New exhaust pipe issues!

[yositime]

and I will just go on making these bikes run correctly my way.
You have a great product in Mastertune, V-tune not so much.

Do you just tune for power, i mean what kind of mileage can you push your closed loop tune to safely?  I want to get 50 more miles from a tank for my convenience...  so I really don't want to waste fuel throwing it at the bike just to make sure it runs safe from one tank to another.

on another topic...   err..  perhaps the topic this thread started with...    are there certain quality aftermarket exhaust makers that take care in O2 placement, V&H, LR perhaps...  or is it just a crap shoot regardless.

[rbabos]

FWIW,
I have used the v-tune for all kinds of builds and exhausts for over a year now. There have been times where I have needed to learn what is "actually" happening rather than what I assumed was happening, in order to get the system to successfully v-tune and where the system cannot be used for tuning in closed loop due to problems and issues with the exhaust....not the v-tune software.

If the exhaust system is poorly designed (promotes reversion) the O2 sensor sees air mixed in with exhaust (reversion) and cannot be relied upon for manual, auto, or v-tuning.

Now add the fact that several exhaust mfgs have purposely? kept the O2 tip out of the exhaust stream....possibly because they feel it is more important to have no intrusion for flow rather than EFI closed loop functionality.

Experienced tuners know about reversion and the more experience the better they are able to deal (tune) with and around it.

If a tuner were to merely replace the OEM sensors with broadband sensors and then relied on the readings during reversion, it would indicate lean....just like the OEM sensors. So it makes virtually no difference if the sensor is wide, broad, or narrow band....garbage in garbage out. Sound familiar?

The tuner needs to be capable of identifying tuning anomalies and work with the bike's running quality as equipped.

The above is why tuners have secure professions and should not buck new technology (to them) but learn and maximize their tuning results using technology rather than simply bad mouthing their results from lack of experience and knowledge.

As always, JMHO,
Bob

Bob: You made a statement about how experienced tuners tune around reversion. I've sorta done that, but if I go closed loop again most likely the tune will go for a chit again. How do you stop the bad exhaust, O2 readings conflicting with the ve manipulations with reversion present?
Ron

[Steve Cole]

Steve, have you considered the real reason for the problems with the sensor placement, open pipes without cats and resulting reversion, what do you suppose that reversion at closed loop areas is going to do once an adaptive fuel correction is made?

The first thing we need to understand is the exhaust, if it's made improperly then we can stop right there, no need to go further. This is what this post was started for, to address that issue nothing more nothing less but some have tried to take it to something else! The exhaust needs to have the sensor so that it's in the exhaust stream so it can measure properly, I do not care what type sensor is being used!


While tuning (with another broken down old dyno) I can view things real time see when the sensors (Wide but not really wideband)bounce around from reversion and ignore that data. Your system takes that data (with some filtering I suspect)and applies it blindly via V-tune.

Not event close to how Vtune works but that's OK. Since some do not understand it and have no idea how it works its just easier to blame it than learn what going on. What you can see is something is moving but you have no idea as to why, could be reversion, could be poor sensor placement or it could be an out of specification Broad Band or a bad Switching sensor. That issue is what needs to be found and corrected. Just turning off the closed loop does none of the above.
Please explain to me how a bike that's been tuned with say a Broad Band or Vtuned and it's running great in Closed loop. Then you ship it down the road and as time goes on it turn to pure $hit. How is that a Vtune or Broad Band issue?

Sure the VE tables can be viewed after but the average user will not know if the numbers look out of place anyway. You are the the ONLY person in the tuning industry that consistently tries to discredit the info a wide band (OK, not really a wideband) sensor provides and touts the merits of the narrow$. The reason $hould be obvious.

I have been the only one I guess smart enough to get the documents and look at the specifications for the sensors, and if you believe that I've got some beach front property in the CA desert for you too.

