How to get BEST 'Home Made Tune?

[strokerjlk]

It really is folly (at least the way I see it) to not use it as the primary tool.

So long as all the trouble is being taken to do this privately, it just makes the best sense to do things in the proper order.  It should be quicker and more accurate.  Why intentionally dick things up 3 or 4 percent in places by reversing the order of your activities?

with all do respect.....making statements like this is really just your assumptions. if you had actually used both then maybe I could find something valid in your findings. I have done both and find it just the opposite. for you to make these claims ...would be like me making assumptions say about smart tune (SEST PROTUNER) something I have never used. I guess you did say (at least the way I see it) so I will just reply the same (at least the way I see it) I notice you said should before you made the statement about quicker and accurate so again that's you assumption. I will give you quicker since v-tune generates the ve's for you, until you have to extrapolate the cells you couldn't get to. as far as accurate we will just have to agree to disagree here.
I seem to be the minority here on this forum . but outside of this forum there are many more tuners using wide bands to tune then the handful that do. (EDIT: Should have said don't)  If it is all you have to street tune then by all means use it. if you want to tune all the cells then there are other ways.
I too love the Delphi system and think the TTS is the very best we have at this time to tune it. I just choose to go about it different.I never have had a dissatisfied customer YET LOL. I have however had customers come to me to fix there v-tuned bikes.  when I look at there maps..... the ones that can actually get them. I am amazed at how many of them are tuned to the canned map AFR ,timing, accel,decel,CLB. spark temp correction,closed throttle spark, throttle blade control,PE. NO CHANGES  just v-tuned ve's some extrapolation and there ya go. sorry more to it then that. JMO

[glens]

How do you find the opposite?  If you calibrate VEs open-loop with the broadbands first and then stick large CLBs in and go closed-loop, assuming they're all consistent values they'll cause the effective increase in VE values across the board.  Are you saying you've found the opposite to be true?  That the CLBs won't cause this?

I'm not calling this "a tune".  I'm calling it getting your VEs calibrated in such a way that the AFVs are centered in their ranges.  I might use the word "tune", but it's as a verb, not a noun.  It could be the very first step or it could be a follow-up after base spark timing optimization.  Nonetheless, this is precisely what v-tune was set up to do over a lot of VE table landscape.  It makes the most sense to me to use it since that's what the ECM will, as Steve said, "like".  I used the phrase "the ECM's idea of things" in my first "discussionary" post in this thread.  Even if you used median CLBs the ECM's idea of things might be different from the TS's idea of things, as I also said in that post: "If there are discrepancies between what the Delphi thinks it's doing AFR-wise and what the TwinScan is reading, I believe I'd opt for the Delphi's "train of thought"."

Are your feelings different about that?  If so, how so?

[FLTRI]

...outside of this forum there are many more tuners using wide bands to tune then the handful that do. If it is all you have to street tune then by all means use it. if you want to tune all the cells then there are other ways.
I too love the Delphi system and think the TTS is the very best we have at this time to tune it. I just choose to go about it different.I never have had a dissatisfied customer YET LOL. I have however had customers come to me to fix there v-tuned bikes.  when I look at there maps..... the ones that can actually get them. I am amazed at how many of them are tuned to the canned map AFR ,timing, accel,decel,CLB. spark temp correction,closed throttle spark, throttle blade control,PE. NO CHANGES  just v-tuned ve's some extrapolation and there ya go. sorry more to it then that...

Couldn't agree with this more,
Bob

[lonewolf]

Are your feelings different about that?  If so, how so?

Well I went back and checked with broadbands after vtuning (on dyno). I still like to conventionally do my ve 's.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[strokerjlk]

Are your feelings different about that?  If so, how so?

Well I went back and checked with broadbands after vtuning (on dyno). I still like to conventionally do my ve 's.

thanks Russel. sometimes A pic is worth a thousand words.

John
nice set up! after you get your TS. all you will need to do is connect the  high speed usb cable (that comes with the kit) to your monitor (mirror mounted  nice!) from the data logger. no laptop strapped on will be needed. 

