Why is this?

[metaliser]

I've had my bike tuned several times on different builds so I know a little about the tunning aspect of it but I don't understand this, I had the bike tuned with a fatcat 2in1, 95" bigboyz heads, the heads got messed up by someone trying to put in compression releases, any way it just did 86hp and 84tq, put a set of WFOLarrys heads(groovy) stage1 and installed new rings on the pistons, kb flatops by the way, so after this I used the fatcat download in my PCIII and it ran like a raped ape but it pinged, pretty heavy actually in a hard pull, I went and had it tuned and it did 84hp and 94tq, runs good but didn't have the umph it did with the fatcat download, I'm now running BUB7's also since the rebuild, so I got to thinking about this and I downloaded the fatcat map back in and took 3 degrees timing out for the pinging and it seems like it just frees the engine up , wants to run, it helped on the pinging alot, on a roll on very little pinging, may take -1 mor out and see what that does, but I don't understand why this map runs so great, it feels like a different engine.

[FLTRI]

Highly suspect of the "tune" you got.
Tru-duals will cost quite a bit of low end torque comparef to the Fatcat, so if the Fatcat map works better than the "tuned" map you have for the Bub7s I assume the mapping is not very good.
HTH,
Bob

[metaliser]

Highly suspect of the "tune" you got.
Tru-duals will cost quite a bit of low end torque comparef to the Fatcat, so if the Fatcat map works better than the "tuned" map you have for the Bub7s I assume the mapping is not very good.
HTH,
Bob

Bob I found just the opposite on the tq deal, lost the bottom with the 2n1 and lost total tq, the 7's gave back the bottom and made more tq overall, now as for the tune I'm wondering about that myself, I seen the afr was spot on on both it just seems to release the engine with the 2n1 tune and it has more power no doubt, in the seat of paints alot, feels like it's gained 5 or more everywhere.

[FLTRI]

Tru-duals are known for loss of bottom end torque and 2into1's are known for good bottom end torque.
All I can say is if you are experiencing the opposite then the tune(s) are more than likely suspect in the results.
Bob

[Doc 1]

Bob is correct...

[Admiral Akbar]

Sounds like you are trying to fit Paris Hilton in one of Dolly Pardon's dresses.. Max

[metaliser]

I no longer have the fatcat, I got the cat for the reason you all talked about, even with no tune everyone said man I can feel the bottom end as soon as I put it on, well I put it on and lost bottom end right off the bat, I called PhilM and asked does this thing get better after a dyno and he said yes, this is the whole reason my old heads got screwed up, was trying to get the cat to run, well it didn't for me but the BUB's do, go figure, any ways, I'm going to run that map since it runs so good. 

[FLTRI]

....even with no tune everyone said man I can feel the bottom end as soon as I put it on...

Only by luck could that be.

well I put it on and lost bottom end right off the bat, I called PhilM and asked does this thing get better after a dyno and he said yes

So did you get it tuned properly to evaluate the pipe?

this is the whole reason my old heads got screwed up

Please explain?

was trying to get the cat to run, well it didn't for me but the BUB's do, go figure

The only way to get the cat or any other pipe to run is to get the EFI properly tuned to the pipe, et al.
Just trying to help you understand why you got the opposite results from your pipe change,
Bob

[metaliser]

Bob I had the cat tuned, at the time my heads were leaking a little comp at the comp releases, I had around 170ish ccp, the bike tuned to 86 hp and only 84 tq, it blowed, now when I put the pipe on I had not taken my heads off yet and tried it without a tune in it, it also blowed, no bottom, now I'm not downing the cat, it just didn't work for me, I put on WFOlarrys heads and had the bike retuned with the BUB7's, but before the tune I started off with the download from the cat tune and it felt great, after the tune with the bub's it ran good but not as good and thats why I'm using the cat tune, will leaner cause this to do whats it's doing, this is sorta the same deal when I just had a 88" with 203cams, had a PC on but it would run alot better with just the stage1 flash but it pinged, put the PC back on that had also been dynoed and it ran ok but not as good as the stage 1 flash.

[FLTRI]

In a nutshell:
You need another tuner.
Absolutely no reason/way a tune for an altogether diffeerently designed exhaust system would run better than a properly mapped system for the exact pipe used.
This just indicates the tune is bogus not the pipe.
Bob

[metaliser]

In a nutshell:
You need another tuner.
Absolutely no reason/way a tune for an altogether diffeerently designed exhaust system would run better than a properly mapped system for the exact pipe used.
This just indicates the tune is bogus not the pipe.
Bob

I will have to say that I pulled some timing out, -3 so far and may go to -4 but it still feels better than the other map, quiet a bit actually.

[FLTRI]

I will have to say that I pulled some timing out, -3 so far and may go to -4 but it still feels better than the other map, quiet a bit actually.

Pulling timing out to try to compensate for a bad tune is more smoke and mirrors than anything else since you are not measuring anything other than SOP which can change with fuel quality, air temp, and other variables than affect performance.
Unless you purchase an AFR meter and O2 sensor to measure the tune, IMO you are just making adjustments without quantifying them.
Not to grind on you about this but IME SOP fiddling with timing and/or AFR is not a way to get a good tune, especially on an EFI bike.
Bob

[metaliser]

No grinding taking Bob it's all cool, I know that the fatcat tune shouldn't be in there but it just runs better but it does have a little spark knock, so I pull -3 out in that area and no ping and it still has that umph I had, I'm really not changing the fuel with this map just getting this map to work because it feels better, I might put the right one back in and do a comparo again but I think I'll be happier with this one for now, but thanks again for the advice, only if money grew on tree's. 

[TXP]

Instead of assuming you have a bad tune as some have suggested. Why not perform compression and leakdown tests. Your #s are lower than expected with any of the setups. Would this not indicate the possiblity of a mechanical issue. NO TUNER can correct a mechanical issue with a tune. Just something to consider.

[FLTRI]

Instead of assuming you have a bad tune as some have suggested. Why not perform compression and leakdown tests. Your #s are lower than expected with any of the setups. Would this not indicate the possibility of a mechanical issue. NO TUNER can correct a mechanical issue with a tune. Just something to consider.

I would normally agree with you however compression and leakdown is usually done when low compression/high leakage is suspect. Not saying it is, just that he has detonation usually not caused by low compression/leakage.
Bob
PS - Never good to assume anything, but good to be suspect of the tune when things don't add up like why a 2into1 would not work as well as tru-duals for low rpm power.

[metaliser]

Instead of assuming you have a bad tune as some have suggested. Why not perform compression and leakdown tests. Your #s are lower than expected with any of the setups. Would this not indicate the possiblity of a mechanical issue. NO TUNER can correct a mechanical issue with a tune. Just something to consider.

I don't think my #'s are that low, 84hp and 94tq isn't that bad, the low #'s I talked about was with the Fatcat, pulled a little more hp but it was all the way to the 6200 range to do it, very low tq of only 84, thats when I found the comp releases licking and the heads were screwed, then I got some new heads from WFOLarry, I'm just say'n that the bike runs better and is a little quicker on the old fatcat map except for the pinging and thats why I pulled -3 degrees of timing out.