New exhaust pipe issues!

[Steve Cole]

We are beginning to see more and more mismade exhaust pipes coming on the market when it comes to the O2 sensor placement. So this is a CYA for all of you looking to replace the stock head pipes. These are not coming from no name manufactures but from the big suppliers! The issue comes from not placing the O2 bung properly in the pipe and/or making the bung the WRONG size! This is causing issues with how the bike runs and is purely an exhaust pipe manufacture issue.

http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/downloads/Oxgen_Sensor__Cat_WEB.pdf

Go to page D4 lower left corner of the page to see how to properly install and O2 sensor! You can continue on to page D5 and it describes a general procedure for O2 placement.

If you are going to put pipes of any brand on your bike make sure and inspect this area before wasting you time because the wrong sensor placement is going to give you a poorly running bike. The sensor itself MUST be inside the exhaust flow so it can properly read the exhaust mixture!

I have also seen some exhaust manufactures now moving the 2010 small sensor closer to the cylinder head. I have not seen any failures yet but I am concerned about this, as the new small sensor will not take the heat due to its size. It has a heater in the sensor to warm it when cold and that is why HD moved the placement downstream!

[panjs]

Thanks for the info   

[rbabos]

Well this is interesting. Problem is the situation sometimes dictates location and angle. I checked mine out and another question comes to mind. The rear pipe and front pipe on mine looks like it would direct the exhaust over the sensor a bit differently. Both the same distance from the head, but the rear has a straight section and the sensor is at 90 degrees to that. Front pipe has a slight bend on route to the sensor. Will this have enough effect on how the sensor reads, especially at lower rpms with lower flow rates? In particular on how it would vtune the low end.
Ron

[Steve Cole]

Vtune does nothing other than read the ECM. The ECM reads the sensors and if the sensors read wrong then the ECM will make the wrong decisions.  The problem is the exhaust supplier and no one else's. Follow the link I gave and it shows what needs to be done and if the exhaust suppliers do not follow the rules then the problems caused by it have nothing to do with the rest of the things that may or maynot get used. It seems HD can manage to do it and make it work so that means so can the rest of them!

Here is a photo of a stock HD head pipe. Note how the sensor elements stick down into the pipe.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Rider57]

Fellas, this is really not too new.
As far back as 2007 there were problems with this exact issue.
Buyer beware as they say. Check out your selection BEFORE you lay down that cash.
Good work Steve. I metioned this to Steve M. at nightrider just a couple of days ago.

[Steve Cole]

The worst part of this is that there are some that keep telling people that Closed Loop operation is not needed, so do not worry about it. Instead of fixing the problem there solution is to turn off the system and call it good 

[rbabos]

The worst part of this is that there are some that keep telling people that Closed Loop operation is not needed, so do not worry about it. Instead of fixing the problem there solution is to turn off the system and call it good 

I agree with you to a point, but if in fact my issues are exhaust based, which very well could be the case, I'm not about to scrap my Supertrap just because it don't get along with O2 sensors, possibly.  Setting 14.5 and manually tuning is a lot cheaper than a new exhaust system. Remember some of us have little tuning resources as far as extra equipment to locate the exact problem and professional tuners are nil in this region. Whatever works is my reasoning. I tried it your way and compatibility issues proved unsuccessful. The option was there and I ran with it. No regrets. I fought going open for a long time, but had no logical choice either financially and for my sanity.
Ron

[hotroadking]

so basically
you change your stuff (bike owner) we are not putting the bucks into R&D on 02 sensor position...

so who's doing it..   Ought to be known, so people know to stay away or go open loop

[Steve Cole]

The worst part of this is that there are some that keep telling people that Closed Loop operation is not needed, so do not worry about it. Instead of fixing the problem there solution is to turn off the system and call it good 

I agree with you to a point, but if in fact my issues are exhaust based, which very well could be the case, I'm not about to scrap my Supertrap just because it don't get along with O2 sensors, possibly.  Setting 14.5 and manually tuning is a lot cheaper than a new exhaust system. Remember some of us have little tuning resources as far as extra equipment to locate the exact problem and professional tuners are nil in this region. Whatever works is my reasoning. I tried it your way and compatibility issues proved unsuccessful. The option was there and I ran with it. No regrets. I fought going open for a long time, but had no logical choice either financially and for my sanity.
Ron

