REPRINT FROM OLD HTT: SIGH....NEED HELP BIKE RUNNING ON 1 CYLINDER (HIPPO????)

[ClassicRider2002]

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DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A REPRINT TOPIC FROM "OLD" HTT

I have saved many great topical discussions as "links" over the years and would hate to see these lost, so I am reprinting this TOPIC here, which may "perhaps" help some.

TOPIC: SIGH.....NEED SOME HELP STILL BIKE RUNNING ON ONE CYLINDER (HIPPO?)  07-31-07


From: ClassicRider2002  (Original Message) Sent: 7/31/2007 7:22 PM   Message 1 of 35 in Discussion


Previous post tells about initial problem if anyone is interested:
Panicked --- Sturgis Is Coming Up 2002 RKC Engine Missing Help Please!!!!

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2002 RKC Fuel Injected  mild 95" other details of engine can be found in the above post. Bike has 20,700 miles.

I could really use some input here, please....I am stuck....I have been working on this issue for over 3 weeks now can anyone provide some ideas...

Have for the past three weeks been experiencing intermittent hesitancy and stumbling and then bike running perfectly....in the past couple weeks it has gone from something fairly minor to only running on one cylinder.... 
July 21st Friday, I took the bike out for a "test run" and it died about 6 miles from home after running on only one cylinder for nearly 6 miles,....got it started back up a couple of minutes later, came home made sure all of my wiring was correct to the coil and spark plugs....and at the time I thought perhaps I crossed the coil wires from front to back cylinder....but now I am not sure I did (because of what happened today) the bike sat for a few hours while trying to figure what to do.....pulled 5 wires, (spark plug wires to spark plugs and wires to the coil and the coil electrical wire and made sure all attachments were solid) then went back out and it ran perfectly for 20 miles to my surprise.  On the 22nd and 23rd of July (Saturday and Sunday) another test run...over 200 miles between the two days...bike ran perfectly.  Still not convinced that I had really fixed anything, I then last Wednesday evening did the following because thinking "intermittent" and IT may come back so:

Changed the following:
spark plugs      and am running the 6r12's
spark plug wires  oem stock for touring 
purchased new coil no difference so old coil is back on.....
completely cleaned out gas tank (nothing there anyway)
replaced fuel filter (since I have over 20,000 miles and Manual says to replace it at 25,000) which means that I also replaced the "2nd" flex tubing.
replaced check valve (convulted flex tubing) quick release
replaced vapor valve
gas cap is fine....checked
pulled EFI wiring harness completely off the bike and with an ohm meter checked for continuity for fuel injector wires and everything checked out.....fine...put EFI wiring harness back on bike.
Fuel injectors are working as the front cylinder plug was wet even though it wasn't firing at the time.

Put all of the above back together.  Went for a 28 mile ride yesterday everything fine. 

Went for another "test" ride today and 24 miles into the ride going up a canyon....I went down to ONE CYLINDER, limped home....before getting home on the side of the road I pulled the power commander off to see if that was the issue and it's not the power commander as it continued to run on only one cylinder.

Crank Shaft Position Sensor                32798-00A
Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor       32316-99
Intake Air Temperature Sensor           272270-95
Idle Air Control                                 27628-01
Throttle Position Sensor                     27629-01
Engine Temperature Sensor                32446-99
Oil Pressure Sensor                           74438-99
Barametric Pressure Map                    32424-98

So my question is.....what can I do next.....I listed the "sensors" above that are on my bike....which ones if any might lead to this as a problem?

I have checked with my local dealers and all of the sensors are available, but NO ONE has the time to do a diagnostic to tell me what what is going on....and quite frankly I don't trust their input anyway.....<~~~~~sorry I feel this way.

I know my valves are not the problem.....I modified my current "map" a bit to make sure I am not running too lean.....but I don't think a map would cause me to go to one cylinder would it.....so within these parameters any ideas?

I am suppose to be leaving with my wife on Saturday to go to Sturgis...taking her for the first time....and I am really getting bummed out here....the whole month of July has been focused on figuring this out....Please no comments that I should just go carb....I am not in the mood....If anyone can help me out....I would really really really appreciate it....

