1929 Harley Engine Identification

[FXSTS89]

Hey all you vintage numbers experts.  I am trying to more accurately identify a Harley owned by a late uncle in 1935.  He has referred to it as a 1929, 74 c.i. 2-cam which is cool but the motor number he has written is 29JDC-11-826.  When I refer to model and engine numbers in The Encyclopedia of the Harley-Davidson by Henshaw and Kerr, this format doesn't make total sense.  There is no 'H' in the number although the book refers to a possible production cycle of 'C'.  Looking at the photos, there are the 1929-only twin headlights but not the twin exhausts.  These photos were from 1937 so it is possible that the original exhaust was replaced.  Can anyone shed some light on this bike?  I wish I knew what ever happened to it.  Thanks.

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[Fugawee]

First of all...I am far from a Vintage HD Expert.
I have been in the process of re-storing a 1919 HD Model "J" for way too many years now.
Over the years I have accumulated many HD Books referring to the "early" days.
As well as reprints of the OEM Factory Service and Parts Manuals from 1911-1930.
You triggered My interest with Your question.
Looking in My Books, and Manuals; as well as on-line...I only see a 1928 JDC.
According to what I have read, the "C" in JDC stands for "Bobber", or "Custom".
I do not see that same info for a 1929.  Meaning the "C".  Plenty of JD's and JDH's.

This is the VIN/ID Number on My 1919...L19A670, for an example...only 7 vs. 10 Letters/Numbers like Yours.
The "L" stands for Generator/Electric Model.
The "19" is the Model Year.
The "A" states that it is a 3 Speed Tranny with New Clutch that was introduced Mid 1919 and used until 1929.
The "670" is the Production Number.

I'm not sure if in fact there was a 1929 JDC Model.
Not to say that there wasn't...I'm just not seeing it in any of My Literature.

I have had numerous questions regarding My 1919.  Still do...
When I start banging My head trying to get answers, parts, etc; I have found that this other particular Site has answered just about all of them for Me.
The AMCA.
Antique Motorcycle Club of America.
You have to be a Member on the Site to ask or answer questions, which means that there is a Members Dues Fee to participate.
Not a lot, but worth it in My opinion.
And that is not to take anything away from the Members here on HTT.
They have answered many questions for Me as well on Various HD's.

Good Luck with getting some Better Answers.
You may even want to consider calling, or E-mailing HD in Milwaukee with Your question(s).
Or possibly "Wheels thru Time" in North Carolina.

[HogMike]

Probably a 29 JDC/H with bent forks! LOL
Modified over the years with different paint, exhaust, gas tank decals and who knows what. Nice that it still has the 2 headlights. Too bad no toolbox.

 

[HogMike]

Yup, 2cam.

[FXSTS89]

Probably a 29 JDC/H with bent forks! LOL
Modified over the years with different paint, exhaust, gas tank decals and who knows what. Nice that it still has the 2 headlights. Too bad no toolbox.

 

Thanks HogMike.  I hope the bike might have been from the C production group for the JDH model.  It is possible that the number 29JDC-11-826 was actually 29JDC-H-826.  Good eye on the bent forks and no tool box.  The fork was eventually straightened and a cylindrical tool box was later installed over the fender.  Would the tank graphics have been a perimeter stripe and just Harley- (above) Davidson with no other graphics?

[Speeding Big Twin]

I am trying to more accurately identify a Harley owned by a late uncle in 1935. He has referred to it as a 1929, 74 c.i. 2-cam which is cool but the motor number he has written is 29JDC-11-826. When I refer to model and engine numbers in The Encyclopedia of the Harley-Davidson by Henshaw and Kerr, this format doesn't make total sense. There is no 'H' in the number although the book refers to a possible production cycle of 'C'. Looking at the photos, there are the 1929-only twin headlights

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Twin headlights were not 1929-only. They were also used for 1930 models.

Here's an illustration of a 29 two cam from The Legend Begins.






But the gear cover in the illustration doesn't look like the gear cover in your photo? Also the bike in your photo appears to have a cover over the oil control? A cover over the oil control was featured in The Harley-Davidson Enthusiast for August 1928 which announced 1929 models.

I have photos of one 28JDC serial number (SN) and photos of three 29s including this one.