Problem is with your train of thought is you put a Broad Band sensor into the O2 bung and then try to tune again, what are the results going to be? They are going to be just as wrong! Look sometimes there is no way around it but to just say it's no good, period, is people being lazy in my book. This issue is real and it needs to be fixed and now that people understand what to look for it may help them up front instead of afterward. We've know about it for awhile and contacted several suppliers and told them but it does not seem to be getting any better and in some cases they are getting worse. It's a simple thing to do right. The ECM is going to follow what the sensor is telling it as that's how it works.

[wurk_truk]

Steve?  When Ron says 'manually'  he means alter the VE table 1/10th at a time and do a trial run... alter again... do a trial run... alter again... do a trial run...  UNTIL SOP the bike runs decently.

NOT install BB sensors. Or ANY tuning device whatsoever.  Simply guesstimate and move on from there.  AND.... that seemed to work, too!!!!!

HAHAH

Good subject!  I would ALSO like to hear what pipes are NOT making the 'grade' on this.

[Dennis The Menace]

I understand the issue, but it is an issue on automobiles as well as motorcycles.  And, when reading a spec sheet such as that from Bosch, I also understand that perfection expected in a lab or test environment.  The auto/MC makers generally dont pay that much attention to detail to ensure the O2 is setup within a 1/10 inch tolerance, or whatever the micro-measurement may be.

I can tell you that the O2;s on my Mercedes are no farther into the pipe as they were on my Bub 7's.  And, placement within the pipe, as mentioned earlier, may not be a matter of convenience/engineering, but necessity.  And, requirments on a auto are often different than on a motorcycle, which has significant pipe bends near the exhaust port (compared with many autos that place O2's closer to the cat., and therefore in a straight section of pipe usually.

Steve, I get what you are saying.  I think there is likely a thought process of "good enough" going on with the pipe makers.  And, I can see that with the car makers as well.

Now all they need to do is offer O2 's in small, medium and large.  lol  (actually, they do but not for every application)

menace

[Steve Cole]

The trick is to test and make sure what you've done still works, it's not about 1/10th inch one way of the other. This isn't about lab quality here it's about allowing the system to work properly or not. When you look at the bung in the pipe and it's long enough that the sensor when its screwed in, the sensing tip never makes it into the exhaust flow you have a problem. Now some are using old style sensors bungs and locations for the 18mm sensor and then adding a bushing to reduce it down to the new 12mm sensor and it pulls the sensor completely out of the flow. Then they wonder why things do not work right! The automotive world does not have these issue. They did long ago but everyone learned to do it right way back in the late '70's!

Good Enough to me means that it works, not that there is just a hole for you to screw the sensor into! If you want to sell a pipe as a RACE pipe then leave the hole out so the consumer knows about it. My worry about moving the new 12mm sensors up close to the head is they are not going to last as they will get overheated.

[strokerjlk]

The worst part of this is that there are some that keep telling people that Closed Loop operation is not needed, so do not worry about it. Instead of fixing the problem there solution is to turn off the system and call it good 

it's not needed unless you want to meet emissions , have a lean running hot machine, or of course tune with v-tune.

[Dennis The Menace]

Wow, these O2's take up to 600 degrees Celsius.  A Harley motor cant do any damage to them unless its making 1,120 degrees of heat.  So, they should be mounted within an inch of the pipe end.  My V&H Propipe has them within 3 inches.  Angle is a non issue, since they are mounted out of any moisture stream (unless I dump the bike on its side).

My O2s only extend about 1/2 inch into the pipe, which is a 1.75 inch pipe at the head.  They should extend at least 7/8 inch into the pipe.  So, I see the flaw, at least on my pipes.  Interesting.

Dennis

[Steve Cole]

The worst part of this is that there are some that keep telling people that Closed Loop operation is not needed, so do not worry about it. Instead of fixing the problem there solution is to turn off the system and call it good 

it's not needed unless you want to meet emissions , have a lean running hot machine, or of course tune with v-tune.

