O2 sensors differences, pros and cons

[1FSTRK]

HV this is a sticky topic if ever there was one. If not by itself then maybe add to the
“Be Carefull with the new small heated 02s when installing new pipes”
and amend the title line to O2 warnings, differences, pros and cons.

Please post questions, answers, opinions, and relevant links to O2 sensors. I feel that we have already posted a ton of info and links in other threads that should be here. We can keep individual threads clean and to the point by just reference this thread if we feel the O2 characteristics come in to play. It would also make a quick easy place for a new comer to get up to speed as well as a quick reference for everyone else. Some good points are made and then dropped in other places because they begin to run off the subject of the original thread while other things have been stated 20 times. 
 
This is an important subject to be considered when picking a tuning device as it often will dictate the systems range of self tuning as well as a potential reliability or maintenance issue.

Does anyone know the average life in miles of a stock HD sensor?
Does anyone know the average life in miles of a LSU4 when used on a Harley?

Maybe we can gather some info here for a database.
We have a powerful tool in this forum let’s continue to improve it.

[ultraswede]

The usefull life of the stock o2 sensors is 30 000 km or 5 years, whichever occurs first.

Source;
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/roadbike/420f03046.pdf
page 2;
What does the term “useful life” mean?
EPA uses the term “useful life” to describe the period (usually years and/
or miles) over which the manufacturer must demonstrate the effectiveness
of the emission control system. The current useful life for motorcycles
with engines over 279cc is 5 years or 30,000 kilometers (about
18,640 miles), whichever first occurs.

If the actual useful life is longer I don't know, but it is a very short mandatory lifespan stipulated above.
It seems logical that the Mo-Co don't engineer anything to last longer than necessary, i.e 30 000 km.

[1FSTRK]

Thanks ultraswede

That brings up a thought. Because the factory doesn't install the other sensors trying to nail down an accurate number on how many miles they will last on the average Harley will be up to the public to log and post here unless someone has done actual endurance testing on harleys and can post it.

[FBRR]

The O2 sensors used in "cars" have to last longer than 30k. The big issue with all O2 sensor as they age is response time. The amount of time an O2 sensor switches from RICH to LEAN and LEAN to RICH changes over time. That "aging" time lag change must be taken into account when the emissions are developed. When I did those calibrations the way it was done is we had a "new" system of converters and O2 sensors, and also many sets of "AGED" hardware that had been aged to 150k miles. Emissions standards also are slightly different with miles. ( EPA allow some degradation with miles)
The emissions must still be met as the system ages.

What that means is the "lifespan" of an O2 sensor may not meet emissions requirements becasue of those changes in response times, but from a "PRACTICAL" pont of view, the aged sensor can still work for closed loop fuel control after even longer than the "stated lifespan." ( They may just not continue to be able to meet "emissions" requirement)

So as a caution, there is a difference between a O2 sensor "LIFE" where the O2 sensor no longer FUNCTIONS and the point where they simply no longer meet "emission standards." The OEM stated "life span" obviously is based on meeting emissions! Not absolute from a FUNCTION standpoint!
( I should add the O2 sensor "life" is a function of operating temperature. So one person that rides easy might get twice as much useful life from an O2 sensor as someone that rides HARD. Contamination is also a major "killer" of O2 sensors. Some things that can poision a sensor are "oiled air filters" that are over oiled as well as engines that have an "oil consumpsion"issue!)

[Steve Cole]

Here is a good link for as long as it last, you can however download and save a copy of it.

http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/downloads/Oxgen_Sensor__Cat_WEB.pdf

On pages D4 and D5 it shows how Bosch recommends to mount the O2 sensor and how to make the bung you mount it in. D4 also shows a drawing of proper placement in the pipe on the lower left side. You can also read about exceptions to there suggestions on D5. Then on page D8 - D11 is the section on the LSU 4.2 sensor.

All I can tell you is that we see a much higher failure rate reported back from the field on LSU sensors then we do on the stock OEM sensor. There does not seem to be a pattern on a specific combination that most the failures occur on and seems to be an even mix across different builds. We have seen these same type of failure rates in the automotive industry for a long time when trying to use this sensor (LSU) as a tuning sensor. In the automotive world these were being sold as the newest thing back 10 years ago. Since then most everyone has learned better. While it will get you close at a wider range than an OEM switching sensor it just doesn't hold up longer term. Many race teams have learned over the years to use them for tuning then remove them due to these failures or step up and buy a true Wide Band sensor system. The typical failure mode on a LSU sensor is to begin to drift away from a close reading to one that can be off as much as +/- 1.0 AFR then shortly after they have drifted that far they will completely die. So the big issue comes from the drift of the sensor feeding wrong information back to the ECM to correct from. Since the ECM does not know any better it begins making corrections to bad data.

Things that kill any O2 sensor range from too much heat, oil in the exhaust, improper placement and anything that allows lead into the fuel.

[1FSTRK]

Thanks to both FBRR and Steve for excellent info from both.

 

[1FSTRK]

I can see that because of the wideband sensor’s ability to correct from a larger range of error that at first glance it sounds like the good choice. Disregarding the replacement cost and frequency, which I would have to factor in after I see how long they last on each particular bike and the way I ride it, could I assume that a bike tuned in this fashion would show me a measurable fuel mileage change that could be used to alert me to have the sensors checked?

[Steve Cole]

The mileage is going to be set by whomever tuned it and how it gets ridden. The sensor has little to do with it other than correcting for changes down the road. So if they set you up rich 14 cruise and 12.5 WOT you can expect less mileage than if they set you up at 14.5 cruise and 13.2 WOT. This of coarse assumes that both tuneup's have done the spark correctly. All one can do is hope they notice any change after the tune and pay attention to those changes, to make a decision from.

[ultraswede]

could I assume that a bike tuned in this fashion would show me a measurable fuel mileage change that could be used to alert me to have the sensors checked?

I don't think so, a change of 1 AFR due to sensor drift could spell "melted pistons" if the motor drifts lean in a high performance application. In such a situation (hi- perf) you would propably not monitor MPG.

In a touring example relating to the above, riding at 90-100 mph a whole tank full,
what would happen if the AFR went from 14.5 to 15.5?......

[1FSTRK]

I think Steve may have misunderstood me, Ultra maybe on the right track.

My example assumes the bike has been running without issue and I am on a regular riding schedule. I always check my mileage after a fill up, it comes from years of iron sportsters with 2 gal tanks and only a speedometer between riding and walking. I'm riding along getting 45-47 mpg on a regular basis and suddenly it changes. This would tell me something is up and then I could check my sensors. I change out the bad one and go back to my previous mileage. Is this a reasonable scenario?
Now that I think of it wouldn't this be the same no matter which sensor is used?
I guess the questions would be:

When the sensor degrades to the point that it is a problem would it show up in carefully monitored gas mileage?

Is there a difference in the two sensors types in the amount of time between when the degradation becomes a problem and when it totally quits? “Will one linger on for a longer time before quitting?”

[Steve Cole]

The Delphi ECM has limits set in it to flag when the switching sensor it operating properly. So it will run in open loop as a default. Since it's range is much narrower (14.4- 16.8:1)than a wide band or broad band it works. Now let's go to a real Wide band, anything in the range of 4:1 to 25.5:1 is good so if you set a test up around that anywhere in between that is also good. Broad Band sensor (LSU 4) have a range of about 10.2 - 25.5:1 so anything with in that range has to be OK as well. 10.2:1 will kill mileage and possibly cause oil consumption, while 25.5:1 will melt parts as Ultra stated.

So the next question has to be can I limit the range I allow the system to adjust, yes it can be done, but then why have something that can read a larger range installed? Look there will always be Pro's and Cons to whatever gets done. You just have to pick one and live with it. IMHO the Con's on the Broad Bands keep me away from them.

