What do we want in a Tuner ?

[FLTRI]

Are we still talking user accessable tuning options?

Yes, and hopefully without the need to reinvent the "wheel", but to use what there is in existance, to work with...which IMO is a very powerful tool.
Bob

[strokerjlk]

just a low dollar tuning device that allows access to the ecu. no extras. one for dyno tuners. no extra features like data log, auto tune, v tune , smart tune. price it around 200.00
as long as we are wishing. 

[hotroadking]

Been some good ideas here

I'd like to see a more comprehensive collection of data on every run, not only V-tune data but all data
why can't it collect both data at the same time so we can tie fixing detonation issues at the same time
we're setting VE's.  It would cut runs in half.

Also easier access to the data area information, the way you have to select factors is cumbersome
and you should be able to store reports for the data that you use consistently vs having to go back
and reset the fields you want each time... (if you can I haven't found out how)

Extrapolation of higher VE from data in VE runs accepted, this should be a no brainer, I'm not sure why I need to do the math and set each cell when the software should be able to do this without any problems as long as the formula is the same....  If a liability issue is perceived for "making that change" for the end user put a disclaimer button you accept the changes. 

Factors should be set up for bike.  In that it's always going to be the same bike you tune every time because every manuf setups the connection to be vin related, there should be a table where you setup engine, injector, speedo, all those factors, it's a pain when you tune and upgrade maps with VE's to have to click OK for the speedo setting everytime as if I'm making changes to that, as well as the ACR, those should be base settings for the bike, done at the initial setup.   You could even select cam profile, CUI, exhaust, etc

Just a few things. I'd have more but I'm not looking at the thing right now.

[Mr. Wizard]

Been some good ideas here

I'd like to see a more comprehensive collection of data on every run, not only V-tune data but all data
why can't it collect both data at the same time so we can tie fixing detonation issues at the same time
we're setting VE's.  It would cut runs in half.

Knock retard could also be fuel. So, until your VE's are properly calibrated and your AFR/Lambda is reset any knock retard you see during the VTune process will be useless information to you.

At lest this is the way I understand it.


-wiz

[Steve Cole]

One also needs to understand that there is a data limit in the system. So the more you ask for the slower it comes out. If the data comes out to slowly it is useless information. This is why DataMaster has the various data stream information to select, as we are trrying to keep the speed of the data through put up to an acceptable level.

[hotroadking]

Wiz true, but as you tune, the VE's are getting set, so you would at least be
one step ahead, and you would know it's fuel related as you could see the data
and compare the results from ve run to ve run, so the knock goes away, all other things
being constant the VE may have fixed it.. 

I'd like to see the data run graph selection a little less cumbersome,
it's almost like a report writer tacked onto the data file...

At least let us save the reports that way you can go back and click
Spark Knock Table, AFR, TPS, or whatever reports you like if we have to
makeup  our own it would be nice to be able to recall them vs. rebuild them run
after run.

I know that using my old P2 laptop I got half the data
that my friend gets using USB on a newer laptop so there
is that issue...

[rbabos]

I'd like tts to be live edit in some areas. That's all.
Ron

[FLTRI]

From the tuners here:
Would you be willing to pay extra for a live tuning system for your dyno?
Bob

[FLTRI]

Bump

[TXP]

We basically already have one with Vtune. Look at how much more accuracy we have, albeit a little harder to achieve with a sort of hybridized method from old way to new way with the Mastertune product and Vtune to what we achieve with say powercommander and tuninglink. Sure TL is fast and I've always liked the fact I can blow one off the dyno with a two cyl tune about every 35 to 45 minutes depending on the configuration of the unit. Good money there but you can never be as accurate with an add on product. The heavier the mods the more this shows. Customers are generally happy with the results, but TL is not perfect by a long shot, its only as good as the user. Like any other tool. I would REALLY like to see a FAST semi auto program similar to vtune to dial in timing faster and more accurately. That is to me the most important obstacle left to overcome. Fast timing adjustment. My official tuning wish for the New Year.

[FLTRI]

Good info and I agree, we need auto-tune timing, but I wonder what's kept that from being done.
I do know one thing:
Customer/market demand drives product development.
Bob

[choseneasy]

I had heard one time that patents were the biggest obstacle to getting auto-timing. Not sure of the validity of this comment--- maybe others have some insight?.....