[TXChop]

Chop, if I get this mounting system all worked out, and it does, in fact, work.... this 'mirror' mount will be able to go from Bike-to-bike.  At night... I think this will be GREAT for the V-Tune cells.

Haven't heard a word from Shawn at Dr V-Twin yet..... 

Man that looks great!!! Gotta get me a setup like that...

I ended up getting mine from ebay. Made another few data runs. Tuning a PCIII rigt now with it. Try to be super anal and hitting as many cells as possible. The bike is running better. The PCIII is much simpler though. TRying to get my AFR's exactly where i want them. Going to run a few runs on a local dyno to see how my afr adjustments went. Got a few guys askin me to tune theirs. They saw all the wiring hangin off the side and were curious.

[FLTRI]

...Knowing the ACTUAL AFRs, during break-in, is most important...

I cannot impress this point enough
Bob

[FLTRI]

Since stem mounted mirrors vibrate a bit at idle. Is this exaggerated or lessened with a monitor bolted to it?
Just curious,
Bob

[strokerjlk]

I have however had customers come to me to fix there v-tuned bikes.  when I look at there maps..... the ones that can actually get them. I am amazed at how many of them are tuned to the canned map AFR ,timing, accel,decel,CLB. spark temp correction,closed throttle spark, throttle blade control,PE. NO CHANGES  just v-tuned ve's some extrapolation and there ya go. sorry more to it then that...

Couldn't agree with this more,
Bob

You have me on this whole set-up.  Shawn shipped yesterday BTW.  But the folks and tunes you describe above isn't a FUNCTION of TTS, but rather the folks themselves, right?  Really not much to do with TTS, but the fact the folks didn't even TRY to understand.

Hey Russel, what's up?

not sure what you mean John. let me explain a little. I have had homemade tunes come in that were just plain wrong  weak , no throttle response, surging at idle and popping here and there on acceleration. then the decel pop ...o my. cant really fault them as they gave it there best shot.
on the other hand I help "as you know" guys from all over the country heck the world as far as that goes. guys are always PMing me and calling me from everywhere with problems with there dyno tunes. I am not complaining as I enjoy this very much (helping people) that is why I do this really, because so many people get SH*T on when they get a dyno tune. so back on topic  we e-mail back and forth maps ...even videos of the problem areas of there dyno tunes.
I have had the opportunity to see maps from most of the BIG  name tuners out there and even the small time guys that dont frequent the forums.LOL.what I see is really amazing.
so back to the V-tune on the dyno. I have seen tunes (maps) from the big guns that claim to tune complete....bottom line the ve's were v-tuned and nothing else touched. completely base map everywhere. I guess this goes back to your thread "how much for a proper tune" I think when you pay the price some guys charge you should get a complete tune. I am serious when I say some of these bikes you had to literally wind up to 3000 rpms to get them moving. I have the videos to prove it. sad really sad.

[strokerjlk]

John I don't have to think on it LOL. I don't believe the AFR line has to or needs to be straight......but you already knew that!
I can tell you though when they look like that (lonewolfs graph) throttle response is lousy. we are talking about the merits of v-tune or TS I though not TTS. I have no problem with TTS best tuner on the market for HD at this time. but V- TUNE until it is capable of tuning the whole map, not 40 % throttle and 80 kpa max,or is able to operate on wide bands so it doesn't heat up so fast. I spend 1/2 my time cooling the bike with it, (I know we are talking street tune) not dyno ...or are we hell I forget. ah hell forget it you are just  LOL.
How bout this .....offer two models one with all the toys,and one without v-tune,  data master, dyno whatever, etc... just the tuner for tuners

[Steve Cole]

I have no problem with TTS best tuner on the market for HD at this time. but V- TUNE until it is capable of tuning the whole map, not 40 % throttle and 80 kpa max,or is able to operate on wide bands so it doesn't heat up so fast.

