What do we want in a Tuner ?

[mayor]

This new software update adds what some have asked for. The ability for Vtune to extend the data all the way to 100kPa. Now you have to collect enough data for it to be able to work but if you do, it will now extend it if you want it too.

ok, you peaked my interest.  the new software, can a current user pay to update what they have now? does it work for the '09 systems? 

[Steve Cole]

No a current user cannot pay for it, it's a free update that will be on the updater once released for all TTS prodcut owners. It works on all Delphi equipped HD bikes that run TTS closed loop.

[mayor]

so this will be a free update, that a current user can't even pay for?     great!   

[WVULTRA]

No a current user cannot pay for it, it's a free update that will be on the updater once released for all TTS prodcut owners. It works on all Delphi equipped HD bikes that run TTS closed loop.

Steve:  Is the update Tuning Guide available yet? 

Looking forward to the enhancements!

[rbabos]

As a developer we always have to look at what people want and what people are willing to pay for the things they want. Let's face it, it all has to get paid for one way or the other. So each developer has to figure out a way to design build and support a product on what income it brings in or your not going to be around very long. Development doesn't end once a product ships and in the ECM tuning end of it you are always working on the code that the OEM's keep changing. This model year alone there has been 5 new ECM's and 3 new sets of code to work out along with required hardware changes to support it all. So the investment is high on the development side of things just to keep going without adding anything new to the products.

That said the new release of our software is in final check out. We had hoped to be done already but the end of the week is looking more like it. This new software update adds what some have asked for. The ability for Vtune to extend the data all the way to 100kPa. Now you have to collect enough data for it to be able to work but if you do, it will now extend it if you want it too. This only required us to update Mastertune, DataMaster and Vtune and then check it out on about 30 various models of ECM's and 10 sets of ECM code along with several Windows versions from Windows 98 to Windows 7!

Win98. You are kidding, right? Looking forward to the updates.
Ron

[Steve Cole]

No a current user cannot pay for it, it's a free update that will be on the updater once released for all TTS prodcut owners. It works on all Delphi equipped HD bikes that run TTS closed loop.

Steve:  Is the update Tuning Guide available yet? 

Looking forward to the enhancements!

Have not even started writing the changes yet. It's pretty much the same operation as before. Once you have collected the data Vtune will ask you if you want it to auto extend the data. If you answer yes it will, No and its just like it is now. If you select Yes and there is not enough data at a given RPM point that RPM will not be extended. So just as before you have to collect the data to enable it to work properly, nothing we can do about that.

As for Windows 98, Yes our product runs on all versions from Windows 98 to Windows 7. This will be the last software version that is going to do that. The future things we are working on require a faster PC with more memory and newer software to be able to use the features.

[BVHOG]

As a developer we always have to look at what people want and what people are willing to pay for the things they want. Let's face it, it all has to get paid for one way or the other. So each developer has to figure out a way to design build and support a product on what income it brings in or your not going to be around very long. Development doesn't end once a product ships and in the ECM tuning end of it you are always working on the code that the OEM's keep changing. This model year alone there has been 5 new ECM's and 3 new sets of code to work out along with required hardware changes to support it all. So the investment is high on the development side of things just to keep going without adding anything new to the products.

That said the new release of our software is in final check out. We had hoped to be done already but the end of the week is looking more like it. This new software update adds what some have asked for. The ability for Vtune to extend the data all the way to 100kPa. Now you have to collect enough data for it to be able to work but if you do, it will now extend it if you want it too. This only required us to update Mastertune, DataMaster and Vtune and then check it out on about 30 various models of ECM's and 10 sets of ECM code along with several Windows versions from Windows 98 to Windows 7!

Interesting, on the present version we were led to believe that it was not a good idea to run these WOT areas at the very lean mixture required to V-tune, have you been able to get this done while keeping a reasonable afr target at wot?
As for your future changes I would suspect the ability to edit some tables real time. Am I close?
As for the cost of updates to stay competitive that is great for us as a consumer, every time a new tuner comes out with some added features it is a plus, that is as long as the price stays competitive. I realize it puts a pinch on the manufacturer but if not for competition one manufacturer would have a monopoly and charge accordingly.  If features are just being added for the sake of change or an apparent advantage the people that do this on a regular basis will see it for the fluff it is.
I also believe this is a very copy cat industry, the various tuners and cals are way to similar for it to be coincidence.

[TXP]

Will the 2011 softail CAN bus be part of the upcoming release, or is that a little further down the road?