Regarding the letter C after JD, here's what it says in my 26–39 H-D parts catalog. 







For 1929 general production models the SNs began at 1000. SNs below 1000 were usually reserved for specials such as racing bikes and certain other machines not available to the public. Therefore if the SN ended with 11826 it would make sense but it would not make sense if it ended with 826.

You mentioned The Encyclopedia of the H-D by Henshaw and Kerr referring to a possible production cycle of C. What does that book say about the letter C? Thanks.
Eric

[pauly]

No expert here, but could it be a JD?
https://bikez.com/motorcycles/harley-davidson_model_jd_1929.php

Thanks
Pauly

[FXSTS89]

Twin headlights were not 1929-only. They were also used for 1930 models.

But the gear cover in the illustration doesn't look like the gear cover in your photo? Also the bike in your photo appears to have a cover over the oil control? A cover over the oil control was featured in The Harley-Davidson Enthusiast for August 1928 which announced 1929 models.

Regarding the letter C after JD, here's what it says in my 26–39 H-D parts catalog. 







For 1929 general production models the SNs began at 1000. SNs below 1000 were usually reserved for specials such as racing bikes and certain other machines not available to the public. Therefore if the SN ended with 11826 it would make sense but it would not make sense if it ended with 826.

You mentioned The Encyclopedia of the H-D by Henshaw and Kerr referring to a possible production cycle of C. What does that book say about the letter C? Thanks.
Eric


Eric, Thanks for the headlight clarification, the Henshaw book also shows photos of the 1930 JD with the dual lights.  I also want to clarify that this reference I am using is the only one I have at the moment that provides any details on the bikes and the information provided is surely up for debate!  Given that, this is a list shown under the 1929 model, referencing a 'C' production group.  As I type this, I wonder what exactly it refers to, maybe not engines but complete bikes, there's no explanation: 

Production
A - 197
AA - 26
B - 1,592
BA - 404
C - 1,570
D - 4,513
DL - 2,343
F - 191
FD - 73
J - 2,886
JD - 10,182
FD - 232
J - 3,749
TOTAL - 23,977

At the same time, ahead of the 'Production' numbers, the book lists the various 1929 model variations and includes a model 29C but with a 30.5 c.i. flathead single.  That concurs with 29C engine shown in your parts list.

I wondered about the gear cover too.  Unfortunately, I don't have a decent side photo with better resolution for that cover.  As I look again at the left side sheet metal chain cover on my uncle's bike, it looks more like one shown on the 1928 model than the 1929 model shown in the Henshaw book.  A flatter style with more sheet metal coverage and the embossed diamond pattern in the center.

So, the bike appears to have been modified, whichever year it is.  Maybe a 1928 model with a 1929 truck engine?  Where were Harley commercial truck engines used, and would they have been the 'fancy' 2-cam design?

Thanks,
Mark

[JohnCA58]

I showed that picture to my buddy who had a 1929 2 cam bike,  he said the two cam gear cover had a donut stamped on it like the picture post 5,  he has done the Cannonball Motorcycle race a few times. he wish he never sold it, can't touch for less than 50K now. maybe that's why he has 31 antique motorcycles now

He did start telling the letters and numbers about them, LOL went in one ear and out the other, and a couple things that were only done on the 29 model year.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Eric, Thanks for the headlight clarification, the Henshaw book also shows photos of the 1930 JD with the dual lights.

You're welcome. The Henshaw book shows a 1930 JD? I'd like to see how Henshaw got that because AFAIK the J-series (J, JD etc) ended with 1929 models. For 1930 the Big Twins were the V-series.

I agree a lot of info is up for debate. I found the Henshaw book online and I'll pick up a copy next week from a local public library. I may have even read it before. Many years ago I joined a lot of public libraries and also the Battye Library which is the state library here in West Aust. I read every H-D book they had although I can't remember them all now. What I do remember though is that a lot of the info was no good.

Thanks for replying re the 'C' production group. For 1929 the C was indeed a Flathead single and it's on this order blank from Legend.