I have no idea what you are doing to only be able to tune to 40% tps as that makes no sense at all. Let's look at what is going on here. MAP  running from 26 - 83 and V-tune will correct it when properly operated, so what range of the tune does that area cover? At sea level max MAP is ~100 kPa and min MAP is ~30 kPa for the engine operating range. Values below 30 kPa are typically decel only. Once the Throttle is open far enough to reach 83 kPa there is only a small amount left untuned 83 to 100 kPa. If you take the corrected values from 83 kPa and extend them to the end of the RPM row your going to find that they will be with .5 AFR of desired and always slight to the rich side which is just how we want it for safety. Now as far as it getting hot that just tells me you do not have near enough cooling fans moving air across the motor. Simple fix.... go buy a better fan!

Until Dyno operators are willing to step up to REAL Wide Band Sensors or purchase a system that correctly reads the Broad Band sensors with correction for temperature and pressure your not going to get much closer than +/- .5 AFR and with some of the current aftermarket meters we've tested that is +/- 1 AFR. We are more than willing to setup a system that allows a dyno operator to tune with true Wide Band Sensors but it's going to cost in the $20,000 range and every time we have discussed this there has been no one that is willing to sign up for it.

[rbabos]

But... this is a 'conversation' about the merits of TTS and other tuning methods, and NOT what some tuners do and don't do.  There are equally as bad of tuners using TS2, etc.  So... one should SLAM the Twin Scan because 'some' tuners do a crap job?  Nope... Just like saying that about v-tune?  Nope.    Another thing that COULD be one way or another?  Is Russel's v-tune AFR maps.  We, as humans, want everything to be pretty, so we THINK a straight line is best.  On a machine that operates in a dynamic environment... maybe the fuel DOES need to look like this to overcome obstacles at various RPMs?   I mean... REALLY think on that and not just fire something back.  The arguments are GOOD in this thread so far....  makes one THINK and not just accept whatever the 'gospel' is for the moment.  What bothers ME are those humps at 3k.  I 'might' go with the wavy, but that hump?  That cannot be right... it sits on a cell location.  (funny how you see ME argue FOR ts one minute and against TS the next?  THAT is to keep the information coming.)

I wonder of I can go find some AFR graphs from back in Z06 days....  Hmmmmm...

Jim... Your examples are WHAT is driving me..... BTW.

Mirror shakes at idle.  More weight... seems exaggerated a bit, but clears out like 1500.  Like I said, mirror mount was free, while a tank mount would cost me the price of the new door.  For v-tune, I see NO problem with the mirror thing.  On a twin scan?  We shall see.  I wonder if I can shrink enough to get the portions I WANT to see in real time up on that screen.  I surely could get AFRs, but could I get MAP AND the TACH?  Don't know yet.

I don't, as a rule, ride under 1500.  And... from my own experience with TTS, those are the cells that ALWAYS get hit first.  I bought new brake pds today.   It was EASY to hit some of the cells, since I could SEE them.  But... it would take brake taps and drags to get em green.  THAT is where the WVa Dyno is going to come into play.  Either US 250 or US 33......

Truk: Don't know if you've been following my exploits with trying to tune an oddball as Steve puts it. I can tell you it's been a education than most end users won't ever see. As for the braking and high loads, I think it bloats the ve numbers to higher than what they should be. It will be richer than needed once you drive normally in these ranges. Did it myself for no other reason to hit the higher cells, for a better reference for smoothing the map. So far what's worked best for me is drive it normally, like you would every day. Since ,with my low MAP numbers I was hard pressed to hit 60 kpa with hills and brakes. Too damn abusive and too much high speed, since it accels like an animal, even cracking it in sixth at 50 mph. I ended up doing it over and avoiding as much decel as possible, drove it normally to and above cruise rpms as well and some major passing action. I hit the cells I wanted, saved it and called it quits for vtune. Since I only had a few hits above 40 kpa smoothing was not done since there isn't enough data to do a decent smoothing job. The way I look at it is if you don't use them, it's just filler in the map. I've noticed the vtune numbers change depending on how it's driven, so tune it the way you would normally ride it and not like you are trying for low quarter mile times. Just my observations working with an oddball than won't follow the rules. Your's might, since I've taken over your bad luck from last year
Ron

[strokerjlk]

I have no problem with TTS best tuner on the market for HD at this time. but V- TUNE until it is capable of tuning the whole map, not 40 % throttle and 80 kpa max,or is able to operate on wide bands so it doesn't heat up so fast.

