Thundermax cough when cold / updated on post 7

[x52gnr]

 I have read several threads were during cold start with a Thundermax ecm the bike will cough / spit till warmed up then run fine. I have read where maps were reloaded and iac relearned etc and it would go away only to show up again after a while.I have the same problem with my 07 Ultra. Has anyone found a fix for this yet?

[Paniolo]

Mine did the same thing along with other issues. Here is what I did and it seems to work. I cleared the IAC and the Learned Fuel Adjustments and then reloaded the map. In other words the whole thing is starting fresh. I can't say it will work for you, but it seems to have worked for me. I rode the bike today and not a single cough or pop.

Maybe this analysis is wrong, but for the longest time I never wanted to clear the Learned Fuel because I always believed that that was how the ecm learned how I rode. I'm guessing all my loading and unloading of different maps and map tweaking must have confused it and that caused some of the problems. But I could be wrong.

[x52gnr]

Mine did the same thing along with other issues. Here is what I did and it seems to work. I cleared the IAC and the Learned Fuel Adjustments and then reloaded the map. In other words the whole thing is starting fresh. I can't say it will work for you, but it seems to have worked for me. I rode the bike today and not a single cough or pop.

Maybe this analysis is wrong, but for the longest time I never wanted to clear the Learned Fuel because I always believed that that was how the ecm learned how I rode. I'm guessing all my loading and unloading of different maps and map tweaking must have confused it and that caused some of the problems. But I could be wrong.

I have tried this, a week ago as a matter of fact. was great till yesterday. Started to cough a couple times. also did it this morning. when warm its great. Several others on this board have complained of this, reloaded the map etc and would go away only to come back again.....This Thundermax although a great unit is beggining to wear on me with all the tinkering I seem to need to do. I am thinking of putting the factory ecm back on and ieds or something simple. Dont know if they will work with having changed cams though. I just want to install and forget.....

[redmtrckl]

Start with a cold engine as with sitting over night.
Clear all the IAC learned offsets, learned fuel offsets etc and re-load the map you want.
Re-initialize the module, 3 times on/off.
Start bike and let it go completely thru the warm up to 285 deg head temp.
Bike will spit and sputter some while doing this and then smooth out.
If the sputtering returns, call Zippers.

[x52gnr]

Start with a cold engine as with sitting over night.
Clear all the IAC learned offsets, learned fuel offsets etc and re-load the map you want.
Re-initialize the module, 3 times on/off.
Start bike and let it go completely thru the warm up to 285 deg head temp.
Bike will spit and sputter some while doing this and then smooth out.
If the sputtering returns, call Zippers.

  Yep, thats what I did last weekend. I guess this weekend I will send them a copy of my current map and see if they can tell whats happening....

[Paniolo]

Start with a cold engine as with sitting over night.
Clear all the IAC learned offsets, learned fuel offsets etc and re-load the map you want.
Re-initialize the module, 3 times on/off.
Start bike and let it go completely thru the warm up to 285 deg head temp.
Bike will spit and sputter some while doing this and then smooth out.
If the sputtering returns, call Zippers.

Better yet, send them a copy of the monitoring run.

Keep us posted.

Mark

  Yep, thats what I did last weekend. I guess this weekend I will send them a copy of my current map and see if they can tell whats happening....

[Eleft36]

I have read several threads were during cold start with a Thundermax ecm the bike will cough / spit till warmed up then run fine. I have read where maps were reloaded and iac relearned etc and it would go away only to show up again after a while.I have the same problem with my 07 Ultra. Has anyone found a fix for this yet?

Go to Module configuration, select basic settings.

"Accel Fuel:
This function is similar to an accelerator pump in a carburetor. As the number increases,
more fuel is delivered to the engine during rapid throttle changes. This setting is pre-set
to optimum specifications during the creation of the base map; yet differences in injector
flow rates, changing closed loop targets, or other variables may require some
adjustment to optimize throttle response. Zipper’s recommends a base setting for Accel
fuel to be a value between 8-14. The Accel Fuel function is meant to be used to
optimize the off-idle throttle response"

see page 81 in Manual.

Al

[x52gnr]

I talked to randy at Zippers and he emailed me the following response.......


A new map has been released, map# 554, which addresses this issue directly. I have attached this map for convenience or you may update your base maps. Please provide feedback for the results.