[1FSTRK]

Back to the sensors themselves. With in their individual ranges in the accuracy of both sensors the same?

What is the useable range of each AFR wise?

[ultraswede]

I only know (a fraction ) of how the NB sensors operate.

This pretty much tells the story on the OE sensors;
From Bosch, inventors of the Lambda sond.


Extremely accurate over an extremely narrow AFR range.

Here is the data of a Wide band sensor:


Read more at :
http://www.bosch-lambdasonde.de/en/lambdasonde_funktion.htm

[1FSTRK]

Thanks

[Steve Cole]

When using Broad Band sensors from Bosch in order to get the accuracy they call out you must MEASURE and correct for temperature of the exhaust and pressure in the exhaust at the same time you take the reading from the sensors.

[FSG]

Here is a good link for as long as it last, you can however download and save a copy of it.

http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/downloads/Oxgen_Sensor__Cat_WEB.pdf

and if it doesn't last =>  2009-2010 Oxygen Sensor Cat

[1FSTRK]

When using Broad Band sensors from Bosch in order to get the accuracy they call out you must MEASURE and correct for temperature of the exhaust and pressure in the exhaust at the same time you take the reading from the sensors.

Do narrow bands take pressure and temp in to account?

[BVHOG]

A ton of info on this site regarding the broad band sensors  http://www.daytona-sensors.com/tech_wego.html

[Steve Cole]

The correction needed at or near Stoich is none. As you go further from stoich the errors/corrections get larger and larger. As such you do not have to worry about it with switching sensors.

[Jamie Long]

Both sensors have their place as very effective tuning tools. It all depends on your tuning requirements as well as the tuning product you are using. Both sensors can be effective when used for their intended applications, meaning not just by Bosch or NTK recommendations but by the companies and manufacturers that have tested and incorporated them into their end products. As for aftermarket tuning. as a whole you would have a tough time finding a modern air/fuel tuning device that uses a narrowband sensor (again aftermarket, non OEM), while there are many companies that offer wideband based equipment. When I was at SEMA in November I talked with over a dozen NEW companies now offering wideband tuning applications, this does not include the many already on the market, some of them coming on 10 years. It is also worth mentioning that Wideband sensors are being used more and more in OEM automotive applications, nearly every OE is now using them on core models like the Ford F150. We are seeying more uses and applications for these sensors adopted every day. As far as our experience, we have been tuning with wideband sensors on a Dynojet dyno since 2003 and have used them with a wide range of other products including Thundermax AT, Dynojet PC-V AT, and others and although we have seen some minor issues over the years we have seen very few actual sensor failures. We have sold literally thousands of these products that use the LSU sensor, we support them, we warranty them, and issues are far less than some would lead you to believe

[1FSTRK]

I can see that while using the broad band  in its outer limits to zero in on the tune that the temp and pressure offsets may come into play but in most Harley applications this would seem to be a very short amount of time while the map is being generated. It seems that once its operating in the narrow running range on the tuned map the temp and pressure should have little more effect than on a narrow band sensor.   

[revperf]

Great posts Jamie and FSTRK.

Brian

[TXP]

"When I was at SEMA in November I talked with over a dozen NEW companies now offering wideband tuning applications, this does not include the many already on the market, some of them coming on 10 years. It is also worth mentioning that Wideband sensors are being used more and more in OEM automotive applications, nearly every OE is now using them on core models like the Ford F150."

No doubt about OEM's using widebands in their systems. This has been the case for years. But on which OEM product, the F 150 or any other, is the LSU4.2 sensor used in a primary AFR command role? Correct me if I am misinformed on this, but as far as I know all the automotive OEM's who use this sensor use it in a backup role for emmissions purposes, not a primary AFR command role. What is the reason for this?

[strokerjlk]

Both sensors have their place as very effective tuning tools. It all depends on your tuning requirements as well as the tuning product you are using. Both sensors can be effective when used for their intended applications, meaning not just by Bosch or NTK recommendations but by the companies and manufacturers that have tested and incorporated them into their end products. As for aftermarket tuning. as a whole you would have a tough time finding a modern air/fuel tuning device that uses a narrowband sensor (again aftermarket, non OEM), while there are many companies that offer wideband based equipment. When I was at SEMA in November I talked with over a dozen NEW companies now offering wideband tuning applications, this does not include the many already on the market, some of them coming on 10 years. It is also worth mentioning that Wideband sensors are being used more and more in OEM automotive applications, nearly every OE is now using them on core models like the Ford F150. We are seeying more uses and applications for these sensors adopted every day. As far as our experience, we have been tuning with wideband sensors on a Dynojet dyno since 2003 and have used them with a wide range of other products including Thundermax AT, Dynojet PC-V AT, and others and although we have seen some minor issues over the years we have seen very few actual sensor failures. We have sold literally thousands of these products that use the LSU sensor, we support them, we warranty them, and issues are far less than some would lead you to believe

Jamie  good stuff

[Jamie Long]

No doubt about OEM's using widebands in their systems. This has been the case for years. But on which OEM product, the F 150 or any other, is the LSU4.2 sensor used in a primary AFR command role? Correct me if I am misinformed on this, but as far as I know all the automotive OEM's who use this sensor use it in a backup role for emmissions purposes, not a primary AFR command role. What is the reason for this?

Regardless if the sensors are WB or NB they are not used in a primary command role, as this is the function of the ECM/ECU. The sensors are used as a control function. The primary reason for using the wideband is for their ability to provide feedback over a broader range, this is useful not only for mixtures richer than stoich but also leaner in applications required. This would apply to emissions purposes as well

[Steve Cole]

"When I was at SEMA in November I talked with over a dozen NEW companies now offering wideband tuning applications, this does not include the many already on the market, some of them coming on 10 years. It is also worth mentioning that Wideband sensors are being used more and more in OEM automotive applications, nearly every OE is now using them on core models like the Ford F150."

No doubt about OEM's using widebands in their systems. This has been the case for years. But on which OEM product, the F 150 or any other, is the LSU4.2 sensor used in a primary AFR command role? Correct me if I am misinformed on this, but as far as I know all the automotive OEM's who use this sensor use it in a backup role for emmissions purposes, not a primary AFR command role. What is the reason for this?

This is the big deal that those who are pushing for the cheap Bosch Broad Band sensor not a real Wide Band on a HD keep trying to hide. The Broad Band sensor has been used for years in the OEM automotive world it was developed for them but NOT ONE uses it for primary fuel control! If it was so good every manufacture would dump the switching O2 sensors just for the cost savings alone let along all the electronics and wiring they could drop.

The Broad Band sensor from Bosch is used as a catalytic converter test device and that's it. They are positioned behind the catalytic converter to insure the converter is working properly. The OEM's use as many as 4 switching O2 sensors per vehicle for primary fuel control to meet emissions these days. Any aftermarket people who have to do quality testing and need repeatable results use a good Wide Band system, the cheap ones just do not hold up and are not accurate enough in today's world of testing.

While the cheap broad Band units have there place and we have them as well when it comes time to want to know what's really going on they are not used.

1FSTRK

The corrections on the switching sensors are near zero only because of the limited range of the switching sensor, when you switch to the Bosch Broad band sensor the correction to the output of the sensor over it's usable range are about 28% for fuel mixtures < lambda 1.0 alone and this is just the pressure correction! Then you still need to add in the correction for temperature. So in order to obtain an accurate and repeatable reading you really need to follow the specifications spelled out by the sensor manufacture, Bosch.

The following quotes are straight out of the Bosch specification sheet and as I stated you also need to correct for the temperature.

"Pressure dependency of the sensor signal

A pressure change of the measured gas gives a deviation of the sensor output signal of:
IP(p) = Ip(p0) * p/(k+p) * (k+p0)/p0
The factor k is depending on operation conditions “rich” or “lean” and is for the measuring gas from LSU test bench in section...."