If you guys bothered to read the documents you would have found that both sensors are built from the same basic design, one with a few things added to extend the range. Please explain to me why ABSOLUTELY not one OEM uses Broad Bands for fuel control. Since both the Switching Sensor and Broad Band are built from the same technology they have some things that are in common and some that are different. While keeping the switching sensor in its narrow range the issue of heat and pressure are very little to none when it comes to corrections, the same cannot be said for Broad Bands and this is why they are not used for fuel control by any OEM manufacture! To use them one needs to add a temperature and pressure probes. These are facts that are right in the documentation from the manufacture. I wish I had know this about 10 years ago when we all bought them, as REAL Wide Bands were/are very expensive. Well as time went on and more and more problems kept coming back up with them I did the digging to find out about them. If you really cared you would step up and buy a real Wide Band system but as you say it's all about the $$$$$$ that you guys are unwilling or unable to spend.


The improper placement of these sensors and the degradation of the tune from the placement can easily be remedied by not incorporating them in the tune, period.

Yes it can and you have fixed NOTHING. Instead of fixing it you avoided the problem instead of correcting it and degraded the systems ability along the way.

The data sheet on these new smaller sensors used in the 2010 Touring models shows an operating range of up to 600C with 800C as max, seems it would be no problem to move them upstream a bit to avoid some of the reversion problems associated with these crappy pipes. As for the placement, nothing new there either, they are simply to be installed as any 02  as to avoid contamination from condensation and excessive heat and be far enough into the pipe for an accurate sample. Lots of 07 up aftermarket pipes aren't even close to specs, not just the new bikes.
As for the open loop closed loop debate, I know the answer to that and since you make your living off of a system that only partially tunes a motorcycle using the narrow bands and I don't expect you to have an open mind concerning this.
And since when does a speed density system not adapt to altitude changes?
So go ahead now and tell me I don't know anything about tuning if that's what you feel the need to do and I will just go on making these bikes run correctly my way.
You have a great product in Mastertune, V-tune not so much.

If you truely cared about your customers you would correct problems not just avoid them and degrade the systems ability. When you find a broken part do you glue it together just to get the customer down the road or replace the part with a properly working part? We all know you only do it for the $$$$

This whole thread was started to make customers aware of a real problem that we are seeing more and more with exhaust pipes. So instead of viewing it as that, a few of you have tried your best to take it off track and make it about Vtune. If you tried to understand what was going on and how it all works you might just learn something but somehow I do not see that ever happening as long as you keep your head buried in the sand. If everyone kept doing what a few of you are doing now we would still have 35 Hp HD motors that only got 28 mpg!

You all now have the specifications of how it should be done. Go look at what your going to get prior to buying it and make an informed decision.

[BVHOG]

Please explain to me how a bike that's been tuned with say a Broad Band or Vtuned and it's running great in Closed loop. Then you ship it down the road and as time goes on it turn to pure $hit. How is that a Vtune or Broad Band issue?

It's not an issue of either the Broad Band or the V-tune, it's an issue with the function of the ECM getting eroneous readings from the narrow bands, how would you remedy that? Maybe take a pipe or mufflers off a bike that make great power and replace them with a stock headpipe or some other POS that works with the narrow bands but will make no where near the same power because of lack of flow or bad flow characteristics? That would not be solving the problem either would it?  The sensors work great in the stock application because of cam characteristics (no overlap) and a quiet, high backpressure muffler.   And Steve, please man, my grammer sucks at times but the word is EVEN, no T at the end.

Yosemite: We all tune for power,(along with that comes efficiency) but I tune with an emphasis on part throttle driveability, not just throwing fuel at it, I have never had a complaint about mileage.

The above is why tuners have secure professions and should not buck new technology (to them) but learn and maximize their tuning results using technology rather than simply bad mouthing their results from lack of experience and knowledge.
Bob, if that's some kind of rip on us guys that do this as a sideline just come out and say it, I own my own equipment free and clear, financed by my real job and I produce a great tune for very few $, I certainly don't do it for the money, can you say that?
I have a hard time refering to a sytem that does 80% of the total work involved as "technology"  What did you do before the narrow band system? did all these bikes run like crap, I highly doubt it.  Also, have you considered the degredation of these narrow band sensors over time?  You are putting a bike in a controled environment on the dyno, making the proper adjustment and then turning it out the door with a set of sensors that may or may not  be getting the proper reading fromt the exhaust. You want technology? set up a real system with 4 gas analysis, now thats technology.