I have no idea what you are doing to only be able to tune to 40% tps as that makes no sense at all. Let's look at what is going on here. MAP  running from 26 - 83 and V-tune will correct it when properly operated, so what range of the tune does that area cover? At sea level max MAP is ~100 kPa and min MAP is ~30 kPa for the engine operating range. Values below 30 kPa are typically decel only. Once the Throttle is open far enough to reach 83 kPa there is only a small amount left untuned 83 to 100 kPa. If you take the corrected values from 83 kPa and extend them to the end of the RPM row your going to find that they will be with .5 AFR of desired and always slight to the rich side which is just how we want it for safety. Now as far as it getting hot that just tells me you do not have near enough cooling fans moving air across the motor. Simple fix.... go buy a better fan!

Until Dyno operators are willing to step up to REAL Wide Band Sensors or purchase a system that correctly reads the Broad Band sensors with correction for temperature and pressure your not going to get much closer than +/- .5 AFR and with some of the current aftermarket meters we've tested that is +/- 1 AFR. We are more than willing to setup a system that allows a dyno operator to tune with true Wide Band Sensors but it's going to cost in the $20,000 range and every time we have discussed this there has been no one that is willing to sign up for it.

where to start... I dont run the brake to step up through the rpms and only adjust one throttle position at a time.
I set the brake to hold specific RPM say 2250 and then go through all the throttle positions in that RPM range. no matter what gear I could only get readings to 40 % throttle or I should say get it to record data it would put the x out to the higher throttle positions but not collect data.
I did get readings up to 80 kpa. it took way longer then I thought it should to collect enough data to get a good reading.
as far a fans I have two very good fans that are enough to cool the bike whenever I tune other then v- tune. the dyno I have is the same one Doc used when he worked at Zepka H-D, same fans and so I assume they were adequate enough for him also. I have added a couple more fans that are dedicated to the exhaust also. I can assure you volume is not the problem.
with v-tune I could only work one RPM at a time and then cool. with twin scan I can work 2-3 rpm range cells before stopping to cool.just depends on what ones I work. higher rpm ranges naturally generate more heat.
I dont buy into the "cheap" wide band not being as accurate as the stock narrow band sensors theory. they have been used for years and as long as you keep the calibrated and replace them when they are weak they work fine. I am lucky enough to have access to cal gas where I work . we work in confined spaces (reactors) and have to cal our monitors every 24 hrs. so they do get calibrated .I do agree that the stock narrow band sensors are as accurate as the the "cheap" wide bands but you have to work within there range. that range just plain makes for a hot running motor. on the street it wouldn't be as big a problem. but if I add anymore fans to the dyno I am going to have to own stock in the power company.

I told you and Bob both at the v-twin Expo I would give the v- tune a honest shot because it would be great to tune the 2010 touring bikes with it on the dyno,and not have to jack with those 12 mm sensors or use a sniffer on them. but honestly I have better results with the twin scan.
my v-tuned bike the guinea pig for me, lost 10/10 and had horrible throttle response. I know some have had some luck with it but I didnt. maybe when I have some more time I will give it another shot. because it sure would be nice to use it on the 10's

[johncr]

Hope I don't get booted for bringing up another tuner, but since the thread is titled Best home made tune I think this qualifies.
What is the difference between v-tune and the SEPST (Super Tuners) Smart Tune?
Does the v-tune have more capabilities somehow?
The process sounds the same, program the ECM with a smartune enabled map. It automatically sets all the cells to 14.6. Set the VCI to record mode and go ride. Turn recording on and off with the button on the VCI. The new software/VCI firmware allows up to an hour of recording before the buffer is full.
Load the recordings into the software and the program evaluates the recordings and makes the recommendations to the VE tables.
I realize there are other items like accelerator enrichment it does not change for the recording phase, but I’m not sure if it’s necessary or not. (just learning also)
Anybody work enough with the smartune to know if it is a valuable tool or not?