Sigh.......

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

   

From: HerkoBagger Sent: 7/31/2007 8:12 PM   Message 2 of 35 in Discussion
02 Model??...look at attachment?? May have been mentioned already in your other thread...if so disregard.
Had a similar situation on a 2000 EG. All wiring ohmed out good. But on a main wire...the copper strands were broken inside the insulation. Connected most of the time. Bike died very hit or miss. No pattern at all to trend.
Anyway...


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/31/2007 8:22 PM    Message 3 of 35 in Discussion 
Thanks herkoBagger.....I appreciate that input and I am aware of that issue....and that is something we checked carefully, but who knows it could be it........

Update:

I also just finished taking the bike out for another "test run" this evening....after it was running on one cylinder....I changed the spark plugs again putting two brand new ones in. and started the bike, warmed it up for a couple of minutes....and took off everything fine for 2 miles and then back to one cylinder...turned around and came home again.....

"Classic"
   

From: HerkoBagger Sent: 7/31/2007 8:26 PM   Message 4 of 35 in Discussion
Curious on the wire lead mentioned...if you cut into the outer covering sleeve to carefully inspect the inner wires?  I would have never known if I had not done this on the 2000 EG.


From: HIPPO_ Sent: 7/31/2007 8:28 PM   Message 5 of 35 in Discussion
The wiring to the front injector mentioned above is a known issue, might be good to look into it, sometimes with the bike running you can carefully move the wires around with a stick or something and maybe cause a reaction.  Other then that, any way to identify for sure which cylinder cuts out? One could switch injectors and see if the failure follows.

I sort of have something like it with mine, but it only does it maybe twice a month so it is much harder to find, got to break it in order to be able to fix it.  


From: HIPPO_ Sent: 7/31/2007 8:41 PM   Message 6 of 35 in Discussion
To clarify, you can do the stick thing both with the bike running fine or missing (as long as it somehow idles), any change either fixing itself or starting to miss when poking around in there is almost surely a internal break in the wiring issue. At least yours didn't do it in the middle of the desert @120F.  


From: markymark Sent: 7/31/2007 8:45 PM Message 7 of 35 in Discussion
Had the same thing happen on my 02 FLH. Wiggled the injector wires and sure enough, recreated the miss. Wires were broken in the injector connector. Luckily, and GM parts department will have a repair kit. Not sure if HD has one or not.


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/31/2007 8:54 PM Message 8 of 35 in Discussion
Thanks everyone.....I REALLY APPRECIATE ALL of your input!!!

Hippo....when I got off the bike tonight the second time after changing the spark plugs and only going a total of 4 miles, I felt both cylinders and the front one was definitely cooler and the rear one was hot....so that tells me the front wasn't firing.....this is exactly what happened when it went to one cylinder on the 22nd of July, it was the front cylinder as confirmed by an independent mechanic and not myself.

I will try the stick thing....and the other thing you are right about is that I am at least home with this issue and not on the "PLANNED" trip....this bike has never left me stranded but it certainly has left me "limping".

Regards,

"Classic"


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/31/2007 9:25 PM   Message 9 of 35 in Discussion
Markymark,

<Had the same thing happen on my 02 FLH. Wiggled the injector wires and sure enough, recreated the miss. Wires were broken in the injector connector. Luckily, and GM parts department will have a repair kit. Not sure if HD has one or not.>

Markymark, is this the "repair kit" you are referring to? ~~~~~>

some sort of "kit" Local GM dealer makes a injector connector repair kit for less than $15.00. GM part # 12085491; available at any auto parts jobber that carries AC-Delco. ,<~~~~copied from a post on HTT....

and when you say your wires were broken "in the injector connector" are you talking about the wires that are in the "connector plug" that snaps onto the injector??

How does that "kit" work?

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Hippo since you didn't "jump" on any sensors for me to check.....is this because from my description of my problem it doesn't sound like any "sensor" issues.....??

Thanks

"Classic"


From: HIPPO_ Sent: 7/31/2007 9:51 PM   Message 10 of 35 in Discussion
The sensors you listed would most likely affect both cylinders.