Here are 1929 production figures from Legend and you'll notice some are the same as those provided by Henshaw but some are not. However, just because these figures are from H-D does not mean they are precise and the book itself says on page 198 that they are NOT to be regarded as totally accurate. According to Bruce Palmer the amounts were compiled in 1978 by Midge Kimbell who was William H Davidson's secretary for many years but when Palmer spoke to her some time later she could not remember which way the numbers were counted. Kimbell did make it clear however that the figures were based on only the records that could be found and that some were missing. She also said it was a quick project and the amounts were not double checked. But do the figures represent model year or calendar year and are any of them exact? I doubt that anybody knows for certain.







Page 215 from Legend lists 1929 models but even these model descriptions are NOT to be regarded as totally accurate. Also notice the list is incomplete. 







In your photo the gear cover appears to be the 'standard' type as opposed to the type used for a two-cam. I have Jerry Hatfield's 1903–45 book and he provides close-ups of the different types. Also Hatfield says the two-cam exhaust valve springs were uncovered and that is consistent with the illustration of the two-cam I posted from Legend. But in your photo those springs are covered.

I can't tell much about the outer primary cover. Apparently the letters H-D were in the centre of at least some covers in the mid-to-late-1910s and also for 1920–24 but I don't see the letters on the primary cover of the 1925–26 models in Legend. I'm not sure about 1927–29. I can't tell if the cover in your photo has the letters or not.     

Quote: Where were Harley commercial truck engines used, and would they have been the 'fancy' 2-cam design?
I imagine when H-D referred to a commercial truck engine they meant it was for a bike with a 'package truck' attached?
As per the order blank I posted, the Big Twin range for 1929 included Models J, JS, JD and JDS. But two-cams were above those and one of them was even described as a 'Dreadnought' and as the 'Grand Daddy of all super 74s' in The Harley-Davidson Enthusiast for August 1928 which announced 1929 models so I don't think a bike with a package truck would have had a two-cam engine. And there's also the SN to consider because your uncle wrote JDC even though he referred to the bike as a '2-cam'.

NB: for 1929 there was also a Model JH (61ci two-cam) although it isn't on that order blank. Sometimes there was more than one blank per model year so perhaps the 29JH was on another blank? 
Eric

[FXSTS89]

Eric,
My mistake on the 1930 models.  I see that the 1930 model has the dual headlights but not the JD engine, you are right on them being 30D and 30V (Henshaw)

Quote:  I imagine when H-D referred to a commercial truck engine they meant it was for a bike with a 'package truck' attached?
As per the order blank I posted, the Big Twin range for 1929 included Models J, JS, JD and JDS. But two-cams were above those and one of them was even described as a 'Dreadnought' and as the 'Grand Daddy of all super 74s' in The Harley-Davidson Enthusiast for August 1928 which announced 1929 models so I don't think a bike with a package truck would have had a two-cam engine. And there's also the SN to consider because your uncle wrote JDC even though he referred to the bike as a '2-cam'.

Unfortunately I don't have a serial number for the bike.  I also agree with your doubt that a package truck would have had a 2-cam engine, that seems like overkill.  The Henshaw book is a big book, thick and in a page format larger than what my desktop scanner can do in one shot.  Otherwise I would post some of the images and data.  The reader also has to be aware of which data applies to which photos because data and photos are just strung together.  Example: page 140 starts with the 1929 engine ranges, shows prices and the production numbers.  Immediately next to that is a photo of a 1930 bike (with caption) followed by a continuation of the 1929 Production numbers, Colours and very basic specifications.  Next and still on page 140 the 1930 model data starts.  Previous to all that on page 139, the 1928 bike data is followed by photos of both 1928 and 1929 bikes and the photos of the 1929 bikes are taken with an angled perspective and are not very usable for detailed investigation.  Grrr..

[Speeding Big Twin]

Today from a public library I brought home the book by Henshaw and Kerr. As you indicated not much attention was paid to its construction and checking of details leaves a lot to be desired. For example and as you may have noticed at least one page says 28 was the last year for the J but at least two other pages say 29. You and I know 29 is right but many other people won't know which year is correct.
 
I agree the angled perspective of the 1929 bikes makes the photos not very usable for detailed investigation and I don't know why the photographer took them. On page 139 one of the captions says 1929 was the first year for the Forty-Five and I agree but the bike being referred to looks like a single-cylinder?
 
