SE Compensator ?

[Mr. Fatty]

Just found a thread on another site where a guy has 15k miles and has the same wear marks on the spokes as the one in the pics from page 8 of this thread. Am waiting for a reply on what oil he used in the primary (it was not red).  Is there any answer to prevention of that?
I think we all know the ultimate answer

[slik rik]

I dont believe there is a conclusion other than the need to get more lube to that area, but I believe that the "fixes" presented here are there to show what can be done. I think that time will tell with these mods, just hoping that these posts will continue and a real conclusive fix for this will be stumbled upon

[HDDOC]

I dont believe there is a conclusion other than the need to get more lube to that area, but I believe that the "fixes" presented here are there to show what can be done. I think that time will tell with these mods, just hoping that these posts will continue and a real conclusive fix for this will be stumbled upon

I believe these pics are what you seen on the other site, Does not look pretty. Doc

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[HDDOC]

Posted pics on wrong reply.  Sorry Doc

[Doshi]

Just to add a little more to the thinking of "outside the box".  Keeping the area of the mating surfaces lubed, appears to be the common goal.  What if 3 chamfered holes were drilled in between the compensating sprocket teeth downward, exiting in the area of the sprocket where the cam slider makes contact?  And 3 more holes exiting 60* from the holes just drilled?  The chamfer would be angled to take advantage of the rotational force with the hopes of supplying oil to the area of the cam slider.  This oil could reduce the amount of friction caused from the slider and compensator, thus reducing the amount of metal particles that could lead to premature wear of the compensator bore.  Of course this could not be done if the holes were to cause undo stress to the compensator.  What if?

[customrdr]

    Max, What do you think drilling a hole, starting at the top where the compensator chain goes, and drilling straight down threw the 3 spokes and into the bore.That way it seems that the oil hole will be gitting more oil from off the chain. Just a wild guess.   

The only thing that would be 100% fix is a sealed bearing of some form that has it's own permanent lube.

I doubt this would be the 100% fix,,Not even close..  Be my guest on trying it.. The problem is that the bearing would be able to support the axial loading required. Add a thrust surface and you are back to where you started except for the radial load..  Also you would then have a bearing that has limited travel.. Rocking the bearing back and forth, wears that balls and races in short order.. Bearings need to spin..  You might get some walking if you let one of the races float. Might make for longer life..

Best thing?

Go back to the old TC / evo comp... 

Max

[1FSTRK]

I believe when all is said and done this is a design/metallurgy problem and while we will come upon different ways to extend the life of this product the fix will only come when Harley adds a new letter to the end of the part number as they so often do. On a good note that may be sooner then later now that they will be trying to drag race baggers with this product.
 
As a stop gap has anyone one tried a high pressure baked on coating? I have used it on cams, lifters, transmission gears and shafts with good results. Also might try having Cryogenic treated.

[Doshi]

I think HD addressed the issue of bore lubrication with the slotted thrust washer.  I believe the thrust washer design, while adequate for clean environments, did not allow enough oil flow to the bore in such a harsh (dirty) environment.  My thoughts are to try and reduce friction between the slider and the sprocket, thus reducing the amount of contaminates.  With that said, more frequent primary oil changes when new and definitely when new components are installed.  Clean up the environment in which these parts are operating in, along with proper lubrication may lead to less part failures.

[Admiral Akbar]

Max, What do you think drilling a hole, starting at the top where the compensator chain goes, and drilling straight down threw the 3 spokes and into the bore.That way it seems that the oil hole will be gitting more oil from off the chain.

I'm not sure that drilling the hole would help.. I'm just guessing though.. Drilling hole down the middle of the spoke would only serve to pull the oil out due to centrifugal force. After all the cranks needs to spin..  Personally I like the ground groove on the thrust face.  If you look at the pics above.  The spot that had the fretting was the outer edge of the thrust surface. Seems to me that the slot on the thrust surface would help to pull oil through along the thrust surface. Any movement of the sprocket would work the oil between the thrust surfaces. Since the primary  chain and rotor are tossing oil around, it might be advantageous to trough some of the oil into the compensator assy.  The early TC / evo comps hung out there some where the SE one is buried under the sprocket.

As far as the spoke galling goes on the picture above, I'd suspect that the surface finish and hardness. These surfaces are not even so point contact pressures can be very high. The point contact can be high enough to for some types of oil to not work well, Might be worth while to polish or lap the spokes to the cam with some 600 grit lapping compound.. 

A bearing or cam expert could probably point out if I'm full of it or not..

Max

[rbabos]

I wonder how a liberal coat of never sieze will work on that surface. 

Real good after it gets into the clutch... 

Max

if there's no oil getting in there, it can't wash the never seez out....

The heat and back and forth rotation eventually beats it all out. I mean all of it.
Ron

[rbabos]

Max, What do you think drilling a hole, starting at the top where the compensator chain goes, and drilling straight down threw the 3 spokes and into the bore.That way it seems that the oil hole will be gitting more oil from off the chain.

I'm not sure that drilling the hole would help.. I'm just guessing though.. Drilling hole down the middle of the spoke would only serve to pull the oil out due to centrifugal force. After all the cranks needs to spin..  Personally I like the ground groove on the thrust face.  If you look at the pics above.  The spot that had the fretting was the outer edge of the thrust surface. Seems to me that the slot on the thrust surface would help to pull oil through along the thrust surface. Any movement of the sprocket would work the oil between the thrust surfaces. Since the primary  chain and rotor are tossing oil around, it might be advantageous to trough some of the oil into the compensator assy.  The early TC / evo comps hung out there some where the SE one is buried under the sprocket.