[Steve Cole]

strokerjlk

Well I'm not sure what you have going on because Bob tunes with Vtune and doesn't have a heating issue, we do not here and Doc's shop isn't having issues. So something is going on at your end. Now I have the smallest cooling system of all three of us and I can run typically from idle to 3500 hitting all the cells without having to stop. Above that I can go to all cell for 2 complete RPM points at a time before cooling any. As far as 40% like I said once you reach 83 kPa your done and yes that does happen at lower RPM but typically at engine speeds above 3000 RPM your going to get to 60 - 80% tps range.

Now as far as how long it takes it's about 5 -6 seconds per data point to collect enough data for a proper correction, that's not very long in my book and I doubt that a twin scan is going much faster than that. With the dyno setup and cooling being handled that's about 20- 25 minutes for both cylinders! The hot running motor just doesn't make any sense to me either. If we tune the VE's at lets say 14.4:1 which is well within the range of the sensors then adjust the AFR after the VE's are set to 14:1 your going to see about 13.8:1 and if you want it to be richer it's no more than changing the AFR setting so you can and do get what you want.

How are you calibrating the Twin Scan when it has no provision for correcting based on temperature or pressure? The corrections can be found on the Bosch data sheet that needs to be applied for a correct reading and must be taken at the same time as the reading. While the stock sensors do not need this correction, the Broad Band sensor does. This is why the stock ones can be more accurate within there limited range.

Let me ask you a question, what do you think the VE is going to be at 2250 RPM, 40% tps and 100 kPa? What about 2250 RPM, 60% tps and 100 kPa? Again 2250 RPM, 80% tps and 100 kPa?

Everyone has there own way of doing things and how you like to do it is up to you, I just think you might be missing something and that is why your having an issue.

johncr

Hd came out with smart tune about a year after we released V-tune. While it is a start it does not have the capabilities of V-tune. Is it better than nothing, sure.

[wavlovr1]

just my 2 cents, because I am not a tuner and do not have a dyno... I have used both Twinscan with Wego and TTS. I like them both but doing test runs on the streets, I can tell you that twinscan with wego takes much more time and work to collect data than TTS. I am amazed how well the TTS works for me. I only make about 3 to 4 runs for about twenty minutes each and I get most of the usable cells filled with data. The motor doesn't overheat and it is a 2009 at 10.5:1 compression with the 255 cams.

Now I can't prove my bike is perfectly tuned, but I for one am more than happy with it. I haven't come up against a 110 that can even come close to hanging with me and it's just a 103. The bike runs cool, fast, and still gets better mpg than when stock. It is a Street Glide and will pull the front tire off the pavement in second gear, so I am reasonably sure it's tuned pretty good. I am thinking that setting the CLBs a little richer would cure the overheat problem. As far as time needed to collect data, I am just guessing but I would think the heat may be an issue.

Like I said, don't know that much about it but TTS sure works good for me.

jimbob

[Steve Cole]

The HD copy of Vtune is missing the ability to allow for changes to start with. Once you check the smart tune box it changes whatever you set on the screen to what it wants. It does not show you the changes nor does it tell you about them. Now when you go to collect data you have no idea of what is going on. Just think about Vtune with no display, no input for you to see about anything, so you have no idea of what data was collected or how much data was collected. Now once you load the data into the tuner it will show you changes but you still have no idea how they got there or if any of it is suspect data.

There is a lot more that it's not doing well under the covers so to speak but I see no reason to get into all of that now.

[wavlovr1]

Jimbob, did you run the twin scan AFTER you dialed in with TTS, and what were the results?

No, I used them on two different bikes. The twinscan and wego I got a couple of years ago to tune my 2002 Deuce. The motor is a 11:1 95 inch with all HQ parts and headwork. The 0033 cams make a ton of power from 4000-6500 where I shift. The power starts coming in about 3500. I have had the thing dyno tuned with different exhaust systems many times and WOT is really amazing. The problem always was the low end manners (2000-4000). Dyno guys could make it sing above 3500, but it was very pissy below that which is where most of the riding is done. Nobody could seem to tame the beast down low with that much cam overlap. I ran HQ's protuner for a while but ran into issues because it only took data from a rear O2 sensor to regulate and would occasionally run the front cylinder too rich.