Re the photo of the 1930 model on page 140 the caption says the bike has twin headlights and a four-tube muffler but I see no muffler in that photo. And for 1930 models I think the muffler was two-tube anyway and not four-tube.

Plenty of other captions also have problems. For example did you read the two on page 27?
A caption on page 28 refers to the alleged VLU on page 29. VLU? Perhaps the author meant VLH? And speaking of VLH page 146 says 1936 was the first year of the 80ci SV twin but I disagree. Instead I'll say 1935. The point is that when a book has many obvious problems it indicates the authors know very little.

Another problem is the authors used some info from elsewhere but without checking it. For example notice at least three alleged amounts of WLAs for WW II: 88,000; over 88,000; and nearly 90,000. I've read those alleged figures in several other publications and also on websites but even the lowest is too high. The authors say the true figure is a mystery but that only indicates that they didn't know how to find out what really happened. Why not, given the proper info has been in the public domain since as far back as 1998. This error and certain others suggest the authors did very little research of their own and instead used info found elsewhere, with no idea how bad that info was.
Eric

[HogMike]

I would tend to agree. At the SoCal dealer meetings in the late 70's early 80's
I had the chance to meet a bunch of the dealers. Asking questions about what they remembered from the early years and what was on their order sheets was always foggy at best, there was always alcohol involved at the bar!
Being the colt in the stable I think they just tried to be nice.
When I rescued and restored my 1949 FL with springer forks and knucklehead style sheet metal I had more than one "expert" tell me it was all wrong until I showed them the order sheet! LOL
"Experts" who wrote books later on got a lot of information from mentioned dealers and what they remembered. Not always correct.

My good friend here is 91 and had many JD's back in the day. His memory is still pretty good and he is my "go to" guy for bikes in that era.
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[FXSTS89]

Thanks Eric for your analysis of the Henshaw and Kerr book.  It is unfortunate that an 'encyclopedia' is so full of inconsistencies, resulting in essentially misleading the uninformed enthusiast like myself!

Any additional insight into my search here is appreciated but I am okay moving forward with the information you have all have shared so far and can call it good, while still not knowing exactly what the bike was.  I am writing a story related to the bike and wanted to get my facts regarding the model right but will work with what you have given me.  Thanks and safe riding everyone!
Mark

[Speeding Big Twin]

Some publications are a nightmare and the more I read the book the worse it gets. Below are some more problems but there are countless others.
 
Page 12 says the same basic design of forks was used by the company until 1947 but page 109 says it was standard Harley equipment until 1948. And depending on how some text on page 32 is interpreted, page 33 could indicate the springer was dropped in 48 or 49 although both those possibilities are wrong.     
Page 35 says the springer on the bike on pages 34-35 marks it out as an early (1948) Panhead but of course the springer on that bike doesn't mean it's a 48 because a springer was available for 49 Pans if a customer wanted it. The book even contradicts itself about 48 because pages 154-155 mention 'P' (springer) models for 1949.

Do the authors know when the alleged basic design of spring forks first appeared? Page 105 says H-D had been using it since 1908 but page 191 contradicts that by indicating 1905 even though page 108 says it was designed by Bill Harley in 1907.

And while I'm on springer models it's clear the authors don't understand the difference between a Heritage Springer and a Springer Softail. (See pages 190-191 and others.)
Also the book says the bike on page 191 is a Springer Softail but it has a wide glide front end.

Page 20 says 1300 of the V-series for 1930 had to be completely rebuilt but that amount is ridiculous. The true figure is 2000 and there are several ways to confirm it including H-D Shop Dope 50 dated November 11, 1929.

Page 31 says the three Knuckleheads shown all date from 1938/39 but at least two of them may be 1937 models judging by the R-H side of their oil tanks.

A caption on page 44 says the Panhead motor on the opposite page is an Electra Glide and that should mean it's a 65 model. But it doesn't look 65 to me and instead appears to be 63 or 64.

Page 45 indicates Big Twins didn't have electric start until the year after they received 12-volt electrics. But the truth is that both things for Big Twins arrived for the same model year (1965). Maybe the authors were confused by what happened with 1964 model Servi-Cars?
   
Some of the ranges are lacking a few machines. For example page 143 has the alleged range for 1933 but compare it with this model layout sheet. NB: it's possible even this layout sheet may not include every available 1933 model.
Eric