[wurk_truk]

I'm going to keep MY yap shut.  But..........................

Anyways

But... Why won't ANYBODY name some names on theses pipes and pipe manufacturers?   This site is all bout spreading info to the members.  Wouldn't some 'heads ups' be beneficial to us?  If we had a CLUE on what pipes, then MAYBE we, the uninformed backyard types, could keep things in mind when we attempt to tune ourselves with Wide  (not really wide) OR Narrow bands.

Look at all the crap Ron has went thru....  a heads up could have helped a LOT.  We LIKE power.  We like pipes that MAKE power.  If we knew, we could adapt to the situation better.

Dammit!!!!!!!

[strokerjlk]

The above is why tuners have secure professions and should not buck new technology (to them) but learn and maximize their tuning results using technology rather than simply bad mouthing their results from lack of experience and knowledge.

seems that was directed at me or at least someone like me that uses wide bands to tune.
so since you are pointing fingers or claiming that we need to get on board with so called technology.
lets talk about a customer I sent you. this guy was willing to send me his bike (2000 miles) to tune.
I talked him into riding down to you and having his bike tuned (500 miles). I trusted you based on your reputation. even pmed you and asked you to take care of him as a favor to me.
so now he brings the bike down. and maybe it wasn't you who tuned it  but the end result was a v- tuned bike that ...by the time he got home ran like crap. he contacts me and asks whats up? I advised him to get the map from you (or you guys). he was sent a map for a Andrews 26 build when in fact he had SE 259 cams. so I told him to be firm and get his map. so in the end he gets his map. the 2010 103 SE 259 cams FC  103 + heads. now I get a copy of it to find out it is a v-tuned map no timing adjustment at all ...just a v-tuned map, that has to be rev-ed to 3000 rpm's to get it rolling and has a dead spot in it at 2500-2750. and you want me to get on board with this technology.
I fixed his map and all is well. I would have never brought this up, but since you are pointing fingers ...I point back!
gotta agree with BVBOB here.
seems I have said the same thing maybe not as eloquent
but the same goes for me I don't do this for a living I do it because of all the SO CALLED TUNERS, that wham bam thank you Sam.
I dont have to turn out so many tunes a day,week, month, year to meet overhead. my stuff is bought and paid for.
I only have satisfied customers ...no matter how long a tune takes!

Bob, if that's some kind of rip on us guys that do this as a sideline just come out and say it, I own my own equipment free and clear, financed by my real job and I produce a great tune for very few $, I certainly don't do it for the money, can you say that?
I have a hard time refering to a sytem that does 80% of the total work involved as "technology"  What did you do before the narrow band system? did all these bikes run like crap, I highly doubt it.  Also, have you considered the degredation of these narrow band sensors over time?  You are putting a bike in a controled environment on the dyno, making the proper adjustment and then turning it out the door with a set of sensors that may or may not  be getting the proper reading fromt the exhaust. You want technology? set up a real system with 4 gas analysis, now thats technology

[Dennis The Menace]

Here is an example:  Bub 7 with crossover.  You may not be able to tell clearly, but the tip of the sensor is less than half way into the pipe--sub optimal.



[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[wurk_truk]

Good pic Dennis.  OK............ to ALL the Gurus, is Dennis' O2 into the exhaust stream far enough?  Or does it really need to be in there farther?  On MY Bosscat, I notice there is a soot ring at the base of the O2 sensor, like it only sits partially into the exhaust stream.    What do we need to be looking for here?

[FLTRI]

Bob, if that's some kind of rip on us guys that do this as a sideline just come out and say it, I own my own equipment free and clear, financed by my real job and I produce a great tune for very few $, I certainly don't do it for the money, can you say that?
I have a hard time refering to a sytem that does 80% of the total work involved as "technology"  What did you do before the narrow band system? did all these bikes run like crap, I highly doubt it.  Also, have you considered the degredation of these narrow band sensors over time?  You are putting a bike in a controled environment on the dyno, making the proper adjustment and then turning it out the door with a set of sensors that may or may not  be getting the proper reading fromt the exhaust. You want technology? set up a real system with 4 gas analysis, now thats technology

Geez,
You win.  You obviously know more about all this stuff than I do. Sorry if you and/or anyone else took anything I said personally as I was reacting to what I was reading not who was saying it.