I would expect no less from you. If you event had a clue you could be dangerous. Any bike running Closed Loop that gets some of these incorrectly made pipes is going to have running issues, but by your way of thinking that's OK  That would be all 2006 Dyna's and all 2007 and later HD bikes! Using the O2 sensors properly is going to give you a cleaner, smoother and cooler running motor in all conditions as the system has the ability to correct for changes in fuel quality, temperature, altitude ect.

Let's look at Ron's issue since it been around here as of late. Tunes the bike and it's running good. Then after riding for a few days it gets worse. You tell him it because it was Vtuned which is more of your BS. Vtune wasn't on the bike changing things at all! The ECM is controlling the things that were happening, so if the ECM see things wrong it's going to change and the senors are what's telling the ECM what there. It's an exhaust issue.

I think people would be surprised at the exhaust temperatures of a HD. Normal running range is 700 F to over 1200 F at WOT. So the position has to be picked based on all running conditions and there in lies the issue. To close to the head and you can burn them up when the rider is under load and to far away they take to long to light off and come on line. This also can cause them to cool to much and switch back off line. The new heated sensor solves the need for them to be close to the head.

[strokerjlk]

 

would expect no less from you. If you event had a clue you could be dangerous. Any bike running Closed Loop that gets some of these incorrectly made pipes is going to have running issues, but by your way of thinking that's OK   That would be all 2006 Dyna's and all 2007 and later HD bikes! Using the O2 sensors properly is going to give you a cleaner, smoother and cooler running motor in all conditions as the system has the ability to correct for changes in fuel quality, temperature, altitude ect.

and I would expect no less from you. same ole same ole ...someone disagrees with you and you start your arrogant BS ..trying to discredit them.
keep blaming everything but v-tune. you got some people buffaloed.
if you tune to 13.8 14.0-14.2 open loop you still can run any fuel quality you run into. temperature wont be as big of a problem since your not running 14.68 the ECM is going to make changes for altitude closed or open loop.
since you brought up Ron's bike ....funny since going open loop he is finally enjoying the bike.

[Rider57]

The system has to be working correctly to run as designed. That is to say that the O2's, MAP, CHT and what have you, have to operating within the perameters as designed.
If the bike is tuned with vTune, SEST, SERT or what ever you chose and those components are not giving true information back to the ECU, then no matter what you do making it sound and ride right is only masking the problem.
Been there, done that!

[Steve Cole]

would expect no less from you. If you event had a clue you could be dangerous. Any bike running Closed Loop that gets some of these incorrectly made pipes is going to have running issues, but by your way of thinking that's OK   That would be all 2006 Dyna's and all 2007 and later HD bikes! Using the O2 sensors properly is going to give you a cleaner, smoother and cooler running motor in all conditions as the system has the ability to correct for changes in fuel quality, temperature, altitude ect.

and I would expect no less from you. same ole same ole ...someone disagrees with you and you start your arrogant BS ..trying to discredit them.
keep blaming everything but v-tune. you got some people buffaloed.
if you tune to 13.8 14.0-14.2 open loop you still can run any fuel quality you run into. temperature wont be as big of a problem since your not running 14.68 the ECM is going to make changes for altitude closed or open loop.
since you brought up Ron's bike ....funny since going open loop he is finally enjoying the bike.

The truth hurts doesn't it! I do not have to try and discredit you as you do that quite nicely all by yourself.

The bike will not compensate for fuel changes at all when running open loop, since it doesn't know about fuel changes it cannot compensate for altitude changes properly either! I thought that you at least knew that much, my mistake. Again, if you had bothered to learn anything about using Vtune you would know that you do not have to run at 14.68 but then again you haven't done it.

Does anyone think if the sensor cannot read properly do to placement issues you can change to another sensor and expect it to read correctly? I am open for anyone to disagree but when you do, do not expect me to just let it go if what you’re saying is wrong. I posted the information so that those unknowing customers would know what's right and wrong. I made sure to back it up with the data from the manufacture of the sensors just so you could not attack the facts and say they are made up like you always try too.

You are right about one thing and that is Ron is now enjoying his bike but that still doesn't solve the problem at all. Most find and solving the issue, you seem to just want to cover it up and blame something else.

