REPRINT FROM OLD HTT: V-Thunder or Ev27 Cam???? &&& Installation Questions

[ClassicRider2002]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A REPRINT TOPIC FROM "OLD" HTT

I have saved many great topical discussions as "links" over the years and would hate to see these lost, so I am reprinting this TOPIC here, which may "perhaps" help some.

TOPIC:  V~Thunder Or Ev27 CAM? & Installation Questions  07-03-05


From: ClassicRider2002  (Original Message) Sent: 7/3/2005 2:27 AM   Message 1 of 14 in Discussion

I am 160 lbs, 1999 FXR2, 6,000 miles on bike, bike weighs in at 575 wet

modifications to bike have been:
Vance & Hines Pro Pipe , 29008-90A Evolution 1340 High Flow Air Cleaner 29310-93 Cylinder Head Breather Manifold Kit, 27094-88 Jet needle/carb needle Sportster 175, 27170-89 45 slow Idle Jet.
No intentions of ever modifying the bike beyond this "bolt in" cam.

Riding Style:
90% "one up" riding
75% riding in mountains from 4,500 ft up to 8,000-11,000 ft.
25% riding flat lands 4,900 feet

As we all know when riding in the mountains you are lucky to get over 50 mph…lots of turns and twists….so lots of grabbing the throttle……on the throttle off the throttle…..

I would say torque is more important than horsepower to me…I am looking for the “best” “mild cam” I could put in…..looking for aggressiveness in the cam while having the stability of reliablity….realizing it’s all relative to how one interprets wanting more torque….In other words I am looking for the most aggressive cam in the range of starting from stop up to around 4,000 rpm or so….

I am curious what would “stock” give me right now? ….Hoping for reliability and the most fun I can get without modifying anything else…..This bike is a keeper for me…..so I basically just looking for a little more "pop" persay....

I will be doing this modification with my son-in-law...

I have gone back through all of the available posts under the evo 1340 and read about “cam” topics…..going all the way back to 2002.…so for three years there were approximately 42 posts about cams give or take….the two most talked about cams were the EV-27 and the V-Thunder 3010 and 3020 (grouping them as one). I believe after much debate within my own thoughts….that the v-thunder 3010 makes sense for me…..but I am hoping for some input on this please…. So any comments?

Next.....Push Rods....and after reading the posts I am left with questions about these as well...?    Which ones would you go with?  Why?

A) V-Thunder
PART #7002R-KIT: $119.99  “Fast Timesâ,,¢â€ pushrods feature an innovative adjustment system which makes installation a snap on EVO Big Twins by eliminating the necessity to remove the rocker boxes. The adjuster portion of the pushrod features 4140 high strength steel, with an induction hardened tip for severe service applications

B) Andrews
EZ Install Pushrods DS-193852 Aluminum $154.95 DS-193851 Chrome molly $162.95 Adjustable Push Rods

C) S&S Quickee Adjustable Push Rods
DS-0928-0003 For 84-99 Evolution Big Twin w/ 80-98" displacement $171.95 Feature revolutionary design Threaded adjuster screws into the pushrod until the threads disengage and the adjuster simply slides into the pushrod, making installation or removal a snap Once the pushrod is installed and adjusted, the lock nut prevents the adjuster from moving The ball ends of the pushrods are drilled so that oil can flow through the pushrod     Note: S&S Quickee pushrods are designed especially for use with Evolution and Twin Cam style hydraulic tappets.

D) Screamin' Eagle Quick-Install Pushrod Kit For Evolution Chrome Molly17987-98A $99.95
Which one would you acquire out of these and why?

Next throughout the posts there was also a theme of suggesting making a change of your "stock"/"current" tappets given I have only 6,000 miles but I thought a new cam might as well do new tappets so it seems no one gets to excited with these....so perhaps one of these two?:

A) Screaming Eagle Tappets
The screaming eagle tappets incorporate a unique axle roller, and bearing design that increases durability and stability of the tappets. Works well with high horsepower applications
HD# 18568-98 Set of 4 = $259.95 or $65.00 each.

