resleeving cylinders?

[skyhook]

the man I'm doing pr for has a different take on big bore...he says that he resleeves with ductile iron...can take stock tc cylinders out to 4&1/8 and moco 4&1/16 cylinders to 4&1/4

I told him a lot of folks are skeptical of 4&1/4 these days (that they don't last long) and he says that reliability is good if the total package is set up correctly and not abused

I would like to hear opinions/experience about this type of resleeving

[Don D]

No out of the realm of possibility of course, done enough of them for cars. Would be a bit skeptical until some actual users report long term results. The purposely built bigger bore cylinders have more cooling fin area so I would be asking how that is mitigated.

[Admiral Akbar]

IMO,

Going much above 4 inch bore in stock cylinders is is cutting things real close.. Say you want 1/8 inch sleeve.. That means the hole for a 4 1/4 bore would be 4.5 inches.. That will put the sleeve in the cylinder stud holes.. After market cylinders use smaller holes. What kind of base gasket are you going to have.. Table spoon of 1104?  With sleeves I like to see a 0.030 to 0.060 lip at the top for locating the sleeve. What's he doing there? When done what is the final cost compared to say a pair of SnS?  You'll probably be limited to a 4 3/8 stroke unless you want run spacer blocks..

Ask him.

Where he gets the sleeves?

How thick they are?

How he keeps the sleeve from slipping?

Wiscoe has a 4 inch sleeve kit. Might bet 4.060 out of it.. Not sure I'd want to go any further.

Max

[Don D]

All good points.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

If the sleeve is "stepped" at the gasket surface,(requiring a counterbore during the boring operation, preparing for the sleeve) then the liner will not slip, as the cylinder head will hold it in place.

[Deye76]

"set up correctly and not abused"

Wonder what his definition of abused is? I would imagine motors that are built 4" + bore are run hard.

[KingofCubes]

We think in ideals but live in reality, not a good plan to big bore stock cylinder castings in my experience.

[skyhook]

I've sent an email asking for a full write-up...and I'll also ask him to come here and describe the process...I'm not very well versed on this forum's advertising policy, and I surely do not want to break any rules...so anyone, please tell me if this is kosher

[Admiral Akbar]

If the sleeve is "stepped" at the gasket surface,(requiring a counterbore during the boring operation, preparing for the sleeve) then the liner will not slip, as the cylinder head will hold it in place.

Scott,

That is what I was refering to here..
"With sleeves I like to see a 0.030 to 0.060 lip at the top for locating the sleeve."

It's another thing that adds to the diameter and can get into the stud holes but can be machined away where the studs are.. In the distant past used to do a lot of bore kits on jap bikes..

Max.

[Ultrashovel]

I would also question the heat transfer if the cylinders were sleeved. I don't mean from the fins to the outside atmosphere but rather between the sleeve and the remnants of the cylinder. IIRC, the OEM cast-in sleeves are ribbed to lock into the casting metal. The casting process also makes for perfect contact between the cast in sleeve and the outer alloy portion of the cylinder. Thus, the heat transfer is very good. In the Japanese motors, they dispense with the sleeve completely and use caramic-coated cylinder which work very well.

Also, are you seriously not going to run your 4-1/4" motor hard after it's finished? Otherwise, what's the point. Cylinders that large in stock crankcases don't have a lot holding them down when you're all finished. It would be OK for bar-hopping but for a long trip, uh-uh.

[wcgrinder]