They break internally in various places sometimes inside the wire, sometimes inside the connector at the pin crimp. Meter doesn't catch them because of no load, the broken ends butt together and read good until they open from load or vibration.

The part is usually available at AutoZone or PepBoys, where they have the blister packs with EFI connectors or sometimes behind the counter. Don't tell them it's for a bike as they will say they don't have it, tell them it's for a GM car like an older 3.8 or something, best is to cut the thing off and show them.

Dealers don't have the repair kits, they have to make them up from housings, pins and wire.  
   

From: oldgreybeard44 Sent: 7/31/2007 11:57 PM   Message 11 of 35 in Discussion
Classic states:
"Fuel injectors are working as the front cylinder plug was wet even though it wasn't firing at the time."  So don't think it's an injector problem. Classic, I know you tried a new coil with no difference. I would suggest checking for spark at the misfiring cylinder when the cylinder is dead. With EFI you'll need to keep a plug installed so the ECM will "see" compression. If no spark, then double check that cylinder's(front?) trigger wire from the coil to the ECM OR the terminals themselves at the coil and ECM. I am assuming that  battery voltage and grounds are all good and you have no vacuum leaks.  Also, asyncronous signals from the crank and cam sensors will cause the ECM to think the cams and crank are out of time and cause a misfire even if it's just a fauly sensor. NOTE: I'm not sure what year they dropped the cam sensor. Think basics, you only need fuel, air, compression and ignition. Good luck

OGB44
   

From: lonegoosehonkin Sent: 8/1/2007 7:55 AM   Message 12 of 35 in Discussion
Greybeards advice" Think basics fuel,air,compression is Gospel" So many times I have worked on a bike and got caught up going in the wrong direction. Years ago an oldtimer told me " You do just like they do to you in the ER , check the vital signs." 99 percent of the times one is off. Sometimes too you can lose your way, and if you do doublecheck the vitals it always leads you down the right path.
 

From: munkeywithlobo Sent: 8/1/2007 8:13 AM   Message 13 of 35 in Discussion
I don't see that you checked compression.. Is the plug just wet, sooty wet, oily wet?

Is it possible to cross the injector wires?

Bruce
notafiguy
   

From: lonegoosehonkin Sent: 8/1/2007 8:41 AM   Message 14 of 35 in Discussion
Didn't the early models have a problem with the plug at the coil shorting . Had one along time ago that did it . Sometimes it would fire up both cylinders than other times it would one lung. Pull the plug and ohm it and see if its shorted a-b-c any combination thereof.
 

From: -tricky1 Sent: 8/1/2007 6:34 PM   Message 15 of 35 in Discussion
could this be the wiring by the right downtube, the one that likes to rub the insulations off and ground out.
     

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 8/3/2007 1:10 AM   Message 16 of 35 in Discussion
Well guys I want to THANK EVERYONE who has attempted to help ME ALONG THE WAY in both posts as I have been chasing this proble for nearly 4 weeks now!!!!

HIPPO YOUR INPUT WAS "PRICELESS"  you were SPOT ON!!!!

I also FOUND The GM/Delco "kit" which was $15.00 a few years ago is now $24.00 "The Local GM dealer makes a injector connector repair kit for less than $15.00. GM part # 12085491; available at any auto parts jobber that carries AC-Delco"  The above part number is still a good part number as well.

Quotes from Hippo:
"They (fuel injector wires) break internally in various places sometimes inside the wire, sometimes inside the connector at the pin crimp.<~~~BINGO FOR ME!!!
the meter doesn't catch them because of no load, the broken ends butt together and read good until they open from load or vibration.  The wiring to the front injector mentioned above is a known issue, might be good to look into it, sometimes with the bike running you can carefully move the wires around with a stick or something and maybe cause a reaction.
To clarify, you can do the stick thing both with the bike running fine or missing (as long as it somehow idles), any change either fixing itself or starting to miss when poking around in there is almost surely a internal break in the wiring issue.
I did the above "stick" help and it worked perfectly......what a "common sense" idea!!!! IT DID EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID IT WOULD DO....so I went and purchased the GM part from my local dealer and then as you can see below spliced it in.....The length of wire that the "kit" provides for is about 15" long......I used 7" as the best I could tell my "break" was found underneath the rubber insulation inside the plug for the front fuel injector.

