REPRINT FROM OLD HTT: Race Tech Emulator Fork Oil

[ClassicRider2002]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A REPRINT TOPIC FROM "OLD" HTT

I have saved many great topical discussions as "links" over the years and would hate to see these lost, so I am reprinting this TOPIC here, which may "perhaps" help some.

TOPIC:  Race Tech Emulator Fork Oil 08-19-07


From: tireater  (Original Message) Sent: 8/19/2007 10:46 AM   Message 1 of 10 in Discussion
I have read people recommend up to 30wt with the drilled dampner rod...
I also have progressive springs and they warn to not use too heavy of an oil...
I tried using Harley racing fork oil in the St Bob with prog. springs...worked terrible...
Anyone know of a recommended fork oil I can get locally...(and what the viscosity should be)...? Thanks...

[ClassicRider2002]

From: Fuzznut5197 Sent: 8/19/2007 11:11 AM    Message 2 of 10 in Discussion
When I put in my emulator/spring kit, the instructions that came with the kit said to use 30W and have the gold valve at 2 turns of preload. At the same time, I went to their website for a custom valving recommendation and it specified 15W and 3 turns of preload. I stuck with the instruction sheet and put in 30W with 2 turns. It seemed OK, I thought. Then I put on Progressive 418 shocks in the rear, which have adjustable rebound damping. At max damping, the bike goes around corners like a hobby horse (not good). At near minimum damping, the back end feels stable, and at that point I could tell that the front end isn't that great. The 30W is too much damping, so I am going to try the 15W/ 3 turns like the website recommends.
   

From: tireater Sent: 8/19/2007 11:22 AM   Message 3 of 10 in Discussion
Is your bike a bagger?
Mine is and it comes with the 64lb spring and 2 turns stock...all others are the 40lb spring and 3 turns...
Where do they sell 15w local..? Thanks..Andre'
 

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 8/19/2007 11:43 AM   Message 4 of 10 in Discussion
A few years ago when I put race tech emulators in my 2002 RKC I also went with Belray 20w fork oil.  I turned the emulator valve x amount of turns not sure what it was....but I remember an additional turn more than recommended I know this for sure.  I was after more of a "porsche" handling type of performance vs a "cadillac" type of "Cushy" ride.

The other day in fact a buddy rode my bike....and unbeknownst to him he got off my bike and that is exactly how he described my ride vs his road glide....he liked the performance of my handling in the corners but preferred the "softer" ride of his stock 2001 road glide....which is fine with me....(he described exactly what I was after).....the bottom line when I first acquired my RKC, I was having lots of "diving away from me" as the result of the front forks when braking at lights or stop signs which of course resulted in my arms being extended away from me when the handlebars followed the forks resulting in a very "unstable" feeling....

After doing the emulators with the Belray 20 weight and with the "springs" that came with their kit via race tech I have for years now had/have a great set up. I prefer the "Stiffer" "road feedback" provided by a suspension that allows for road "feedback" than one that "absorbs" too much and I get no road "feedback".....and I prefer a bike that provides such "feedback" in corners / twisties......and for a bike that doesn't "dive away from me" when stopping.....which makes one feel they are "lunging" forward per say as I mentioned above. 

If you are having issues after having installed the race tech emulators (although I can't tell that's even what you have done from your original post above) I would revisit your installation with an R&D rep of race tech....I know for a fact when I did mine in 2004 that at the time race tech only had two people qualified to respond to their products proper installation on an HD bike.

I know that Hippo has always said that his "receipe" was with 20 weight fork oil with a bit more preload....I am not sure I would go with 30 weight however....

To find the 20 weight belray fork oil you sometimes have to go to a "metric" shop to find it.....or of course order it directly from Belray I suppose.  I think the other key when using the race tech emulators would also include using their "springs" as that's how they do their R&D to determine useage....however that's just my opinion.  Once again my experience with the race tech emulators has only been with my 2002 RKC.

Regards,

"Classic"


From: guesscrazy1 Sent: 8/19/2007 11:56 AM   Message 5 of 10 in Discussion
My instruction sheet said 10wt. and 1 turn of preload.I went with 20 wt.and 2 turns with racetec springs. i might bump it up 3 turns at tne next fork oil change.


From: tireater Sent: 8/19/2007 11:57 AM   Message 6 of 10 in Discussion
I'll try the Bel Ray 20w...and if I need more...I'll do a turn on the emulators...
So far it seems to be working OK...but I would like to dial it in...
I have ALWAYS been bothered by front end dive on panic stops which negates the rear brake...
Thanks for the great reply...andre'
   

From: tireater Sent: 8/19/2007 12:04 PM   Message 7 of 10 in Discussion
When you change from 2 to 3 turns...what are you expecting to happen to the ride...?
   

From: guesscrazy1 Sent: 8/19/2007 12:12 PM   Message 8 of 10 in Discussion
I think it will provide more compression damping.01 RKC ridden 2 up 90%.
   

From: PC_Hater Sent: 8/19/2007 12:25 PM   Message 9 of 10 in Discussion
I fitted the full RaceTech kit into my Road Glide. The emulators, the recommended springs and the 30WT RaceTech oil. I set the emulator to the recommended number of turns with the recommended spring.

