78]

Good news.  Tooth count is still a table.  About a 1/4 of the info the system needs to know angle of crank but with so many non 32 tooth cranks on the market.....

[Jim Bronson]

Requested PV folder.

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[Ohio HD]

Mine is the same.

[Mirrmu]

So I see this as temp is impacting fuel delivery to start engine

What section in PV deals with this, bike runs fine

[rigidthumper]

IAC Warmup steps adds a little air to the IAC base position to maintain steady idle during warmup.
Logging from start to full temp would show what the steps and AFR are doing during this time, and give an indicator if it's getting too much air (lean sneeze/die) or too little air (rich stumble/die), and at what temp & IAC position that occurs.

[hrdtail78]

IAC Warmup steps adds a little air to the IAC base position to maintain steady idle during warmup.
Logging from start to full temp would show what the steps and AFR are doing during this time, and give an indicator if it's getting too much air (lean sneeze/die) or too little air (rich stumble/die), and at what temp & IAC position that occurs.

How do you log start up with vision?  I set it up to log at key on, but once the bike starter button is hit.  It limits 12 volts and the unit is restarting while it should be logging.

[rigidthumper]

IDK, but I thought you could log with C3, through Powercore? PV power would come through the USB cable from the PC.

[Mirrmu]

Bike doesn't start

[Sunny Jim]

IAC Warmup steps adds a little air to the IAC base position to maintain steady idle during warmup.
Logging from start to full temp would show what the steps and AFR are doing during this time, and give an indicator if it's getting too much air (lean sneeze/die) or too little air (rich stumble/die), and at what temp & IAC position that occurs.

How do you log start up with vision?  I set it up to log at key on, but once the bike starter button is hit.  It limits 12 volts and the unit is restarting while it should be logging.

Turn your key to ON'
Allow your power vision to power up fully.
Set your data logging up on Gauges.
Connect a USB power supply or Laptop or what ever you have, to your PV.
Start engine and record data.

[Jim Bronson]

^^ I'll try that SJ." It would only need to log a few seconds during start and idle. Thanks.

[Sunny Jim]

^^ I'll try that SJ." It would only need to log a few seconds during start and idle. Thanks.

^^ I'll try that SJ." It would only need to log a few seconds during start and idle. Thanks.

Record it anywhere from 20 seconds to 2 minutes. More data the better for me!!

[Jim Bronson]

The bike shuts off after a few seconds, so it wouldn't be recording anything except maybe temps.

[Sunny Jim]

The bike shuts off after a few seconds, so it wouldn't be recording anything except maybe temps.

VEs??

[Jim Bronson]

I think it is more of an idle issue rather than a cranking problem. Everything is normal during cranking and initial idle, but it shuts down after idling for a few seconds. It does this only when hot, so the problem is that something happens to cut off fuel shortly after starting and running when hot but not when cold. It doesn't stumble; it shuts down cleanly like I turned off the switch. I guess I'll need to think it through and keep reading, since DJ is no help at all. All inputs are welcome.

[Jim Bronson]

Here's a log file I captured today during shutdown. I made some notes to the right of the data.

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[Jamie Long]

I'm not able to use the data in your log as its set to pro/YX mode rather than simple .csv however looking at the tune you posted the VE tables appears to be extremely lean in much of the idle region. For example at 0%  1000 RPM you the VE values are 53/58, but at 2% 1125 RPM the values are 84/89, this is about a 60% increase which is not normal within such a small area. If I had to speculate I would say the bike starts & runs ok when cold as it has enough warmup enrichment and then goes into closed loop, when shut of and restarted it does not have the same enrichment as when the motor is cold so it struggles.
I would start with blending all of the VE cells in that big hole you can see in the 5/2/0%, try starting with 85's with some smoothing and see how that works.   

[Jim Bronson]

Sounds like a plan. I'll get it done and post the results. Thanks Jamie.

[Jim Bronson]

It didn't fix the problem. It doesn't run as long as it did previously before shutting down. It shuts down almost immediately after starting and running (maybe two seconds). Also, when coming to a stop, the idle sometimes drops below 800, so I have to add throttle. Sigh....

[rbabos]

Logically if you increase the 1000 rpm ve in both tables by 10-15% and make the 750 rpm the same as the 1000 rpm values, it should stay running. Big question here is why did it autotune to those low values at idle? It's running condition points to low idle ve .Once off the warmup table which adds fuel, it struggles going too lean when the table times out.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

Since this problem only happens on a warm engine.  Have you tried to shut off warm up enrichment?  Might even try loading your original tune and see if problem disappears. Could be a bad cal in the first place.  Find another starter and copy all info and try that one.

I have seen bikes idle with way too rich and way too lean.  Might not be the smoothest but they don't die.

[Jim Bronson]

Maybe I'll try adjusting the low RPM VE setting in the Quick Tune screen. Can't hurt I guess.

[Sunny Jim]

Is it target tune by chance?
Also
Just up your VEs throughout the idle areas on both cylinders, perhaps 10% at a time.
Nothing to lose.

[cstoica]

Maybe I'll try adjusting the low RPM VE setting in the Quick Tune screen. Can't hurt I guess.

Im a little late to the party, so maybe you fixed it, not sure but I had this problem with my twin cam 13 Street Bob 96" Andrews 48H cam. It auto tuned itself into a no start hot condition. If I cracked the throttle it would start fine. And it took a minute before it would maintain a stable idle. Only hot. Everything else was fine. Long story short it was the VE tables at idle were too low. Putting either the stock tune or the FM tune in fixed it. But auto tuning the FM tune, it would go back to not starting hot. So Change the auto tune to not change VE's below whatever MAP reading your getting at idle. For me it was 40. If I remember right it wanted to bring the VE's down to mid 50's I put them at upper 60's and blended the tables and the problem went away.