The last photo shows the front injector wire with the marron/pinkish type insulator, I believe I have just enough slack and it seems like I have a nice curve for the wire as well.

Thank you Hippo for taking your time and providing the input that was extremely valuable....and thanks everyone else as well...that continued to encorage me to look at that wire....funny thing is I took off the entire EFI harness to ohem test it...everything checked out fine.....and one would never see the "break" in this fuel injector wire until you remove the insulator inside the plug.

It's off to Sturgis on Saturday!!!!!!!!!!  Washing and waxing tomorrow.......THANK YOU!!!
Regards,

"CLASSIC"

[NOTE: Please remember that putting your curser next to the paper clip icon below the photo will allow you to enlarge the photo plus save it to your computer if you desire OR if you merely wish to see it enlarged simply put your curser on the photo and "LEFT" click and it will enlarge]



[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[ClassicRider2002]

   

From: blk-betty Sent: 8/3/2007 6:39 AM   Message 17 of 35 in Discussion
Congrat man.  I have a carbie and was following this post (and others on EFI) to try to learn as mauch as I can. 

I know how relieved you must be and have a great trip.


From: HIPPO_ Sent: 8/3/2007 12:49 PM   Message 18 of 35 in Discussion
There you go. High tech, poke it with a stick.

Carb bikes do it also, my 99 RK broke the wire inside the connector for the coil. They just use total garbage wiring harnesses with cheap wire.  The 3 way coil connector is from a GM engine temp sensor, they had this one at PepBoys.

   
From: Dakota Sent: 8/3/2007 2:08 PM   Message 19 of 35 in Discussion
That's what I love about this site. I read all of this, not having any suggestions, but just wanting to learn. When you have a problem there are always a lot of experts to help you figure it out. I'd be afraid to do much of anything on my bike without this site, and I think I'm a fairly good mechanic, but I still wouldn't tackle it without this site.
And the great thing about all of this is you can get all of this advice just from a few keystrokes at home.


From: mrmike163rk Sent: 8/3/2007 2:18 PM   Message 20 of 35 in Discussion
Well Hippo there goes another satisfied customer!   Mike


From: Hrtnrse13 Sent: 8/3/2007 9:22 PM   Message 21 of 35 in Discussion
Very impressive I must say. I can't get enough of this site and those willing to share their experiences and knowledge.  Classic, have a safe trip and please come to the M&G when you are there. Hrtnrse
   

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 8/4/2007 2:03 AM   Message 22 of 35 in Discussion
leaving in a few hours to go to Sturgis with MY wife on the back....<grins> she threatened to not go if the RKC wasn't working properly....she didn't want to be on the FXR2 that long....I told I would stop many many times...but anyway...

What can I say......got the bike back from some dyno tuning Friday morning and it "seems" to be running very very very very nicely......the person who did my dyno for me concentrates on the "practical" use of the bike....anyway....he pointed out a couple of more things I needed to address on the bike....like tightening up the belt and the adjusting the throttle cable and so I had him do it....just to get it done very quickly....

Bike is washed and waxed and the leather treated.....

I can't thank everyone who gave me input enough....this is an example of "real time" need and "help" and I will repeat it again something as simple as using a "stick" to create a problem and then using it stop the problem and visa versa....is simply amazing.....within 4 minutes I had a solution to my problem.....

Hippo you are such a value to this website....just as Samuel was as are many others here.....I learn from all of you guys!!!!

I also benefited from your insight about how it probably wasn't a sensor problem since my bike was still "trying" to run.....I also copied a post where you once said that it would be a smart idea to travel with specific sensors that if you had and did go out you could keep the bike running.....something to keep in your tool pouch when riding.....at least the ones that if they go out and you don't have them your stuck....anyway perhaps in a few days I can get a list of those "sensors" from you...

Alright need some sleep....

Regards,

"Classic"


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 8/11/2007 2:39 PM   Message 23 of 35 in Discussion
Hello Everyone,

Well have been back a few days from Sturgis.....got back Wednesday evening.