[Dennis The Menace]

Personally, I dont want to get in the middle here.  But for sake of clarity to everyone else, it should be noted that a bike can run well on either closed or open loop, depending on application.  Evidence pre-06/07 bikes that were open loop.  So, both points are valid.

As for optimizing closed loop operation, Steve is correct, its only as good as its weakest link.  As noted above, the O2 on my new pipes doesnt extend a proper length into the exhaust tube to be in the prime exhaust stream.  Does that make it completely ineffective?  Probably not, but certainly not optimal.

This kind of goes back to my original comments that perhaps the pipe makers take a "good enough" approach to the design.  I concur with Steve that if we want optimal function, then more engineering (and, thus, manufacturing) needs to go into these pipes.

This is a good discussion to get people to think more critically of the fuel delivery system.  I know I have learned a great deal form everyone here about things like this, so keep the info rolling.  I just hope you guys can keep the personal attacks out of it so this thread doesnt get locked.  This is good info for all of us.

menace

[HogMike]

Vtune does nothing other than read the ECM. The ECM reads the sensors and if the sensors read wrong then the ECM will make the wrong decisions.  The problem is the exhaust supplier and no one else's. Follow the link I gave and it shows what needs to be done and if the exhaust suppliers do not follow the rules then the problems caused by it have nothing to do with the rest of the things that may or maynot get used. It seems HD can manage to do it and make it work so that means so can the rest of them!

Here is a photo of a stock HD head pipe. Note how the sensor elements stick down into the pipe.

Just to clarify, those "white things" (reply #3) are not really "sensor elements", they are Sharpies, but, they are similar size to the actual sensors to give people an idea. The white shows up better in the photo than the actual sensors.
Do you think Harley would go to the extra time/$ to design this area the way they did with the extended tube if they could cut costs and save a few pennies?
Their engineers get big bucks to design these things and still satisfy the bean counters.
Just for reference, take a look at the aftermarket head pipes, and you will see various designs that THEY decide can do a better job than the factory, sometimes they do, sometimes they do not!
What is the R&D budget from Harley vs. "Back Yard Engineering"?
Just food for thought, I'm not a great fan of Harley FYI.
Again, this is JMHO!

Enclosed is a shot of the outside of the '09 and '10 head pipes for reference.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[strokerjlk]

Personally, I dont want to get in the middle here.  But for sake of clarity to everyone else, it should be noted that a bike can run well on either closed or open loop, depending on application.  Evidence pre-06/07 bikes that were open loop.  So, both points are valid

exactly. and guess what, they compensate very well for altitude.

Again, if you had bothered to learn anything about using Vtune you would know that you do not have to run at 14.68 but then again you haven't done it.

I have used it as I have said before. it would be nice if it worked as described. but it doesnt. and I am not the only one that has found this out. it is really a pretty good joke among most tuners that have used it.
as far as 14.68 the farther away you go from it with CLB the worse the tune degrades over time. so yes I know all about what AFR you can run in closed loop. ...no matter what method you use to get there.

[Steve Cole]

See there you go trying to call yourself a tuner again. Just because you bought an old broken down dyno from Zepka HD when they junked it and put it in your home garage doesn't make you a tuner. A tune will not degrade if the sensors are reading the same thing over and over again. This is where you again do not understand how things work.

People need to know how things really work so it would be nice if it was explained and you did not try to confuse them with your BS. The ECM is ONLY going to make changes to the running of the bike if it see's a different reading from the sensors. So guess what, if your tuning degrades then this is what's happening. Nothing from Mastertune to Vtune to SESPT causes it! None of these devices are attached to or connected to the bike when the tune goes down the drain. So the question needs to be answered what is causing the ECM to see different readings. In the case I've pointed out it's being cause by incorrect placement of the O2 sensors into the exhaust pipes. Since this is getting worse instead of better it's time to let people know what to look for. We've talked with several exhaust manufactures and told them about the issue but have not seen them change what they are doing.

[strokerjlk]

See there you go trying to call yourself a tuner again. Just because you bought an old broken down dyno from Zepka HD when they junked it and put it in your home garage doesn't make you a tuner. A tune will not degrade if the sensors are reading the same thing over and over again. This is where you again do not understand how things work.