[TXP]

I definitely wonder how practical an "auto timing" feature really is. I have noticed many times on 100% roll ons on the dyno in 5th gear, particularly in the lower rpm's, timing is removed via ion sense that is difficult if not impossible to reproduce when testing on the road. We are creating unnatural load conditions which produce unnatural data IE the excessive timing reduction due to those unnatural conditions. I'm sure other tuners are well aware of this anomaly as well. What are your thoughts on this?

[Don D]

I would like to see the timing work similar to the way the AFV works in an adaptive way. therefore fast retard could deal with conditions such as this dyno high load deal but not commit to a permant change unless this same condition is observed a programmed number of occurances with some tolerance for temporary conditions. Adaptive Timing, so to speak.
Still wonder with all the technology we have at our fingertips why nobody has invented and properly packaged a MAF sensor to add with the Delphi. I know about manifold pulsing maybe there are work arounds.

[1FSTRK]

From the tuners here:
Would you be willing to pay extra for a live tuning system for your dyno?
Bob

I talked to both of the tuners that I have used and they both said yes in a heartbeat. After all that is what power commander does. They charge for their tuning link software

[TXP]

They sure do. $1500 for the first one year lease after you pass their course in Las Vegas and $1250 per year on renewals. Anyone who is now a Dynojet approved "tuning center" will have to be re certified this year after the July 1, 2011 renewal deadline in order to remain a tuning center and be "eligible" to lease the TL software. But TL is about speed, not necessarily accuracy. If you are doing a large enough volume of Powercommanders its well worth the money. If your PC volume is low, then its a waste of money. So only higher volume shops will consistently invest in this type of software or any other "autotune" type software for whichever product. It all boils down to cubic dollars. The term "autotune" is really kind of a misnomer in my opinion. Maybe tuning aid software is more accurate. I don't think we are going to see a software replacement for an experienced dyno tuner anytime in the near future.

[1FSTRK]

I think a dyno shop version of TTS would be a lot different than just the speed that tuning link gives. I may be wrong in that assumption, but add access to a few more advanced tuning needs and through in live tuning, sell it to dyno shops and you've got a winner. Nothing will take the place of a experienced pro, but the better his tools the better the end result.
I was just pointing out that dyno shops are purchasing addition shop software for tuning.

[FLTRI]

I think a dyno shop version of TTS would be a lot different than just the speed that tuning link gives. I may be wrong in that assumption, but add access to a few more advanced tuning needs and through in live tuning, sell it to dyno shops and you've got a winner. Nothing will take the place of a experienced pro, but the better his tools the better the end result.
I was just pointing out that dyno shops are purchasing addition shop software for tuning.

Bob

[TXP]

I don't disagree with that at all and I would like to see such a product made available..AND AFFORDABLE!!

[1FSTRK]

We all know the scramble to make a self tuning; everyman’s device will take precedent because of the large number of customers they reach. Both of the original reflash tuning devices really began to take off when they added software to help the owner tune with the use of the bikes O2 sensors. I wonder if the manufactures take into account the sales that come from the dyno shops and motor builders recommending their products purely because they offer more manual  features and are therefore more tunable once on the dyno. I switched both bikes over because my dyno shop said that once I got the bike the best I could that he could start from my base line saving time on the dyno to dial in the many settings that you need a dyno to adjust. This cooperative effort leads me to a better understanding of how my bike works as well as the complicated and important roll the dyno shop plays. It also led to many discussions on the “what if side”. I am convinced that so many of the addition controls discussed on this forum would be very useful when an experience builder or tuner is testing a new combination that may ultimately become the new seller in the market place. We have wondered how many times combinations  have been dismissed as bad because we could not monitor or adjust something going on behind the seen. I know on my first Delphi bike with a piggyback device we would get erratic results from WOT timing runs only to find out  later that the Delphi was pulling out timing that we could not see. I was sold on my builders fast tight chamber design needing less timing but that was not what the dyno was telling us. I temporarily gave up on bikes and went back to cars because they had more on the ball. The new trend to give more user control over the bike ECM is what brought me back. I know that not many set out to build for the edge of the envelope, compared to the numbers that just want a little more sound and power we don’t even show upon the chart. I also know that after testing and refining my last two bike combinations the shop went on to sell many copies of this design and everyone used the same tuning device that was used in the testing on my bike, every single one. I just feel that in a competitive market place just like in racing the one that stops trying to do what everyone else is doing and steps out of the box to go beyond the accepted limit will be the one to prevail. I’m working on my next big motor already and the builder says that if the new tuning device allows him to tune to meet the needs of the unique intake and cam timing events that I’ll be one happy camper, if not maybe back to cars again until they catch up.   

