Question on heat and timing

[03cvo]

Saved this below quote... question - is he talking across the board timing or in certain places. and if so what places
thanks in advance.... (pun intended.....)

The problem with the heat on the 2007 TC's is not just lean conditions. THE TIMING IS RETARDED! I screamed it because I have metioned it here several times and everybody keps going back to they are too lean. Even when they are fattened up they still run too hot and the pipes will glow. The fuel helps, but it does not cure it. Put some timing in them and they cool down. I have seen this on every 07 I have had on the dyno. With the timing kicked up, they pipes don't glow even with the AFR at 14.6. I've tried this. Put the cruise areas AFR at 13.8 to 14.2 and the wide open at 13.2 to 13.4 along with advancing the timing, they will run stronger and cooler and they quit pinging.
   Some areas of the ignition map is 4 degres retraded from the older bikes, some are 10 or more degrees retarded.
   Mike Roland.

[Eleft36]

I have advanced, as you said, using TMax with excellent results.
This solution is to simple.
Thanks for bringing it up here.

Al

[Steve Cole]

Depends greatly on the cylinder head and piston design, I would not make a blanket statement with out know those 2 very important items. If the bike is equipped a fast burn chamber you do not need as much advance as a slow burn chamber. That said a stock bike can be advanced over factory specifications as long as your not looking at emissions.

[03cvo]

OK here’s the deal.

Did the 1st procedure  wannabe mayor you-tubed on changing the timing for decal pop. (thanks by the way if you read this) . Anyway just got  back from a road trip and got tied up in const./ accident traffic. Not exactly stop and go but close.

Triple digit ambient air temp of 105ish. My ride- 07 FLHRSE3 with fat cats and 32H cam. With the above conditions the dip stick oil temp was ~280 degrees… Damned hot.

So the question remains where do I change the timing to cool this down?? Or will changing the timing cool it down


so Al, below….. explain the solution to me please…..

Eleft36   I have advanced, as you said, using TMax with excellent results.
This solution is to simple. 
Thanks for bringing it up here.



Steve Cole
Factory pistons and stock heads…not worried bout emissions.

[HarleyFranco]

03cvo,

If you are using the TTS you can use the spark temperature correction table.
Take out say 2 deg of timing across the maps, and add it back in to the spark correction.  Then you can adjust the timimg based on temperature from the correction table.

Frank

[7hogs]

If the timing is to retarded it will produce heat. Most of the Tmax maps I have adjusted the first thing it get back is that the bike is running cooler. Each motor has its own character so you will have to play with it. My cruise AFR is set at 13.716 on a 107 and it seems to like that matched with the timing I use. I just went 550 miles on a really hot day and the oil temp hit 229 and on the same ride home but much cooler it hit 214 with lower fairings on.

I could go to 14.0 to get better mileage but that is not what I am going for.

[hrdtail78]

If the timing is to retarded it will produce heat. Most of the Tmax maps I have adjusted the first thing it get back is that the bike is running cooler. Each motor has its own character so you will have to play with it. My cruise AFR is set at 13.716 on a 107 and it seems to like that matched with the timing I use. I just went 550 miles on a really hot day and the oil temp hit 229 and on the same ride home but much cooler it hit 214 with lower fairings on.

I could go to 14.0 to get better mileage but that is not what I am going for.

How much are they retarted?  Done several 07 and newer tunes with exhuast and intake.  Depends on several factor of were the timing winds up.  Haven't retuned any stock bikes.

[Paniolo]

I too have the T-Max and would like my bike to run cooler. How much are you advancing the timing, and in which settings and areas?

[Eleft36]

OK here’s the deal.

Did the 1st procedure  wannabe mayor you-tubed on changing the timing for decal pop. (thanks by the way if you read this) . Anyway just got  back from a road trip and got tied up in const./ accident traffic. Not exactly stop and go but close.

Triple digit ambient air temp of 105ish. My ride- 07 FLHRSE3 with fat cats and 32H cam. With the above conditions the dip stick oil temp was ~280 degrees… Damned hot.

So the question remains where do I change the timing to cool this down?? Or will changing the timing cool it down


so Al, below….. explain the solution to me please…..

Eleft36   I have advanced, as you said, using TMax with excellent results.
This solution is to simple. 
Thanks for bringing it up here.




Steve Cole
Factory pistons and stock heads…not worried bout emissions.

Are you using TMax?
Do you know your dipstick temperature is accurate? I don't use one any more, 'don't think it is useful information ..Harley says 230* is normal, at what ambient?.
I raised timing just off idle through my light cruise TPS% area, a little at a time to suite my riding habit.  Module log shows head temperature.
Al



[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

Did the 1st procedure  wannabe mayor you-tubed on changing the timing for decal pop. (thanks by the way if you read this)

I see that fellow posting from time to time, so I think he'll probably see this.   

Anyway just got  back from a road trip and got tied up in const./ accident traffic. Not exactly stop and go but close.