"Sensor characteristic at low or high exhaust gas temperatures

Cold exhaust gas in addition to high gas velocity can lead to a reduced sensor ceramic temperature, when the heater control is not able to keep the constant ceramic temperature. This leads to a deviation of the sensor output signal.
Hot exhaust gas with a temperature above the operation temperature of the ceramic also leads to a deviation of the ceramic temperature and the sensor output signal.

Guide value: a temperature change of the sensor ceramic gives a deviation of the sensor output signal ΔIP/IP of approx. 6%..7% / 100K."


So why is it that none of the aftermarket suppliers of cheap AFR units can bother to do what the sensor manufacture says you have to to make it read properly? It's a real simple deal just add the temperature and pressure measurements and the sensor will operate as specified but until they do the readings you get are NOT going to be accurate and repeatable. The reason they do not do it is because when you add what's needed to get it right they can no longer make a cheap unit. If you use the sensor as specified by Bosch you can expect the results and tolerance they say but if you do not follow the necessary requirements it isn't going to happen!



Jamie

Sorry, but you are DEAD WRONG. The switching sensors are used for primary fuel control. The ECM commands the fuel but adjust/corrects that command from what the SWITCHING SENSORS tells it, that is primary fuel control. There is not one OEM application that uses a Broad Band sensor for this role. If the primary reason to use a broad band is to cover a wider range then why is it that NOT ONE OEM uses it that way?

[ultraswede]

In my car, there is;
broad band sensor, pressure sensor and an exhaust temp sensor..........coincidence..NOT.

[Jamie Long]

Steve, we were all waiting for that response
BTW if you re-read my post you will see that I stated the sensors are not in a primary "command" role, "The sensors are used as a control function"  As we both know the sensors are simply a 0-1V or 0-5V reference which does not command anything, it is how the ECM/ECU interprets/applies this that matters.

[Don D]

 
Here we go again the shootout at the O2 coral. LOL Just funning

[Jamie Long]

This is the big deal that those who are pushing for the cheap Bosch Broad Band sensor not a real Wide Band on a HD keep trying to hide. The Broad Band sensor has been used for years in the OEM automotive world it was developed for them but NOT ONE uses it for primary fuel control! If it was so good every manufacture would dump the switching O2 sensors just for the cost savings alone let along all the electronics and wiring they could drop.

The Broad Band sensor from Bosch is used as a catalytic converter test device and that's it. They are positioned behind the catalytic converter to insure the converter is working properly. The OEM's use as many as 4 switching O2 sensors per vehicle for primary fuel control to meet emissions these days. Any aftermarket people who have to do quality testing and need repeatable results use a good Wide Band system, the cheap ones just do not hold up and are not accurate enough in today's world of testing.

So why is it that none of the aftermarket suppliers of cheap AFR units can bother to do what the sensor manufacture says you have to to make it read properly? It's a real simple deal just add the temperature and pressure measurements and the sensor will operate as specified but until they do the readings you get are NOT going to be accurate and repeatable. The reason they do not do it is because when you add what's needed to get it right they can no longer make a cheap unit. If you use the sensor as specified by Bosch you can expect the results and tolerance they say but if you do not follow the necessary requirements it isn't going to happen!

Could it be that the manufacturers that use "cheap" LSU wideband sensors in their systems may have done the necessary R&D and developed products that incorporate Widebands that not only work properly but very accurately? I guess it is easier for you to say they are trying to hide something or continually state they do not work, all the while there is a wide range of companies/products out there with many happy tuners and end users. Who else is stating these shortcomings outside the Harley community? Are all of these other companies that are using LSU sensors producing products that do not work? We are talking about companies that are industry leaders

[Steve Cole]

Steve, we were all waiting for that response
BTW if you re-read my post you will see that I stated the sensors are not in a primary "command" role, "The sensors are used as a control function"  As we both know the sensors are simply a 0-1V or 0-5V reference which does not command anything, it is how the ECM/ECU interprets/applies this that matters.

So then why are you trying so hard to confuse the issue? Why not just step and state clear as a bell that the Bosch Broad Band sensor is not used in the fuel control role at all in any OEM vehicle. Instead you post

"Both sensors can be effective when used for their intended applications, meaning not just by Bosch or NTK recommendations but by the companies and manufacturers that have tested and incorporated them into their end products."

If you follow the rules as spelled out by the manufacture, I would agree but since they do not............

"As for aftermarket tuning. as a whole you would have a tough time finding a modern air/fuel tuning device that uses a narrowband sensor (again aftermarket, non OEM), while there are many companies that offer wideband based equipment."

Sure there a lot of people offering, still has nothing to do with doing it right, just cheap! Now why not finish the statement and tell people that there is a difference between Broad band and Wide band sensors and the equipment used to properly read them.

"It is also worth mentioning that Wideband sensors are being used more and more in OEM automotive applications, nearly every OE is now using them on core models like the Ford F150."

They have been doing that for over 10 years now, so it's nothing new. Why not just tell the truth and let people know they are used as catalytic converter test devices instead of trying to mislead people into thinking they might be used for fuel control! Bottom line is you are trying to play games with the truth about these sensors.

"Could it be that the manufacturers that use "cheap" LSU wideband sensors in their systems may have done the necessary R&D and developed products that incorporate Widebands that not only work properly but very accurately?"

You cannot do what the sensor is not capable of doing, so you can twist it anyway you like but the outcome is going to remain the same, no matter how hard you try to cover up the truth!

[BVHOG]

I happen to know that a short while back there was a member here who is a tuner(not stroker) that tested the cheap ass broad band sensors against test gas and the resulting readings were within less than one percent. It is entirely up to him if he would like to come forward but I know he personally has no stake in the sales of any tuning devices broad band or narrow band but rather did the test to ensure that his equipment was as accurate as possible. How bout it buddy? post up!!!
Like Jamie stated, many well respected industry leaders rely on the broad band sensors and have been having excellent results with their product.
For another example I had the chance last year to tour the S&S emmisons lab as part of a week of training there and they have a setup that is second to NONE.  When we did the two days on the dyno the company that had the means to use anything they wanted for emissions measurment a hop skip and jump across the street were using dual LM1 units with the cheap ass broad band sensors with the analog system wired into the dyno software. I feel if it's good enough for them then it's more than good enough for me.

[1FSTRK]

The Bosch broad band LSU sensors prices on line range from $48.98-$66.94
The Bosch 12028 narrow band sensors prices on line range from $11.92-$18.95

I do not know why the price of the sensors is constantly being brought up unless it is to repeatedly use the word “cheap” in a derogatory way in an attempt to discredit any one using them.

While the more expensive wide band sensors do exist, because no one uses them, they need not even be brought up

Technically correct or not, the people selling tuning devices that use broad band sensors are not the first or only ones referring to them as wide band and I personally do not believe it is done to miss lead as much as to describe the wider range that it will read

[FLTRI]

I happen to know that a short while back there was a member here who is a tuner(not stroker) that tested the cheap ass broad band sensors against test gas and the resulting readings were within less than one percent. It is entirely up to him if he would like to come forward but I know he personally has no stake in the sales of any tuning devices broad band or narrow band but rather did the test to ensure that his equipment was as accurate as possible. How bout it buddy? post up!!!

If you are referring to me, yes I did do a comparison which continues today as in the past, to assure accurate reading from the O2 sensor mounted in the Dynojet vacuum pump.
That said I have had plenty experience with LSU4 sensors as applied to tuning 2,4,6,8, and 10 cylinder race engines and can confidently report that these sensors are great for tuning on the dyno, but NOT reliable when continuing high heat and vibrations are applied constantly. This is why race engine builders never recommend running and relying on broadband sensors while racing.
Race teams would MUCH rather leave these sensors in while racing because they can more closely set AFR on the "ragged edge" of being "too lean" for best fuel mileage because better mileage require fewer stops to refuel....and that alone can, and has, won many races and championships!