I ran probably close to a hundred data runs over the years, looking at the data and trying different combinations of timing and AFR (excessive/compulsive?). I started to hit on a pattern of numbers that tamed the low end bad attitude. Now it idles smooth, has good smooth power from idle up, and still gets decent mpg. The weird part is that it runs extremely cool now. In heavy traffic at high outside temps, it pretty much stays cool as well. I made the changes with the old SERT using the TS/Wego data.

My 2009 Street Glide came delivered with the Stage II 103 kit (10.5:1 and 255 cams). It ran smoking hot. I got the TTS to see if I could get temps down without killing mpg. Again I did a lot of tests using different starting points. I finally ended up using Steve's Fullsac 110 dyno map as a starting point. (I got the 2" cores and TTS from Fulsac). I sort of worked backwards from that 110 map using a 103 map as a reference point. This whole process was much quicker than the TS/Wego process on the Deuce. The results were better than I had imagined. The dropoff of power at 4000 everyone talks about is almost not noticible on the 103. The drop seems very gradual to me and others who have ridden it. I usually shift between 5000-5500 when running it WOT.

Overall, I am finally pleased with the way both bikes perform. If you knew me, you would probably say that is impossible, LOL. Both TS and TTS are great tools. To me, TTS just seems like it is much easier to use. The largest investment in the TTS was reading all the instructions and trying to grasp the implications. Fortunately for me, all my questions get answered by the real tuners here online.

jimbob

[johncr]

The HD copy of Vtune is missing the ability to allow for changes to start with. Once you check the smart tune box it changes whatever you set on the screen to what it wants. It does not show you the changes nor does it tell you about them. Now when you go to collect data you have no idea of what is going on. Just think about Vtune with no display, no input for you to see about anything, so you have no idea of what data was collected or how much data was collected. Now once you load the data into the tuner it will show you changes but you still have no idea how they got there or if any of it is suspect data.

There is a lot more that it's not doing well under the covers so to speak but I see no reason to get into all of that now.

Steve,
I am not by any means challenging the fact that V-tune has more features but just want to point something out.
When you click Smart tune to flash the ECM it does make changes but the fact that you don’t know what it changed is not necessarily true. Once the flash is complete (in smart tune mode) you can retrieve that map from the ECM my loading the map from the VCI. It will show the current map (in smart tune) mode and you can see what changes it did or didn’t make to the map.
As I mentioned in the previous reply, I don’t think it changes the acceleration enrichment or CLB table, how important is it that these get set before the data collection?

[Steve Cole]

The HD copy of Vtune is missing the ability to allow for changes to start with. Once you check the smart tune box it changes whatever you set on the screen to what it wants. It does not show you the changes nor does it tell you about them. Now when you go to collect data you have no idea of what is going on. Just think about Vtune with no display, no input for you to see about anything, so you have no idea of what data was collected or how much data was collected. Now once you load the data into the tuner it will show you changes but you still have no idea how they got there or if any of it is suspect data.

There is a lot more that it's not doing well under the covers so to speak but I see no reason to get into all of that now.

Steve,
I am not by any means challenging the fact that V-tune has more features but just want to point something out.
When you click Smart tune to flash the ECM it does make changes but the fact that you don’t know what it changed is not necessarily true. Once the flash is complete (in smart tune mode) you can retrieve that map from the ECM my loading the map from the VCI. It will show the current map (in smart tune) mode and you can see what changes it did or didn’t make to the map.
As I mentioned in the previous reply, I don’t think it changes the acceleration enrichment or CLB table, how important is it that these get set before the data collection?

Unless this is something only in the latest version only, that was not true with any of the earlier versions. Since I have not checked the  latest release it could have changed. In the past there are several tables changed and since they are not event shown in the tuner how can you see them now? As for the CLB table it has always forced them to 450 in the past versions regardless of what you put in, but I will have to check the latest release to see if they changed it.