B) Replace Stock Tappets HD# 18523-86B $29.95 each

Next ….there is the topic of the BREATHER VALVE GEAR which is plastic along with the thrust washer………There was a post back on the 9th of February 2005 discussing whether one should change the Breather Valve Gear & thrust washer from the OEM "plastic" to "steel"…..to me it was interesting that only one such post discussed this “feature” in nearly 3 years…..so….I have a buddy that has mentioned to me that I should modify this from plastic to steel….the consensus of the post back in February was to leave it as plastic…..obviously there are those that feel it should be changed while others do not….it was interesting to me that the ones who thought it should remain mentioned that they would stay with plastic…..I find that very ironic….but perhaps that is another discussion for another time…..I actually was very surprised to learn that this “gear and washer” were indeed plastic and have learned that there are at least two options to modify this back to steel….thus for those of you that have made the modification from plastic to steel….which one would you put in, the OEM Part # is 2531082A.

BREATHER VALVE GEAR (STANDARD SIZE) JIMS® now offers a steel replacement breather valve gear for Big Twin. Made from the finest aerospace quality steel and CNC machined to JIMS® highest standards, for precise control of exhausting crank case pressure. Designed to replace the stock plastic breather valve gear. No.2337S - Use on Big Twin Late 1977-99 single cam only. 2005 J&P Cycles Big Book page 867 part number # 400-887 $72.99

OR

Steel Breather Valve Gear  S&S Corporation Kit comes with gear and spacer DS-194242 For L77-99 Big Twin $ 89.95 Dennis Kirk Part Number Is H30-240 $72.49 I found it in a 2004 Dennis Kirk Sales Catalog there…..

Which then leads me to this question….there was much discussion within the posts about how removing the “current” gear off of the “old” cam and putting the “current” gear back on to the new cam would perhaps offer the best “fit” and reduce any latent “noise”. So I was going to do that…..but THEN I got to thinking about well….WHAT IF I do in fact modify the “plastic” breather valve to a “steel” breather valve….would this then perhaps defeat the benefit of doing this? So I am asking for some input on this……would you just go ahead and by the cam with the gear anyway when purchasing the cam? Or would there still be a benefit to perhaps not doing that???

Also I am interested in knowing if there is support for actually removing and replacing the Lip Seal At End Of Gear Cover HD#83162-51 Oil Seal Bearing. If there is….what brand do I go back with the HD one or with an aftermarket one and which one?

If you do recommend replacing it will I really need this tool to remove and install:

BIG TWIN CAM SEAL INSTALLER AND REMOVER  Removes cam seal Installs cam seal Removes cam cover Now, for the first time, only from JIMS®, you can install and remove a 1970-present cam seal without removing the cam cover. This tool is very simple to use. Just mount tool in cover, screw in the two removing screws, turn center, and out comes the cam seal. The new seal is pressed in with the same tool, square and flat for a no leak fit. This tool will also remove cam cover from case. No.2243 - Use on Big Twin 1970-present single cam only.

Next I realize that I will need to replace the “stock” bearing…..and put in a Torrington bearing…..is this the tool I need:

BIG TWIN CAM BEARING PULLER Use to remove inner cam bearing without splitting cases. Easily pulls bearing from case, also keeps rollers from coming out during removal. No.95760-TB - Use on Big Twin 1958-present  single cam only. (Note: Includes Aftermarket and S&S® motors.)  PART # DESC. Suggested Retail DS-196156 For 58-99 Big Twin, except Twin Cam 88 $ 120.95

And then there is this tool….they say for the installation of the Torrington bearing…..will I need this one too or how can I install WITHOUT damage to the bearing:

INNER CAM BEARING INSTALLATION TOOL This tool easily presses the inner cam bearing smoothly into the right case with the cases assembled to the proper depth. Use JIMS® tool No.95760-TB to remove bearing. No.2188 - Use on Big Twin 1958-present single cam only.     DS-197047 For 58-99 Big Twin models, except Twin Cam 88 $93.95

