REPRINT FROM OLD HTT: ENGINE MISSING (Fuel Injected) 03' ROAD KING

[ClassicRider2002]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A REPRINT TOPIC FROM "OLD" HTT

I have saved many great topical discussions as "links" over the years and would hate to see these lost, so I am reprinting this TOPIC here, which may "perhaps" help some.

TOPIC: ENGINE MISSING (Fuel Injected) 03' ROAD KING  06-28-05



From: FLHRDaddy  (Original Message) Sent: 6/28/2005 12:41 PM
Like some others here, my fuel injected 03 Road King has had a condition develop over the past few months where on occasion it wants to miss. Well I purchased the Twin Scan 88 software product and hooked that up today.

From the real time display all sensors appear to be functioning normally and accurate. There were two engine error codes however:  "Intermittent Combustion Front Cylinder" and "No Combustion Front Cylinder". So at least this helps narrow things down.

I've changed plugs and plug wires a month or so back with no change. In fact the problem seems to get a little worse as time goes on. Other possibilities are; Coils, Fuel Injector, Intake Leak. Any other possibilities and recommendations where to start first?

On the Intake Leak, wouldn't that tend to lean up both cylinders causing both to miss? Seems like the coil would be the easiest thing to change but is there much possibility of the problem being here? How reliable are the fuel injectors?

Suggestions are welcome.

Dcrocker1

[ClassicRider2002]

   

From: FLHRDaddy Sent: 6/28/2005 12:48 PM                                                Message 2 of 37 in Discussion
Just thought I would add the following:  The bike wants to sneeze out the air filter every once in a while now at idle and never did this before. When the missing problem occurs it tends to be a low throttle settings and steady rpm between 2,000 and 2,700. This tends to make me think it's an intake leak but if so why does it run fine a lot of the time?

Anytime it starts to miss I can roll on some throttle and it clears up immediately which does not sound like it would be electrically related (coils or fuel injector).  Dcrocker1

 
From: FLHRDaddy Sent: 6/28/2005 12:54 PM                                                Message 3 of 37 in Discussion   
The engine is stock except for Ness air cleaner and V&H Pro-pipe. Engine has never been apart and intake manifold has never been off so factory seals are still installed.  Bike has 28,000 miles on it and uses about 1/2 quart of oil every 3,000 miles. The bike receives regular maintenance and is ridden normally.  Dcrocker1

 
From: harleyhog  Sent: 6/28/2005 12:57 PM                                                   Message 4 of 37 in Discussion
Anytime it starts to miss I can roll on some throttle and it clears up immediately
===============
If it's an intakes leak, giving it some throttle would add fuel and in turn stopping the miss.
   

From: RideWideGlide Sent: 6/28/2005 12:57 PM                                              Message 5 of 37 in Discussion
Just guessing here, but...
It sounds lean to me. The now and then aspect could be related to heat expansion of the components, and the open throttle provides so much more air compared to a small leak that it would mask the leak.

It's easy enough to check for intake leaks, just spray some liquid like WD-40 or Windex around the intake seals from the air cleaner side and, if the idle changes, you've found your problem.  Hardcore

   
From: TCSTD Sent: 6/28/2005 1:11 PM                                                       Message 6 of 37 in Discussion
How about this?

September 09, 2002

Front Injector Harness On Touring Models

You may encounter an intermittent hesitation and historic front injector code,
P0261, on Touring models. If so, the condition could be caused by broken wires in
the ignition harness very close to the injector. Since the insulation is not damaged
the break cannot be seen. Wiggle the harness to determine if the condition exists.

If you do find a broken wire, it is likely due to a mis-positioned tyrap causing the
wires to the front injector to be pulled tight. The combination of insufficient slack
and engine movement can cause wire flex leading to the breakage. When you
repair the wire, be certain to allow slack in the ignition harness to prevent a
recurrence.


From: FLHRDaddy Sent: 6/28/2005 2:20 PM                                                      Message 7 of 37 in Discussion
I had seen a post some time back about wire breakage to the injector. Did not know it was prone to be the front however. I checked both injector leads then with the bike running and againg today. There seems to be plenty of slack and no tight condition at all.

I did run the bike and spray WD-40 around the intake clamps with no apparent change in idle condition. I bumped the 0% throttle fuel flow up on my Power Commander and idle does seem smoother.