I just can't imagine how v-tune, which simply creates a new map/calibration file just like you would if you tuned it, could cause something to change at a later date. I mean v-tune cannot have any input to the ECM because it is only used with DataMaster, not MasterTune software and then creates a new map/calibration file based on the data gathered during v-tune.

Again sorry if I offended anyone,
Bob
PS - Thanks for straightening out that tune. I'd do the same for you.

[BVHOG]

Here is an example:  Bub 7 with crossover.  You may not be able to tell clearly, but the tip of the sensor is less than half way into the pipe--sub optimal.

That's a great pic! I can't understand why they protrude the bung itself into the pipe, no way is that good under any circumstances.

[strokerjlk]

Bob, if that's some kind of rip on us guys that do this as a sideline just come out and say it, I own my own equipment free and clear, financed by my real job and I produce a great tune for very few $, I certainly don't do it for the money, can you say that?
I have a hard time refering to a sytem that does 80% of the total work involved as "technology"  What did you do before the narrow band system? did all these bikes run like crap, I highly doubt it.  Also, have you considered the degredation of these narrow band sensors over time?  You are putting a bike in a controled environment on the dyno, making the proper adjustment and then turning it out the door with a set of sensors that may or may not  be getting the proper reading fromt the exhaust. You want technology? set up a real system with 4 gas analysis, now thats technology

Geez,
You win.  You obviously know more about all this stuff than I do. Sorry if you and/or anyone else took anything I said personally as I was reacting to what I was reading not who was saying it.

in your previous posts, you join in as if somehow your experience is superior and you have the answer to how to make a v-tune work flawless.
that's hard to sit here and take when I have seen the opposite. my response was not about who knows more. it was about....not all your v-tunes have been successful.

I just can't imagine how v-tune, which simply creates a new map/calibration file just like you would if you tuned it, could cause something to change at a later date. I mean v-tune cannot have any input to the ECM because it is only used with DataMaster, not MasterTune software and then creates a new map/calibration file based on the data gathered during v-tune.
why is it so hard to imagine? your garbage in garbage out analogy fits pretty good here. your using a program that makes ve adjustments for you.
unless your watching the actual AFR at the same time, and using your experance (knowledge) to determine that the data collected is good,then your just looking at ve trends to determine that the data was good. you could follow up with wide bands and sniff or instal in the head pipes and watch the actuall AFR and compare. but then your into twice the time to tune. seems most use v-tune to save time. so the chances of following  up every tune is slim.
so if you collect garbage data ( V-tune,data master) then input that to the ECM, now you have AFV making changes to a "unhappy" ECM.
Again sorry if I offended anyone,
Bob
PS - Thanks for straightening out that tune. I'd do the same for you.

Thanks I hope it never comes to that 

[lonewolf]

See there you go trying to call yourself a tuner again. Just because you bought an old broken down dyno from Zepka HD when they junked it and put it in your home garage doesn't make you a tuner.

Have to agree with John, cheap shot and out of bounds. I know Jim is one guy I would let tune my bike. I also have seen anomalies that show that vtune is not perfect.

I just can't imagine how v-tune, which simply creates a new map/calibration file just like you would if you tuned it, could cause something to change at a later date. I mean v-tune cannot have any input to the ECM because it is only used with DataMaster, not MasterTune software and then creates a new map/calibration file based on the data gathered during v-tune.

But if the o2 sensors were in the wrong place as Steve mentioned, would that not mess with the closed loop area after the tune was done?

I think the whole point of this thread is to be aware of how the bungs are placed in the pipe. So what do you do in this situation? I would just bypass using the narrow or broadbands in the bungs and use the sniffer up the pipe and leave the bike in open loop, unless this is for the new lambda based bikes.

[HogMike]

Here is an example:  Bub 7 with crossover.  You may not be able to tell clearly, but the tip of the sensor is less than half way into the pipe--sub optimal.

That's a great pic! I can't understand why they protrude the bung itself into the pipe, no way is that good under any circumstances.