[Admiral Akbar]

Increase Partial throttle advance each curve a couple degree from 700 - 3000. Since I've done this 0 coughs and no popping through the exhaust.  I could almost make the stock maps I chose cough on demand.. even hot.

Max

[mayor]

Increase Partial throttle advance each curve a couple degree from 700 - 3000. Since I've done this 0 coughs and no popping through the exhaust.  I could almost make the stock maps I chose cough on demand.. even hot.

Max

I agree with Max.   although, I think one might want to be carefull increasing lighter tps (after 14.8 degree) timing too much in the 2.5k-3.3k range. Most of the maps I've seen have plenty of timing in these areas already.  I generally increase timing in all the maps I've done before 14.8 though, the whole way up the rpm scale.  zero popping and no coughing here either. 

[7hogs]

Did you load the MAP in and if yes did it fix it?

[x52gnr]

Did you load the MAP in and if yes did it fix it?

  I did load the map on Saturday and did the IAC auto etc. Rode it the first time today since I have been busy playing with my new V-Rod Muscle.....This am started and idled fine, took it out at lunch and no coughing during warm up. Will be leaving work soon and I will see again during warm-up what happens. So far so good but it did take a good 10 or so cold starts before the problem started happening. Should know for sure by middle of next week or so. Will keep ya posted

[mayor]

if you're still end up getting popping with the new map, try making some changes to your timing as bruce and I mentioned.  Here's a video that explains how to make the timing changes:

Tuning T-max: 1. Zippers Thundermax timing adjustments to limit popping and coughing at lower RPM's

[Paniolo]

if you're still end up getting popping with the new map, try making some changes to your timing as bruce and I mentioned.  Here's a video that explains how to make the timing changes:

Tuning T-max: 1. Zippers Thundermax timing adjustments to limit popping and coughing at lower RPM's

Very interesting, thanks. Is that the ONLY place I should adjust timing?

[mayor]

Very interesting, thanks. Is that the ONLY place I should adjust timing?

that's hard to say for sure without a dyno to measure results.  I personally think that most of the T-max base maps I've seen has too much WOT timing for higher compression builds from 2.5k to 3.5k. I generally retard the main map, then add the timing back in the lighter TPS settings (that may be another video in the series  )   

I personally think that it's a good practice to correct any individul rpm map that has the timing retarded in the light throttle positions (the whole way up to the next RPM past rev limit). 

here's an example of what I'm suggesting:

map 448's individual timing map for 2560rpm looks like this:

see where the timing gets retarded at the lighter TPS settings? I generally level the timing out from the most advanced point the whole way over to 0% tps (although one can never have a 0% TPS).  I then find where the typical idle throttle position is, then advance the timing one degree on the left of that position.  Here's an example of what I'm talking about:


all the individual rpm timing maps on map 448 seem to have the timing being retarded in lighter tps, so I would adjust each one like the example above. 

My brothers bike has very open pipes, so it was very prone to popping.  I ended up adjusting his individual maps like I suggested above, but added yet another degree on the next box past my initial advance. Like this:


I made these changes to each map, from idle up to where the initial pooping started (his was around 2.2k). 

hope this helps,
mayor

[Paniolo]

Mayor,

Thanks. My issue is not so much popping as it is low responsivness at low rpm coming off the line. I'd like to add timing so that it responds quicker in the low band.

Mark

[mayor]

if you follow the advice laid out in the video, you will end up adding timing at every TPS position from 512 to 2048 rpm's since the base timing map affects all the individual maps as well.  If your issue is after 2k, then try increasing the timing a little at the lower % tps areas per rpm map. 

You may also want to adjust your AFR to improve crispness of throttle.  The unaltered maps are generally rather rich at cruise (usually around 13.5:1 depending on base map), and rich cruise will make the bike feel sluggish in my opinion. 

[Admiral Akbar]

The guy really needs to to learn how to use the L function.. If the TPS sets the throttle 14 degrees adn this guy says to advance everthing at 10 to zero. What good does it do? Seems to me that those map cells are not being used.

Max

[mayor]

yea I don't think the guy knows anything about the L function. He's probably a two finger typer too. 

