New woods bushing lifters

[98fxstc]

I assume these will only be available from Bobby Wood,
and if anyone wants to fit travel reducers, they would only be available from Larry ??

[tdrglide]

Advertising says 0.080 more travel. Does this mean approx 0.280 total? Does that serve any purpose? Also supposedly 10% more oil to top end. Good, bad

Don't think I've ever seen lifters from woods marketed with travel limiters. And woods makes some high lift steep ramp cams. Does he ever recommend them?
Took limiters out of my Johnson HY-Lift lifters and cannot tell any difference except it's a little quieter and that's with 660 lift cams

 

[ziggy24]

Even the good ones can fail......

https://youtube.com/shorts/Kgidok8aza0?si=GHigzH5q9gMN8NWg

That video is from jan 2022....cant be a wood lifter.

[Hilly13]

Even the good ones can fail......

https://youtube.com/shorts/Kgidok8aza0?si=GHigzH5q9gMN8NWg

That video is from jan 2022....cant be a wood lifter.

It isn't, but it is a good one, I'll be watching with interest how Bobbies Bushes hold up, my faith in needles has waned.

[FSG]

Advertising says 0.080 more travel. Does this mean approx 0.280 total?

that's more lifter travel before it hits the anti rotation item,
it's NOT more internal piston travel

and that's a good thing   

[tdrglide]

Aha! Now that makes sense 

[itsafatboy]

So on these bushing lifters ,  jims or woods , is there constant oil getting feed to bushing setup? the jims has a big feed hole for the bushing , the woods 2 very small holes on body

[kd]

The problem with starting more than one thread on the same subject is the information gets lost when you don't actually get to read all of the responses.  See Larry's response #6 in your other thread  (Took apart the Wood's Platinum Bushing Lifter) where he gave the answer to the same question. 

I think you'll agree that as long is the engine is running the lifter is bleeding oil.  No need to pour copious amounts on the roller of 4 lifters that have fine tolerances between the components.  It will just drain into the crankcase adding to any existing sump oil and that is not necessarily a good thing.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,120724.0.html

[Ohio HD]

But oil is also a cooling agent to the motor parts. So you need enough constant flow to accomplish both lubrication and cooling.

[wfolarry]

Advertising says 0.080 more travel. Does this mean approx 0.280 total?

that's more lifter travel before it hits the anti rotation item,
it's NOT more internal piston travel

and that's a good thing   

That's for the guys that have big cams. Stock type lifters will hit the tappet cuff when you get somewhere over .600 lift. Don't remember the exact #.

[itsafatboy]

The problem with starting more than one thread on the same subject is the information gets lost when you don't actually get to read all of the responses.  See Larry's response #6 in your other thread  (Took apart the Wood's Platinum Bushing Lifter) where he gave the answer to the same question. 

I think you'll agree that as long is the engine is running the lifter is bleeding oil.  No need to pour copious amounts on the roller of 4 lifters that have fine tolerances between the components.  It will just drain into the crankcase adding to any existing sump oil and that is not necessarily a good thing.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,120724.0.html

sorry about to many posts wont happen again just was not thinking

[Hilly13]

Been a pretty good thread(s), I was about to order another set of 850's but the bushing lifters have got me thinking.

[kd]

But oil is also a cooling agent to the motor parts. So you need enough constant flow to accomplish both lubrication and cooling.

    However, too much flow ending up in the sump has a similar extra heat effect with other not so wonderful complications such as too much hot oil overwhelming the system. (Think piston oilers that are leaking.) I expect plenty of oil escapes from the lifter bores to wet the cams and gears down for that purpose.  Much like the primary chain case, there's a real oil storm happening in there.

[Ohio HD]

Much like the primary chain case, there's a real oil storm happening in there.

And that's how everything gets oiled. You get a misted environment. 

[itsafatboy]

so the misting environment and the small holes on the body keep the bushing in the roller always riding on oil? this is the part i was wondering about since no needle bearings. just wondering if there is a flow to the bushing at all times sou ds like it doesn't need that 

[60Gunner]

Something to think about. These lifters are nothing new. They're also cheaper to make. I would think if they were better AND cheaper, even the Moco, would have been using them long ago given their propensity to cheap out.
I'll stick with what works. But good luck.

[JSD]

One would think less friction with rollers than a bush

[60Gunner]

One would think less friction with rollers than a bush

You're absolutely right. I think you'll see more cam lobe wear too. They have their place but not in a street bike.
Unless you're doing 6000rpm launches all the time.