[HogBag]

  One step ahead for TTS and two steps back for the rest

[Jeffd]

being I know nothing about these I am wondering why it is so hard to get the 80-100 kPa cells sorted.

[strokerjlk]

Bob the way I read it...it wont sample the areas above 80 kpa . it is just going to extrapolate those areas.
so it will use the same ve generator to guess for you.
thats ok i guess if you just want to pick a AFR to let it generate to. what most dont understand is when you move away from stage 1 . add cams,heads,compression,diff pipes, that work good. you cant just arbitrarily pick a AFR. diff combo's require diff fuel to make power and run right. a good set of heads require a diff AFR than a set that dont work as well. same as some cams specs compliment a good set of heads,while other make a so-so set work better.
then diff rpms with diff heads require diff AFR. when guys get away from thinking 12.5 or 13.2 makes the best power and find out what EACH indivual motor needs they will start to see there is no set AFR that ALL motors want.

[BVHOG]

Bob the way I read it...it wont sample the areas above 80 kpa . it is just going to extrapolate those areas.
so it will use the same ve generator to guess for you.
thats ok i guess if you just want to pick a AFR to let it generate to. what most dont understand is when you move away from stage 1 . add cams,heads,compression,diff pipes, that work good. you cant just arbitrarily pick a AFR. diff combo's require diff fuel to make power and run right. a good set of heads require a diff AFR than a set that dont work as well. same as some cams specs compliment a good set of heads,while other make a so-so set work better.
then diff rpms with diff heads require diff AFR.

when guys get away from thinking 12.5 or 13.2 makes the best power and find out what EACH indivual motor needs they will start to see there is no set AFR that ALL motors want.

And that is exactly why we still need dyno tuners.

[jluvs2ride]

How about the ability to mark cells as "Locked". So I can select all and increment or deincrement the values except for the "Locked" cells.

[burgies08ultra]

i have just been reading along here, but seems to me we never get above 50% throttle to get the ve's set.. i would think we need wot too??/ does the ecm know what wot ve's are by only setting them at less that 50% throttle??? or am i just missing something here?
burgie

[Heatwave3]

Bob the way I read it...it wont sample the areas above 80 kpa . it is just going to extrapolate those areas.
so it will use the same ve generator to guess for you.
thats ok i guess if you just want to pick a AFR to let it generate to. what most dont understand is when you move away from stage 1 . add cams,heads,compression,diff pipes, that work good. you cant just arbitrarily pick a AFR. diff combo's require diff fuel to make power and run right. a good set of heads require a diff AFR than a set that dont work as well. same as some cams specs compliment a good set of heads,while other make a so-so set work better.
then diff rpms with diff heads require diff AFR.

when guys get away from thinking 12.5 or 13.2 makes the best power and find out what EACH indivual motor needs they will start to see there is no set AFR that ALL motors want.

And that is exactly why we still need dyno tuners.

Help me understand what makes a motorcycle engine unique that it "needs" a dyno to be properly tuned? Boat engines, car engines, truck engines even airplane engines can be properly tuned to peak performance without a dyno. Is this need for a "dyno" to tune a bike's engine,  "induced" by the industry and "helped along" by crippled, closed loop ECUs as well as limited tuning software or is a motorcycle engine somehow unique compared to other engines?

[HogMike]

Help me understand what makes a motorcycle engine unique that it "needs" a dyno to be properly tuned? Boat engines, car engines, truck engines even airplane engines can be properly tuned to peak performance without a dyno. Is this need for a "dyno" to tune a bike's engine,  "induced" by the industry and "helped along" by crippled, closed loop ECUs as well as limited tuning software or is a motorcycle engine somehow unique compared to other engines?
[/quote]

Well, we don't really NEED a dyno do we?
I have ridden the bone stock bikes lately and they run just fine.
I just got back from a road trip in the M-B car and it runs just fine, no dyno tune, no tuner, etc. Any kind of gas any altitude. It does what it was designed to do. Yes, I can take the M-B to someone and have it's "performance enhanced", but, that's not my thing with that car. My hot rods have carburetors and run just fine with an "ear" tune. No dyno for those and no desire to get the last 2 HP out of them.
My bikes run just fine thank you, only the last two have seen a dyno and don't run any better than my older ones with an "ear" tune, that I can notice. The newer bikes are not as fast as my EVO, but, that's just a factor of more $$$$ into the EVO!
All the cars and bikes are "fun" to drive/ride, each has it's own personality. Some require a choke, some are F.I. Are we missing the "fun factor" chasing the last numbers on a dyno?
You racers out there, well, that's another story! I can understand why you want that last 2 HP!
Do we really need/want that for the street??
JMHO

[FLTRI]

Reminder: This thread is for input for what folks want to see in a tuner not to decide if a tuner is necessary.