Triple digit ambient air temp of 105ish. My ride- 07 FLHRSE3 with fat cats and 32H cam. With the above conditions the dip stick oil temp was ~280 degrees… Damned hot.

So the question remains where do I change the timing to cool this down?? Or will changing the timing cool it down

post your current map so we can take a look and offer suggestions. 

[7hogs]

I too have the T-Max and would like my bike to run cooler. How much are you advancing the timing, and in which settings and areas?

Need to see your MAP.1

Couple of suggestions

Oil cooler
Do not use SYN3 used Redline in your motor Shockproof in your Tranny

Use a cooler spark plug

Advance timing at cruise and with the quality of gas now I would not go above 14.2 

That comment will open up some discussion.

[mayor]

Advance timing at cruise and with the quality of gas now I would not go above 14.2 

That comment will open up some discussion.

no argument on that from me.      Max actually has me converted to not going above 14 now (on my efi bagger...my carb bikes are a different story ).   

[Sonny S.]

>>Max actually has me converted to not going above 14 now (on my efi bagger...my carb bikes are a different story  ).   <<

why ?

[7hogs]

>>Max actually has me converted to not going above 14 now (on my efi bagger...my carb bikes are a different story  ).   <<

why ?

I have found 13.716 on my tmax and build gives me 38-45 and the power is good. Depends on your build, where you buy gas and if they use Ethanol to boost octane 13.8 - 14.0 max will give you good mileage plus power on a bagger you may go 14.2 on a lighter bike if you want but I still would not go above 14.0 on a bike that is not stock. JMO

[glens]

If you set it to "14.2" it'll be 0.9673 lambda no matter what fuel you get.  I wouldn't worry about it in the least because it'll be all the same as 14.2 if you actually had any fuel in several years which would make that figure be an actual one.  AFR numbers are horse-and-carriage anymore.  The ones we use aren't really what they are and if we used numbers that were, they'd only be good for maybe a few tanks of fuel if you were in one place long enough, and they wouldn't be any less confusing.

Don't worry about what fuel you're using.  Just set the as-reference-gas AFR numbers as if you were running the reference gas.  The numbers will be wrong in use (likely as not, at all times now anyway), but the resultant relationship to lambda will remain correct.  It'd just be easier to use the lambda numbers and be factually done with it.

[mayor]

>>Max actually has me converted to not going above 14 now (on my efi bagger...my carb bikes are a different story  ).   <<

why ?

well, I think I should credit you a little in that decision as well.     ...since we've had a few recent conversations about afr.... 

..the reason I look at the two different (carb v. efi) is:

1. my carb bikes are actually leaner and richer than 14:1 at cruise (at the same time)...mainly because carbs are the great compromise.  Mostly, I'm leaner than 14:1... but I also have the security of timing being controlled by load with my carb bikes, plus they are lighter bikes (and they're groovy builds ). 

2. the afr per tps per rpm on the T-max is much more controlled, so for the most part compromise isn't really necessary.  auto-tune settings of 14:1 provides readings by the T-max o2 sensors that are pretty close to 14:1, unlike my carbs that can be 13.8-14.5 when trying for settings around 14:1. 

3. my milage did not seem to suffer after I changed from 14.2:1 to 14:1 afr...although that could be because I might potentially have a hole in my fuel hose in the tank.   

4. I still don't trust the reported afr values based on the T-max    ....or the voodoo charms of efi in general.  Mainly because of all the discussions of lambda and differences in fuel sources.   I would rather be slightly richer but much safer... 

5. I still don't completely trust the fellow whose been adjusting my timing based on tps and rpm  , since load seen by the engine isn't factored into timing with anything but throttle position.  I would rather be safe with afr, so that I can isolate any issues that I could potentially have to be timing related instead of a combination between timing and afr.   

[Sonny S.]

oh

[Paniolo]

I too have the T-Max and would like my bike to run cooler. How much are you advancing the timing, and in which settings and areas?

Need to see your MAP.1

Couple of suggestions

Oil cooler
Do not use SYN3 used Redline in your motor Shockproof in your Tranny

Use a cooler spark plug

Advance timing at cruise and with the quality of gas now I would not go above 14.2 

That comment will open up some discussion.

Jim,

I just sent you the MAP. It's actually one that you tweaked for me a couple of months ago. The bike runs so well I am hesitant to touch it. I did advance it some in the timing vs engine speed field, but am hesitant to do too much as I do not want to invite ping or knock. The bike runs much better and cooler than before, but after it gets heat soaked sitting in traffic (oil temps at 300) it takes a really long time (20 mins) of freeway riding for the temps to drop to 260. I am running an HD oil cooler and regular hd oil.

I can't tell you how pleased I am with the way it runs. It fires right up and runs and idles better than it ever has. My mpgs have still been around 34mpg, but last weekend I got 37.5 with a passenger! I thought for sure the added weight would make the mpgs drop, but I guess riding conservatively with her on the back made the difference. Next Wednesday I leave for Arizona. That long ride will tell the tale of the tune.

Anyway, I'm interested to see what your timing changes are.

Mark