It is for the above reason I feel very strongly that using broadband sensors mounted in the pipes for tuning, then removing them and running the engine in open loop is the best option for these HD bikes, for it is the harsh environment they need to located for "good" O2 sampling that will degrade them faster than when used downstream as with automotive applications.

HTH,
Bob

Bob

[Steve Cole]

The Bosch broad band LSU sensors prices on line range from $48.98-$66.94
The Bosch 12028 narrow band sensors prices on line range from $11.92-$18.95

I do not know why the price of the sensors is constantly being brought up unless it is to repeatedly use the word “cheap” in a derogatory way in an attempt to discredit any one using them.

While the more expensive wide band sensors do exist, because no one uses them, they need not even be brought up

Technically correct or not, the people selling tuning devices that use broad band sensors are not the first or only ones referring to them as wide band and I personally do not believe it is done to miss lead as much as to describe the wider range that it will read

I was the one that called them "cheap" and it was to try and break them out from the expensive real Wide Band sensor.

The truth is there are three types of these sensors and people have tried repeatedly to mix two of them together. The problem has come from the names put on them. In some Bosch documents they are called Wide Band and in other Bosch documents they are called Broad Band sensor. Do I think Bosch did it by mistake... no, marketing at it's finest. Everyone knows Switching or OEM sensor but everyone doesn't know there is a world of difference between a Broad Band and a real Wide Band sensor. With the Bosch documents calling the Broad Band sensor a Wide Band sensor it let's those selling them use the name of the much better sensor, so how is the consumer to know there is a real difference. If people would have stuck to Switching, Broad Band and Wide Band there would have been no confusion but that's not the way it is.

As for your statement that no one uses a real wide band that cannot be further from the truth when you come to the testing industry. I have worked in labs all across the county and a few in Europe and they all use real Wide Band sensors for testing purposes when the measurements need to be correct. I can tell you that HD, GM, Ford, Chrysler and most every OEM worldwide uses them, along with just about every professional racing and development firm out there. If you are trying to get repeatable and accurate results you use them.

Only the aftermarket industry has taken the Broad Band sensor to make inexpensive AFR units with them. The Broad Band sensors is much cheaper than a Wide Band sensor and it has to be for what it was designed to do. The Broad Band Sensor does not have the accuracy or range of a Wide Band sensor. The Broad Band sensor is built from the same base Technology as the OEM Switching Sensor.

If you use the Sensor as it was designed to be used it will do what the manufacture of the sensor says it will do. The specifications have to be followed to get the expected results. So if one was to control the pressure and control the temperature you would not have to correct the output.

[FLTRI]

Just a bit of technical info that gets in the way of opinion:
http://www.ecm-co.com/product.asp?5220#options
HTH,
Bob

[Jamie Long]

So does anyone have any experience and predictions for how long the broadband sensor functions properly in the HD application? Or is it just a crapshoot?

Or more directly to the point, if I buy the newest and bestest tuning system from another thread, should I consider doing a mileage-based sensor replacement or wait until it fails?

I would recommend contacting the manufacturer of the product you are intending on using. You will recieve firsthand information from the company that designed and tested the particular product as opposed to one of their competitors

[BVHOG]

I happen to know that a short while back there was a member here who is a tuner(not stroker) that tested the cheap ass broad band sensors against test gas and the resulting readings were within less than one percent. It is entirely up to him if he would like to come forward but I know he personally has no stake in the sales of any tuning devices broad band or narrow band but rather did the test to ensure that his equipment was as accurate as possible. How bout it buddy? post up!!!

If you are referring to me, yes I did do a comparison which continues today as in the past, to assure accurate reading from the O2 sensor mounted in the Dynojet vacuum pump.
That said I have had plenty experience with LSU4 sensors as applied to tuning 2,4,6,8, and 10 cylinder race engines and can confidently report that these sensors are great for tuning on the dyno, but NOT reliable when continuing high heat and vibrations are applied constantly. This is why race engine builders never recommend running and relying on broadband sensors while racing.
Race teams would MUCH rather leave these sensors in while racing because they can more closely set AFR on the "ragged edge" of being "too lean" for best fuel mileage because better mileage require fewer stops to refuel....and that alone can, and has, won many races and championships!

It is for the above reason I feel very strongly that using broadband sensors mounted in the pipes for tuning, then removing them and running the engine in open loop is the best option for these HD bikes, for it is the harsh environmet
nt they need to located for "good" O2 sampling that will degrade them faster than when used downstream as with automotive applications.

HTH,
Bob

Bob

Nope, not you. Someone else here.
From the above quote am I to read that you are taking the new closed loop bikes out of closed loop?

[TXP]

I too use the gas to monitor the accurracy of the LSU4.2 on my dyno regularly. When it drifts .4 to .5 off its base test number with the gas it is replaced on my dyno. Depending on usage and humidity levels I generally use 3 to 6 sensors per year. How many do you average Bob? Taking this into account, I wonder how long this sensor will actually be effective in an "autotune" application. The other thing to me is the 4.2 is purported to be accurrate to within 1 point. The NB switching sensor measures within 1 point. So by definition isn't the NB switching sensor going to provide more accurate feedback to the ECM? And isn't this the main reason OEM's use the switching sensor for fuel control information instead of the broadband which as stated, is typically used in a backup/check role? I have seen no real evidence that would lead me to believe otherwise.

[FLTRI]

From the above quote am I to read that you are taking the new closed loop bikes out of closed loop?

I was referring to aftermarket broadband sensored EFI systems NOT stock switching sensored EFI systems. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Why did the MOCO move the O2 sensors downstream on baggers Could it be the sensor housing heat issues created by radiant heating from the pipe right outside the port? Could it be a test for the future O2 sensors and locations for all other models...as we know the MOCO does when trying new systems and parts?
Bob

[FLTRI]

From the above quote am I to read that you are taking the new closed loop bikes out of closed loop?

...but NOT reliable when continuing high heat and vibrations are applied constantly. This is why race engine builders never recommend running and relying on broadband sensors while racing.
Race teams would MUCH rather leave these sensors in while racing because they can more closely set AFR on the "ragged edge" of being "too lean" for best fuel mileage because better mileage require fewer stops to refuel....and that alone can, and has, won many races and championships!
EDITED for addition, spelling, and proper English:
It is for the above reason I feel very strongly that using broadband sensors mounted in the pipes for AUTO-tuning systems work fine, then remove them and run the bike in open loop. IMO, this is the best option for these bikes, for it is the harsh environment they need to be located in for "good" O2 sampling that will degrade them faster than when used downstream as with automotive applications.

[Steve Cole]

For another example I had the chance last year to tour the S&S emmisons lab as part of a week of training there and they have a setup that is second to NONE.  When we did the two days on the dyno the company that had the means to use anything they wanted for emissions measurment a hop skip and jump across the street were using dual LM1 units with the cheap ass broad band sensors with the analog system wired into the dyno software. I feel if it's good enough for them then it's more than good enough for me.

So in the S&S Emissions lab where results have to be right there were NO LSU being used but where the results were not important they used Broad Bands. Seems to me thats a company using there heads and spending money  where it needs to be spent. This is the same reason we have them here to use. We know they are not accurate enough but they also cost 1/10th of the Wide Bands. Use the Broad band to get close then switch to the good ones for finish up.

