what could be wrong and how to change it

[Justmac]

I  bought a 2008 glide with a SE 103 kit, V&H true duels, SE race tuner and AC and Anderws 37 g gear cams. NO head work yet. I finally took it in to have a dyno tune and the numbers are not what I was told they should be. 96tq 78hp

I took it back and they found a recall on a fuel filter which was causing the bike to stumble on take off. they retuned it after a new filter and now the numbers are 98TQ 75 HP.  Where the hell do I turn now, I knew the bike wasn't a rocket but I was expecting another 15 HP at least.  Where would you turn next, because something can't be right.

BTW --- this was a dealers build and tune.

[ederdelyi]

>>BTW --- this was a dealers build and tune<<

They are not all created equal. The build may be "O.K." and the "tune" may be nothing more than a canned map. Try to find a tuner with a good reputation in your area and go from there. Not all dealer build/tunes are bad, but I can't say they are all good either. I can't guarantee 15 more HP from that build with a good tune, but there should be some that was left on the table.

[Faast Ed]

If it were a dealer build, good chance they didn't check your deck height.

When I put my 103 jugs on my 08, it measured around .009 down the hole. That would not have helped you none.
Then figure your stock heads to hold you back some, add a stingy dyno to the mix (my local dealer has a stingy one), and my local dealer only sets afr and doesn't even touch the timing during tune.

IF you plan on doing your heads, get some .030 gaskets and have your heads shaved to optimize the compression for the cam. Then get a reputable tuner to tune it.

[se]

If it were a dealer build, good chance they didn't check your deck height.

When I put my 103 jugs on my 08, it measured around .009 down the hole. That would not have helped you none.
Then figure your stock heads to hold you back some, add a stingy dyno to the mix (my local dealer has a stingy one), and my local dealer only sets afr and doesn't even touch the timing during tune.

IF you plan on doing your heads, get some .030 gaskets and have your heads shaved to optimize the compression for the cam. Then get a reputable tuner to tune it.

absoluty Ed . first thing i would do is get it re-tuned. also you have stock heads , low compression and  a bad tune. get it tuned then start looking for more power.

[cody]

When you say deck height is that how far the piston is below the top of the cylinder (head gasket surface area) when the piston is at top dead center ?
If yes what is the measurement to shoot for ? 

[Faast Ed]

If yes what is the measurement to shoot for ? 

.000  (or within a few thou of that).

When you say deck height is that how far the piston is below the top of the cylinder (head gasket surface area) when the piston is at top dead center ?

Yes.

[ederdelyi]

>>.000  (or within a few thou of that)<<

0 +/- 0 :>)

[Scramjet]

Please post the dyno sheet.  Your HP could be down due to stoping the pull before the rev limit.  Also the HP could be uncorrected and low.  May be the tune.  Try checking CCP and compare to the expected CCP of about 180 psi.  Your quench is likely -.008 piston depth plus .052 head gasket which equals .060".  The good news is that the compression may be about right for the Andrews 37 cam.  You are right, it should be up some on HP.

Your stock heads and TB are good to about 110.

The dyno sheet may clear some things up.

B

[Don D]

