'61 Panhead ???

[twincamzz]

Been looking at this '61 Panhead for a week or two now. Ad says this bike had same owner for last 20 years until his death. Kids want to sell & I'm interested. Fairly new to Pans, but not to Harleys ( mostly Evos & TCs...sorry.)

Looking at the pics it appears that the front drum brake is on the wrong side of bike to me, but what do I know ? What say you Pan folks ?


I can see the rear brake has been changed out for a disc brake/ rotor which is okay with me as this will be a rider if I get it. Ad also says lots of original parts...I'm hoping the front fender & outer primary cover is in that pile. lol.

[CraigArizona85248]

The bike is definitely a "bitsa"... meaning it's made up of "bits of and bits of that".  There is nothing wrong with that, but it does affect the value.  The front end looks likes it's off a late 60's shovelhead.  That would explain the right side drum brake and the nacell.  Also, the rear brake is some sort of later year disk.  The gas tanks also look larger then anything I've seen on a stock panhead, but that's a little harder to tell in the photo.  Most bikes of this era are made up of pieces from many years.  Looks like it would be a fun bike to make into a rider.

-Craig

[twincamzz]

Appreciate the advice Craig. As far as the nacelle goes, I was thinking that was the correct style for 1961.

[JamLazyAss]

The front end is a 68 to 71, but who cares?
It's a great scooter. Buy it and don't look back... 

[CraigArizona85248]

Appreciate the advice Craig. As far as the nacelle goes, I was thinking that was the correct style for 1961.

Hey... your right, they did use a nacelle on the later panheads.  I had to grab my picture book (Palmer's) and it looks like they added the nacelle in 1960.  I also agree with JLA... none of those things being "incorrect" would make me walk away from the bike.  If it's something you want, go for it!

-Craig

[jellero]

what he said... the tank probably isn't '61. the insignia isn't. just ride it. j

[stroker800]

  The good thing is its a pan head!!!! Even if incorrect its still WAAYYY cooler than any TC...You have too decide if you want a cool rider built to suit you or a correct show bike?? Either way is good,,,its a panhead...Buy it if you like it,,,
good luck and let us know what happens...
Dave

[ModelABob]

What's the asking price on the Pan? 

AMF/Ride & Shoot Safe

[panjs]

The headlight nacelle started about 1960 I think, my '61 has it.
If the price is right for it's condition and what you want it for go for it.

Nothing sounds or looks like a Pan and it's a hoot explaining it's a kick start!!

Jim

[Speeding Big Twin]

twincamzz, I’m not trying to be a smarty but I’d like to ask a few questions:

1. Have you checked the engine serial number for authenticity? And both crankcase (belly) numbers? 
2. Do you know if it’s a 1958â€"1964 style frame? Or is it 1965-later style? I can’t be sure from the photos.

The Glide front drum brake was on the right-hand side for 1969â€"1971. Under the left-hand tank there appears to be a fuel tap: a male tap was used in that location for 1967â€"1974; and a female tap was used there for 1975-later.     Eric
   

[twincamzz]

Actually, I haven't even been able to see the bike in person. Been trying for 4 days now to get ahold of the seller. E-mail & phone call have went unanswered.  

Edit : Finally got to talk to the seller today. The panhead was her Dad's. However, she knows very little about it. She did say there was a front & rear fender & some other parts that go with it. I get to go see it next Tuesday if all goes as planned. You guys brought up some good things to look for. I was aware to look for the crankcase ##s, but didn't realize there were others to look for as well. Can someone enlighten me as to the "belly #s" ? Would they be directly under the case where the crank sits or where ?

I'll be the first to admit I don't have any experience with these Pans, but hey, ya got start somewhere.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Crankcase numbers and belly numbers are different names for the same thing and they are also called line-bore numbers and confidential numbers. They are located on the bottom of each case near the forward outer edges.

If that’s a 1961 Panhead engine the belly numbers should be similar to one of the following examples: 161-1234(5); or 160-1234(5). The first character indicates engine size: 74 cubic inches. The next two indicate the year the cases were line-bored/machined: 1961; or 1960. The last four or five represent the sequential machining of the cases. If the belly numbers match each other completely that means the cases were machined as a matching pair at the factory. But it’s possible they won’t match and the cases could even be from two different years, depending on what’s happened over time.