It's all about the $$$$.
Compare that pic with the stock Harley cast piece that holds the sensors.
Very contoured and nothing protruding into the pipes except the sensor tips. I think Harley did a good job designing this area.

Now, lets discuss my "tune" on my new bike.
We had it on a dyno at a well respected technician out this way. about 8 hours were spent on the table, not all about the tuning, some was changing pipes, a/c etc. He took the time to verify that every last area of the operating range of my engine was at 100%.
Now, I go riding. I was pretty sure the bike was running at 100%, but, there are a few things that I like in my "drive-ability" that someone else cannot do for me. Think of adjusting the handle bars optimally, and then turn the bike over to the customer. He may not like it where it's "supposed" to be!
On this new bike of mine, I DID commit a mortal sin and adjusted some tables to suit MY riding style, and could not be happier. I also am in touch with the guy who did my initial tune and we talk about changing some things to suit me. No harm, no foul. My basic tune started out at 100%, now, I'm probably at "whatever" %, but, happy!
One of my other bikes has an S&S......runs just as sweet as the new one, been on a "test" dyno once, don't even CARE what my AFR is. Gets good gas mileage and runs strong and even.
Sorry if I offended anyone, not my intent. Just sharing some of my experience as a "biker" going back years.

[glens]

C'mon guys!  "Can't we all just get along?"

Steve's right about this even(t) [yes, I've noticed that too, and also find it puzzling] if some folks here think he's just trying to badmouth "not our" products.

If you want to use closed-loop operation, be it with the stock ECM and its "narrow-band" sensors or with an aftermarket "auto-tuning" system with its "broad-band" sensors, you must ensure the sensors are located/used properly or it'll degrade itself over time.  This is nothing more than science/physics at work.  It's not about which product is better.

Dennis, as I recall, that rear sensor was downstream of the "crossover".  Even if it's not optimally positioned in every other way it's not going to be reliable for reading just the rear cylinder.  But look at your picture.  Look at the layer of deposits on the inside of the bend.  The bulk of the flow is around the outside of the curve and there are eddies on the inside.  The outside is scrubbed clean.  Is the sensor shroud relatively clean because it's been scrubbed that way by the gas stream or is it because it's internally heated and cooked clean?

As for me, I see the value in v-tune, even(t) though this thread is not about that at all!  If you can't get v-tune to work with your setup, you're not going to be able to run closed-loop.  It's as simple as that.  My money goes toward things that enable the closed-loop feedback to work properly.  I like closed-loop.  If I'd thrown some parts together and it didn't work in closed-loop, I'd replace whatever parts are necessary with ones which will allow it.

[rbabos]

See there you go trying to call yourself a tuner again. Just because you bought an old broken down dyno from Zepka HD when they junked it and put it in your home garage doesn't make you a tuner.

Have to agree with John, cheap shot and out of bounds. I know Jim is one guy I would let tune my bike. I also have seen anomalies that show that vtune is not perfect.

I just can't imagine how v-tune, which simply creates a new map/calibration file just like you would if you tuned it, could cause something to change at a later date. I mean v-tune cannot have any input to the ECM because it is only used with DataMaster, not MasterTune software and then creates a new map/calibration file based on the data gathered during v-tune.

But if the o2 sensors were in the wrong place as Steve mentioned, would that not mess with the closed loop area after the tune was done?

I think the whole point of this thread is to be aware of how the bungs are placed in the pipe. So what do you do in this situation? I would just bypass using the narrow or broadbands in the bungs and use the sniffer up the pipe and leave the bike in open loop.

Russel: For me, it was the most logical solution (open loop). Still running good, by the way.  Not like I'm throwing another log on the fire or anything.
Ron

[rbabos]

C'mon guys!  "Can't we all just get along?"

Steve's right about this even(t) [yes, I've noticed that too, and also find it puzzling] if some folks here think he's just trying to badmouth "not our" products.

If you want to use closed-loop operation, be it with the stock ECM and its "narrow-band" sensors or with an aftermarket "auto-tuning" system with its "broad-band" sensors, you must ensure the sensors are located/used properly or it'll degrade itself over time.  This is nothing more than science/physics at work.  It's not about which product is better.