And then to remove the pinion gear there also another jims tool and do I have to use this to get this gear off or is there another way to successfully remove this without either damaging anything or the “risking” of damaging anything:

BIG TWIN PINION GEAR LOCKER TOOL Use to lock pinion gear, necessary to torque the pinion nut. Tool is simple to use, just align underneath gear and screw into case. Use JIMS® tool No.94555-55A to tighten pinion nut. Instruction sheet Used to lock pinion gear when torquing the pinion gear nut Simple to use; just align underneath gear and screw into case With Big Twin tool, use DS-196147 to tighten pinion nut

Which now brings me to another discussion…….there are these two tools:

E-Z Cam Gear Tool produced by Yankee Engunity Used to press the OEM cam gear on a new cam and maintain the correct cam gear lash and timing  Can also be used to alter the cam timing for improved performance  Cam gear degree index pins, camshaft index pins with easy-to-follow instructions included  P/N DESC. Suggested Retail DS-198720 For 70-99 74"/80" Big Twins $ 189.95

CAM GEAR ALIGNMENT TOOL by Jim Tools This tool is designed to index the cam gear’s position while removing or installing the cam gear. This tool will allow you to accurately position and or reposition the cam gear from one camshaft to another, as well as allow you to retard or advance the gear’s position by up to 10 degrees with the accuracy of a ¼ a degree. No.1290 - Use on all Single Cam 1970-99. Use No. 1390 to remove cam gear.

Here are my questions about these tools…….first of all either of them going to successfully do the following:

There was some discussion previously in a couple of posts about how you could actually affect when a cam “came on” or comes on by changing the “timing” of it….for example let’s say that the 3010 V-Thunder cam comes on at 1,500 rpm…could you either use this tool or some other “technique” to actually cause the cam to “come on” say at 1,800 rpm….and if that’s the case and you could….then IF it normally would go off say at 4,000 rpm BUT THEN by changing the “timing” as just mentioned would you in fact then delay it going off say at 4,000 until say 4,300 rpm?  I hope I am making sense here…..

Is this ok for the bike or is this “bad” to do this to the bike? Ok let’s assume the tools would work to do what I just asked….is there really truly any benefit to do this? Especially for such a “mild cam”…….or would there be some logical benefit?

I have a few other questions but I will see how this goes for now.....

And I THOUGHT THIS WAS GOING TO BE AN EASY CAM TO INSTALL....there always seems to be a twist here or a twist there.....a decison here or a decision there.....a plastic part here or a steel part there....go figure....lol

Seriously thank you to you all!!!!!!   I do learn alot here!!!

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: mlwfx85 Sent: 7/3/2005 6:33 AM   Message 2 of 14 in Discussion
Classic,
You will also want to invest in the tappet block alignment tool. Cheap, and will ensure you get proper oil flow when done.
Looks like you have done your homework on the rest.  The rest is a matter of opinion, and most everyone will provides their.  I have run and liked the EV 27 in the past, but you will hear things from others. Enjoy the project.  Mark
   

From: triplate1 Sent: 7/3/2005 7:12 AM   Message 3 of 14 in Discussion   
You might consider the Crane 3020 ...nice smooth ramp all the way.


From: Evorider4 Sent: 7/3/2005 9:01 AM   Message 4 of 14 in Discussion
you cant go wrong with the 27 andrews. but search too the fuel comsuption.  sometimes we need to go far on a place with few gas stations. think about it. the Vthunder catalog says the 3010 has an excelent fuel mileage.
but search around there.
chico


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/3/2005 11:26 AM   Message 5 of 14 in Discussion
Thanks guys for your thoughts on the cam so far and thanks Mark for listing the alignment pins I will NEED.....I appreciate that...psst I just didn't mention them....lol can you believe that...lol...I know go figure.....