I got the impression by watching the video that the creator of that video was just a fellow that tinkers with stuff and wanted to share his experiences (notice the disclaimer), and I'll bet he's probably not the sharpest tool in the shed either when it comes to tuning.  Although, I think the fellow in the video mentioned that most of the lighter TPS timing area isn't being used (at 5:28 in the video), but if you look at your learned offsets you will see that you occasionally hit some of those boxes (before where your idle throttle position starts). I think he mentioned that since the autone is adjusting them, they must be being seen by the ecm at decel (possibly heavy decels).  I would guess that one would only need to adjust the first 2 boxes to the left of where the throttle plate is typically at idle.  Maybe that fellow is just one of those anal retentive types that likes to make sure that his light tps timing isn't heading backwards downhill regardless of whether the ecm sees that area or not.

I know that on my own personal map I have more timing than what that video shows in that area, but mine is a stock 88" so my corrected compression is much lower than a 95" build (which I believe is what the creator of that video was working on). 

[Admiral Akbar]

but if you look at your learned offsets you will see that you occasionally hit some of those boxes (before where your idle throttle position starts).

The maps I've seen, you might get on cell below where the throttle sits at idle but I'd be that this probably come more from noise in the system than anything else. How else could the TPS be less? High vacuum pulls the throttle blade closed even more?

I think that his adjustment at the lower RPM on the WOT timing did more.. You can do the same thing buy increasing the timing at 10deg to 14-16 deg on the individual RPM maps.. 

So we'll have to wait til this winter for you to build the motor?

Max

[7hogs]

Mayor

Everytime I apply my offsets what it rights to the rear cylinder is to low at decel and it has to re adjust to stop. Is there anyway around this? Also at very very slight throttle I am getting lean surges but not all of the time.

Jim

[Eleft36]

yea I don't think the guy knows anything about the L function. He's probably a two finger typer too.

Mayor,

I appreciate your time and ability and the price is great.

Thanks,

Al

[mayor]

The maps I've seen, you might get on cell below where the throttle sits at idle but I'd be that this probably come more from noise in the system than anything else. How else could the TPS be less? High vacuum pulls the throttle blade closed even more?

I think that his adjustment at the lower RPM on the WOT timing did more.. You can do the same thing buy increasing the timing at 10deg to 14-16 deg on the individual RPM maps.. 

So we'll have to wait til this winter for you to build the motor?

Max

I don't know for sure that those lighter tps areas are seen, but I doubt that the autotune would be indicating they are if they're not.  How the tps is getting there?     I don't know enough on how the idle adjustments are made on efi to speculate, but it could be as simple as vacuum pulling the butterfly shut.  Either way, I think that leveling off the timing in the lighter tps settings (from 14.8 to the left for at least 4 boxes) would be better than having the timing being retarded in those areas since the idle TPS positions that I've seen is generally two boxes or so to the left of 14.8. 

I would agree that someone could raise the light tps timing on the individual maps instead of just raising the whole rpm timing chart.  I see it as six of one half dozen of the other.  The lighter tps settings is the area of concern anyway, since in reality WOT would be hard to achieve at the earlier rpm range. 

I think cams only this winter on my efi. I think when it's time, that bike will only get a boring to you baby build anyway (95" tw26's).    I've got some transmission issues with my FXD, so that's the only major work planned this winter.  We'll see if there's any cash left in my wallet after we (Sonny and I) get that bike running good again. 

Everytime I apply my offsets what it rights to the rear cylinder is to low at decel and it has to re adjust to stop. Is there anyway around this? Also at very very slight throttle I am getting lean surges but not all of the time.

honestly I'm not real sure on how the rear afr works.     I think that it realates to the front cylinder, so if the front one changed...maybe that forces the back one to change as well?  I'm pretty sure Max played with the rear (no pun intended), so hopefully he can share what he found. 

I have some issues with mine that give me the impression of lean surge as well.  I'm still working on trying to correct that myself.  I even have mine set richer in those areas on purpose.  I like the T-max, but I can see a real benefit of using the system in conjunction with a dyno (with sniffer) since I'm not quite sure how much I trust the autotune afr at this point. 

I appreciate your time and ability.

thanks Al.  Although, honestly I'm still learning this stuff myself.  I feel that we may just get this thing (T-max) figured out if we all share our experiences. 

[Admiral Akbar]

but I doubt that the autotune would be indicating they are if they're not.

Then you have never had to deal with any software programmers.. 

boring to you baby build anyway

I thinkin' at lease 95, 37s..  Max

[7hogs]

Mayor,

I think I fixed it and I will let you know how it works. Seems better but I need to put some more miles on it to see.