is this guy for real?

[skyhook]

I'm attaching an email from my guru...I'm thinking of going to work for him...I trust your opinions and would like to know what you think...this was a response to a question of what to do with cvo 110 heads




What I need to do is measure the port volume on these heads. I have seen pictures, have not had a set in my hands yet. I pioneered that chamber design back in 1984 on evo heads. The H.D. motor is not as sensitive to port volume as some would like you to believe. It is important but the short intake tract lets the motor see a small port even if it ground way out. What it does affect is the cam. Depending on what bike the motor is in (weight is a big factor in the engine combo) will determine the extent of the modifications and torque gains. For the most part the H.D. engineers are not stupid and have matched the port volume to the displacement O.K.

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION NOW  Most people get confused with this. I had a hard time explaining this to many of the best engine builders in nascar! And proved it on the dyno to all of them. Most engine builders think you need a larger port to make more peak power. You have to balance the port volume. In the old days most heads did not have enough meat in them to be able to be ported to large enough volume to get that balance. So of course as they ground them out they make more and more power untill they ground into the water jacket or fins.   

A normaly aspirated engine loses efficiency as rpm's increase above peak torque.(That is why I will have fuel and air flow meter on my dyno) As rpm's increase there is less time to fill the cylinder with air. Thus less bang per powerpulse.So how come horsepower goes up as tq. falls off? The best way to explain is by example.

WE have a single cylinder engine that makes 1 hp per powerpulse at 1000 rpm thus producing 500 hp in 1 minute (4 stroke fires every other stroke) Now we change porting + cam now the motor will spin to 2000 rpm but to get it to do that we shrunk the port or put in a smaller cam. As a result we lose tq. but pick up hp so now our motor makes .75 HP per powerpulse less effecent BUT we made 750 hp in the same period of time. Who wins that race?

A too large port kills velocity, too small is a restriction, NOTE we can get away with a larger port on an injected motor ( with injectors pointed at the valve) because the air now does not have to carry it's big fat buddy (fuel) with it. This depending on port size would lower the rpm point of peak tq.

The hard part of building engines is balancing the port size with cam to obtain the tq. and hp. in range you want. A typical bandaid fix is to use a smaller cam when the ports are too big or a bigger cam with too small a port, both have major drawbacks.

HD has figured this out and is using bigger ports to make tq. and limiting the peak power as a result. I would not weld in the chambers or the port but mill the head to increase C.R. then balance with the approrate cam. Welding the chamber will hurt flow. I would only weld the port if it was huge. The other big factor in making tq. is maximizing ignition timing, just a few degrees of timing will pick up as much as 5 or 6 ft lbs. This is where chamber shape, size, dual plugs, C.R. and a dyno come into play. You can see that increasing and decreasing the port size will effect the point (rpm) and amount at which you will see peak Tq. and HP.

I would try flow testing $75.00 Includes checking port volume. C.C ing the chambers and milling the heads setting C.R, $80.00. Disassembly, cleaning and assembly $75.00 / $95.00 if we install hi lift springs. Blue printing would not be a bad idea, then clean up the areas @ the seats for better throttle response. 275.00 Upon dissassembly if we see any problems(pitted seats, worn guides ect.) we will call the customer. With the flow, volume and compression ratio data in hand then we can make a proper cam choice. The price of course depends on the type of cam. We will need the heads + Pistons and the deck height (how far the piston sits down in the bore.) He will need to dyno it afterwards to see the full potential of the work. Turn around 7 days after I recieve them.

   

             

   

[sbcharlie]

no its not me. thanks sbc

[Admiral Akbar]

"I hard a hard time explainig this many of the best engine builders in nascar! "

I can understand this because it is obvious that he has not had any formal training.. His 1 hp per rpm discussion should really be about torque... but he seems to have the understanding that RPM can increase HP if torque is held up. He calls it 1 hp at 1 power pulse.. This is really torque after you take away the time and distance..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower

He has the right idea about port velocity... but talks in general terms.. If he's has a recipe that works and does good work, you could use him.. Don't ask to give a lecture at a university though..