People need to know how things really work so it would be nice if it was explained and you did not try to confuse them with your BS. The ECM is ONLY going to make changes to the running of the bike if it see's a different reading from the sensors. So guess what, if your tuning degrades then this is what's happening. Nothing from Mastertune to Vtune to SESPT causes it! None of these devices are attached to or connected to the bike when the tune goes down the drain. So the question needs to be answered what is causing the ECM to see different readings. In the case I've pointed out it's being cause by incorrect placement of the O2 sensors into the exhaust pipes. Since this is getting worse instead of better it's time to let people know what to look for. We've talked with several exhaust manufactures and told them about the issue but have not seen them change what they are doing.

I dont have to qualify myself to you,as a tuner my results speak for themselves. you see I could give a rats AZZ what you think of me. I am not one to bow down and kiss your arrogant azz. so now if I pretended to agreed with you and was in bed with you on v- tune I assume my broken down old dyno would be great in your eyes.   
not gonna happen. meanwhile I will keep correcting all the junk tunes v-tune brings me, caused by a incomplete inadequate program.
gotta go pack for a 6000 mile trip that will take me from sea level to over 14000 ft...man I hope my 07 open loop wide band tune gets me there
do you even ride a Harley? if not, have you ever put any miles on a closed loop bike?

[BVHOG]

Steve, have you considered the real reason for the problems with the sensor placement, open pipes without cats and resulting reversion, what do you suppose that reversion at closed loop areas is going to do once an adaptive fuel correction is made? While tuning (with another broken down old dyno) I can view things real time see when the sensors (Wide but not really wideband)bounce around from reversion and ignore that data. Your system takes that data (with some filtering I suspect)and applies it blindly via V-tune. Sure the VE tables can be viewed after but the average user will not know if the numbers look out of place anyway. You are the the ONLY person in the tuning industry that consistently tries to discredit the info a wide band (OK, not really a wideband) sensor provides and touts the merits of the narrow$. The reason $hould be obvious.
The improper placement of these sensors and the degradation of the tune from the placement can easily be remedied by not incorporating them in the tune, period.
The data sheet on these new smaller sensors used in the 2010 Touring models shows an operating range of up to 600C with 800C as max, seems it would be no problem to move them upstream a bit to avoid some of the reversion problems associated with these crappy pipes. As for the placement, nothing new there either, they are simply to be installed as any 02  as to avoid contamination from condensation and excessive heat and be far enough into the pipe for an accurate sample. Lots of 07 up aftermarket pipes aren't even close to specs, not just the new bikes.
As for the open loop closed loop debate, I know the answer to that and since you make your living off of a system that only partially tunes a motorcycle using the narrow bands and I don't expect you to have an open mind concerning this.
And since when does a speed density system not adapt to altitude changes?
So go ahead now and tell me I don't know anything about tuning if that's what you feel the need to do and I will just go on making these bikes run correctly my way.
You have a great product in Mastertune, V-tune not so much.

[FLTRI]

FWIW,
I have used the v-tune for all kinds of builds and exhausts for over a year now. There have been times where I have needed to learn what is "actually" happening rather than what I assumed was happening, in order to get the system to successfully v-tune and where the system cannot be used for tuning in closed loop due to problems and issues with the exhaust....not the v-tune software.

If the exhaust system is poorly designed (promotes reversion) the O2 sensor sees air mixed in with exhaust (reversion) and cannot be relied upon for manual, auto, or v-tuning.

Now add the fact that several exhaust mfgs have purposely? kept the O2 tip out of the exhaust stream....possibly because they feel it is more important to have no intrusion for flow rather than EFI closed loop functionality.

Experienced tuners know about reversion and the more experience the better they are able to deal (tune) with and around it.

If a tuner were to merely replace the OEM sensors with broadband sensors and then relied on the readings during reversion, it would indicate lean....just like the OEM sensors. So it makes virtually no difference if the sensor is wide, broad, or narrow band....garbage in garbage out. Sound familiar?

The tuner needs to be capable of identifying tuning anomalies and work with the bike's running quality as equipped.

The above is why tuners have secure professions and should not buck new technology (to them) but learn and maximize their tuning results using technology rather than simply bad mouthing their results from lack of experience and knowledge.

As always, JMHO,
Bob