First Please excuse my spelling I don't have a lot time but did want to pass on my experience with this topic.  I have been resleeving H.D. twin cam cylinders for 4 years now.Most of the jobs were for local riders.Cannot report on anything having over 15k miles.I been sleeving cylinders for 35 years now 2 strokes ect.I decided to experiment with a set of my own cylinders and a friends bike  100 CID ultra classic.(good!! Friend).What got me to that point was the brand X nickasil cylinders.I had sold a couple sets.One for a twin cam one for a evo.First problem.The first thing I did when I got the kit was to measure the bores (Before I ordered the cylinders I was assured they were prepaired using Torque plates)Sitting on the table the cylinders measured excellent. true and round top to bottom  within .0002 not bad.If that is what you want?Problem is torque plate boring and honing is done to remove the distortion that happens when the cylinder is squeezed between the case and the head.In a relaxed state with no torque plates installed the cylinders should be out of round!! not excellent. Most of the distortion around the studs at the top.With shovels and Ev's all you have to do is assemble the cylinders with the torque plates and hone them. The honing removes the distortion @ .0003 to .0008.When you remove the torque plates the cylinder reverts back to its deformed state.The twin cam is completely different bird. The cylinders distort so badly that  I have to bore and hone them with the torque plates installed I have measure up to .003 out of round right at the stud holes!.I contacted the company before installing the cylinders and was assured the they would be OK the the alloy and nickasil process accounted for my misconception about a true cylinder?   
Second Problem.The aluminum nickacil cylinders for a twin cam 88 to 98 in kit.Can be used without boring the cases. As a result the spigot that extends below the cylinder is only .060 thick I will go no thinner than .080 with ductile iron.After only a few short miles @300 the bike with the nickasil cylinders were back, smoking,excessive leak down and poor performance?Upon disassembling you could see were the spigot was grabbing the piston skirt and the debres were running up and down the cylinder scoring the bores as well a discoloration @ the stud bores.I put this one back to 95 in.Now I own a nice set of cylinders and pistons! I can't use.More to this story.
About the basics of sleeving cylinders.
Fit and finish have to be correct to tight and the sleeve will not fit.To loose it can move around and will not dissipate heat properly.In many automotive application's you can use a strait sleeve with no flange at the top because you do not bore all the way through so the lip at the bottom keeps the sleeve  from dropping out and head holds it down.On a cylinder like a twin you have to use a flange at the top of the sleeve to keep it in place.The Factory sleeves are cast in and are a integral part of the cylinder.Boring them out is a long process.And we can only go so far and the aluminum portion becomes to thin.I like to maintain @ .125 min. So I will not bore Tc 88 cylinder for sleeves that accept any bore size over 4.125.For touring of someone with limited tuning ability 4.080. I will use aftermarket cylinder Assys. for 4.250 because there are thicker walls thus more support.This is where got to use those nickasil cylinders.
The factory fins work fine.The problem is that we could have fins 3 feet in diameter.But If the bike is not moving (no air) all the fins in the world won't help.What works is a properly tuned injection system or carb with an adjustable ignition.
The piston design is also important with a ring pack that dissipates heat well but does not have to much friction,I use only double pass ring groves.I use an inboard pin boss to keep the piston weight as close to stock as possible.A
modified skit profile to min. rock. Al well as a stronger alloy to help work with the wide range of temps. that a air cooled motor works with.         
I will leave @ .0015 of the sleeve protruding above the the cylinder.As the aluminum heats up it expands at a greater rate than the iron (I use only ductile Iron) If the sleeve and the alum. are flush than the alum. trys to lift the gasket off the sleeve--blown head gasket.MlS head gaskets help a lot and may make this unnecessary. But I have better results doing it.
Skirt profile.Precision machining.piston fit types or material.cylinder finish.Rod length.Compression height All factor in to how long and well any engine will run not just a big bore.
There is a lot more to installing sleeves than the above but that covers my experences.

[Kleetus]

Crickets........

[Admiral Akbar]

Crickets........

?

Max

[skyhook]

we find that if we mash up a few crickets they make good adhesive to bond the sleeve to cyl

[choseneasy]

 I don't know what crickets meant but I thought that was an an awesome post from wcgrinder. Tons of good of info.  I know some manufacturers from old(remain nameless) used a poor process for sleeving that would actually drop the sleeve out when guys were getting them powder-coated.

[Kleetus]

Crickets is all we hear after someone adds a post (like the one from wcgrinder) with lots of really interesting information that will take hours for me to dissect before replying. During that quiet time all I hear in the night air is silence...and the sound of crickets.

Kleetus...

[FSG]

to dissect before replying ...

Would you not dissect a Cricket and digest a post  ?

[Admiral Akbar]

Crickets is all we hear after someone adds a post (like the one from wcgrinder) with lots of really interesting information that will take hours for me to dissect before replying. During that quiet time all I hear in the night air is silence...and the sound of crickets.

Kleetus...

Well, it sounds like the guy has both oars on the water.. but he's a little confusing...

"In a relaxed state with no torque plates installed the cylinders should be out of round!!"

I see em as round but maybe a little out at the ends without plates.. The 0.0015 trick is good.. I've done it.. Mainly on 2 strokes with copper headgaskets. I preferred to leave the sleeve up and clamp it lightly in a press while it cools then mill. The expansion rate on the lip compared to the same amount of cylinder ain't that much but that 0.0015 is good in case the sleeve decides to bed itself some..

I've run 0.040 thick spigot sleeves on small motors but only after seeing someone else do it first.. 