The serial number should be stamped on a raised boss and the format should be similar to 61FL1234. H-D used a style of even/odd coding system for 1960-1969 and you'll notice for odd years such as 1961 that when there are only four numeric characters in the sequential portion then the first of those four should be an odd number, not an even number. If there are five numeric characters in the sequential portion then the first two of those five, when taken together as one number, should read as an odd number─for example, 61FL11234. But not 61FL12345.

In the first partial example below notice the 6 in the year portion has a round back but the 6 in the sequential portion has a straight back. That’s okay, although the rule may not always apply. In the second example notice the 1 in the sequential portion is more pronounced than the 1 in the year portion of both examples. Several in my collection are like that and it appears to be okay for 1961 Panheads. You’ll also notice there are two different possibilities regarding engines: FL; and FLH (higher compression, different cam etc).

If possible, post a partial photo of the serial number. I’ll post some info regarding different frames later today.     Eric

[twincamzz]

When I get to go look at the bike next week I'll post the ##s. Thanks for your input 

If possible, post a partial photo of the serial number. I’ll post some info regarding different frames later today.     Eric

[65panrydr]

the frame is a 65 or later as the frame goes mostly parallel to the ground behind the tanks under the seat. Earlier frames continued down at same angle as backbone under tank.
If ya like the price buy it, you will never regret owning a Pan.

[Speeding Big Twin]

The first Panhead swingarm frame was for 1958. It remained the same style through 1964 and all are Duo-Glide frames. Sometimes they are called a step-down, drop-saddle, drop-seat or drop-link frame and those four references all relate to the frame’s two upper rear cast/forged sections. The photos below demonstrate the differences pointed out by 65panrydr and you’ll notice in the first one that the castings angle down to meet the frame tubes. The other photo shows the change for 1965 with the castings going straight ahead and the frame tubes coming straight back. That was the last year for the Panhead and the first year for the Electra-Glide.

   

All Panhead frames and all 1966â€"1968 Shovelhead frames originally had a steering head lock. And although the lock has sometimes been removed, the machined boss for it sometimes remains. The 1969 Shovelhead frame did not have a steering head lock but an unmachined boss for it was present.
   
There is usually a manufacturing date code stamped on the frame top engine mount but it’ll probably be hidden by the tanks. Some 1960s frames had extra ID characters stamped on the left side of the steering head. If they are present they usually consist of one capital letter followed by either three or four numbers but they are small and may be hard to detect.

Big Twin frames 1970-later usually have a VIN boss on the right-hand side of the steering head although some have been removed. Big Twins 1958â€"1972 employed a couple of different styles of round swingarm and then a square swingarm was introduced for 1973.     Eric

[greybeard_541]

I was just talking with a well respected expert (world reknowned) yesterday on the topic of belly numbers. They WERE strictly to identify the case pairs on return from line-honing in case they were seperated before assembly at the factory. ANY case halves subsequently line bored (honed) since are matching regardless of the belly numbers.

He DID say that the latest fad or craze is the altering of the belly numbers to match. Since they have NOTHING to do with the titling of the cases it's just cosmetic.

In other words, if the registration numbers are good, don't sweat the rest a lot.

Hope it helps,
Greybeard

[twincamzz]

Keep it comin' guys. As I said, I'm new to these Pans & appreciate all the info I can get. 

Timmy

[Speeding Big Twin]

Greybeard, maybe I should explain something I posted at reply #11: ‘But it’s possible they won't match and the cases could even be from two different years, depending on what’s happened over time.’ When I said they won't match I was referring to the possibility of the belly numbers not matching each other. And I realise case halves with non-matching belly numbers can be subsequently machined as a pair.