The difficulty is that the problem is so intermittent. I never really feel like the bike is just going to completely stop but when it happens it is annoying.  Dcrocker1


From: FLHRDaddy Sent: 6/28/2005 2:35 PM                                                    Message 8 of 37 in Discussion
There must be a Harley manual on the Delphi Fuel Injection system with a full explanation of error codes and troubleshooting guide? Anyone know of such a thing, part number and where one can be purchased?

I live about 30 miles from the nearest dealer, am single and getting the bike to and from the dealer for maintenance is a hassle. I've found it takes less time to do all the maintenance myself. Not to mention that a lot of items are no longer stock on this bike. I've got the computer and electronics background to work on the Fuel Injection, just need a good manual.  Dcrocker1

   
From: harleyhog  Sent: 6/28/2005 2:40 PM                                                     Message 9 of 37 in Discussion
2003 FLT MODELS
ELECTRICAL DIAGNOSTICS
Part Number 99497-03


From: jrafter Sent: 6/28/2005 2:44 PM                                                       Message 10 of 37 in Discussion
It could be your ECM going south.......my bike did the seem thing.


From: ΞFasterĚđ» Sent: 6/28/2005 3:41 PM                                                Message 11 of 37 in Discussion   
I bet post #6 nailed it.


From: Cold.Rider Sent: 6/28/2005 3:48 PM                                                  Message 12 of 37 in Discussion   
Good post DCrocker, and good info. I'm way interested since I'm experiencing the same thing right now (02 Ultra).
Seems like a one-revolution, one cylinder miss, only when at speed.  Happens every 30-50 miles.  I've checked the same things you have and can't seem to find an answer.  Sometimes it sux but I've about resigned myself to wait until something breaks so I can find it and fix it.  Maybe this thread will send me in a new direction.   Cold Rider


From: rkchapper Sent: 6/28/2005 3:52 PM                                                     Message 13 of 37 in Discussion
Pull the spark plugs and inspect.  Excessive build up on the plugs could also indicate a more serious problem. 


From: harleyhog   Sent: 6/28/2005 3:54 PM                                                 Message 14 of 37 in Discussion
I've yet to see a F.I. with overly fouled plugs.


From: harleyhog  Sent: 6/28/2005 3:55 PM                                                  Message 15 of 37 in Discussion   
Meaning WAY too rich, not oil or something.


From: Bigblock6911 Sent: 6/28/2005 9:12 PM                                               Message 16 of 37 in Discussion
just fixed a simular problem with my 04 dyna. the tight tyrap was to the map switch though. would intermittently idle rough or cough or sneeze or quit. cut the tyrap and problem seemed to go away. not really. long story short got to tugging on wires to map and bigger than s--t the wire was broken internally. never threw a map sensor error though. had codes for front coil, crank position sensor. repaired wire and no more problems.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: Cold.Rider Sent: 6/29/2005 4:27 AM                                                    Message 17 of 37 in Discussion
Thanks for chiming in Big Block.  I didn't consider looking at the wiring to the other sensors. I'll give them a look-see.
Cold Rider


From: FLHRDaddy Sent: 6/29/2005 5:16 AM                                                 Message 18 of 37 in Discussion   

I've been inspecting the plugs on a regular basis. They always look good, just a light brown and no build-up.

This morning I raised the tank and cut the tie-wrap holding the Idle Air Control and Front Injector wires together. This wrap was about midway between where the harness is wrapped to the backbone and the devices themselves. Although there looked like plenty of slack, these wires are surprisingly stiff! Removing the wrap provides about twice the slack and gets rid of the almost 90 degree bend in the wires as they exit the injector connector.  Going riding later, will be interesting to see if the problem is better, worse or the same?  Thanks for everyones input, will keep you updated.
Dcrocker1


From: scootenmaniac Sent: 6/29/2005 6:41 AM                                          Message 19 of 37 in Discussion
Interesting discussion.  I've got an '03 FLHTCI.  I am experiencing minor missing at low speeds (cruising between 25 and 45) and the occassional "thump" or cut-out (primarily experienced at take off) about every 3rd time out.  My take on this is that the occassional missing when cruising at low speeds is a lean condition and from what I've read on this board over the past year or so there isn't much that can be done about that. 
The occasional "thump" or cut-out is an interesting one.  The wires being stressed in the wiring harness is an interesting idea.  Thanks


From: mafia0455 Sent: 6/29/2005 8:02 AM                                                 Message 20 of 37 in Discussion
check plug wires make sure they are on tite spray a little WD 40 inside the boot if motor is HP better drop the plug gap 5points .


