New 135" Crate Engine

[Nastytls]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuaKfI4TO5U

[Sinker]

If you go to town on a 131 do you really need more power?

[Hossamania]

Yes.

[JSD]

I would have thought a bigger bore size to keep piston speed down to get 135" than 4 5/8 stroke?

[Ohio HD]

At a given RPM, there's only a 3% increase in piston speed.


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[FLSTFIDave]

If you go to town on a 131 do you really need more power?

Yes.  HD crate motors are EPA complaint.

More power is always more fun

[les]

Question:

I've got a 131" crate engine, and when I bought it I was forced to also buy the Header Assembly HDI Catalyst (65600177 for eight hundred bucks) which is still in a box in my basement, unused.  Unused because no one in their right mind would use this piece of crap when spending the massive amount of money associated with doing the 131" crate.  (Full cost ~$12K minimum parts and materials only.)

"If" I were to go out and buy the 135" crate from my local dealership, would I again be forced to buy a second/another 65600177, even though my local dealership has right in their computer system that I already bought the header?  Theoretically, I would reuse the 65600177 on the 135", right?  So, would they make me buy another one even though their computer records show beyond any doubt that I already bought/have one?

[Ohio HD]

I'm would bet that the EPA says they have to sell it with the motor.

[les]

So, to answer my own question, the answer is yes because they will say they don't know that I won't put it into my son's 2019 Street Glide.

  on the 65600177 requirement.

The least H-D could do is to say the 135" cost is $8,800 since you can't get one without the    pipe.

[BigT]

I'm would bet that the EPA says they have to sell it with the motor.

I just recently bought a crate 131" $6,200 plus tax and didn't have to but the pipe.

[les]

I'm would bet that the EPA says they have to sell it with the motor.

I just recently bought a crate 131" $6,200 plus tax and didn't have to but the pipe.

Not sure if you have a typo, but did you say you did not have to get the pipe with the 131" engine?

[rigidthumper]

If you're not trying to maintain ESP/factory warranty, there should be no requirement for the EPA approved exhaust. If you want to throw it away, I've got a dumpster

[hrdtail78]

I would have thought a bigger bore size to keep piston speed down to get 135" than 4 5/8 stroke?

I'd rather see a 4.5 stroke with longer rods myself.  I have liked that combination in the TC.

BUT I am excited about this new engine and glad Harley keeps going bigger.  It's a great generator of work for after market and indy shops that aren't crippled by EPA.

[BigT]

I'm would bet that the EPA says they have to sell it with the motor.

I just recently bought a crate 131" $6,200 plus tax and didn't have to but the pipe.

Not sure if you have a typo, but did you say you did not have to get the pipe with the 131" engine?

Typo... I didn't have to buy the HD pipe

[les]

Ok, so please don't spread it around because my local H-D dealer explained the penalties and they are severe.  Third infraction and they lose their dealership. 

[VernDiesel]

I would have thought a bigger bore size to keep piston speed down to get 135" than 4 5/8 stroke?

MOCO did a great job. I'm impressed with this motor for a cruiser motor and cruiser/touring bike company. That said for myself I'm on the same page as you about piston speed for ring seal.  Which I believe when you are turning up an existing motor and not getting custom pistons to be one of the biggest problem to overcome. For reference;

SBC 350ci 3.48 stroke 6500 rpms 3770 ft/min piston speed
M8  135ci 4.625          6000          4625
M8  139ci 4.375          6400          4667 (4.5 bore) +400 rpms for more avg HP shift to recovery +4ci for
                                                     more TQ & easily attainable HP sameish piston speed/ring seal/wear
NASCAR358 3.025      9400          5092

[turboprop]

Question:

I've got a 131" crate engine, and when I bought it I was forced to also buy the Header Assembly HDI Catalyst (65600177 for eight hundred bucks) which is still in a box in my basement, unused.  Unused because no one in their right mind would use this piece of crap when spending the massive amount of money associated with doing the 131" crate.  (Full cost ~$12K minimum parts and materials only.)

