exhaust and cam relationship

[Ed S]

Finally got to ck comp. Reads 165 frt. and rear. I assume ping is not compression. Gonna fatten it up a bunch. Question is will this 203 cam respond to this compression, or would a 21 be more suitable? Been thinking a lot about how and where I ride, mostly playing in the mountains, twisty roads, 2 up, just use the interstate to get there. The more I read and learn about these cams, the less faith I have in the 203. I can buy the 21's for a couple hundred bucks, just don't want to do it if I have to go a bunch deeper.

[Admiral Akbar]

"165 is right were it should be..."

For what? A stock motor?

Try cooler plugs, DTT amd set the quench if it still pings. Look for a loose heat shield first.. Max (lovin' the edit function)

[Faast Ed]

A freind of mine is running the same combo in his 04 RK and he does not have your same issues.  The only difference is that he has EFI (with a dealer flash - no custom tune).

95" Flat tops, stock heads and gaskets, Rinehart TD's, 203's.   Zero noticable ping.
EFI with "only" a dealer flash.

Seems your issues are with tuning that carb and/or ignition.

[Don D]

I assume you run premium >91 octane?
I also assume you route your breathers outside and don't have excessive oil entering the combustion process.

OK the compression is in the ballpark and even which says the motor health is OK and the cam timing is probably not too far off. Now if you have an extremely loose squish band it would ping even at this low compression (8.4 corrected). Carbon build-up same problem.

I suggest
Blueprint on the heads and CCs adjusted to 79cc, change to the late OEM seals
Switch to a DTT ignition box set at 3,3 on the dials to start
Jet the CV to 195, 46 pilot, and the NOKK needle, starting point
When the heads are off check and correct if needed the squish by shaving the barrels
use a Cometic .030 hg
Dyno tune the bike and change jets etc. and timing to optimize

Do what I suggest and the bike will feel totally differant and not ping. If you find a lot of carbon buildup you will need to address the oil consumption as well.

[mayor]

I suggest
Blueprint on the heads and CCs adjusted to 79cc, change to the late OEM seals

Don, 79cc and a cam that closes at 36 degrees (in a 95" with flat tops)?  I thought ping free was the objective.   

[Admiral Akbar]

I ran the numbers in the calculator for 203 cams 95" with stock 87cc heads & .052 head gasket with -1.5 for flat top pistons, looked like 165ish...what do you come up with for CCP?

Ain't arguin' with the calculations...   More the build....  

If it pings a lot should see it on the plugs...

With 165 ccp probably don't need an ignition module but I wouldn't rule it out..

"Ed get a base dyno run done, post the results B4 you start opening the wallet for parts..."

Well a base line run is what 50 bucks? ... Tuning more.. Pair of plugs (ra6hcs, 4163s), 195 main, washer under the needle, some sea foam is what 25 bucks??

Don is going a little overboard... but is listing a good build...

Max

[Faast Ed]

The bike I reffered to above was not blueprinted and had stock head gaskets. (nor colder plugs, not that they wouldn't help).

Tuning issues!

[Scramjet]

I had that same build.  It should not ping.  Mine never pinged from 700 feet altitude to 3,000 ft.  The compression should be somewhere around 9.2:1.  Something else must be wrong.  First check CCP for obviously mechanical issues.  Use the Excel compression calculator for reference.  Then check carb tuning.  Keep digging.

That setup should be a good low to mid cam and would be even better with .030 hg to bump the compression.  Obviously you can not bump the compression with your current ping issues.

That is not the hotest setup but if cash is tight it should work "as is" with a little investigative work.  With auto mech background you are better equipped than most to tackle this problem.

B

[mayor]

 First check CCP for obviously mechanical issues.  Use the Excel compression calculator for reference.  Then check carb tuning.  Keep digging.

That setup should be a good low to mid cam and would be even better with .030 hg to bump the compression.  Obviously you can not bump the compression with your current ping issues.

That is not the hotest setup but if cash is tight it should work "as is" with a little investigative work.  With auto mech background you are better equipped than most to tackle this problem.

B

Scram, ccp has already been checked.  See reply #26. 


Since CCP seems to be in line, I agree with those suggesting working on improving the tune.  Check intake manifold for leaks, next then work on main jet and shimming needle.  A manifold leak can cause both symtoms- ping (lean) and lazy.

If not a manifold leak- I would just jump to a 200 main and see if there's an improvement.  Leave the shim under the needle.  If there's an improvement in reduced roll on ping, add another washer.  If no improvement, try an ignition that retards timing.  An SE minus 5 should be plenty if you can find one cheap. 

[Don D]

05 you bring up a good point

The Two issues were late to come on and pinging

Logic
Get rid of the oil in the combustion chamber check and fix squish if need be (would not suspect that unless the squish exceeded .060), at this 8.3/1 corrected CR it should not ping even with stock ignition once again assuming 91 octane or better
If squish and oil are eliminated increase the compression
I addressed both issues and ended up with 9.7/1 9.1/1 corrected compression 187psi, end of the low end torque issue.
Have done several this way with stock heads at the dealer back in the day

Less invasive approach
If just the ping is the focus check the squish with solder and check the back side of the valves and chamber for oil and carbon.
Decarbonize with seafoam (change oil afterwords) and see if the problem goes away, this will confirm carbon uncover the "root cause" and allow proper repairs to proceed.

