crankshafts

[sbcharlie]

we have a 09 soft tail in the shop that has a shifted crankshaft. bike has an extended warranty. the warranty rep. was here to go over the estimate to build the engine. he asked me if i thought the customer abuse the engine,to warrant a crankshaft replacement. i pointed to the corner of the shop, where there are 7 other shifted crankshafts.i told the rep. that i feel the factory abused the customers on selling a bike with defective crankshafts. lets think about twin cam engines and crankshafts. from 1999 -2003 the engines had no problems. it sad to see the shirts and ties, and the number crunchers, take the most important part of the engine and cheapen it up.these new cranks are joke. now the new ones do not even have a bushing in the top of the rod.i also think it interesting on the cam plate not having a bushing any more. but think about it, bushing or no bushing when a crank shifts it going to take out the camplate any way. welding a crankshaft is a FRANKENSTEIN FIX. it interesting that no one has built a billet steel cam plate with a needle bearing to see if that will assist in keeping a crankshaft from shifting. problem with billet steel plate, when crankshafts shifts it would break the crankcases. the other interesting thing is when you build one of these engines how do you warranty or stand behind your work. charlie

[aharp]

I'm not a crank expert or a physicist but I would think once the crank is true and the shafts are spinning on the same plane it would take a lot of stress off the welds. The bushing missing at the small end of the rod doesn't bother me as much as the one missing in the cam plate. But I do agree 100% that the MOCO makes changes to save money before they make changes for improvement. Being at a dealership I've seen the changes over the last 6-7 years. While the chassis designs, etc may have improved, they're nothing more than plastic snap-together bikes now. But damn, that new road glide ultra rides nice 

[ANNIEFATS]

we have a 09 soft tail in the shop that has a shifted crankshaft. bike has an extended warranty. the warranty rep. was here to go over the estimate to build the engine. he asked me if i thought the customer abuse the engine,to warrant a crankshaft replacement. i pointed to the corner of the shop, where there are 7 other shifted crankshafts.i told the rep. that i feel the factory abused the customers on selling a bike with defective crankshafts.

I would be interested to know how the rep reacted to your statement!
TIA
Todd

[Ridetard]

I would like to know why the 1999 thru 2003 had no problems.  What was different with these shafts?  Can they shift?
Amazed that Harley has continued production with this shaft since 2003.  Engineered obsolescence?

[02FYRFTR]

Automotive presses pins intop non bushed rods for quite some time now.  If H/D is pressing into rod Ok but if not then what happens if the pin diameter is worn smaller than diameter going thru the pistons.  if it can happen it will !!  Starting to accumulate a drawer full of cam plates from the parent metal era.  I guess i will start tooling up to install 660 bronze bushings for the cams like I did for the bushing less pinion shat bore.  Front cam bearing bore is worn out of round!!  Hydraulic tensioner not so spring loaded with oil cushion, cheap copy of a hydraulic lifter.

[kingvvk]

I bought a brand new 09 Streetglide. From day one it had in my opinion way too much vibration.
I took it back to the dealer and was told that it was normal and the new rubbermount system just has more vibes. I didn't believe it. At 1k miles I pulled the cam cover and measured .008 runout which is right in spec these days according to HD. Needless to say I sold that bike. I bought a 01 FXDWG and am keeping my 02 RKC. No more new Harleys for me. It is a shame that you have to be worried to grab a hand full of throttle or use compression to slow down with these new motors. There should never be a need to weld the crank of a street motor.

[Dennis The Menace]

As a matter of business, I would agree that MoCo will find ways to cut production costs so as not to end up with a bike that costs too much for most folks to afford to buy.  They also have to balance that with reliability of the part and components of the entire bike, including the motor.

That said they will build the bikes, including motors, to stand up to what they believe to be normal riding conditions and usage over some period of time.  As in any manaufactured product, they will not build it bullet proof or over engineer it.  It would cost too much.  Also, they assume a specific usage pattern in design, and if it holds up, then its good enough.  If not, they have warranty, or at worst, recall actions they will have to take on a part/component.

So, they have to build them to hold up to regular use, but not overbuild.  I think this can be difficult, since us riders have different ways in which we ride a bike.  I dont think todays HD's can hold up for every rider and style in which the bike may be ridden.  That is an accepted risk the MoCo is willing to take.