[FLTRI]

A quote from ECM Company as mentioned in post #35 to help those who are interested:
"...with use, sensors can age and when this occurs, the calibration will no longer be accurate. To restore accuracy, the Lambda 5220 can be used to recalibrate the sensors and this new calibration will be stored in the same memory chip. Pressure compensation (P-COMPâ,,¢) improves accuracy at non-stoichiometric (i.e. λ ≠ 1) and non-atmospheric (i.e. P ≠ 101kPa) conditions. For example, a pressure increase of only 34 kPa can cause an error of 0.58 λ at λ = 3. The Lambda 5220 includes a pressure sensor that measures the exhaust gas pressure to avoid this error."
HTH,
Bob

[1FSTRK]

The Bosch broad band LSU sensors prices on line range from $48.98-$66.94
The Bosch 12028 narrow band sensors prices on line range from $11.92-$18.95

I do not know why the price of the sensors is constantly being brought up unless it is to repeatedly use the word “cheap” in a derogatory way in an attempt to discredit any one using them.

While the more expensive wide band sensors do exist, because no one uses them, they need not even be brought up
Technically correct or not, the people selling tuning devices that use broad band sensors are not the first or only ones referring to them as wide band and I personally do not believe it is done to miss lead as much as to describe the wider range that it will read

I am sorry that I was not clear in the original post above.

Does anyone know of any tuning system that uses wide band sensors permanently mounted on a Harley.
If not then they need not be brought into the conversation. I believe they are constantly brought in to cause further confusion.

[1FSTRK]

The Bosch broad band LSU sensors prices on line range from $48.98-$66.94
The Bosch 12028 narrow band sensors prices on line range from $11.92-$18.95

I do not know why the price of the sensors is constantly being brought up unless it is to repeatedly use the word “cheap” in a derogatory way in an attempt to discredit any one using them.

While the more expensive wide band sensors do exist, because no one uses them, they need not even be brought up

Technically correct or not, the people selling tuning devices that use broad band sensors are not the first or only ones referring to them as wide band and I personally do not believe it is done to miss lead as much as to describe the wider range that it will read

I was the one that called them "cheap" and it was to try and break them out from the expensive real Wide Band sensor.

The truth is there are three types of these sensors and people have tried repeatedly to mix two of them together. The problem has come from the names put on them. In some Bosch documents they are called Wide Band and in other Bosch documents they are called Broad Band sensor. Do I think Bosch did it by mistake... no, marketing at it's finest. Everyone knows Switching or OEM sensor but everyone doesn't know there is a world of difference between a Broad Band and a real Wide Band sensor. With the Bosch documents calling the Broad Band sensor a Wide Band sensor it let's those selling them use the name of the much better sensor, so how is the consumer to know there is a real difference. If people would have stuck to Switching, Broad Band and Wide Band there would have been no confusion but that's not the way it is.

As for your statement that no one uses a real wide band that cannot be further from the truth when you come to the testing industry. I have worked in labs all across the county and a few in Europe and they all use real Wide Band sensors for testing purposes when the measurements need to be correct. I can tell you that HD, GM, Ford, Chrysler and most every OEM worldwide uses them, along with just about every professional racing and development firm out there. If you are trying to get repeatable and accurate results you use them.

Only the aftermarket industry has taken the Broad Band sensor to make inexpensive AFR units with them. The Broad Band sensors is much cheaper than a Wide Band sensor and it has to be for what it was designed to do. The Broad Band Sensor does not have the accuracy or range of a Wide Band sensor. The Broad Band sensor is built from the same base Technology as the OEM Switching Sensor.

If you use the Sensor as it was designed to be used it will do what the manufacture of the sensor says it will do. The specifications have to be followed to get the expected results. So if one was to control the pressure and control the temperature you would not have to correct the output.

99.9% Of the sensors sold go to OEM or as direct replacement where the make,model and year of the vehicle is given. Are you really trying to tell me that Bosch was tring to fool the oem engineers?

[harleyguynv]

I have run an autotune tuner (with the wide/broad band sensors) on my 07 110 SE Ultra for over 25,000 miles without any problems. I also know of several others that have the same unit, one has over 40,000 miles, and none of them have ever had to replace a sensor.  I've read on the forums about dyno tuners replacing these sensors on their dynos. I would think the bikes would be harder on them. I have yet to run into anyone who has had to replace one on their bike. 

[wolf_59]

If you have a properly tuned engine with the fuel that you would normally be using that is within +/-.1 of the ECM/ECU commanded afr is there or would there be a need to run the broad band sensors over the narrow band sensors? 

[FLTRI]

I have run an autotune tuner (with the wide/broad band sensors) on my 07 110 SE Ultra for over 25,000 miles without any problems. I also know of several others that have the same unit, one has over 40,000 miles, and none of them have ever had to replace a sensor.  I've read on the forums about dyno tuners replacing these sensors on their dynos. I would think the bikes would be harder on them. I have yet to run into anyone who has had to replace one on their bike. 

As mentioned many times on this forum about broadband sensors, they do not just quit working, meaning the sensor output changes over time...as noted in ECM-co.com site I referred to and quoted from.
A close monitoring of fuel mileage can show a broadband degrading. Until total failure the rider prolly thinks his/her bike is still tuned to expected AFR results when it may be as much as 1-1.5 AFR off.
Bob

[FLTRI]

If you have a properly tuned engine with the fuel that you would normally be using that is within +/-.1 of the ECM/ECU commanded afr is there or would there be a need to run the broad band sensors over the narrow band sensors? 

The biggest misconception is the assumption the fuel going into the bike is what is expected. What that means is there is a huge variation in the fuels from stations. Age alone degrades fuel quality. The mix of additives vary as well and change with time, temperature, etc.
The biggest advantage for lambda (closed loop) operation is to compensate for the wide variety of fuel quality which includes octane.
Bob

[1FSTRK]

Here is a good link for as long as it last, you can however download and save a copy of it.

http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/downloads/Oxgen_Sensor__Cat_WEB.pdf

On pages D4 and D5 it shows how Bosch recommends to mount the O2 sensor and how to make the bung you mount it in. D4 also shows a drawing of proper placement in the pipe on the lower left side. You can also read about exceptions to there suggestions on D5. Then on page D8 - D11 is the section on the LSU 4.2 sensor.

All I can tell you is that we see a much higher failure rate reported back from the field on LSU sensors then we do on the stock OEM sensor. There does not seem to be a pattern on a specific combination that most the failures occur on and seems to be an even mix across different builds. We have seen these same type of failure rates in the automotive industry for a long time when trying to use this sensor (LSU) as a tuning sensor. In the automotive world these were being sold as the newest thing back 10 years ago. Since then most everyone has learned better. While it will get you close at a wider range than an OEM switching sensor it just doesn't hold up longer term. Many race teams have learned over the years to use them for tuning then remove them due to these failures or step up and buy a true Wide Band sensor system. The typical failure mode on a LSU sensor is to begin to drift away from a close reading to one that can be off as much as +/- 1.0 AFR then shortly after they have drifted that far they will completely die. So the big issue comes from the drift of the sensor feeding wrong information back to the ECM to correct from. Since the ECM does not know any better it begins making corrections to bad data.

Things that kill any O2 sensor range from too much heat, oil in the exhaust, improper placement and anything that allows lead into the fuel.

[Jamie Long]

It is most important to note that the % of error due to pressure is applied to the the sensor current NOT lambda.

Some info from Daytona Sensors on this......

"The Bosch LSU 4 wide-band sensor is affected by exhaust pressure as shown on the graph below. The error (%) applies to the oxygen pump cell current. Note that 1 bar corresponds to normal sea level atmospheric pressure. For most performance applications, excessive exhaust back pressure is not a concern and the resulting small error can be disregarded. At high elevations, the error is also relatively small. At 10,000 feet elevation (about .68 bar), AFR values near 13.0 will be shifted up approximately +0.15 AFR."