[johncr]

The HD copy of Vtune is missing the ability to allow for changes to start with. Once you check the smart tune box it changes whatever you set on the screen to what it wants. It does not show you the changes nor does it tell you about them. Now when you go to collect data you have no idea of what is going on. Just think about Vtune with no display, no input for you to see about anything, so you have no idea of what data was collected or how much data was collected. Now once you load the data into the tuner it will show you changes but you still have no idea how they got there or if any of it is suspect data.

There is a lot more that it's not doing well under the covers so to speak but I see no reason to get into all of that now.

Steve,
I am not by any means challenging the fact that V-tune has more features but just want to point something out.
When you click Smart tune to flash the ECM it does make changes but the fact that you don’t know what it changed is not necessarily true. Once the flash is complete (in smart tune mode) you can retrieve that map from the ECM my loading the map from the VCI. It will show the current map (in smart tune) mode and you can see what changes it did or didn’t make to the map.
As I mentioned in the previous reply, I don’t think it changes the acceleration enrichment or CLB table, how important is it that these get set before the data collection?

Unless this is something only in the latest version only, that was not true with any of the earlier versions. Since I have not checked the  latest release it could have changed. In the past there are several tables changed and since they are not event shown in the tuner how can you see them now? As for the CLB table it has always forced them to 450 in the past versions regardless of what you put in, but I will have to check the latest release to see if they changed it.

Steve,
You are correct, if there are tables that do not show in the actual tuning software you would not be able to see them by pulling the smart tune map from the VCI. I’m guessing that is one of the areas the SEPST falls short of the V-tune, having limited control over all the options.
Since that is what I have at this point, do you recommend CLB at 450 and Acceleration Enrichment set to Zero for collecting data?

Thanks for your help.

[strokerjlk]

strokerjlk

Well I'm not sure what you have going on because Bob tunes with Vtune and doesn't have a heating issue, we do not here and Doc's shop isn't having issues. So something is going on at your end. Now I have the smallest cooling system of all three of us and I can run typically from idle to 3500 hitting all the cells without having to stop. Above that I can go to all cell for 2 complete RPM points at a time before cooling any. As far as 40% like I said once you reach 83 kPa your done and yes that does happen at lower RPM but typically at engine speeds above 3000 RPM your going to get to 60 - 80% tps range.

Now as far as how long it takes it's about 5 -6 seconds per data point to collect enough data for a proper correction, that's not very long in my book and I doubt that a twin scan is going much faster than that. With the dyno setup and cooling being handled that's about 20- 25 minutes for both cylinders! The hot running motor just doesn't make any sense to me either. If we tune the VE's at lets say 14.4:1 which is well within the range of the sensors then adjust the AFR after the VE's are set to 14:1 your going to see about 13.8:1 and if you want it to be richer it's no more than changing the AFR setting so you can and do get what you want.

How are you calibrating the Twin Scan when it has no provision for correcting based on temperature or pressure? The corrections can be found on the Bosch data sheet that needs to be applied for a correct reading and must be taken at the same time as the reading. While the stock sensors do not need this correction, the Broad Band sensor does. This is why the stock ones can be more accurate within there limited range.

Let me ask you a question, what do you think the VE is going to be at 2250 RPM, 40% tps and 100 kPa? What about 2250 RPM, 60% tps and 100 kPa? Again 2250 RPM, 80% tps and 100 kPa?

Everyone has there own way of doing things and how you like to do it is up to you, I just think you might be missing something and that is why your having an issue.

johncr

Hd came out with smart tune about a year after we released V-tune. While it is a start it does not have the capabilities of V-tune. Is it better than nothing, sure.