From: sundance Sent: 6/29/2005 8:38 AM                                                 Message 21 of 37 in Discussion 
My '03 FLTR had the same problem.  Pull the tank(no problem) and remove the contacts from the front injector and check that the wires are firmly into the contact.   Mine pulled out of the contact when I removed the connector.   If not there try the aft injector.  I installed more wire to the forward injector harness and made sure there was plenty of slack for engine movement.


From: clintster Sent: 6/29/2005 7:51 PM                                                   Message 22 of 37 in Discussion
My 02 RKC had the broken injector wire, very frustrating. This was my first time using the manual, then you realize you need the electrical book. I had that very code.


From: FLHRDaddy Sent: 6/30/2005 6:38 AM                                               Message 23 of 37 in Discussion
OK everyone, as stated in my last post (Wednesday 6/29) I raised the tank and removed the tie wrap securing the front injector leads and idle air control leads together. This allowed for about twice as much slack in the front injector leads. As noted the leads were much stiffer than I expected and as the leads exited the injector connector they were bent at almost 90 degrees to the connector. I straightened the leads so they came straight out of the injector connector and made a nice smooth arc to the backbone of the frame where the main harness is strapped to the frame.

Well the bike has never run better, did 270 miles at all speeds, rpms, road conditions and it hit 96 degrees here. The engine never missed a lick, never stumbled, never sneezed out the air cleaner. I didn't realize how crummy the bike had actually been running! It's a completely different bike.

Since it's running so well I'll probably leave well enough alone for now since it's riding season. My guess is repositioning the injector wires resulted in a better connection, maybe I'll get lucky and it will last a while before I have to pull the tank and make the repair?  Thanks for everyone's input.   Dcrocker1
 

From: Cold.Rider Sent: 6/30/2005 7:35 AM                                                 Message 24 of 37 in Discussion   
Thanks for posting your findings, DCrocker.  It's the little things that are learned on here that make this board invaluable. 


From: Larrym Sent: 7/2/2005 9:20 AM                                                      Message 25 of 37 in Discussion 
I'm experienceing similar symptoms, On my 02 RK. 42,000 miles running Wild pig slip ons, k&n filter, opend up air box backing plate, rev tech DFO set to recommended settings for stock with air cleaner and exhaust upgrades.
I have checked the DFO and it appears to be operating normally.
After installing the slipons in October the bike had run great and I was averaging right at 40 MPG. The last couple of weeks I have had an increase in decel popping and my average MPG is now hitting about 45MPG. I get a rare miss usually at light load and low speed. I have seen no engine light (so no codes?).
I realize this is an indication of a lean condition and will be looking at the rest of the things listed here but I am wondering if since I initially set the DFO up in cool weather would the higher summer temps contribute to this?


From: FLHRDaddy Sent: 7/3/2005 8:14 AM                                                  Message 26 of 37 in Discussion 
Larrym,

Since the fuel injection system has an intake air temp sensor and manifold air pressure sensor the system compensates for various atmospheric temperature condiditons. I would not think setting up the DFO in cool weather would make a difference? Since cool air is more dense than hot air the FI systems adjusts the ammount of fuel injected on each stroke accordingly.

If anything I would think setting up the DFO in cool dry weather would result in a slightly richer mixture during hot muggy weather. The FI system has no way to know the humidity level of the intake air. Since air with a high humidity is less dense then dry air I would think under hot humid conditions the bike would run slightly richer if the DFO had been set under cool low humidity conditions?

It was interesting on my bike, it ran for a long time with the miss before I ever got the engine light (engine error code). As described in my earlier post, since providing more slack in the front injector wires I have not noticed any miss while riding the bike in the 600 miles since. I am however continuing to get "No Combustion Front Cylinder" errors from the ECM (don't notice this condition when riding the bike though).

The other day I did 300 miles and had 4 occurances of the "No Combustion Front Cylinder" error. I never noticed the miss while riding. Point being if it doesn't happen very often you won't notice it. Eventually I will have to pull the tank and repair the injector leads.

Dcrocker1


From: FLHRDaddy Sent: 7/3/2005 8:46 AM                                                    Message 27 of 37 in Discussion 
Just a little follow-up; I checked the error codes this morning. Since last clearing the codes I've done about 350 miles and during that time the following two codes have come up;

P1353    "Front Cylinder No Combustion"  One occurance
P1004    "System Relay Contacts Closed"   One occurance

I'm confident the P1353 code is because of the problem with the front injector wire.