[TXP]

Isn't it interesting that the three biggest names in the Harley-Davidson tuning industry, the MoCo itself with SESPT, TTS with Mastertune, and now Dynojet Research with its new Powervision are all using the stock NB02 sensors for feedback instead of replacing them with the LSU4.2  Doesn't it stand to reason these three at least agree on which sensor works best in this application. No doubt that these companies could use any sensor set up they want,,,,I think they use the stock sensor based on better feedback and long term reliability,,,not just because "thats whats there". If the AT 100 was better, why would Dynojet make such an investment in Powervision?   

[whittlebeast]

My stock exhaust Sporty gets about 2 PSI average back pressure measured at the o2 sensor at 6000 RPM.

AW

[mayor]

Isn't it interesting that the three biggest names in the Harley-Davidson tuning industry, the MoCo itself with SESPT, TTS with Mastertune, and now Dynojet Research with its new Powervision are all using the stock NB02 sensors for feedback instead of replacing them with the LSU4.2  Doesn't it stand to reason these three at least agree on which sensor works best in this application. No doubt that these companies could use any sensor set up they want,,,,I think they use the stock sensor based on better feedback and long term reliability,,,not just because "thats whats there". If the AT 100 was better, why would Dynojet make such an investment in Powervision?   

I can't agree or disagree with your logic....but I will offer another possible alternative. It's possibly simply economics.  The factory o2 sensors are currently on a factory bike (hence the name factory), and the LSU4.2 sensors are $50 or more each retail.....so as a manufacturer, would you introduce a product that you knew you would have to have a retail price of at least $100 more to account for the sensors...or would you make do with what's already there?     not saying this is the case, but ...... consumers are generally price motivated. 

here's the thing I found interesting with a discusion on the board recently- Steve mentioned that the factory ECM have been wide band (or what ever we are supposed to call them) capable since 2005.  how should we read that? did an engineer at the factory consider that this might be an alternative to the current system?

[BVHOG]

For another example I had the chance last year to tour the S&S emmisons lab as part of a week of training there and they have a setup that is second to NONE.  When we did the two days on the dyno the company that had the means to use anything they wanted for emissions measurment a hop skip and jump across the street were using dual LM1 units with the cheap ass broad band sensors with the analog system wired into the dyno software. I feel if it's good enough for them then it's more than good enough for me.

So in the S&S Emissions lab where results have to be right there were NO LSU being used but where the results were not important they used Broad Bands. Seems to me thats a company using there heads and spending money  where it needs to be spent. This is the same reason we have them here to use. We know they are not accurate enough but they also cost 1/10th of the Wide Bands. Use the Broad band to get close then switch to the good ones for finish up.

They also use them (Broad Bands) in their VFI systems.

[strokerjlk]

Isn't it interesting that the three biggest names in the Harley-Davidson tuning industry, the MoCo itself with SESPT, TTS with Mastertune, and now Dynojet Research with its new Power Vision are all using the stock NB02 sensors for feedback instead of replacing them with the LSU4.2  Doesn't it stand to reason these three at least agree on which sensor works best in this application. No doubt that these companies could use any sensor set up they want,,,,I think they use the stock sensor based on better feedback and long term reliability,,,not just because "thats whats there". If the AT 100 was better, why would Dynojet make such an investment in Power Vision?   

well your right the MOCO is surely the biggest,they use narrow bands because they are cheap,and they only care about emissions. so the range they work in is fine for them.
dynojet research would hold a close second. and isnt the vision using both types of sensors

Auto Tune Basic which uses the nbO2 sensors to develop your tune, and Auto Tune Pro which uses the AT-100 module with dual Bosch Wideband sensors. 

TTS Mastertune is only as popular on a few forums. ( and we know why they use NB's.)
go out and talk to the majority of riders,on the street,rally, bike night etc. and see what they have,or have knowledge of as far as tuners.
num1 will be "racetuner"
num 2 will be power commander
num 3 will be V&H fuel pak.
9 out of 10 wont even know what your talking about when you mention TTS Mastertune.

as far as the cheap broad band and where it is used in automotive?
I have a cheap broad band in my cat on my pickup. 1996 198,000 miles. now I dont know what it does(it has started and runs flawless forever). the two bolts that hold it in place fell off about 30,000 miles ago, when I replaced the flange and nuts,I realized it was the cheap broadband in question here. (same as the ones I use on my dyno) so while I dont know exactly what it does or do I really care,as long as it runs right. what I find so humorous is ......if heat and vibration was so detrimental to these sensors,why is it still operating flawless after almost 200,000 miles.

[wolf_59]

If you have a properly tuned engine with the fuel that you would normally be using that is within +/-.1 of the ECM/ECU commanded afr is there or would there be a need to run the broad band sensors over the narrow band sensors? 

The biggest misconception is the assumption the fuel going into the bike is what is expected. What that means is there is a huge variation in the fuels from stations. Age alone degrades fuel quality. The mix of additives vary as well and change with time, temperature, etc.
The biggest advantage for lambda (closed loop) operation is to compensate for the wide variety of fuel quality which includes octane.
Bob

Agree and understand, but for the average Joe riding a 95" tw21 or 103" se 255 (closed loop) bike running average 91 octane 15% ethanol oxygenated fuel from his favorite high volume station with the above mentioned tune sets out on a cross country trip and somewhere along the way is forced by circumstance to get fuel from a different brand station that only sells 500 gals. a month what would be the chances that the narrow band sensors would not be able to compensate for the fuel

[1FSTRK]

I wonder if some companies chose to use the least expensive stock sensor on the market just to increase the profit they make on their tuning systems. After all most run in a competitive price range and some include two new more expensive broad band sensors, all the wiring, cables, and hardware.

[strokerjlk]

what would be the chances that the narrow band sensors would not be able to compensate for the fuel

what would be the chances they would? you ever test ride bone stock new harleys? the only ones I ever have that didnt ping were v rod and the XR 1200  sporster.

[Jamie Long]

Isn't it interesting that the three biggest names in the Harley-Davidson tuning industry, the MoCo itself with SESPT, TTS with Mastertune, and now Dynojet Research with its new Powervision are all using the stock NB02 sensors for feedback instead of replacing them with the LSU4.2  Doesn't it stand to reason these three at least agree on which sensor works best in this application. No doubt that these companies could use any sensor set up they want,,,,I think they use the stock sensor based on better feedback and long term reliability,,,not just because "thats whats there". If the AT 100 was better, why would Dynojet make such an investment in Powervision?   

The factory nb02 sensors work very well when used within their limitations. With the products you listed there are some very helpful tuning applications that have been developed that work very well, but in some applications there are simply shortcomings with the range the narrowband sensor samples in applications requiring a mixure other than near stoich, on the other hand nbO2 sensors work very well in applications where a near stoich mixture is required.

As you likely know you cannot simply replace the stock sensors with widebands as you need a WB controller and the proper control system in place. As for Dynojet, Power Vision actually uses the AT-100 with dual Bosch LSU sensors when you are using Auto Tune Pro, this will be their highest level tuning platform. While the stock sensors are very useful and very integrated into Power Vision, trust me no one at Dynojet is going to tell you narrowband sensors are more accurate or better than widebands

[BVHOG]

Let's all be honest here and admit if not for the EPA we would not have ever seen the 02 sensors used on these bikes, they have NOT produced a better running more desirable stock bike (heat complaints etc),they cost the moco money for the sensors, software, cal development and a more costly exhaust (cats). It's not about these sensors being some godsend for differing fuels or any other reason, they are there because the moco was forced to make changes to keep the traditional looking air cooled engine meet epa guidlines and still be attractive to the average consumer.

[BVHOG]

It is most important to note that the % of error due to pressure is applied to the the sensor current NOT lambda.

Some info from Daytona Sensors on this......

