Oiling system

[04customking]

Now that the bike is put away I want to get this oil sumping problem solved. I've burnished the seats and replaced the balls and springs, then after that didn't change anything I re-cut the seats at work and again new balls and no change. Today I pulled the cam cover off and wanted to fill the tank and watch to see if I could see oil passing through. While messing around I had the breather gear removed , pulled the sparkplugs and kicked it through slowly. What baffled me was that oil started flowing out of the passage behind the breather gear. Where would that be coming from. It was used oil by the color, not the fresh I just put in the tank but I don't know where that passage goes to. It doesn't seem right to me. Help... Any suggestions as to what else to check?

[Harpo]

The oil entering the breather gear cavity is oil that is slung from the flywheels.

[04customking]

Ok, that makes sense. I guess I'm not thinking this through. I was thinking there shouldn't be any oil to speak of in the crankcase because I ran the bike around the block a few times and then immediately drained the oil. My mind was telling me that it should have been scavanged out. So thanks for clearing that up. Now if I could figure out how it's getting there in the first place. Thanks Harpo.

[CraigArizona85248]

Jim,

Even though you drove around and scavanged the oil from the bottom end, parked it and immediately drained the oil, you are going to end up with some in your bottom end.  While you were driving around there was oil being fed to the topend for the valves and rockers.  When you shut off the bike, this oil drained from the topend down the return gallies in each head and was deposited in the bottom of the crank case.  When you kicked over the bike, this oil (probably just a couple of ounces) was picked up by the fly wheels and then slung off and you saw it coming out the passage behind the breather gear.

I can't remember, are you running outside oil supply lines to your topend?

-Craig

[04customking]

Thanks Craig. No I'm not running outside oil lines. I've cleaned this pump up each time it's been off and gone over it with a fine tooth comb and can't see anything wrong. Today I'll clean it all up again, assemble it, and try to low pressure test it and see if air blows right through it. Maybe I can find what's happening. If I was confident that the S&S pump would correct the sumping I would get one but I do like the look of the stock pump and lines plus the fact that I can't find a problem with it.

[wreck74]

S&S oil pump is a good thing for the old panhead engine. And you don't have to drill any holes in the case. It's a bolt-on improvement.

[04customking]

I guess I'll just buy one. At this point I'm just pissed that I can't seem to find the problem. I've been out there this morning trying to get the ball to leak and I can't. I can't see anything at all to let oil in the case. There doesn't appear to be anything suspect or even the least bit questionable. I understand that oil has to pass through the ball to get from the tank to the case without something being cracked or drilled and neither is the case. Right now I have the ball only on its seat with no spring behind it and the passage above it with ATF fluid. Been sitting there for an hour at least but not a hint of any oil going by the ball. I don't know of any other checks I can do. Hard to believe that 60 wt oil could push it off or leak by from the bottom with the spring in it.
Jim

[wreck74]

Maybe the gaskets ?

[04customking]

I looked at the gaskets very closely thinking maybe oil was leaking by or the holes were wrong but all looks good. The gasket is imprinted all around it so I know that wasn't it. I had the pump set up straight with the ATF behind the ball. After a full day it did leak past but that isn't a very proper test. I was pulling at straws. I will more than likely just order a pump Monday and hopefully be done with it. It just annoys me when I can't find a rational reason for something but I can't think of any other way to test it.
If I put it all back together without the cam chest cover on and put oil back in like I originally planned and let it sit, I should see oil coming into the chest somewhere shouldn't I? There are two pressure ports on the block. One goes to the lifter blocks and the other goes to the cover to feed the pinion and rod bearings correct? I should eventually see oil coming from somewhere. Speaking of the cover, I suspect it's correct, but beneath the pinion bushing is a hole that exits the side of the cover. Is that supposed to be open so that oil can spurt out into the camchest? Mine is open as I "think" it should be but in my head I can make a case for not being open too. Thanks for the help, and Merry Christmas to everyone.

[BB]

Customking,I am guessing your problem is the engine is puking oil at start up?The problem my not be the oil pump.Let see if we can answer some of your questions . You asked about the oil coming from breather gear area.The fly wheels pick up the oil and are scraped off by the scraper in the crank case . It has about a .010 air gap to the fly wheels.Now the breather gear is timed to the engine at about 10 degrees BTDC .Meaning the breather window is opening . As the piston come down the area in the crank case gets smaller and the air under the pistons go out the open breather gear window.The air pushes the oil out of the crank case.This oil is returned by the return side of the oil pump.If we have to much clearance at the rocker,tappets or other internal leaks it will over oil and may not return all the oil.Causing it to over load at start up and push out the breather on a lower breather engine. Most single cam HD engine oil valve train first and rod last.I have seen a lot of people spend a lot of time on the check ball area and not fix the problem .The old pump are weak on returning oil . If you have high restriction on your return like coolers or wrong oil filter it can cause the problem too.Your question on the hole in the pinion bushing is , there are two styles of oil systems used . A end oiler and a side oiler.It is where the oil is feed to the pinion shaft.End oiler came in the early "70".It sounds like you have a side oiler.The pinion shaft will have a hole in the side of the shaft and the pinion bushing will have a hole in the side of it.End oiler shafts are open at the end.I guess the bottom line is a new oil pump may fix the effects and not the real problem . The new style oil pumps return the oil much better and can keep up with the over oiling.

[04customking]

Thanks BB. I've been figuring this system out. I wish I had spent more time while it was apart to trace it all out. The clearances on everything were checked when I did the motor. The one point you bring up is the restrictions. I do have an aftermarket oil tank with a filter built in. It takes a shovel filter which shouldn't be much of a restriction but... Clearances on rockers and blocks were tight. I know I have the side oil pinion. My question about it if the hole in the cover should be open to excess oil while the pinion hole is not lined up for the oil. It shouldn't be much with proper bushing clearance but it's just something that I was wondering. Thanks for your explaining things for me.
Jim

[BB]

Jim , your welcome .The clearance on the pinion shaft to bushing is very close.Working from memory I think it is .001 , at that clearance oil leakages is not much.The shovel style oil filter on a good oil pump will be ok.Hope this helps in your trouble shooting.Have a nice day.

[04customking]

Thanks, you too.