If a bike is used for racing, or is overloaded with weght beyond what it was designed for, or if we accidentally downshift too hard (engine brake) or lock up the motor accidentally, all these conditions can put undue stress on the crank and possible cause the problems that MoCo sees.

Obviously, this is not an epidemic, or all of us would have a crank problem.  Its a problem in certain conditions, which may or MAY NOT be our own riding style or beyond our control.  The MoCO understands this, and they accept that some problems are due to the rider, while some problems are due to a design that cant handle a particular riding situation (motor lockup in emergency braking, for example).

IMO, if they can PROVE the rider over stressed the motor and cause the crank shift, then the rider should pay. BUT, in many cases, I am sure its not a rideres fault and just points out a design issue that indicates there needs to be more safeguards to protect the crank, if possible.  How that is implemented, is not well understood by me.  Maybe a welded crank, or go back to forged, or ?

Anyway, my point is not to defend MoCo. It is only to get everyone to understand that these are not bullet proof motors and in some situations they will see failures.

Dennis

[kingvvk]

Dennis I agree with your statement but when the moco is building motors that have cranks that are leaving the factory with .008+ runout and they say that is perfectly fine I have to completely disagree. I still believe they should stick to there original tolerance spec of .003 runout. .012 is OK to them now. You can take manufacturing short cuts and get away with it if you keep tolerances within a resonable spec. .008 runout is way beyond a resonable spec.
The motor will beat itself to death. if these new cranks were kept below .003 runout you would see a whole lot less crank problems IMO. Slap them together and roll the dice is what got American car companies into trouble years ago.

[Deye76]

Let's be clear, no matter what crank was used in big twin motors, the motors have never been bullet proof, and those who have been loyal to H-D for years didn't expect them to be.  What I didn't expect, was for the motor co to adopt cost saving practices from the auto industry that work on a completely different engine design, and incorporate them in a design that is over a hundred years old.

[Big Dan]

"As a matter of business, I would agree that MoCo will find ways to cut production costs so as not to end up with a bike that costs too much for most folks to afford to buy.  They also have to balance that with reliability of the part and components of the entire bike, including the motor."

Dennis,
The thing is, is that many of these "cost-cutting" measures wouldn't drive the cost of the individual bikes up by an unbearable measure. Let's start with no bushings in the small end of the connecting rods for instance. Maybe they save 2 dollars a rod (arbitrary figure). I'm sure you, me, and everyone else would be glad to pay 4 more dollars for a new bike if it was that much more reliable, but the MoCo bean counters don't look at it like that. They look at saving that 4 dollars on each one of a million bikes as a savings of 4 million dollars, maximizing profits for the shareholders, and more big bonuses for the guys in the front offices. Exactly what many people profess to be "good business" and/or "very smart."

If you could pay a hundred dollars more (again, an arbitrary figure) for a new bike with a Timken bearing and the older, stronger crankshaft, I'm sure you'd do it in a minute. But to the bean counters, that's a hundred million dollar savings on a million bikes, and just like above, it's just "good business."

[Don D]

Look it costs no more to add a thou or 2 additional press fit and very minimally more to keep the runout to <.003. If they don't do that why should they even bother offering a full P&A SE book of parts to hop up the motors? They are just selling us work and problems in reality. A stock motor may survive normal use and not slip any wheels (usually) but add a Stage IV kit and get back to us how long the crank holds.
Timken well IMO the crank is the 90% fix, the Timken just a little added assurance of no issues, assuming the rest is right and the conversion is done in a way that corrects the line bore (not the Jims/SE kit).

[Jeffd]

I guess it is a good thing my new bike is under powered and had ETC LOL.

[ultraswede]

And still, considering all the above posts, we keep buying them (the HDs)

Lets get a GL1800 and be rid of all the terrible problems.............

[05FLHTC]

Many years ago I posted this very same issue after my 2005 POS crank "Potty mouth" the bed. I never do any hole shots or burnouts, I do IMO & IME lightly use the motor down shifting while coming to a stop, as I do with every stick shift I have owed & operated my entire life.

Many members here chastised me for posting my experience, suggesting I had built my motor & it must be due to my riding habits yadayadayada...stop trying to scare us 

Well here we are now, some 5~6yrs later. HD crying & moaning about the bottom dollar threatening local cities & the Unions that if they don't provide tax cuts & give up benefits that they will move there operations business production facilities out of the States.