"The Bosch LSU 4 wide-band sensor is affected by exhaust pressure as shown on the graph below. The error (%) applies to the oxygen pump cell current. Note that 1 bar corresponds to normal sea level atmospheric pressure. For most performance applications, excessive exhaust back pressure is not a concern and the resulting small error can be disregarded. At high elevations, the error is also relatively small. At 10,000 feet elevation (about .68 bar), AFR values near 13.0 will be shifted up approximately +0.15 AFR."

I feel that for anyone reading this thread this post brings forth some very important information, in the past, we have been lead to believe by others that the percentage of change was a direct percentage of afr, from this info you can see that thinking was flawed, either on purpose to discredit the broadband sensors or simply not understanding the forumulas they were reading, I think Jamie's post makes it pretty easy to understand.

[Steve Cole]

Jamie

Why is it that that graph and statement does not match what Bosch says it will do? If I had to believe someone I think I will go with the manufacture of the sensor over someone else. I think that if people were to put a good pressure gauge on and monitor the HD exhaust pressure rise and fall you would be quiet surprised to see not only the total pressure but the highs and lows throughout the operating range. Average pressure is useless and as the build changes so does the pressure and temperature the exhaust operates in. You have to be able to read the exhaust pressure at the same rate as the sensor is read and this is typically once every 150 - 200 ms. The graph represents absolute pressure not just measured pressure. You need three readings to correct the sensor output, temperature, absolute pressure and the sensor reading and they must all be taken at the same time to make the corrections. Please show us where that is being done in the HD aftermarket. Also you left out the issue of drift in the Broad Band sensor. Since you like to look at the Daytona Sensors unit how come they provide a free air adjustment in there unit and provide the procedure to calibrate prior to using it each time?

http://wbo2.com/lsu/Y258K01005e03mar21eng.pdf


1FSTRK

Do I think that Bosch was playing games with the names................. you bet I do, why else did they change it! I'm sure marketing had more to do with the changing of the names than engineering did and an OEM engineer already knows what the sensor is to be used for and what it will and will not do by the provided specification sheet.

As for a HD application that uses a Wide Band there are none but as long as people confuse the two sensors they have to be separated so they are not confused, again the damn name issue. So the argument has been that the Broad Band is more accurate than the Switching sensor and that's just wrong. Yes, the Broad Band reads a wider range than the Switching sensor but it is not more accurate and in many of the aftermarket applications it is much worse. Switching sensors do not drift like the Broad Bands do, so if you think your running at 14.4 and the drift of the Broad Band makes it really run at 14.9  or 13.9 is that OK? Drift in a Broad Band is real, it happens and that is just why they have a daily calibration procedure for them. Only issue is that to do it they must be in free air. So are you willing to remove the sensors, check the calibration, reinstall the sensors then go for a ride. Should it be done once a day, once a week, once a month I really do not know for sure but the manufacture says before each test. I can tell you that we adjust ours once each day when they are being used and I can tell you we write down the adjustment each time and how far they move so we know when it's time to replace them, before they fail.

Look these Broad Band sensors are a good tool when used as they should be, they are not a great tool nor even a good tool when NOT used as they should be. They will measure a wider range than a Switching sensor just not as accurately as a Switching sensor will in its range. If you think the range that they will measure, the drift and accuracy are good enough then so be it.


Mayor

The reason the Wide Band input is in place is simple. During engine development and calibration we use REAL WIDE BANDS. In 2005 it was nice not to have to use different pieces of equipment to get at the data. We can use the ECM to do everything we want all in one place. Just so everyone knows HD uses the equipment from ecm-co.com with real wide bands during development. We can also tune real time too in the dyno cell. So what is in the ECM is a left over from the development side of things, no reason to remove the code for it, it was never put there to be used in the field or in production based bikes.


strokerjlk

"TTS Mastertune is only as popular on a few forums. ( and we know why they use NB's.)
go out and talk to the majority of riders,on the street,rally, bike night etc. and see what they have,or have knowledge of as far as tuners.
num1 will be "racetuner"
num 2 will be power commander
num 3 will be V&H fuel pak.
9 out of 10 wont even know what your talking about when you mention TTS Mastertune. "

What world are you living in?

Let's see Race Tuner is the older version of Mastertune sold through HD from 2002 - 2008 so that gets us a few sales, Dynojet must being doing so great with HD Power Commander sales that they are spending all that money to make a version of what Mastertune does right after they just spent a ton of money making the PV-V for a HD, and our sales for Mastertune just keep increasing year after year.

[strokerjlk]

Let's see Race Tuner is the older version of Mastertune sold through HD from 2002 - 2008 so that gets us a few sales, Dynojet must being doing so great with HD Power Commander sales that they are spending all that money to make a version of what Mastertune does right after they just spent a ton of money making the PV-V for a HD, and our sales for Mastertune just keep increasing year after year

I know all about the SERT, save the explanation.
the ham and eggers refer to "racetuner" as anything the MOCO sold. SERT SESPT. half dont even know the diff. point is the MOCO will always have the MOST units sold,and be the MOST popular.
number two is PC.
the world I am living in is ...talking to riders everyday. the majority of the ham and eggers always ask ,can you tune my bike? do I need a "Racetuner" or power commander. I have never had anyone ask me if I could tune there bike with a TTS or mastertune,other than Forum members.
Congratulations on your sales going up. now if it still had the SE badge on it then it would have major sales

[mayor]

go out and talk to the majority of riders,on the street,rally, bike night etc. and see what they have,or have knowledge of as far as tuners.
num1 will be "racetuner"
num 2 will be power commander
num 3 will be V&H fuel pak.
9 out of 10 wont even know what your talking about when you mention TTS Mastertune.

sorry, but the only thing this proves is who is getting the most from their marketing money.  with all due respect, I wouldn't make a purchase decision based on what the average fellow down the street at bike night thinks.   

hey Jim, my one local HD dealer not only sells TTS......but they recommend them over SEST.   wanna guess which dealer?    

[strokerjlk]

go out and talk to the majority of riders,on the street,rally, bike night etc. and see what they have,or have knowledge of as far as tuners.
num1 will be "racetuner"
num 2 will be power commander
num 3 will be V&H fuel pak.
9 out of 10 wont even know what your talking about when you mention TTS Mastertune.

sorry, but the only thing this proves is who is getting the most from their marketing money.  with all due respect, I wouldn't make a purchase decision based on what the average fellow down the street at bike night thinks.   

hey Jim, my one local HD dealer not only sells TTS......but they recommend them over SEST.   wanna guess which dealer?   

right wrong or indifferent. the fact is thats the majority of the Harley world.
I am not saying popularity means one is better. just dont agree on the previous top three ranking.
I wonder why  sells them LOL.at least they have a dyno. some of these dealers and indys are being told they dont even need one anymore to tune bike's .just take a class and ..have laptop will tune. 

[rbabos]

go out and talk to the majority of riders,on the street,rally, bike night etc. and see what they have,or have knowledge of as far as tuners.
num1 will be "racetuner"
num 2 will be power commander
num 3 will be V&H fuel pak.
9 out of 10 wont even know what your talking about when you mention TTS Mastertune.

sorry, but the only thing this proves is who is getting the most from their marketing money.  with all due respect, I wouldn't make a purchase decision based on what the average fellow down the street at bike night thinks.   

hey Jim, my one local HD dealer not only sells TTS......but they recommend them over SEST.   wanna guess which dealer?   

right wrong or indifferent. the fact is thats the majority of the Harley world.
I am not saying popularity means one is better. just dont agree on the previous top three ranking.
I wonder why  sells them LOL.at least they have a dyno. some of these dealers and indys are being told they dont even need one anymore to tune bike's .just take a class and ..have laptop will tune. 