Dennis, as I recall, that rear sensor was downstream of the "crossover".  Even if it's not optimally positioned in every other way it's not going to be reliable for reading just the rear cylinder.  But look at your picture.  Look at the layer of deposits on the inside of the bend.  The bulk of the flow is around the outside of the curve and there are eddies on the inside.  The outside is scrubbed clean.  Is the sensor shroud relatively clean because it's been scrubbed that way by the gas stream or is it because it's internally heated and cooked clean?

As for me, I see the value in v-tune, even(t) though this thread is not about that at all!  If you can't get v-tune to work with your setup, you're not going to be able to run closed-loop.  It's as simple as that.  My money goes toward things that enable the closed-loop feedback to work properly.  I like closed-loop.  If I'd thrown some parts together and it didn't work in closed-loop, I'd replace whatever parts are necessary with ones which will allow it.

Some of us are not filthy rich to needlessly replace an otherwise good product, just to satisfy vtune.
Ron

[Paniolo]

What is the best approach then?

Obviously my '01 Ultra didn't come with bungs in the head pipes. So when I went Thunder-Max with auto-tune, I opted to use head pipes off a late model bike with factory bungs already in the pipes rather than weld some in mine. I liked that the factory ones were at an angle which made installation and change out easier as opposed to a flatter application which when the pipes are installed on the bike made it a bit more difficult to get to.

Was it a bad idea to go with the factory head pipes with bungs built in?
Should I have had bungs cut and welded into the pipes?

I'm not out to make GOBS of horsepower and be dyno queen. I just want my bike to run nicely (which it does thanks to all the T-Max gurus here who helped me). Is there really THAT much of a difference for a guy like me?

Thanks

[FLTRI]

Guess you have to be careful what ya say in this discussion....kinda like the auto-tune threads.

First, the MOCO went to great extents to mount bungs in a way that is not "ugly" (thanks Willy?), but still gets good signal....when applied to similar exhaust system components it was developed for.

Second, there was a rush to market for O2 bunged aftermarket exhausts. They most likely want to keep the sensors out of the exhaust stream for free flow, rather than proper O2 closed loop operation. Big mistake IMO, and have identified 3 mfgs to date that have basically engineered proper closed loop operation out of their exhaust system.

Third, The more experience a tuner has dealing with reversion issues, the more equipped he is in tuning those problem areas.....in open loop. Problem areas are tuned in open loop and the rest is left in closed loop.

And lastly, sorry there are "private" tuners who feel personally attacked when advice is given and statements are made by those who have experienced, diagnosed, and resolved the issues.

We are only TRYING to help folks with open minds, understand when/why v-tuning doesn't work as expected/assumed due to poor O2 readings. Also applies to any O2 application, wide band, broadband, or narrow band....bad readings due to reversion.

Again, sorry if anyone feels personally threatened from my attempt to help understand the issues founds with closed loop operation due to poorly designed O2 bung design and mounting as applied to aftermarket exhaust systems.

If you want the best chance for closed loop success:
1) Use OEM headpipes. They have done the research to be sure the sensors have the best chance for proper readings.
2) Mount O2 sensors in pipes according to the Bosch info.
3) Understand where the exhaust is promoting reversion and manually tune those areas.

12 years and 5000 tunes and ya learn a lot. Just saying,
Bob
PS - Again, v-tune makes no changes to the calibration once it is loaded into the ECM, so to indicate the tune learned/changed based on v-tune input to the ECM is....well just ignorance. Just because someone repeats the same misinformation over and over does not put credibility to that person or the misinformation.

[7hogs]

Steve,

Is there a list of manufactures that you know that have correctly install the bungs?

With a list of correct manufactures started the list could get longer.

[Steve Cole]

This thread was started for one reason only and that was to inform people of the issue. Well if you've spent the time to read it you now know where it's gone. A few people who have nothing better to do want to change this into a discussion about how Vtune didn't work and how Vtune changed the tune after the fact. It just goes to show how ignorant they are. Had they bothered to use the product they would have known it does nothing to the program after it is installed but instead of really using the product they have set out to bad mouth it at all cost. Yes, they claim to have used it but, if they cannot understand the basic things about it, they never used it or did not bother to learn how to use it.