You stated: ‘In other words, if the registration numbers are good, don’t sweat the rest a lot.’ Some people may agree with you. I don’t. And here’s one example why:
Earlier this year on another forum a guy posted one photo of his Harley. When he bought it he knew some parts were aftermarket but he believed the bike had a 1948 Panhead engine. However, the right-hand crankcase appeared to be mid/late-1952 or later so I asked the question. The guy contacted me and I supplied relevant info for both case halves. He checked, finding a 1952 belly number on the right-hand case and a 1951 belly number on the left case. Yet the serial number began with 48 FL.

He asked how all that could happen so I explained a few possibilities. Obviously he was not happy (with the seller) but at least he now knew he hadn’t bought a bike with a 1948 engine.     Eric

[twincamzz]

Update : Turns out the bike has been in storage since the girl's Dad died back in 2006. At this point I'm not certain how it was stored, other than that it has been in a garage. I figure the battery will be dead as a doornail & the carb will be gummed up. Pretty sure I'll need a new battery, change the oil,clean the carb, drain & fill with new gas in the tank ( hope for no rust), check points, flush / inspect brake system ( rear is a disc brake ), & check the tires out good.

I don't expect that I will get lucky & this thing start when I go look at it next week, but plan on at least kicking the motor over to make certain it is not locked up. Any other advice or tips y'all want to share with me ?

[fourthgear]

If all the numbers are good & its a good deal , just take her home & disassemble & inspect all components ,its what I do . If its been stored incorrectly ,it may start ,but you could do more damage then if you disassembled ,inspected & cleaned and or repaired as needed.Then you can ride your heart out with no worries, but that's just me .

[Speeding Big Twin]

Tim, have a look in the oil tank but don’t be surprised if there ain’t much in there. If the engine hasn’t been turned over since 2006 the oil may have drained into the cases and some may spew out from the breather upon start-up. The breather usually runs into the primary and drips oil on the chain. But your first photo appears to show a belt pulley at the front of the engine and if it's got a primary belt drive then you may find a breather hose between the inner primary cover and the left case. And it may have been directed toward the rear.

At reply #14 I mentioned extra ID characters appearing on some 1960s frames so here’s a photo showing the first two (B5) of five characters on a 1963 frame as an example. The chart is from Jammer Cycle and you’ll see the letter B can indicate 1962â€"1964. However, you’ll also notice Jammer advises the chart is to be used only as a guide. There are a couple of obvious problems with the chart and I’ve emailed Jammer on two separate occasions but have received no response. The extra ID is sometimes also found on the fork stop on the left side of the lower triple clamp and on the forward face of the transmission case. But the three sets of characters do not necessarily match each other even on complete bikes that remain unaltered from their original factory assembly.     Eric

[twincamzz]

If possible, post a partial photo of the serial number. I’ll post some info regarding different frames later today.     Eric

Okay, here is a partial serial number 61FLH71XX

Got her home yesterday. She's got a few problems, but nothing that really surprises me given the age.

Oil tank is empty so I assume the oil is in the cases.

Inside of exhaust pipes is covered in a light film of oil. Not certain what this is indicative of...possibly bad valve guides, seals ?

Tranny drain plug appears to have been stripped & is now covered in a layer of what appears to be JB Weld. Are oversize/ self tapping drain plugs available ?

Just for the heck of it I hooked a battery up ( already had 12v system on bike) & tried to start her. Appears that she's getting fuel as the plugs fouled out quickly. Cleaned plugs & then decided to check points & condenser. Condenser wire was not hooked to points, so put that back & still not certain if I'm getting fire. Is there a way to check for fire right at the points? Just pull them apart & see spark or what ? Stupid question maybe, but it's been a long time since I messed with points.

Sure there will be more questions as I get into this old girl more. Really appreciate any & all help you guys might be able to offer.

Timmy

[Scooter]

Self threading bolt/plugs are available at any car parts place.  Be careful.

Take the  spark plugs out, keep the plug wires on them, and ground them with clamps, vice grips, or have some one hold them to a ground.
Turn on the ignition and, with your finger or screwdriver, open and close the points (or kick it through, which is easy since the plugs are out).
You should see spark.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Tim, having a 7 as the first of four sequential characters is consistent with 1961 and I've posted one from an FL for comparison with yours. Notice the vertical serif at top left and the style of curved back.     Eric