I just wanted all to know 1,245 miles later bike is still running perfectly.  No stumbles or hesitancies.  Some of those miles of course were at the 3,000 rpm level of 32 miles an hour....going through the needle highway area.....some of those miles were at 90 miles an hour in the passing lane.....some of those miles were at the 3,000 rpm level at 74 miles an hour in wyo as well....

BOTTOM thus far bike is working perfectly!!!!!

THANK YOU!!!     THANK YOU!!!       THANK YOU!!!

Regards,

"Classic"


From: Tym2Pla2 Sent: 4/29/2008 2:07 PM   Message 24 of 35 in Discussion
Your info has been invaluable,thanks for all the updates and responses.  Thanks again.


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 4/29/2008 11:28 PM   Message 25 of 35 in Discussion
Thank you for your comments....the information discussed in this thread at the time was "EXTREMELY" helpful....and assisted me in having a great trip to Sturgis as well!!!  Glad it has helped you.....

I am going to post a few more threads into this post so that perhaps others might find some additional reading, sometimes it helps to have the opportunity to read more than one person's problems to better diagnois our own situations, perhaps some time down the road it will prove helpful to someone at a different time:

This "Thread" really begins to formulate when my problem started in 2005.  As you will see in this thread, and at the time I thought the "problem was fixed as it turns out...perhaps when all was said and done and a new "coil" was put on, what I am now thinking is that while the "mechanic" was making all of the other changes checking on spark plug wires, spark plugs, and moving the tank to get to the coil that maybe just maybe the "jostling" around that  occured masked the "intermittent" problem which finally showed itself to be a broken fuel injector wire....(Unfortuately I didn't keep the coil that had been removed because if I had I could have tried to reinstall it after replacing the fuel injector wire to see if the coil was indeed bad or not).....

So here is that thread and symptoms going back to August of 2005,
simply place your curser over the address/link below, click, view and read:

TOPIC:  STURGIS ROAD PROBLEM  08-10-05

The next THREAD regarding this issue in 2007, simply place your curser over the address/link below, click, view and read:

TOPIC:  PANICKED---STURGIS IS COMING UP 2002 RKC ENGINE IS MISSING HELP PLEASE!!!! 07-23-07

Here is another's person experience with his EFI I found very helpful in using to diagnoise my problem, simply place your curser over the address/link below, click, view and read:

Part A:

TOPIC: ENGINE MISSING (Fuel Injected) 03' ROAD KING  06-28-05
 
His Solution Part B:

TOPIC:  BROKEN WIRES TO FRONT INJECTOR  08-05-05

Finally I would be remiss if I didn't attach two more threads....about "spark plugs and wires, it's very common for any of us to assume when we first start seeing hesitancy issues to begin to try to determine what we can eliminate and sometimes as I did I started with spark plugs and spark plug wires, coils and so forth so here is some input on spark plugs and spark plug wires:

Look at the date of this thread when you read it, it's amazing how information sometimes is timeless:

Spark Plug Wires

Regards,

"Classic"
     

Sent: 4/30/2008 12:04 AM   Message 26 of 35 in Discussion
This message has been deleted by the author.


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 4/30/2008 8:22 AM   Message 27 of 35 in Discussion

September 09, 2002

Front Injector Harness On Touring Models:

You may encounter an intermittent hesitation and historic front injector code, P0261, on Touring models. If so, the condition could be caused by broken wires in the ignition harness very close to the injector. Since the insulation is not damaged the break cannot be seen. Wiggle the harness to determine if the condition exists. If you do find a broken wire, it is likely due to a mis-positioned tyrap causing the wires to the front injector to be pulled tight. The combination of insufficient slack and engine movement can cause wire flex leading to the breakage. When you repair the wire, be certain to allow slack in the ignition harness to prevent a recurrences.


From: j79phan2 Sent: 4/30/2008 10:01 AM   Message 28 of 35 in Discussion
On my 03 RK, the front injector wire broke right at the Wire Tie on the frame.
Not enough slack and engine movement was causing the Tie Wrap to act as a hinge point for the injector wires.

[ClassicRider2002]

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The rest of the messages were of no further consquence to the topic....


Anything added beyond this point is new information.

Regards,

"Classic"