They refuse to step up and solve the underlying problem or event admit that it has nothing to do with Vtune, Switching sensors, Broad Band sensors or any other tuning product of any kind. HD made an exhaust system that works with an ECM that works with it. Now you add in mismade exhaust system and it easier to blame the ECM, Vtune, Broad Band, ect. due to the short coming of the added exhaust. They have gone out and bought old equipment that was being junked out by other shops and want to tell everyone how well they know it all and everyone else is full of it. These people will come and go as they will not sit down to really learn anything, so why argue any further with them. If you want to go back and never learn anything new and convert your new technology bike back to old technology so be it, but do not blame the tools for doing it wrong when the operator of the tools is to blame.

They have readily admitted they have no idea as to how to fix the real problem and it not needed anyways in there eyes so they will not learn and understand. They want to say everything was OK the way it was so let's go backward.

And, I have some thoughts on v-tuning, too.

I really like MAstertune.  So.....  I would guess I am in the 'crowd' that holds Power Commander in distain!  Those PC5 guys are just being fooled and the PC5 just 'layers' info, etc.  A 'real' tune cannot be had with PC5.

But... we hold ourselves with the thought that v-tuning is the end all to be all.... when in fact it is NOT.  I commend Steve for bringing the exhaust issue to the forefront, but it NEEDS to be said... V-tuning is NOT perfect, but it is marketed that way.  Just like PC5 is.

I would imagine that MOST TTS customers do NOT read HTT like we do.  WE get specialized treatment from Steve and it REALLY helps.   Problems arise when one THINKS the v-tune KNOWS what it is doing (vis-a-vis pipes) when it does NOT.

As both Bob AND Stroker Broker Backyard man state.... it takes EXPERIENCE to tune a Harley and NO automated process is going to hit home runs every time out.  I dont have the experience.  Ron doesn't.  A LOT of us do not.... so what to do?

Help US (consumers) out on this pipe thing is what YOU gurus need to do.

Truk

Vtune has never been nor will  it ever be marketed as perfect. If you go back and read old threads I've said it many times. Vtune will get you about 85% of what a dyno tune will get you. What you have said is just what the certain people want you to say I've said but, a simple search on this very forum will teach you different. What I have said over and over again is Broad Band sensors without the supporting equipment will not get you a perfect tune. These same people are offended that I say that so I have backed it up with the facts from the manufacture and they are offended at that too! 

Now you have used Vtune yourself, did it not help you at all? Did it make it better than it was? Would you be willing to say it got 85% of the tune done for you? If it did then it has done just what we said it would at no additional cost to you.

Now you also went out and bought the TS as these same people told you it would solve the problem and by your own post right here in this thread it did not! So now you've wasted another $400! Would it not be safe to assume there is another underlying issue causing the problem then?

The underlying problem is why I started this thread!

[Blackcherry Low]

We are only TRYING to help folks with open minds, understand when/why v-tuning doesn't work as expected/assumed due to poor O2 readings. Also applies to any O2 application, wide band, broadband, or narrow band....bad readings due to reversion.

If you want the best chance for closed loop success:
1) Use OEM headpipes. They have done the research to be sure the sensors have the best chance for proper readings.
2) Mount O2 sensors in pipes according to the Bosch info.
3) Understand where the exhaust is promoting reversion and manually tune those areas.

12 years and 5000 tunes and ya learn a lot. Just saying,
Bob
PS - Again, v-tune makes no changes to the calibration once it is loaded into the ECM, so to indicate the tune learned/changed based on v-tune input to the ECM is....well just ignorance. Just because someone repeats the same misinformation over and over does not put credibility to that person or the misinformation.

Is there something that makes reversion identifiable when looking at a DataMaster recording?

[Steve Cole]

This has nothing to do with this thread but here's your answer!

If you want an open loop tune that's easy! Let's look at this by backing up some. You Vtune the bike and it runs good. Each and every time you run the engine Vtune is no where near your ECM, it's NOT DOING ANYTHING while the motor is running. So now what?