"If" I were to go out and buy the 135" crate from my local dealership, would I again be forced to buy a second/another 65600177, even though my local dealership has right in their computer system that I already bought the header?  Theoretically, I would reuse the 65600177 on the 135", right?  So, would they make me buy another one even though their computer records show beyond any doubt that I already bought/have one?

I asked these questions at my local dealership (Ft. Bragg Harley). They said they did not have to sell the pipe with the engine. Period. They also said they did not care if I were to post this on an open forum.

I pitched these questions to the managers of the service and parts departments within minutes of each other (No chance to sync their answers). Same answers from both of them.

[Hossamania]

Ok, so please don't spread it around because my local H-D dealer explained the penalties and they are severe.  Third infraction and they lose their dealership. 

In which state is this dealer located?

[Ohio HD]

I doubt it matters, the EPA is a federal agency.

[Hossamania]

It just seems California goes a little overboard on the EPA and CARB enforcement.

[cheech]

Being dealers are independently owned businesses.
I have no doubt you'll get various answers whether correct or not regarding stuff like this.
According to their interpretation or policies or lack thereof to follow the "rules".

Of note the Harley-Davidson site: HERE does say the headpipe is a purchase requirement under the details tab.

EPA requirement? Good question.

[les]

Question:

I've got a 131" crate engine, and when I bought it I was forced to also buy the Header Assembly HDI Catalyst (65600177 for eight hundred bucks) which is still in a box in my basement, unused.  Unused because no one in their right mind would use this piece of crap when spending the massive amount of money associated with doing the 131" crate.  (Full cost ~$12K minimum parts and materials only.)

"If" I were to go out and buy the 135" crate from my local dealership, would I again be forced to buy a second/another 65600177, even though my local dealership has right in their computer system that I already bought the header?  Theoretically, I would reuse the 65600177 on the 135", right?  So, would they make me buy another one even though their computer records show beyond any doubt that I already bought/have one?

I asked these questions at my local dealership (Ft. Bragg Harley). They said they did not have to sell the pipe with the engine. Period. They also said they did not care if I were to post this on an open forum.

I pitched these questions to the managers of the service and parts departments within minutes of each other (No chance to sync their answers). Same answers from both of them.

Thank you for this follow up investigation.  As you can guess, I'm scratching my head with confusion.  I think I'll have to do some follow up investigating of my own.

[JW113]

Of note the Harley-Davidson site: HERE does say the headpipe is a purchase requirement under the details tab

That is not what I see, it says you have to re-fit the same pollution control devices that came on the model of the bike you are putting the engine into. I do not see it says you have to buy a new catalytic converter with this engine. Or am I missing something? Also, your link points to the 131, not the 135 as in the subject header.

-JW

[hrdtail78]

The most interesting thing I think the video points out is 5.5 injectors but they changed injector targeting.  If so, sourcing split stream injectors might not matter as much.  There has been some interesting independent testing done and posted on this subject.

[cheech]

Of note the Harley-Davidson site: HERE does say the headpipe is a purchase requirement under the details tab

That is not what I see, it says you have to re-fit the same pollution control devices that came on the model of the bike you are putting the engine into. I do not see it says you have to buy a new catalytic converter with this engine. Or am I missing something? Also, your link points to the 131, not the 135 as in the subject header.

-JW

First off, I linked the 131 because that's what Les said in this thread he has and they required him to purchase the "required" headpipe.
FWIW the 135 says the same and has the same part number headpipe.
 
This is what I see. Says that part number headpipe (which contains the catalyst) is required to purchase.
The OEM head pipe (catalyst) is number: 65600176. I looked up a 2018 FLHTK.
So as everyone is putting these in OEM catalyst equipped bikes brand new unless the bike has been decatted previously. Which I doubt any franchised dealer is doing.

Why would anyone purchase a separate part number catalyst headpipe or a disclaimer from Harley stating a separate part number headpipe is required to buy with the 131 or 135 engine as the bike is already equipped with a catalyst headpipe?
The current speculation is it's an EPA requirement. 
But there it is in black and white print.
A requirement. A separate catalyst headpipe from the one on the bike currently if new.
If I'm in the market I'm surely going to the dealer that claims it isn't a requirement.

I seen the note also under the same details tab..