I'd ask him what CCes he likes to use, what pistons should be used and what cams, carbs, pipes should be selected.. You could make a better determination there.. If he don't know, then find someone with more direct experience.. He may have worked on EVOs back in 84 but a lot has changed since then.

Max

[ederdelyi]

I would have missed this had my travel plans not been delayed 'til next week, quite a read :>)

While there are smatterings of truth in what he's trying to say, it's difficult to judge if it's just a lack of communication skills and formal training or ...?

Ya never know, the guy might be a reincarnation of "Smoky" or someone like him. I'd certainly want some references from others who have used his services and some real world results to compare against. If he is good he needs a PR rep to hawk his wares for him!

[Jeffd]

Should be easy to figure out who he is.
"I poinered that chamber design back in 1984 on evo heads. The H.D. motor is not as sensitive to port volume as some would like you to beleve."

I seem to recall reading that line or one similar from someone who posted on the old HTT site.  If I remember correctly or if I am thinking of the right person he was very smart, butted heads with some of the other Gurus and either got kicked off or left on his own accord.   I look at the gramatical errors and it appears that they were made by someone who's brain is moving/thinking way faster than his digits can travel LOL.

[Don D]

Skyhook
What are your goals and expectations for the 110? That is a very important consideration
Your colleague needs to look at a 110 head first hand then report back. I have and have flow tested them. I was not impressed, and understand I would be the first one to embrace them if I liked what I saw. Of course they can be reworked but the cost VS other alternatives needs to be weighed. The stock 99-05 head can be made to work quite well in the right hands (not just mine) for not a lot of money.

Your colleague speaks about the MOCO
"HD has figured this out and is using bigger ports to make tq. and limiting the peak power as a result".
I suggest that they are focusing on meeting EPA regulations and producing a product that has high availability through the warranty period (low warranty costs to them), all at the same time adding share holder value and garnering new customer demographics. Worthy goals not saying they get high marks in all of that. But EPA is mandatory. Really why change anything, invest in new head casting tooling and production, or any of that if HP and TQ were an important part of the equation. I suggest IMO they are just wanting to maintain current HP and TQ levels while attaining compliance with new tighter standards, all at the same time producing a product that looks legacy and doesn't burn to the ground in 2 years or less.

[skyhook]

the guy is al taylor...you may remember him from vtf couple years back...actually he ported the heads on the wife's '07 dyna which was built to my recipe(prolly a mistake as I'm no smokey!)...the 96" motor made 94/97 sae 5th gear dj250i basic coarse resolution tune...I'm working on putting him a website together and being his salesman, just wanted you guys' take on his ideas...oh, and my 110 is already built and running great, the heads in question are for a potential customer...thanks fellas for the help!!!!

[KingofCubes]

Here is what we got on our first 110 build by welding and cnc porting and welding the combustion chambers to restore squish area, with stock pistons and TB:
Torque went from 97 to 122
Horse went from 80 to 118
5th gear pull 2.25 seconds quicker
Engine cooled down a heap
07 FLHRSEI
This guy loves the personality of this build.

[RevFastEddy]

I dont walk on water but there is some truth to what is said. SOME... reality is he might be better addressing torque vs HP with the statements but cam timing and lift have more effect on port volume than one might imagine.  Dewey has it right... The statement is not completely addressing ALL the factors.

[ederdelyi]

In no way were my comments meant to be demeaning. Port volume is a common topic with other tech forums in the car world. The short ports and runners in the HD motor make this less significant as there is little to no intake tuning from intake resonance or secondary intake tuning, IMO, IME. In fact, there is not a Hell of a lot of intake inertia tuning in these motors either, especially at the low RPM that most want the power tp be developed at. It's part of what makes it tougher to develop "high" TQ/HP per CI out of these things.

Like I said, one never really knows for sure when you see stuff on the Internet. Some can run a die grinder, some can run a keyboard, some can do both, some can do neither!

Walk on water? Not hard at all ... turds float :>)

[skyhook]

cool, this is the kind of debate I was hoping for...went back and edited a little, not for content, just spelling, punctuation, etc

[x52gnr]

     

[GoFast.....]

volume and velocity are two things that are always going to matter and the only to make up for to much volume is to throw compression at but that does not mean it that right head for a guys bike.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

 

[skyhook]

one thing that I find unusual is the dual plug comment...I thought that solution went the way of the shovelhead?