On the Race Tech website when it asks how you ride I said "fairly aggressive". I should have said "very aggressive". The recommended setup is a bit soft for my taste. So solo I run 10psi to 15psi of air in the forks, two-up with luggage I run the full 25psi in the forks. The next time I have cause to take the forks apart I will fit a longer preload spacer, I might even just fit a stronger spring, but I have a nice compromise and it works.

Go to your nearest dirt-bike shop for a fine selection of fork oils from 0W to 50W.
     

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 8/19/2007 12:33 PM   Message 10 of 10 in Discussion
Hi again....

I went back to my notes....and here is something that might be helpful,.....please note that when I purchased the Race Tech emulators this was how they came "packaged" not sure if this is how they are now or not, from a post I did here on July 19th, 2004:
......emulators come installed with one spring and have another spring which is in a package....the one in the package is the heavier duty spring....I am talking about the size of your thumb nail...anyway I used the heavier duty one...and once installed i had the mechanic turn it 1.5 times...I think there are a 5 total turns available.....

perhaps the above will help....

This was also something posted by a member to me when I was working through this, I found it very helpful, perhaps you will as well, remember his comments are reflective about a 2002 RKC:

From: AustinFXDWG                   Sent: 5/20/2004 8:14 PM

Progressive springs are a band-aid to fix the underlying problem of inadequate damping. The stock damping is single stage and cannot differentiate much between an expansion joint, or a pothole. It reacts linearly the same to each. The progressive spring helps this because the intial spring rate in response to a bump is soft, then stiffens up the farther the suspension compresses. The stock springs are closer to the initial soft compression of the progressives so you get a decent ride, but will bottom out on big sharp edged bumps.

The Race-tech emulators on the other hand are velocity sensitive. Rather than fixed diameter holes in the damper rod to flow oil, you have spring loaded relief valves that vent oil under fork compression in a volume inversely proportional to the rate, or velocity that the fork compresses. Easy bumps let oil through easily and absorb the shocks. Sharp bumps will let the oil through in volume at the start of compression, then close it down to stop the compression at a rate determine by how you set the spring valves on the emulators. Having a true multi stage damper lets you set the spring rate for your bike and rider weight versus having to compromise in the interest of ride ability.   I have had the emulators on the last 3 bikes I have owned. To me, they are a must have and make the single biggest difference in comfort and handling that you can make to a bike that does not already have cartridge style forks. If you do consider the Gold Valve emulators, you will also want to reconsider the springs you are using. The race tech site can give you a lot more technical information regarding suggested spring weights and fork oil weights to match your bike, your load weight, and riding style.  
==========

Actually If I am going to "quote" Hippo, I better get it right, here is what he actually said....my appologies:

From: HIPPO_    Sent: 11/13/2004 11:27 AM
BELRAY 15W + 1.5 oz over what is called for is what I used on the RatKing. (his bike) 99% solo riding. Some friends run the same with 20w at about 1 oz over but its too stiff for my taste.  It needs to be specifically pointed out that you can not use this approach with the cartridge fork legs because in this case the legs and the oil charges vary from side to side and you would have no way of determining how variances affect each leg (ie they would not be affected the same)

However as I have stated above I actually prefer the 20 weight Belray.....

click on this for a interesting post going back to February of 2005:

http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=1785.0

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

Anything added beyond this point is new information.

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

As of November 23rd, 2008, this reflections would more accurately state what I feel about what fork oil should be used with a 2002 RKC when used when either changing simply the fork oil or when using the Race Tech Emulators:

More Terms & Explainations About Race Tech Emulators:

Gold Valve Cartridge Emulators   
 
(for damping rod forks)
Damping rod forks are notorious for being both too harsh and too easy to bottom. This is the nature of damping rod fixed orifice forks. Until now, all you could do is change spring rate, oil viscosity and damping hole size. The best available was a serious compromise.

The Gold Valve Cartridge Emulator is another one of the outstanding inventions from Race Tech’s Paul Thede. Simply put; Emulators make damping rod forks perform like well-tuned cartridge forks. Emulators are tunable valves that sit on top of the damping rods and are held in place with the main springs. This makes them both simple to install and completely tunable for all conditions and rider preferences.

Track tests consistently produce lap times that are 1 or more seconds a lap faster while Cruisers and Gold Wing owners rave at the increased control and ride quality.



Gold Valve Fork Kits  

Race Tech's original bolt-on fork valving system for cartridge forks.

Stock valving pistons have very restrictive ports. This makes it impossible to get the ultimate results with the stock pistons. Gold Valves triple the flow area putting valving control on the shim stack instead of the overly restricted stock piston. This results in outstanding tuneability, improved control, traction, plushness and bottoming resistance.

Includes complete instructions, Gold Valve Pistons, Valving Charts, and Valving Shims.