I say "Potty mouth" these arsholes...enough is enough loyalty like everything else has it's limits. It's time for the scales of product demand vs availability & most important RELIABILITY to take it's natural course.

I will never buy another "new" HD ever again...how long can a business survive with the stock holders at priority 1 & the consumer at the bottom of the priority list...we'll see 

[Jeffd]

And still, considering all the above posts, we keep buying them (the HDs)

Lets get a GL1800 and be rid of all the terrible problems.............

Dude have not you checked out a GW board? them dang things over heat and the frames break LOL

I love tech sites but they sure point out every flaw (harley, bmw, kawasaki, honda etc).  I am amazed that when I go to Sturgis every year how that many harleys could be still on the road. I literally have not seen any broken down on the side of the road and I have seen 100,000's enduring 90* in grid lock traffic.

[rbabos]

Look it costs no more to add a thou or 2 additional press fit and very minimally more to keep the runout to <.003. If they don't do that why should they even bother offering a full P&A SE book of parts to hop up the motors? They are just selling us work and problems in reality. A stock motor may survive normal use and not slip any wheels (usually) but add a Stage IV kit and get back to us how long the crank holds.
Timken well IMO the crank is the 90% fix, the Timken just a little added assurance of no issues, assuming the rest is right and the conversion is done in a way that corrects the line bore (not the Jims/SE kit).

I agree completley with what you said. Lack of interference is the main culprit. Better still, increase the press and use a solid plug instead of a mini frost plug that offers no internal support for the increased press fit. It cost peanuts to improve the image that HD has acquired with these low qc cranks.
Ron

[Dennis The Menace]

Good points, gents.  I hope you didnt take my post as a position of sticking up for the MoCo.  Just presented a business side as it is a likely scenario they considered.  Maybe I am off my rocker, but I would ask a MoCo rep to straighten me out if I am wrong.  I have been on the business side of product creation, and just applied the same principles to MoCo's products.

Has anyone had an opportunity to discuss this or talk to a HD engineer?  Just curious how that conversation went.  I think it would be great if constructive dialog could be struck with them on this issue--it might help the bean counters see the flaw in their ways.  Warranty repairs cost MoCo, and maybe they havent truly done the math.  Or, maybe theyhave--again, I  do not know.

Maybe they save $10M on motor parts, and only have to pay out $5M on warranty repairs.  This kind of math is usually done on any/every  product.  If the warranty returns/repairs are less costly than the money saved, then.....well, you know how it goes.

Dennis

[shadylane]

I would like to know why the 1999 thru 2003 had no problems.  What was different with these shafts?  Can they shift?
Amazed that Harley has continued production with this shaft since 2003.  Engineered obsolescence?

I know of two "1999 thru 2003" that scissored their cranks. I'm sure there are many more.

[Don D]

Warranty repairs cost MoCo, and maybe they havent truly done the math

There is a lot more to the story than a financial equation. On the other side of each of those warranty cases is a customer. Some poor dude that has to take his bike to the dealer usually in the riding season and drop it there to be in the "Que" to be worked. Then hope and pray the solution is acceptable. In the case of the few that have a crank that exceeds .012 runout they get a crank back that is say .007. They ride off and it just doesn't seem too smooth....
So after all of that would this customer recomend a Harley to a new buyer? Would he buy another? Used to be this loyal brand name tail wagging that prevailed but today I think many have had a belly full. Some of those that want a true good performing bike are buying a low mile older bike and fixing them their way. Hope they don't get as blind as the AMF era.
Just saying.

[sportygordy]

So,, welding is not a sure fix, how do we fix a crank to pre-2006 specs today?? replace them with an S&E crank? Buy pre-2006 cranks? are they available?

just asken cause i dosent know 

[Don D]

Hoban is a respected crankshaft repair company. They weld, true, replace the pin with a slightly OS pin (more press) and install a plug. They guarantee what they sell. They also are very proud to offer brand new CVO and 96" cranks that have this rework and guarantee them. They also replace the rods with much more robust units.

[BVHOG]

The 2003 model year is mentioned as not being a problem?  I replaced 5 cranks last summer and two of them were 2003 models.