[FLTRI]

...in a competitive market place just like in racing the one that stops trying to do what everyone else is doing and steps out of the box to go beyond the accepted limit will be the one to prevail.

Hopefully those companies who provide these tuning systems listen to their customers and react. This produces a win-win for all involved.
Bob

[hotroadking]

JMO the system will have to be very logical from a user standpoint.

An engineers viewpoint on user access is generally poor, having designed
several ops systems for large companies, I can't tell you how many times the software engineer
would spend hours developing a page for say data entry, only to find out he felt his way was
the correct logical way to do something,  ..... only then to find out the data came in a different order
or method, and his "right way" doubled the errors and time.

You have to get in the trench with users, you have to look at how they see the information
and how they are using it (right or wrong) so you can develop the interface to reduce the
steps and errors....

Once we made him follow the data format we cut data entry time significantly....


I would think JMO that the average user is going to see the PCV mini screen as simple and easy to use
and the TTS/SEST as difficult based on the user interface,  or intimidating... 

I would like to see a way to capture data for TTS without having to haul a laptop around (like my TwinScan)  I don't see why the "dongle" or "Key" couldn't be modified to have enough memory to capture information and
transfer to the software vs having to haul my laptop and buy special cables etc....

Making it easier is the key, and I think they need to offer wide band sensors, or if not do the math and
complete the whole map based on known data, it makes it easier and eases the mind of the user.  think about it, the formula exists, so why have to sit there and complete 40 to 50 cells per map....

[Steve Cole]

So as features get added and parts get added to make these new features work how much are you (the customer)willing to spend for it all? Most anything can be added but it all has a cost and has to be paid for in the long run. What we have currently has kept the price down so it's the balance of how much to add at what cost the user is willing to pay. If the sales volume was like cell phones that would be great but it's not and it's never going to be so the cost is going to be paid by fewer people so the unit price goes up as things get added.

[hotroadking]

That wasn't just for TTS, its for any product I just think it's the way products will go.

You have to consider growth isn't in the home hot rodder alone, but
from the guys that want to  change the tune and run cooler

Buddy of mine went and popped on Xieds not for more power but
because his legs were roasting and he was tired of it... 

Big market in that, and to do that you have to offer a simple interface
for many users or they are just not going to get the product. 

Of the 4 guys using a tuner software all of them come to me
saying they like it but they are not going to mess with it....

It either gets done by me as much as possible, or to a dyno...

If the product is just a gateway to the ECM for a dyno tune
it has one value to an end user vs a full fledged tuning device.


The question is going to be, what is the developer willing to invest
to maintain or gain position in the market. 

[Steve Cole]

As a developer we always have to look at what people want and what people are willing to pay for the things they want. Let's face it, it all has to get paid for one way or the other. So each developer has to figure out a way to design build and support a product on what income it brings in or your not going to be around very long. Development doesn't end once a product ships and in the ECM tuning end of it you are always working on the code that the OEM's keep changing. This model year alone there has been 5 new ECM's and 3 new sets of code to work out along with required hardware changes to support it all. So the investment is high on the development side of things just to keep going without adding anything new to the products.

That said the new release of our software is in final check out. We had hoped to be done already but the end of the week is looking more like it. This new software update adds what some have asked for. The ability for Vtune to extend the data all the way to 100kPa. Now you have to collect enough data for it to be able to work but if you do, it will now extend it if you want it too. This only required us to update Mastertune, DataMaster and Vtune and then check it out on about 30 various models of ECM's and 10 sets of ECM code along with several Windows versions from Windows 98 to Windows 7!