The 08 touring bikes are proving to be a bigger challenge. In 07 despite the larger motor and an easy upgrade to 103" we just didn't see the associated power and torque we traditionally had from the previous years. Of course headwork, cams and the traditional gear helps but they are much harder to wring the power out.
When I spoke to Mike Roland and on the old HTT we discussed the reasons such as the new 6sp gear box and sumping plus gearing issues (parasitic losses). Mike was telling me the new bike was topping out much less than the previous year identical builds.
The 08 adds ETC and on a stock bike it is OK. Add a cam and other mods then many complain about stumbling. Power commander is hung up on this issue with no good resolution as far as I can see. All they can do is fool with timing +\- and fuel +\- and they eliminmate the closed loop function. The 08 in closed loop is not a mile off in the low speed ranges but IMO making the throttle closer to 1:1 is a good move. This is a software setting in the SEST or TTS. Others have reported better response and the stumble (can be dangerous!!!) gone when the ETC is programed to work close to the same as cable control. Getting the power out of the "A" motor 08 is not too hard up to about 100/100 in a 103" if a few concepts are followed. These bikes (really 06 up) are very sensitive to the pipe in non-stock configuration when a decent cam is added. Will stay out of the theorys but have talked to my colleagues about this and got buy-in from most. Rule of thumb shorter cams are better because with a 103" the TB becomes the constraint. Go too big on the cam and it looses bottom end and runs out of air on top with any set of heads. Many of the successful 08 FL builds have been done without headwork or just "Blueprint" head jobs. With 0 deck the CR with flatops is now close to 10/1 which is fine for many cams including the 37h.
What to do now?
First check the squish the best you can through the spark plug hole with solder. Check the cranking compression. These items will give a little more data for a game plan. See the 96/96 hp/tq thread and read what to ask the dyno tuner on an interview. Assuming the compression is on par a good tuner is a must, one that will work an advanced map both cylinders tuned and will work the timing. The timing is way slow on these touring models, part of the emission scheme. What mufflers are you running on the V&H duals? There are not that many that work well. I know of one tuner that has removed big baffle Rushs and Hookers and accomplished big gains by useing Traps. Other mufflers that seem to be decent are V&H Classics. There are more of course but a good 2 into 1 will be better even with the mild build.
Just a little food for thought and a start to a resolution hopefully

[Justmac]

Please post the dyno sheet.  Your HP could be down due to stoping the pull before the rev limit.  Also the HP could be uncorrected and low.  May be the tune.  Try checking CCP and compare to the expected CCP of about 180 psi.  Your quench is likely -.008 piston depth plus .052 head gasket which equals .060".  The good news is that the compression may be about right for the Andrews 37 cam.  You are right, it should be up some on HP.

Your stock heads and TB are good to about 110.

The dyno sheet may clear some things up.

B

I wish I could post my dyno sheet but I threw them away right after I got em. The bike has V&H megaphones mufflers. Without any head work and presuming I can find a good tuner approxamatly what HP should the engine be making.  Is my thinking wrong that another 10 hp should be easy?  I don't want to spend another $350-400 for another tune to only gain 2-3 HP.  I didn't pick the components, I bought the bike new with everything installed last winter. They never dynoed it till spring when I had a few K miles on it. When I bought the bike the dealer was telling me it should be around 100/100 which I thought was BS, but 75HP is just a "stage one" 

[Tsani]

Deweysheads,
Could you expand on the 6 speed gear box issue? That caught my interest. Thanks.

[Scramjet]

The 98TQ sounds about right.  The 75HP does not sound right.  My guess is that it should be around 90 with that cam and compression pulling up to 6200 and a good exhaust.  Remember, HP can be thought of as torque at higher RPM.  Does the torque curve falls off early?  Did the operator stop the WOT pull early?

B

[Justmac]

The 98TQ sounds about right.  The 75HP does not sound right.  My guess is that it should be around 90 with that cam and compression pulling up to 6200 and a good exhaust.  Remember, HP can be thought of as torque at higher RPM.  Does the torque curve falls off early?  Did the operator stop the WOT pull early?

B

Thanks, I'm not sure how or why it came back with the numbers it did but I'm going to take it back and there going to do another dyno free    All I remember is the tech handing me the dyno sheet and trying to explain that the cams were wrong. I asked WTF did they pick and install them ? He was to busy trying to sell me on a set of SE 255.
I'm going to use the info I get here to make them correct anything that should have been part of a "stage 2" since thats how they sold the bike. There stage two was a package and it sounds like it's missing some very important steps.

[Bakon]

I thought the Donut  (54H) was going to be the new 37 in the 96/103 bikes (07 & 08).  The 06 bikes still seem to be .510 lift cam bikes with stock heads. The newer bikes were reported to take .550 lift bolt in. Restrictive stock or not, I am surprised to see the bolt in craze not going to the highest lift the stock springs will take. Dewey, Hillside or anyone else thoughts on stock bolt in lifts?  95's running 37 cams were always breaking 90 hp, but the old 37b  closed at 42 degrees on the intake.