I'm not sure about the P1004 error? I've ordered the Electrical Diognostics book for my bike but it's on backorder. Can anyone provide info on what causes the P1004 error? I installed an oil pressure gauge last year and removed the stock oil pressure switch. It's a one lead switch which closes to ground when the bike is off (no oil pressure). Was wondering if the bikes system checks this switch before start and is just seeing that there is no connection to ground before start since the switch has been removed?  Dcrocker1


From: harleyhog  Sent: 7/3/2005 9:35 AM                                                  Message 28 of 37 in Discussion



From: Larrym Sent: 7/3/2005 10:39 AM                                                     Message 29 of 37 in Discussion
Spent the morning looking things over checking wires and other things suggested in this thread and the only thing visible I found was a rotted rubber vacum cap. this cap was on the tube coming off the rear of the manifold close to the breather. The cap just fell off when I bumped it. Don't know if this was the cause or the rest of my monkeying around "fixed" anything but the miss seems to be gone as well as the decel popping. we'll see what happens.

Thanks for the help.


From: prtherockman Sent: 7/4/2005 6:43 AM                                              Message 30 of 37 in Discussion
))Has anyone heard about the service noctice that was sent to the Dealers about a possible fuel line inside the tank getting a small hole in it and because of that the bike would cough and pop,I ride a 03 softtail an had that problem about a year ago.took it in and they repair the problem with() only 7 days down time and about $168.00 which I now find out they were not suppose to charge me at all? well here we are  almost a year later and we are back to coughing and poping.I will be taking it to some other shop and hope not to have to deal with the "dealer
again...but you may want to look into that..seams like it is pretty comon..hope the info will help you all  ride safe always


From: JWroadking Sent: 7/4/2005 6:52 PM                                               Message 31 of 37 in Discussion   
Dorockr1
The system can tell humidity by comparinig temp with O2 content and Barometric peressure

jw

[ClassicRider2002]

From: FLHRDaddy Sent: 7/5/2005 7:28 AM                                                   Message 32 of 37 in Discussion
JWroadking,
I didn't realize the system had any way to determine O2 content? I thought the only devices / sensors associated with the fuel injection system were:

Front Fuel Injector
Rear Fuel Injector
Idle Air Control
Throttle Position Sensor
Intake Air Temperature Sensor
Engine Temperature Sensor
Manifold Pressure Sensor
Crankshaft Position Sensor

Am I missing something?

Dcrocker1
 

From: Larrym Sent: 7/21/2005 10:43 PM                                                  Message 33 of 37 in Discussion 
I'm still experienceing intermittant miss and now a stumble, problem is getting worse and as of this evening I am seeing the engine light go out then come back on at startup. 02 RK. 44,000 miles. Running Wild pig slip ons, k&n filter, opend up air box backing plate, rev tech DFO set to recommended settings for stock with air cleaner and exhaust upgrades.
I have checked the DFO and it appears to be operating normally.

Does the diagnostic code read procedure listed in the tech tips work on '02 and later EFI bikes?  If not is there another way for one of us poor shadetree types to get the code?  If needed is there a decent scantool that a computer/electronics literate working man can afford and use?

Thanks, I await your replies.


From: harleyhog  Sent: 7/22/2005 12:04 AM                                             Message 34 of 37 in Discussion 
This is the same as 02's.


From: Larrym Sent: 7/22/2005 7:10 AM                                                   Message 35 of 37 in Discussion
Thanks Harleyhog, thats something I needed!
So, anyone else have any knowledge of a less than astronomicaly priced scan tool / code reader ?
 

From: harleyhog  Sent: 7/22/2005 12:20 PM                                             Message 36 of 37 in Discussion
http://www.daytona-sensors.com/Twin_Scan.html

I see they've added a USB adaptor, could be usefull for the RT.


From: Larrym Sent: 7/22/2005 1:13 PM                                                     Message 37 of 37 in Discussion
Any experience with the Twin Scan unit? I had looked at that earlier and it looks like about what I need. Unless I hear something negative I will probably pick one up.


Anything added beyond this point is new information.

Regards,

"Classic"


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[ClassicRider2002]

Here is a address/link below that is a "link" to the "Part B" or "Second Part" of this thread, SIMPLY, CLICK, VIEW, & READ:

TOPIC: REPRINT FROM OLD HTT:  BROKEN WIRES TO FRONT INJECTOR

Regards,

"Classic"