What about my other questions:

1) what about the pushrods, which ones? is there indeed a "Best One" that out of the 4 there that I mentioned or is there something else better?
2) what about the tappets which ones? 
3) what about the breather valve gear...steel vs plastic and which one?
4) Do I have the right bearing puller removal tool listed?
5) Do I need that tool that reinstalls the bearing to do this right (Inner Cam Bearing Installation Tool)?  completed without it?
6) Do I need the Pinion Locking tool?  Funny thing on this when I was in the the inner primary and taking off the compensating nut...and keeping the assembly from rotating.....everyone has their own tool...but I used a simple towel folded up several times and "stuffed" it in there no stress on the metal or anything.....so that's what I am wondering is there another way to do install the bearing WITHOUT having to have the tool.....I am not trying to be "cheap" but there is no sense purchasing something you don't need....right?
7) and what about modifying the timing with the final two tools that I listed?...and about whether that's a good idea or not? If you pop back up and read the last of my post this question will make more sense....

thanks....

I know I asked a lot of questions....heck you should have been the one to TYPE it all....LOL  Hoping to get some detailed responses.....what have other's done......that cam case is SOOOOO small and yet so MANY decisions are needed?

I really see these posts serving the greater good as well....because perhaps soon there will be another just like me looking for answers to the very same questions....

It is interesting to me and I said this in the original post....that hardly any discussions have occurred on the plastic breather valve....perhaps they are not failing...enough years definitely have gone by....or are they failing and others are just use to that persay....and what's happening if people are adding "cams" and whether they are working.....doesn't it seem a bit odd that HD added a plastic part that seems to be a very important part......things that make you go hmmmmm....

thanks everyone....

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: Rio-Dude Sent: 7/4/2005 8:07 AM    Message 6 of 14 in Discussion
I didn't notice much of a fuel mileage drop with my EV-27. Maybe 1-3 mpg if that. Reusing the cam gear will minimize any gear whine but if you are running straight pipes you will probably not notice much of a difference. If the timing tweak you are referring to is indexing the cam gear, leave that stuff to the pros.

The Screaming Eagle adjustables are fine unless you have a very high lift cam and spend a lot of time around the rev limiter. Make sure you get the "quick install" style and not just the "adjustable", otherwise you will be pulling rockers.

I had a tappet start rattling at 30k so that was reason enough not to go with HD parts again. I heard HD changed the design but I went with Jims big roller tappets.

I recall a post where someone mentioned that a bearing puller for a Chevy V-8 worked fine on the cam bearing. The puller was available for free from certain auto parts chains. Perhaps someone else can give you details.


From: RubenJ Sent: 7/5/2005 4:02 PM   Message 7 of 14 in Discussion
I have the EV27 cam on my 97 RK the cam pulls hard but it does click, I have been told that it closes the valves so fast that it makes noise, I would really think about getting it. I like the V-thunder cams, on there site they talk about making quite cames not like other companies. I will be changing mine when I get some money.  my2cents.  Ruben


From: RubenJ Sent: 7/5/2005 4:04 PM   Message 8 of 14 in Discussion
By the way I have a 30 over KB 10 1/2 :1 pistons jeted CV carb and slip-ons.
Ruben 


From: Hrlydv21301 Sent: 7/5/2005 10:08 PM   Message 9 of 14 in Discussion
I have installed more than a dozen V-Thunder 3010 cams and everyone really likes them. Very smooth power, quiet, and very good gas mileage. I've used them in FXR's and touring bikes alike. I have never had to change the cam gear on them as they have always been an exact match for the stock gear. I have had to change the gears on Crane and Andrews cams. Sounds like you're going in the right direction. Good luck and have fun.


From: 1992Fatty Sent: 7/6/2005 9:29 AM    Message 10 of 14 in Discussion
Thanks for that little tip Hrlydv21301 the gear swap was my only hang up on doing it myself. I'm planning on the 3010 for my fatboy. My plan was the 3010 with Crane Timesavers, new H-D lifters bike has just over 30k on it so I figure it couldn't hurt. 92's have the Timken bearing already so I should be good to go. Kent

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/6/2005 11:21 AM   Message 11 of 14 in Discussion
Hrlydv21301 
<<<<< I have installed more than a dozen V-Thunder 3010 cams and everyone really likes them. Very smooth power, quiet, and very good gas mileage.