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/quick-tech-differences-bushed-needle-roller-lifters/

[Hilly13]

It's true they are not new, Isky are very proud of theirs, they have them for HD's, I don't know anyone that runs them, you can't discount advances in metallurgy, knowledge is built off what came before, it comes down to being able to keep an oil film between the load surfaces, have Woods figured it out? We will see.

[60Gunner]

It's true they are not new, Isky are very proud of theirs, they have them for HD's, I don't know anyone that runs them, you can't discount advances in metallurgy, knowledge is built off what came before, it comes down to being able to keep an oil film between the load surfaces, have Woods figured it out? We will see.

Keeping a layer of oil there involves higher oil pressure. Way higher. It's why even a lot of race teams aren't using them. They don't want bigger oil pumps eating up HP or excessive oil dripping on to the crankshaft. Its why some run tunnels.
I'm not sure there's anything for woods to figure out.
It's also been noted synthetic is not the best oil for them. A conventional or a blend is better for the shock load and for staying put.
As for advances in metals, the same is true for the steel used in needle bearings. How many failures do you hear about in street engines where bearings are dropping out unless they're not getting ANY oil or being abused?
If they were best here someone besides Bobby Woods would've come out with them by now. Topline especially. They went to great lenghs to design a lifter especially for HDs long ago. They would've designed and sold their own bushed lifter before making them for Woods.
These will soon die a slow death here. Especially given the price woods is selling them for when they cost less to make than needle bearing lifters. But that's what happens when there's another mouth to feed and you don't buy direct from the manufacturer... In this case Topline  AKA Johnson Hylifts  which is what Larry sells here.
Just no good reason to use any other lifter. I won't even get into how they're designed.
Bobby Woods is a business man like any other looking to make a buck on something some will buy into. Simple as that.

Unless you have valve control issues and run ridiculously high spring pressures, bounce off the rev limiter all the time, or do high rpm launchers needle bearing lifters will last longer and so will your cam lobes. They require far less oil too. Oil that ends up in the sump I might add. Do we really need more sumping issues and crankshafts swimming in more oil?
All things you need to think about and be aware of before jumping on something new because it sounds good in theory or because of who sells them.
I know I won't even think about running these and I do bounce off the liimiter occasionally and run a built engine with high lift cams and higher than stock spring pressures. Not high enough to take out my needle bearing lifters tho.


https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/columns/09-01-2021/make-case-bushed-lifters-vs-needle-bearing-lifters#:~:text=When%20everything%27s%20properly%20controlled%2C%20needle,will%20with%20a%20bushed%20lifter.

[Hilly13]

But what if it's porosity that solves it 60, what if 😁

[60Gunner]

But what if it's porosity that solves it 60, what if 😁

As far as maintaining the layer of oil necessary? Or the need for it? Not quite clear which it is you're getting at?

[60Gunner]

so the misting environment and the small holes on the body keep the bushing in the roller always riding on oil? this is the part i was wondering about since no needle bearings. just wondering if there is a flow to the bushing at all times sou ds like it doesn't need that 

Actually it DOES need that. Way more than a needle bearing roller. They also require constantly keeping track of lash as an indicator of wear.
The only plus is when failure occurs it doesn't send hardened steal needles thru the pump and everywhere else. But they are much more prone to wear under normal operating conditions even. As much as 3 to 4 times faster and take 5 more HP to spin the wheel.
Unless I'm missing something, the more I think about it the worse I think they are. Think about the low oil pressure at idle. Cold starts. And the possibilities of that bushing not getting the oil it needs at idle or that wheel not spinning at all coming on and off the ramps and skids. Like the wheel of an airplane touching down on the runway. It takes more force to spin it in a bushing.

I'm open to hearing how this is being addressed but so far the only thing I'm hearing here is if Bobby woods is selling them they must be good and that's not good enough for me. Sorry.

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/bearings-vs-bushings-the-great-roller-lifter-debate-explored/

[Hilly13]

60 I don't think many on this forum will run out and buy something just because Bobby Woods makes it..... having said that I have run one of his cams and it did what he said it would....it's easy to find articles on the internet that will support a view point....I don't actually have a take on these bushing lifters other than as an interested observer....I've had the top of the pile direct shot lifter go south, caught it before it grenaded thankfully, I would not call my engine max effort by any means.
Link to an article by Nolan Jamora of Isky fame.
https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/sponsored-content/09-14-2022/isky-bushing-roller-lifters-truth-whole-truth-and-nothing

[Ohio HD]

Good article Hilly.