As far as the spoke galling goes on the picture above, I'd suspect that the surface finish and hardness. These surfaces are not even so point contact pressures can be very high. The point contact can be high enough to for some types of oil to not work well, Might be worth while to polish or lap the spokes to the cam with some 600 grit lapping compound.. 

A bearing or cam expert could probably point out if I'm full of it or not..

Max

Max: I agree in the fact the spoke contacts are not hard enought to handle the loads. Thin oils will accelerate wear substantially. The cam itself seems to only polish itself up being so much harder and seem up to the task . However making the sprocket harder may not be a wise decision either. As far as the pics that are posted, the rotor has no problems. This face is where the extension shaft butts up against and the discs sit on top of the extension shaft . The cam is typical and has likely very little wear on it other than surface polishing. The gear however has quite a bit of material chewed off from the cam rubbing it. They will all do this, and depending on lubes use some will wear quicker than others. There will be some initial wear after a new install to mate the spokes to the cam lobes and the wear should reduce to some extent. This is why I mentioned to index the cam and gear so they go back together and match the wear points. Mixing it up could cause more pressure on one spoke than the other and place uneven pressure on the bore as the springs compress.
Ron

[Mr. Fatty]

Thanks Doc thats the post. Turns out he used syn 3.

[les]

What about drilling holes instead of the grooving?  There are a couple/few places in the engine where oil channel holes are drilled.  If three holes were drilled in between the spokes, would that be a possible solution?

If these holes were drilled, then what "might" happen.  If the spoke were at high noon when stopped, then the oil would run down the spoke, down the two archs of the journal, and into the two holes.  The holes would deposit the oil into the middle of the journal.

[rbabos]

Thanks Doc thats the post. Turns out he used syn 3.

Interesting. Wasn't syn3 accepatable for gear boxes at one time and then problems started to occur? Personally, I look at the comp as a big ugly gear as in how the cam rubs the spokes.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

I dont believe there is a conclusion other than the need to get more lube to that area, but I believe that the "fixes" presented here are there to show what can be done. I think that time will tell with these mods, just hoping that these posts will continue and a real conclusive fix for this will be stumbled upon

This comp was designed for, and was OE on, the Rocker... big ass tire and NO IDS.  After awhile, and now it is OE on baggers.  MOCO will be forced into an upgrade eventually, I hope, simply because the bagger crowd rides the wheels off their bikes, while Rocker owners do what?  1K a year?

[HD/Wrench]

here are some more.

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[rbabos]

I dont believe there is a conclusion other than the need to get more lube to that area, but I believe that the "fixes" presented here are there to show what can be done. I think that time will tell with these mods, just hoping that these posts will continue and a real conclusive fix for this will be stumbled upon

This comp was designed for, and was OE on, the Rocker... big ass tire and NO IDS.  After awhile, and now it is OE on baggers.  MOCO will be forced into an upgrade eventually, I hope, simply because the bagger crowd rides the wheels off their bikes, while Rocker owners do what?  1K a year?

Most likely the problem is noted and will be common enough that a new design will come out. Could take a couple of years to exhaust present supply and will be sneaked in as if there never was a problem in the first place. You know, just like there never was a problem with the stock comp starting in 07. Will be interesting to see what the actual engineered factory fix will look like.
Ron

[HD/Wrench]

Well we are running one on that 120 with the supercharger That will be a good test for it

[rbabos]

Well we are running one on that 120 with the supercharger That will be a good test for it

Yup. That should just about cut the spokes right out of it, or at least bend them.  Good thing tire spin or a wheelie control the max stress that can be applied to it but on a dyno this safety valve is cancelled out
Ron

[road-dawgs1]

here are some more.

Steve, how many miles on that one?  What fluid was run?

[HD/Wrench]

ATF and about 2500 miles,  FLuid wise it does seem that ATF does not provide enough lube for this type of comp. Funny as you never saw this type of wear on the ramps on the old version. Not like fluid is not getting on the ramps...  I think Don said that the metal was softer or something like that seems to be spot on.

[Sc00ter]

ATF and about 2500 miles,  FLuid wise it does seem that ATF does not provide enough lube for this type of comp. Funny as you never saw this type of wear on the ramps on the old version. Not like fluid is not getting on the ramps...  I think Don said that the metal was softer or something like that seems to be spot on.

The SE compensator is designed to support up to 7x the energy absorption capacity over the original stock compensator.  More clamp force equals more wear potential of the ramps/cams. 

Not that I want to turn this thread into an oil debate, but I would concur that ATF does not provide effective lubrication.  I run Red Line V Twin Primary Case Oil with satisfactory compensator cam/ramp wear results.




"Red Line ® Motorcycle V-Twin Primary Case Oil with ShockProof® features microscopic solid medium to provide cushioning between gear teeth, while maintaining lower drag. V-Twin Primary quiets chains and offers improved wet-clutch operation."  

[autoworker]

I have mentioned this before....the one problem I see is that the load is concentrated to a much smaller area especially on the sprocket side because they are not mating ramps as was the case on the original compensator(s) that previous versions have.

[Admiral Akbar]

the one problem I see is that the load is concentrated to a much smaller area especially on the sprocket side because they are not mating ramps as was the case on the original compensator(s) that previous versions have.

One counter point to make is probably the same for twisted cranks.. Some ramps mate better than others.. The stockers I had didn't look bad at all for 11K.. I'm not using ATF also...

Max

[Bakon]

So what is the concensus?
Switch out a stock (2010 and older) for a SE which will end up trash?
Keep the stock until it breaks and use another stock or SE (like the 2011 touring)?