Personally I dont think the thin sleeve (spigot) was grabbing the piston.. More than likely the sleeve was too tight in the case and being distorted.. Those cylinders with 0.040 spigots many time ended up with almost 0 clearance at the spigot cuz when they were bored to that size. If under too much from boring they'd flex when you honed them You have 0.0015 at the base of the cylinder an almost 0 at the end of the spigot. Motors ran great.. Hundreds of them..

Still interest in what the sleeve thickness is..

BTW nothing wrong with sleeves when done right.. Good ductile iron is way better than the crap HD casts into their cylinders..

Max

[FSG]

In case I've missed it what is the affiliation between skyhook (Post) and wcgrinder (Reply10) ?

[Kleetus]

Doesn't Axtell make an all bore 114" kit with a 4" stroke? If so, is it an all aluminum cylinder with the ceramic or nikasil bore? How thick are the spigots in those?
Nikesel- nickle-seal, necca...However you say it.

Kleetus

[skyhook]

I am wcgrinder's apprentice

[Don D]

I enjoyed the read and have sleeved some Chevy ZL-1 blocks but no experience with bikes. So I am far from an expert SME and really would defer to others for that. But really from a practical view and marketing this sounds time consuming, labor intensive and a direct competitor to products already done well by others. Not saying it isn't feasable but when it's all said and done would you buy these over a set from Axtell, for example, and what would the price point be?
What is a double pass ring groove? Which manufacturers use them and which don't?
Keeping an open mind but I am reminded of Marty Mcfly playing Johnny Be Good, no put down just a bit of humor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYBGx8uKQLA&NR=1

[skyhook]

too funny don...and I get the point...maybe shouldn't show off so much?

[Don D]

My dad was a "thinker" He wanted to own a Honda dealership when the 600 was released and was scorned by the money lenders. He said "small cars with computers that control the engine are our future". Wish he was around today to see what happened. Later my buddy Dave Schector (of guitar fame) built a 69 El Camino out of tubing and GM body parts and in the dash was a big rectangular hole and I asked "what's that"? He answered, a place for the 286 PC to contol the motor.
So once again no limit or lid on creativity, innovation, or invention, that is what gets us ahead and learning.

[wcgrinder]

Crickets is all we hear after someone adds a post (like the one from wcgrinder) with lots of really interesting information that will take hours for me to dissect before replying. During that quiet time all I hear in the night air is silence...and the sound of crickets.

Kleetus...

Well, it sounds like the guy has both oars on the water.. but he's a little confusing...

"In a relaxed state with no torque plates installed the cylinders should be out of round!!"

I see em as round but maybe a little out at the ends without plates.. The 0.0015 trick is good.. I've done it.. Mainly on 2 strokes with copper headgaskets. I preferred to leave the sleeve up and clamp it lightly in a press while it cools then mill. The expansion rate on the lip compared to the same amount of cylinder ain't that much but that 0.0015 is good in case the sleeve decides to bed itself some..

I've run 0.040 thick spigot sleeves on small motors but only after seeing someone else do it first.. 

Personally I dont think the thin sleeve (spigot) was grabbing the piston.. More than likely the sleeve was too tight in the case and being distorted.. Those cylinders with 0.040 spigots many time ended up with almost 0 clearance at the spigot cuz when they were bored to that size. If under too much from boring they'd flex when you honed them You have 0.0015 at the base of the cylinder an almost 0 at the end of the spigot. Motors ran great.. Hundreds of them..

Still interest in what the sleeve thickness is..

BTW nothing wrong with sleeves when done right.. Good ductile iron is way better than the crap HD casts into their cylinders..

Max

I said distorted but it does not matter. Cylinders that are honed with torque plates will be distorted Or out of round if you like when free standing.
Good point about the cooling process. After installing the sleeve as the cylinder cools it trys to squeeze the sleeve up.I  do the Assembly work in the press and put pressure on the sleeve till the Assembly cools off.

With the brand x cylinders as with my own.There is same clearance between the cases and the spigot as with the stock cylinders.I will try to explain it like this.Take a thin piece of steel put it on a steel bench and beat it with a hammer in one spot, the sides will fold up around the center.As the piston reaches the bottom of the stroke it rocks in the bore normally no problem  A boundary layer of oil keeps the piston off the cylinder wall and the piston moves up.With the thin spigot as the piston  rocks (the  piston skirt now the hammer the spigot the metal strip)the spigot flexes and pulls the sides of the spigot around, compromises the oil layer and grabs the piston skirt.This only gets worse if the piston protrudes below the cylinder at bottom dead center.          
Sorry about the long winded message , but am not a professional writer just sharing experience.
I omitted some priortoratary materail.Such as specific dimensions.