[Faast Ed]

I didn't see anything in his post that mentioned having very many miles on the build. It read to me as if he just had the build done and was dissapointed.
To me, this eliminates carbon as a suspect.  Anything is possible, just posting my observations.


Edit:  I suppose the builder could have screwed up the ring placement and oiling issues could be carboning up his bike.

[Don D]

Ed
You could be very right in which case decarbonizing would do nothing and looking at the valves would show nothing.
This is stinky and something is not right for it to ping
Would like to know more about octane, riding condition when it pings, and payload
All of this is just part of the diagnosis.

[Faast Ed]

You just overlapped my edit. 

It is like solving a puzzle. Fun!

[Ed S]

Actually it's got 16ooo mi. on it. Been pinging from day 1. Jetted it to 190 after the first trip to smokies. Washer under the needle after the next trip to ark. Spring and a tiny float level bump before trip to az. Had to ride it like a 2 stroke, "on the pipe all the time". Everyone around here kept telling me they never had to change a needle and the 190 is as big as they ever have to go. Parts changers. My fault for not doing my own research. Got a NOKK needle ordered and a 200 main in my hand. now just need it to stop raining or snowing when I'm not working. If that don't do it we're goin in. I'm almost always 2 up and nothing less than 91 octane.

[Faast Ed]

So how was your pinging when the build was first done?  Any better than it currently runs? 
You very well may have carbon issues!

[Don D]

OK now we are zeroing in, good questions
Keep in mind that overly rich mixture  (float or washer too thick) would build carbon too.
What happens if you take it out and whale on it through 3rd gear? Does it smoke? If it was carboned up it will.

[Ed S]

no smoke that i know of, nobody has ever mentioned it anyway. First noticed the ping with 700 mi on it in the smokies. Uses half quart in 3000 mi. Again, been told thats not excessive. Dont know. Could it be burning that much oil without smoke? didn't think so but beginning to not trust a lot of things I think I know.

[Don D]

I wasn't thinking about oil smoke but carbon build-up from fuel and black crud out the pipe. The oil consumption is not bad at all. How are the breathers routed? Get any oil out of the air box?

[Faast Ed]

My bike uses zero in longer intervals.    (Not enough to notice on the stick)

Do like Dewey said earlier, run some Seafoam through there. Do a thorough decarbon before doing anything else.
Changing jets to a carbon filled motor might just confuse things worse.

[Jeffd]

how much soot inside your pipes?

[Ed S]

Verry little soot in pipes, no black out the pipes, no oil from the air box, breathers outside. Been pinging from the beginning. Can't be carbon. Right?

[mayor]

I'd be worried about 1/2qt every 3k with only 16k miles.

Sounds like a good plan to clean out the carbon, but unless you change what's causing it (assuming that it's not from being rich)- your right back here again. Poorly sealed rings will also cause the engine to be flat....Could be a ring issue allowing excessive blow by.

I still say, check for intake manifold leaks while your playing with the other recommendations.  Take small steps, tearing the engine down should be a little latter on the list.  Try the 200 main, see what that does...

...'05's suggestion of a dyno run would help determine if afr was the culprit of if there's another pig in the pen.  Are you around St. Loius? I can think of at least two dyno shops in that area.  I think that one's even a member here.     

[Don D]

I'd be worried about 1/2qt every 3k with only 16k miles

Perhaps, more than most use but not enough for HD to even blink an eye. 

[Ed S]

05FLHTC- What you said about the members here. I have to thank every one for their time and effort. Gonna get a baseline dyno run and go from there. Got a feeling I'm not going to be happy till I go in, fix the squish, cut the heads, put in some 26's or 300's. You all know how it is with the most prized toy. Shoulda done it right the first time.

[metaliser]

Ed I had a 203 cam put in my 06 Electraglide before it left the dealership, had trouble with it pinging from the start, I had it dynoed several times at no cost to me, at least after the 1st one anyways, we finally had to pull some timing out to fix the problem, -2 degrees helped a bunch, I then went to 95" and had some minor head work done by BigBoyz,the reason I tore into the engine anyways was for a bad exhaust valve seal leaking oil, put the engine back together heads were 84cc's with a 30thous cometic gasket, KB flatops, after this it ran 82hp and 93.5 tq and had pinging, had to pull timing back out -2, and when you do pull timing out on the bottom like that you can tell it or at least I can, I just put in some gear drives and went with HQ 0034's, no pinging and they run better than the 203's, now don't get me wrong the 203's servered me well for 22,000 miles and the bike was strong but I wanted to get rid of those tensioners.
I guess to some it up I would install gear drive and put in 0034's or the 26's or maybe the crane 300 if it were me.