this is the gas we use. as far as the set up to calibrate sensors we have one of the most sophisticated labs in the country. sorry no pics of that .I want to keep my job. you understand  proprietary I am sure. we test many types of sensors for various gases chemicals etc. this lab is set up with  mass spectrometry so it isn't just the run of mill. the engineer that is charge of the lab calibrates them for me although I know the procedure and the equipment he uses. I can say that they are under a 1 Torr (1000 micron) vacuum so it is not a free air calibration. this lab is his baby! so no messing around with his equipment I have my baby on the other end of the plant and he doesn't mess with my stuff either.
one thing I can tell you is the free air cal of the twin scan is pretty good until they are degraded to the point that they cant be calibrated with it.
you are correct the twin scan takes 5 sec to record a cell. I know the V-tune is supposed to take the same time 5-6 sec but it doesn't for me so yes I could be doing something wrong. I am not perfect or the smartest man alive. I do have a elec /mech Eng degree so I like to think I am not a complete idiot. (depends on who you ask).LOL
your question ....I realize 100kpa at 2250 is 100 kpa.no mater the throttle position

[Steve Cole]

The calibration gas is all well and good but the issue is from the temperature and pressure corrections that are not being used in the unit! I would assume your only running the calibration test at room temperature and pressure. It is required according to the manufacture of the sensor (Bosch). Last time I looked the exhaust is anything but room temperature and pressure and both the temperature and pressure change with engine speed and RPM. There are some equipment manufactures that do make the test equipment with them used correctly but last I looked they wanted $3000 for it. At that kind of cost you might as well go get the real deal and use real Wide Band sensors. This way you have no need to mount the extra probes in the exhaust of each bike you want to test.

Since you understand that 100 kPa is the same thing regardless of throttle position then you should also understand the VE will not change in those conditions. So if you have 100 Kpa at 15% tps all the cells above 15 % tps at a fixed RPM will get the same values. Since we can get up to 83 kPa if you use the corrected value from that cell and extend it to the end of the RPM row you have now filled in all the points for that RPM. The final result has always been the same and that is you will find that you are about .5 AFR richer than what you have set at 100 kPa.

If you would like to run a test I think you will find that you can move the AFR +/- .5 AFR and see little to No change in power output. So by erroring to the rich side we keep the bike cooler for those who do not have a dyno. Those with a dyno and proper measuring equipment can make those final adjustments to get the last little bit out of the motor.

[strokerjlk]

 

The calibration gas is all well and good but the issue is from the temperature and pressure corrections that are not being used in the unit! I would assume your only running the calibration test at room temperature and pressure. It is required according to the manufacture of the sensor (Bosch).

they are calibrated at what ever temp Bosch recommends or what we have found to work. we test sensors not only from Bosch but most every other manufacturer.
and they are under vacuum 1 TORR 1000 microns not free air. although we use some other methods besides what the manufacture recommends on other sensors. I don't believe Bosch is one of them.  you see we designed and wrote the  recommendations for testing many of these sensors on the market.
we have proprietary testing methods that only we use. rest assured they are calibrated.and the equipment was a lot more then 3000.00. we use sensors that cost more then that.

[Steve Cole]

I understand only too well what good equipment cost, we've got plenty of it here. My point is that Bosch (the maker of the sensor) says you must read the sensor, the temperature and the pressure all at the same time to arrive at an accurate output reading. That means that you must be able to read the temperature and pressure from within the exhaust system as the sensor is read. Leaving out any part of that gives you an inaccurate reading and too the best of my knowledge the twin scan nor any of the other aftermarket units currently do that, please correct me if I am wrong!

So the sensor can be calibrated as much as you want in lab conditions but if you do not use it as the manufacture defines it to be used your not going to get the results listed in there specification sheet. If you do not use the corrections for temperature and pressure the reading can be off +/- 1.0 AFR! So you tell me does it matter if your off by +/- 1.0 AFR?

In our testing +/- .5 AFR showed little change provided you were in the range of 13.8 - 12.8 AFR but +/-1.0 AFR is going to be a problem. Were we really get scared is if the sensor happens to be off in the  14.6 - 14.2 area as that can really cause issues when your trying to lean the motor down for cruise range mileage. Now go back to the stock switching sensor and it's dead bang on in the 14.6 - 14.2 range which is where we use it to tune with. I know we cannot accurately read outside that range but I also know that the math in the ECM works very well once calibrated. So by setting it up where the stock sensor is good, then allowing the ECM to handle the richer areas, it works very nicely for us.