[barny7655]

Why is it , you get all other makes of bikes that are abused more than HD, yet never seem to have the problems HD have ,i mean the same occuring problems that have been with HD for yrs, cranks , vibrations , suspension wobbles,yes we know they are very primative engine but it is 2010,SBC has started this post, is he waiting for more replys before  another post, to inform us of what occured with the HD warrenty officer ,i think most of us know whats wrong with the engine of HD ,thats why there is a big industry on after market work  for them ,im just glad HDs dont fly ,  cheers Barny

[wfolarry]

And still, considering all the above posts, we keep buying them (the HDs)

Lets get a GL1800 and be rid of all the terrible problems.............

Dude have not you checked out a GW board? them dang things over heat and the frames break LOL

I love tech sites but they sure point out every flaw (harley, bmw, kawasaki, honda etc).  I am amazed that when I go to Sturgis every year how that many harleys could be still on the road. I literally have not seen any broken down on the side of the road and I have seen 100,000's enduring 90* in grid lock traffic.

The MOCO sees the same thing you do.

[04 SE Deuce]

  sbcharlie,  I concur that welding seems a bit of a "Frankenstein Fix."  I believe the guys out in the dessert have experimented with utilizing the cam plate as a crank support,  crank still shifts and does more damage.  I was curious about using the plate to add support is why I asked.
 
  As to how H-D does "Business" I got a close up view of that growing up in my parents H-D dealership.  Dad would see to it that the customer was treated right.....but getting the rep and the "mother" company to step up to warranty responsibilities was a monumental undertaking.  Just getting reimbursed for parts alone was impossible at times.  The sole reason my dad decided to terminate his association with H-D was because of the amount of warranty work required on new bikes and H-D's collective company attitude that showed little willingness to acknowledge their problems let alone have the aptitude to improve things.  It was never surprising for H-D to make a design change to something that had worked for years and create a problem. At that time H-D's % of market share for new bike sales was in the low single digits they were almost out of "Business" but hard headed as ever. They showed an idiotic film at new model intro. one year portraying two dealers as Brad Bright and Dizzy Dean, good dealer/bad dealer,  well Brad Bright would keep the oil puddles under the new bikes on the sales floor cleaned up.......simply brilliant!  Even without the bean counters H-D has limited capacity engineering to production.  Other than manufacturing a "modern version" of dated design/technology......not so tough,  and surviving on clever marketing.... selling nostalgia,  were has the MOCO shown their prowess in design or performance recently.  Lets see the revolution engine was Porsche designed, and the VR1000 that proceeded it had very dismal results in AMA road racing with top riders.  The drag racing kudos goes to  Byron Hines and co.  The DMG Daytona Sportbike Championship for Buell in 2009 was laughable as DMG allowed the Buell to run out of class as a 1100+cc watercooled twin (built by Rotax, Austrian) against 600cc 4's.  When they ran the Superbike class in 2010 (where they should have been) they had 1 good result in the rain.  There's always dirt track where over 20 years ago the AMA enforced weight penalties and intake restriction on other brands so that Harley could remain competitive with an air-cooled pushrod twin.  Dirt track racing became an almost all Harley sport,  until recently where other brands have been encouraged,  in an attempt to grow the sport and bring back its popularity.

  If a company is in the "business" of selling dated designs and embraces advancing technology with a rather backwards posture.  Then at least you should sell a quality product at a fair price.  Taking a press together crank that has proven to be marginal and making it cheaper,  slopping it together and then adjusting the tolerances up to match your poor workmanship is piss poor "business" IMO.  Putting out that kind of quality is about the same as a dog doing it's "business."  The argument/excuse that the crank is purpose build for a 65hp stock motorcycle doesn't have much merit when stock bikes have crank failures.  The fact that H-D sells performance products and is fully aware that Harleys are routinely modified, combined with 110" CVO stock offerings (lets not go there),  should warrant a decent crank and platform to build on without having to be overbuilt. Not all Harley riders want to ride a motorcycle than can be out performed by another brand with 1/3 the displacement. Other manufacturers can build 150+ rwhp. bikes (twins included) that see severe duty with no major issues. How many other brands have crank run out problems and failures like Harley. I agree with sbcharlie as to cheapening the most important part of an engine.  I think they are hurting themselves by selling a bike that informed buyers feel compelled to purchase an extended warranty plan for.  But then I'm not "Brad Bright."       Rick


This rant was inspired by sbcharlie's mention of  factory warranty rep......had one that needed a fork tube facial.   
 

Sorry I had to leave for a few hours 13 post since I started this may be a little dated now.