Thanks for keeping this on topic,
Bob

[Jeffd]

Motorcycles are so much lighter then boats, cars or trucks.  You might not feel 10hp in a car but you do on a bike.  Do I win a prize?

[Steve Cole]

Well I need to make a correction to what I said on Windows support with this next release. This new version will only work on Window 2000 and newer. We finally had to drop support for Win 98 with this version. The updater will automatically take care of this for you if you have an older Windows system it just will not allow you to update. As for the debate of what extending the VE tables are going to do let first forget about what some people are trying to spread and deal with the facts.

When the HD system is operated at sea level the range that the any HD engine operates in is about 25 kPa to 100 kPa, at 6000 ft above sea level that range changes due to less barometric pressure to about 30 kPa to 83 kPa. The higher you go the smaller the operating range of the engine gets. So Vtune will correct, provided you collect enough data in all the area's from 26 kPa to 83 kPa directly to what you set the mixture to be within the systems operating range. The new versions will take that information and extend it to 100 kPa. You will be able to see what gets extended and what does not, right on the screen. You also have the ability to not use the extend feature if you like. If you do not collect enough data it will not extend.

The system calculates the required fuel delivery based on the air entering the engine, so once the MAP sensor hits it highest limit you can crank the throttle open as far as you like and it does not change, at that RPM. So looking at a VE table that is based on TPS if you hit 100 kPa at sea level at 25% TPS no more air is going to enter the motor at 30, 40, 60, 80 or 100% TPS. This is the way it works, no magic or anything else, so with this in mind if you are above 80 kPa and below 83 kPa at 20% TPS Vtune will calculate and correct directly into that location. Now what do you put into the rest of the locations from 25 - 100% TPS? Since we know that at 25% TPS the system has reached max limit would it not be the same VE value over and over again? The answer is YES and this is what the new feature is going to do for you automatically if you select it.

2011 Softail support is going to be down the road further. The Softail switches to CAN communications which requires a new interface and all new cables. We expect to have product in the March time frame. All new molds have had to be made to support the CAN product so it takes sometime to get everything made and approved then start production.

[brunothedog]

will v-tune compensate for the higher rpm of the revolution motors?

[Steve Cole]

Vtune works up until 6000 RPM, above that we feel the system is too slow reporting data and corrections out. We could allow it to run higher but in testing this is what we found so we stopped it there and do not recommend running a V-Rod above 6000 RPM in closed loop for this reason. At some point you reach the limits of the components and this is where we feel safe with the components on the HD bikes.

[FLTRI]

Vtune works up until 6000 RPM,...

What??!!! No closed loop tuning over 6000rpm??? How can an owner expect to get a good tune when the thing wont V-tune over 6k? 
Bob

[brunothedog]

this must be for air cooled bikes i presume then, the Revolution motor is at its best over 6000rpm
any suggestions?

[Steve Cole]

I understand that the V-rod is water cooled but that has nothing to do with the data rate the ECM sends the data out at and the rate that it updates the sensors. If we felt it was safe we would raise it as it's not that big of a deal for us to change the setting but that's not what testing showed us. Also most Vrod owners are not running those RPM during normal riding but most certainly do when hotrodding around. The motor runs well up to 9000 RPM stock and if you straighten out the valvetrain they run 11,000 just fine. You are going to have to use old fashion tuning methods above 6000 RPM.

[BVHOG]

I understand what you are saying about the throttle position after 100 KPA (assuming sea level or close) and it may not be that big of a difference but the throttle blade angle WILL affect the way the air enters the motor even at max KPA. Not enough to be a big difference but a difference in VE nonetheless.
So with your new addition to the software I am to assume that you still are not sampling all areas but simply extrapolating the data in each row out past where the bike hits the max KPA areas?
So to keep this on topic for what we want in a tuner it would be a great addtion to the TTS tuner if it had an analog box that gave feedback from two broadband sensors enabling  afr feedback to tune the older bikes and not need the conversion to 02 to do only 85% of the running conditions.
Dynojet now has it, Technoreasearch has the capability to input analog data as well.