[odotb]

JustMac,
  If your shop uses an EDDY current dyno, your numbers will be down by 10% to 15%.

[Justmac]

JustMac,
  If your shop uses an EDDY current dyno, your numbers will be down by 10% to 15%.

15% would mean another 10hp which is closer to what I was expecting. I'll call today and see if they will tell me what kind of dyno there using
Thanks
Mac

[Wingnut]

The Andrews 37 cam has always pulled very good #s in a 95ci set-up.  I'm running them with the V&H duels in a 95, 104/95.  I think the .030 gasket is a must especially with the stock heads (keep in mind the 06 style heads are not that bad in a mild build such as this) Tuning, tuning, tuning.  I really don't know what dealers are doing in this department. Not to steal the thread, but are there any others out there using the 37s in a 103 and how are they working for you?  Certain cams shine in certain set-ups and I just have not herd about the 37s in 103s. The 54 may be a better choice for the different stroke of the 103.  Thus the donut build.

[Don D]

I detailed part of the reasons above why I thought the 6 speed bikes were not reaching the same dyno numbers. Parasitic losses caused by the transmission is one, and more than one owner has documented sumping to some degree even when all components were is top condition and installed properly. The new bikes just don't reach the same numbers typically. Tman was the first to make me aware of this when the 07 bikes first were released.

On bolt-in cams they are that, the manufacturer / designer not only works with the valvespring but the stock head airflow constraints to give it his best shot at an improvement. Added lift is not often needed or adds any benefit over .500. Much more to the story anyway with the lobe centers, LSA, overlap and TDC lifts and the head pipe and TB. There are very few cams that are purposely designed for a stock motor that really perform well when the stops are pulled out. Just pulled an S&S 510 for that reason.

[Bakon]

Where do the 06 and up heads quit flowing without work?

[Justmac]

I called the dealer and found out there dyno is not an EDDY current dyno and I asked if they worked on the timing and the guy that pulled the dyno results said he wasn't sure. All he could see is they adjusted the fuel/air. He also was saying they don't have a map with Andrews cams so they used one with the 204s which he said are simular except for timing.
I'm following him to this point but then he says that adjusting the timing if it would need it would only gaim me 1-2 more HP [is this correct?] And he said switching to the 204s would gain me close to 15 more hp and put me at or near the 90hp. IF the 204s are close to the 37s except for timing how can they give me another 15 hp?
I trust you guys more than the dealer but can you please dumb it down a little for me   

[Faast Ed]

I ran 204's before. They are advanced 8 degrees out of the box.
Back then I was told that if you used and -4 advance key they'd be almost the same as the 37's.
The 37's were known to be slightly better, but close.

IF your tuner used a map for 204's, the timing will be way off for the 37's!!!
You desperately need to add a few degrees timing (at the least).

My pc map had negative numbers in the top two throt positions! (for the 204's)  -2,-3

[Bakon]

204's close at 34 degrees, 37's at 38 degrees. Generally an earlier intake produces more bottom end at the cost of high end when comparing like lifts and duration cams. The early intake is usually for baggers at two up riding who put along. A late intake close is usually gien to later powerband, so can be soft down low and strong at the end with higher hp numbers. That's the dumbed down version.

No going to a 204 from a 37 should not give more hp, due to earlier close, but if they have a proper tuned 204 to a bad tuned 37, well probably.

The 8 degrees are probably comparing to the old 37b which closed at 42 degrees on the intake.

[Faast Ed]

The 8 degrees are probably comparing to the old 37b which closed at 42 degrees on the intake.

Indeed it was.  That was the only 37's that I knew at the time and for all I know, the new ones might be dogs.  The older version 37 was a known good cam.

Either one ain't gonna work worth a darn with 204 timing.

[Don D]

Where do the 06 and up heads quit flowing without work?

They stop increasing the flow rate for the most part at ~.500

[Bakon]

That's a shame. How much work or cost in genral to get them to flow to the .550 the springs will take? They are stock .550 ?