I've used them in FXR's and touring bikes alike. I have never had to change the cam gear on them as they have always been an exact match for the stock gear. >>>>>


Thank you for your help and INPUT!!! Greatly appreciated.....

There is one thing I am actually confused about however could you please clarifiy....by what you said about "I have never had to change the cam gear on them as they have always been an exact match for the stock gear" are you saying you buy the 3010 cam and the gear as one piece from V~Thunder and install OR are you saying that you buy the cam only (without the gear attached) and take the old gear off of the old cam and then put the old gear on the new cam?  Sorry I am lost in what you were saying......

Thank you for though for everything else it seems the 3010 is the way to go.....and I am committed to that now.....which is great...

Regards,

"Classic"

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/7/2005 1:23 AM   Message 12 of 14 in Discussion
Alright still some more questions...

Let's say you feel you want to replace the oil seal located in the cam case....since you are already in there.....

It only makes sense that while you are in the cam case to replace a $6.00 -$8.00 seal....I know that JIMS TOOLS makes a replacement seal for HD# 83162-51 with a part number called: JIMS TOOLS  Camshaft Seal / Lip Seal At End Of Gear Cover Replaces HD#  83162-51 and JIMS part number is # 2169.  There is a photo of one located at J&P Cycles Page 480 2005 “Big Book Catalog”  Part # 431-646 for  $7.99.  Would you go with the OEM seal replacement or JIMS TOOLS or perhaps a "JAMES OIL SEAL? 

Also do you really NEED the following tool to remove the old seal and install the new one:

BIG TWIN CAM SEAL
INSTALLER AND REMOVER
 Removes cam seal
 Installs cam seal
 Removes cam cover
Now, for the first time, only from JIMS®, you can install and remove a 1970-present cam seal without removing the cam cover. This tool is very simple to use. Just mount tool in cover, screw in the two removing screws, turn center, and out comes the cam seal. The new seal is pressed in with the same tool, square and flat for a no leak fit. This tool will also remove cam cover from case. No.2243 - Use on Big Twin 1970-present single cam only.
PART # DESC. Suggested Retail DS-197036 For 70-99 Big Twins, except Twin Cam 88 $98.95

So how do you remove the seal and put a new one without this tool?   Has anyone done it?

---------------------------------------

So let's say you DO want to REUSE your "stock" cam gear how are you going to accomplish this in your garage?   Have any of you done this ONCE again without a specific "TOOL" like from let's say a JIMS TOOLS or another tool perhaps.....What have you all done?

Or does everyone simply take this to your local machine shop or indy shop and have them pull the gear off your "stock" cam and then press it on to your new cam?
Regards,

"Classic"


From: JohnD Sent: 7/9/2005 9:07 AM   Message 13 of 14 in Discussion
I have the V-thunder 3020 in my 80in softail. I too ride in the under 4000 rpm range as I live in the Ozarks. I chose this because they listed it as good for a bagger, two up. This means it is a good torque cam. I lug my bike more than I should but it pulls well in the hills and twisties, I have 10-1 pistons so I had to drop some timing advance to keep from pinging but didn't notice any loss in power I ride mostly 1 up on a light bike also and love the torque range, and it quieter than most andrews cams.
John


From: dspeedwobble Sent: 7/9/2005 5:27 PM   Message 14 of 14 in Discussion
I installed an EV27 about 5,000miles ago using the original cam gear,there is NO extra noise period, also 3 of my mates have the same install and no noise either. Done carefully I haven't seen any problems and it works well,   getting 56mpg taking it easy and down to 48 at 75mph and a head wind............'95FXD

[ClassicRider2002]

Anything added beyond this point is new information.

Regards,

"Classic"