[Admiral Akbar]

volume and velocity are two things that are always going to matter and the only to make up for to much volume is to throw compression at but that does not mean it that right head for a guys bike.

Above is a little over my head.. 

I repmember Al. He and I got in an arguement about domed pistons and he more or less won though I would have liked to have seen his data.

Max.

[GoFast.....]

volume and velocity are two things that are always going to matter and the only to make up for to much volume is to throw compression at but that does not mean it that right head for a guys bike.

Thats the point Max. The guy is saying nothing that hasn't been said years ago


Above is a little over my head.. 

I repmember Al. He and I got in an arguement about domed pistons and he more or less won though I would have liked to have seen his data.

Max.

[jimlibo]

I Don't know about your intent Skyhook. But your actions are distasteful at best.

[ederdelyi]

One of many discussions regarding port volume, velocity, port cross sectional area, etc.:

http://books.google.com/books?id=GUC52-afG5EC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=intake+port+volume&source=web&ots=HZ-UDqfD3y&sig=bLDhQ1wuPyNOKqEtnSysEbpZK8Y&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result

Also, refer to the Denish V-Twin series for more on the subject.

EDIT: One more reference. It's all been said before. The real key is targeting the result desired and matching all the components to achieve that result:

http://www.corvettefever.com/techarticles/corp_0807_brodix_hvh_big_block_corvette_heads/index.html



Dual plugging was one way to help the flame front on certain chamber/piston combos. Usually it was with pop up pistons that had a very large dome and the shape actually impeded the flame propagation. With a bathtub or wedge chamber and the low domed pistons typically used with them this is not usually an issue.

[skyhook]

jimlibo,
my intent is to use the forum as a soundboard...is my guru a master builder?...of course I have his permission to quote him...also must admit I'm trying to get his name out there...so what is it you find distasteful?

[ejk_dyna]

<<I repmember Al. He and I got in an arguement about domed pistons and he more or less won though I would have liked to have seen his data. >>

  oh yeah now i rember who this guy is...

[Faast Ed]

jimlibo,
my intent is to use the forum as a soundboard...is my guru a master builder?...of course I have his permission to quote him...also must admit I'm trying to get his name out there...so what is it you find distasteful?

.....I'm trying to get his name out there....

I think you are the first poster to ever do that on HTT (I lie sometimes-LOL!)

[skyhook]

I remember the dome piston debate...but I thought it was on vtf...max are you also on vtf?...before I take the plunge and go into business with al, if anyone has any first hand experience, please send me a private message

more from al:  The air cooled engine is extremely sensitive to temperature. We ran a stock tc88 engine on a superflow 901 engine dyno...as the head temp got as little as 15 degrees over optimum, hp would instantly drop 10% and continue to fall as temp went up. Some of this just the nature of the beast especially when the displacement increases and not the number of cylinders (such as the cvo 110 and trying to get past the EPA specs). The larger combustion chamber and semi-hemi design of the tc combine to produce a combustion chamber that is very sensitive to ignition timing and fuel air ratio. Thus with temperature, it can quickly get out of the range of efficient combustion and EPA specs.  It promotes slow flame propagation and detonation. Dual plugging helps. This allows us to retard timing keeping or even adding tq and hp and lessening the detonation. Aftermarket builders are not bound to the rules like the moco. Even though by law they are! Aftermarket builders break the rules and are able to extract that extra tq and hp. The factory is a bit hamstrung by the fact that they must adhere to the rules but does not want to give up the beloved air cooled 45 v twin. Note the slow acceptance of the v-rod. But the public demands more performance? Long live the aftermarket!!         

[Jeffd]

hey if you have a chance to go in with someone like Big Al Taylor use your own judgement don't rely on someone you do not even know typing on a keyboard LOL.  Best measure of his success is how long has he been doing what he is doing.  With some of these guys like Ederdelyi,hillside etc I would just be happy to sweep their shop floors hoping to pick up some knowledge

[POORBOY]

Good answer Jeffd