You say OK it runs good with the tune as I now have it. Open Mastertune and go to the AFR table and change each cell that has a 14.6 in it to 14.5.................. you now have the same tune as you have running in the bike but open loop. The AFV's will no longer work and make any adjustments! This has NOTHING to do with Vtune!

This is about learning to tune but has nothing at all to do with what is causing the problem nor finding that issue and solving it.

[Paniolo]

What is the best approach then?

Obviously my '01 Ultra didn't come with bungs in the head pipes. So when I went Thunder-Max with auto-tune, I opted to use head pipes off a late model bike with factory bungs already in the pipes rather than weld some in mine. I liked that the factory ones were at an angle which made installation and change out easier as opposed to a flatter application which when the pipes are installed on the bike made it a bit more difficult to get to.

Was it a bad idea to go with the factory head pipes with bungs built in?
Should I have had bungs cut and welded into the pipes?

I'm not out to make GOBS of horsepower and be dyno queen. I just want my bike to run nicely (which it does thanks to all the T-Max gurus here who helped me). Is there really THAT much of a difference for a guy like me?

Thanks

I think you took the correct approach with the late model pipes.  I wouldn't worry about it anymore.

As has been reported... factory pipes are very well engineered for this O2 placement thing.

It the folks that have a LARGER need for power and who has turned to the after market that needs to possibly be concerned.

Thanks!

That's the SECOND bit of good news for me today.

Ride Safe.

Mark

[Dennis The Menace]

I would caution posting up pipe makers with products that have O2 issues.  Nothing to keep them from coming here and suing us for slander or some such crap.  I dont trust lawyers, ya see.

A better approach would be for the folks who know to post what pipes DO a good job of correct placement of the O2 in the pipe and flow.

As you saw with my Bub 7 with crossover, it wasnt even half way int the flow.  I "presume" that its not reading the flow accurately.  BUT, maybe Bub was able to look at the flow on a simulation and see exactly where to put the bung and how far into the pipe to extend the O2.  Hell, I dont know what level of engineering went into them.  (their material construction and welding is another story).

Anyway, Steve, Bob and others, feel free to post pipe makers and models you feel do a good job of placement, based on the Bosch specs.  I would rather know what is good, than what is bad.  Kind of like half-full, half-empty.  I want what works, so half-full for me.

My next bike I am not going to remove the pipes.  I will add a SE muffler and call it good.  After all these years, I am tired of trying all the different stuff out there.  I just want what works and to go ride the snot out of it!

menace

[Blackcherry Low]

This has nothing to do with this thread but here's your answer!

If you want an open loop tune that's easy! Let's look at this by backing up some. You Vtune the bike and it runs good. Each and every time you run the engine Vtune is no where near your ECM, it's NOT DOING ANYTHING while the motor is running. So now what?

You say OK it runs good with the tune as I now have it. Open Mastertune and go to the AFR table and change each cell that has a 14.6 in it to 14.5.................. you now have the same tune as you have running in the bike but open loop. The AFV's will no longer work and make any adjustments! This has NOTHING to do with Vtune!

This is about learning to tune but has nothing at all to do with what is causing the problem nor finding that issue and solving it.

We are only TRYING to help folks with open minds, understand when/why v-tuning doesn't work as expected/assumed due to poor O2 readings. Also applies to any O2 application, wide band, broadband, or narrow band....bad readings due to reversion.

If you want the best chance for closed loop success:
1) Use OEM headpipes. They have done the research to be sure the sensors have the best chance for proper readings.
2) Mount O2 sensors in pipes according to the Bosch info.
3) Understand where the exhaust is promoting reversion and manually tune those areas.

12 years and 5000 tunes and ya learn a lot. Just saying,
Bob
PS - Again, v-tune makes no changes to the calibration once it is loaded into the ECM, so to indicate the tune learned/changed based on v-tune input to the ECM is....well just ignorance. Just because someone repeats the same misinformation over and over does not put credibility to that person or the misinformation.

Is there something that makes reversion identifiable when looking at a DataMaster recording?

I realize that but the response that I originally quoted got me to wondering about reversion and if it might be something that you can see by studying a DataMaster recording.  Thanks