What Race Tech's Emulators do is provide the ability to adjust compression dampening by controlling the flow of the fork oil by using a spring-loaded, flapper valve that can be adjusted two ways. The first being the amount of spring pre-load, the second being the thickness of the flapper. Since rebound dampening is based on the viscosity of the fork oil, the desired weight of fork oil is the first thing to be determined. Once that is set, the emulators are adjusted by setting the spring pre-load of the valve. Increasing the pre-load will stiffen the fork during compression, but has no effect on rebound. With the Emulators in place, the most significant difference in the bike's ride is much less front-end dive when braking and cornering. This lets the suspension do what it was designed for-absorbing. 

Some Commonly Asked Questions:

Q: What is the difference between raising the oil level and changing the viscosity?  
A: Raising the oil level increases the compression ratio in the front fork and therefore changes the progressiveness of the spring forces. This has nothing to do with the damping (key point). Changing the oil viscosity changes the damping. Both the compression and the rebound. The spring forces are sensitive to position in other words where it is in the travel while damping forces only care how fast the damper is moving.

Q: I have a bike with damping rod type forks. I have heard that Gold Valve® Cartridge Emulators® are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Why?
A: Old fashioned damping rods while inexpensive to manufacture have major limitations. To create compression damping, oil is shoved through a hole or holes. Shoving oil through holes creates very little resistance to flow at low vertical wheel velocities as when hitting a dip or gully or applying the front brakes. This allows the forks to shoot through the travel fairly easily, diving or bottomming in these situations. On the other hand when the wheel hits something square edge, especially at speed, it needs a lot of oil to pass through the damping holes very quickly. Unfortunately the nature of shoving oil through holes is that as the wheel velocity increases the damping force increases with the square of th e velocity. In other words if you double the velocity you get four times the force. This means the hole basically "hydraulic locks" resulting in a harsh spike. Damping rods give the worst of both worlds, they are both too mushy and too harsh at the same time.

An Emulator® is a valve that sits on top of the damping rod and is held in place with the main spring. To install them we simply remove the damping rods and drill out the existing compression damping holes so they are so large they do not create any appreciable damping. Then during reassembly we simply drop the Emulator® on top of the damping rod. The Emulator® creates the compression damping of a state-of-the-art cartridge fork. The ride is both firmer and plusher than the damping rod and is completely tuneable. Sliced bread is good, Emulators® are better.

ON MY 2002 RKC I HAVE DONE THE FOLLOWING:

The 2002 Factory Service Manual states that for a 2002 Road King with Conventional “Dampening” forks place 11.1 oz of fork oil in each of the right and left fork legs.

HIPPO~~~02-13-05: 
For my weight 15 weight fluid overfilled by about 1 or 1.5 OZ worked extremely well, for others that were heavier 20 weight at the factory fill level. I always used Bel~Ray fork oil. Referred to as the “HIPPO” Recipe  

I Replaced the fork oil for the 2002 RKC on June 27, 2008.
I replaced with 10 oz of 20w Bel~Ray Fork Oil In Each Fork Leg.

With next fork oil maintenance I will see how much oil comes out….because I precisely put in 10 oz.

Personally, I think I should put in 11 oz next time or 11.5 oz and why I chose to put only 10 oz in, June 27th, 2008 was because I placed back in exactly what came out from when I initially installed the Race Tech emulators and chromed lower forks back in 2004.  SO I wanted to match exactly what was in the bike as I liked how it rode, next time PERHAPS a bit more? Some are putting in .5 oz over the OEM Factory specified amount, which is 11.1 oz.

From: HIPPO_   Sent: 2/28/2002 2:14 PM
The air pressure has no effect on damping. It affects spring rate. By upping the oil level, within reason, you achieve the same thing and avoid having to constantly check the pressure, as it leaks down over the time of a trip. That's all.  The weight of the oil is what affects damping, heavier oil, more damping. It must have been the right idea, because the new setup on the 02 right side FLT forks, and both on the RK's, does basically the same thing. You can see they specify different oil volumes for the cartridge and conventional legs now. 
(additional note by me, 2002 Factory Service Manual for Touring Bikes states that for ALL MODELS (Except for the Road King Models ie: FLHR, FLHRI, FLHRCI) the left side ie: the cartridge side is to be filled to 9.9 oz and the right side FOR ALL MODELS ie: the dampening rod side the Factory OEM Level calls for filling to 11.1 oz.


Race Tech Website:
http://www.racetech.com/articles/CartridgeForks.htm

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

This reflection was made in 2007 by Mike52 who owns a 2006 Street Glide and speaks to what he decided to do with his bike when doing a fork oil change:

From:   Mike52 Sent: 10/23/2007 7:43 PM
......if you want to go to a heavier fork oil, I'll highly recommend Bel-Ray 20wt. This was recommended to me by several members on this board. I used the Bel-Ray 20wt with an extra 1/2 oz (as recommended) when I changed to chrome lowers on my '06 Street Glide and really like the way the bike rides and handles. On the first ride after the swap I thought that I made a mistake because the front end felt a little too stiff. It did feel more firm than the stock set-up, but after putting a few more miles on the bike and swapping bikes with a couple of friends with '05 E.G. Classics, we all felt like my bike rode better than the others. I don't think you will be disappointed with the 20wt Bel-Ray.

Mike