Class, what class? Damn it, no wonder I had so much trouble.
Ron

[BVHOG]

Let's see Race Tuner is the older version of Mastertune sold through HD from 2002 - 2008 so that gets us a few sales, Dynojet must being doing so great with HD Power Commander sales that they are spending all that money to make a version of what Mastertune does right after they just spent a ton of money making the PV-V for a HD, and our sales for Mastertune just keep increasing year after year

I know all about the SERT, save the explanation.
the ham and eggers refer to "racetuner" as anything the MOCO sold. SERT SESPT. half dont even know the diff. point is the MOCO will always have the MOST units sold,and be the MOST popular.
number two is PC.
the world I am living in is ...talking to riders everyday. the majority of the ham and eggers always ask ,can you tune my bike? do I need a "Racetuner" or power commander. I have never had anyone ask me if I could tune there bike with a TTS or mastertune,other than Forum members.
Congratulations on your sales going up. now if it still had the SE badge on it then it would have major sales

What do you mean if? Ever hold one (TTS) up to the light and notice what's beneath the TTS sticker?

[Jamie Long]

More O2 sensor info directly from Bosch.........     

"Standard narrow band type Oxygen Sensors operate between 0 and 1 volts, and are only capable of accurately measuring a stoichiometric air/fuel ratio (e.g. 14.7:1). A richer or leaner condition results in an abrupt voltage change and is only useful for qualitative determination. Modern automobiles use "switch" like sensing at idle and part throttle to make small compensations in fuel delivery to keep the air/fuel ratio near 14.7:1"
Source: http://www.boschautoparts.com/OxygenSensors/Pages/PremiumOxygenSensors.aspx

"Bosch Wideband Air/Fuel ratio sensors utilize a more sophisticated sensing element that enables them to produce a precise output in proportion to the air/fuel ratio. As a result, a wideband A/F sensor measures exhaust gas oxygen accurately from as rich as 9.0:1 to as lean as free air. The use of the Wideband A/F sensors is growing rapidly as original equipment in vehicles and in high-performance specialty markets"[/i]
Source: http://www.boschautoparts.com/OxygenSensors/Pages/WidebandOxygenSensors.aspx


From Bosch Motorsports on their own MS3.1 Race Engine Management system which uses the "cheap" LSU 4.2 sensor........

"MS 3.1's control functions are state of the art and proven in GT 3 and Formula 3. Physically
based structure and ambient conditions corrections reduce the need for trackside tuning
during the event to a minimum. Closed loop Lambda control using the latest Bosch wide
band Lambda sensor is included"[/i]

Source: http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content/downloads/FIA_Formel3/F3Catalog_2008.pdf

While the LSU 4.2 may not deliver absolute perfect sampling under all conditions, the Delphi ECM itself in most cases is not capable of delivering a perfect mixture in all conditions. For a moment lets just think about the thousands and thousands using these sensors and all of the companies supporting them, if they are all using them outside of their limitations we better tell them because at the end of the day it all comes down to the fact there are guys all over the world using Wideband sensors to tune the hell out of anything they can make run with a spark plug and fuel. 

[FLTRI]

...what I find so humorous is ......if heat and vibration was so detrimental to these sensors,why is it still operating flawless after almost 200,000 miles.

Flawless? Ya sure? Do you know how much that sensor has degraded over the 200,000 miles, years, not to mention fuel additive package differences?

I'd replace it just for shits and giggles just to see if the mileage doesn't improve a bit.
Bob

[FLTRI]

Jamie,
"MS 3.1's control functions are state of the art and proven in GT 3 and Formula 3. Physically
based structure and ambient conditions corrections reduce the need for trackside tuning
during the event to a minimum. ..."

As I mentioned, they use the sensors to tune the system...then pull them for the race.
HTH,
Bob

[wolf_59]

what would be the chances that the narrow band sensors would not be able to compensate for the fuel

what would be the chances they would? you ever test ride bone stock new harleys? the only ones I ever have that didnt ping were v rod and the XR 1200  sporster.

Yes sir I have, but my question was " a properly tuned to within +/- .1 of commanded afr "

[1FSTRK]

So far this has been an informative discussion. It seems that both sensors are:
Good at the job they were designed to do.
Used by the OEM for years.
Proven reliable in OEM installations.

It seems to me that somewhere back at the beginning of my education on this subject I was misdirected. Early in the discussions in other threads it was repeatedly stated that the problem with any tuning system that uses broad band sensors is the sensors. They were portrayed as cheap, inaccurate, and unreliable. That is just not what I am seeing from the evidence here. It is unfortunate that this took place because it has added confusion, and wasted time.

It seems clear to me the attack on the broad band sensor was really a misdirected attack on with how these tuning systems are using the sensor. I do not know if it was felt that it would be better to find fault with a purchased component of the system rather than the systems design, at this point it really does not matter.

Without picking a side this comes down to one side having issue with the design of the other side’s product.

We could have gotten to this point a lot faster without all the confusion. The information here on the two sensors should be vital in deciding which type of tuning system we choose, but in the end we will be choosing between the systems and their designs and not the sensors themselves.

[strokerjlk]

what would be the chances that the narrow band sensors would not be able to compensate for the fuel

what would be the chances they would? you ever test ride bone stock new harleys? the only ones I ever have that didnt ping were v rod and the XR 1200  sporster.

Yes sir I have, but my question was " a properly tuned to within +/- .1 of commanded afr "

Agree and understand, but for the average Joe riding a 95" tw21 or 103" se 255 (closed loop) bike running average 91 octane 15% ethanol oxygenated fuel from his favorite high volume station with the above mentioned tune sets out on a cross country trip and somewhere along the way is forced by circumstance to get fuel from a different brand station that only sells 500 gals. a month what would be the chances that the narrow band sensors would not be able to compensate for the fuel

I dont know a % but not all could/do. it sounds nice ,and I wish it worked as good as it sounds,but in the real world of cross country cruising it dosent. and it is only getting worse

[Don D]

1FSTRK I like what you are saying and the logic.

I find there is more personal sanity in delegating. Let the professionals choose the tuning device, the guy that will tune my bike and trust he will provide the solution. Sensors, well if I have to carry a wrench and a sensor or two so be it. I would not want to be changing those like we did in the old days like spark plugs. That is not the case however with either of the sensors presented. Once again I follow the tuners lead there and make a tuning decision and trust the tuner to choose robust hardware that is maintainable.

I came to the realization a long time ago that I was the warranty agent for my bike and it is in essence a rolling boat. Any talk of fuel mileage in the context of saving money is a joke, same with a lot of the bantering related to cost. There is a way to get these bikes to run well without breaking the bank, but that said it was easier and less expensive 7-10 years ago. People have forgotten carbs for the most part and they were a picture of simplicity but for performance very reliable and could scale right up the line with performance changes. EFI is good too but the complexity opens a door to fewer achieving success with their performance goals. As time moves on I see this changing. The market will fill the need.

We can talk the intricacies of these products and the inner workings till the cows come home...but the bottom line is how do we modify the motorcycle for the improved throttle response, lower heat, and OEM or better longevity and reliability? If the product works as part of a system (this system involves people too not just parts like the tuner and head porter) to accomplish that goal then the guys I talk to every day are happy. The racing and dyno numbers guys are the minority. The stock bikes are hot and slow and sluggish from the factory, most just want punch (torque) and then get lulled into thinking they need 100tq by 2k rpm and 1.1+ hp / cu in.  Many get that and either say they didn't need that and then there are the few that want more, a personal desire for more probably exhibited in a lot of aspects of their life. JMHO

[Steve Cole]

So far this has been an informative discussion. It seems that both sensors are:
Good at the job they were designed to do.
Used by the OEM for years.
Proven reliable in OEM installations.

It seems to me that somewhere back at the beginning of my education on this subject I was misdirected. Early in the discussions in other threads it was repeatedly stated that the problem with any tuning system that uses broad band sensors is the sensors. They were portrayed as cheap, inaccurate, and unreliable. That is just not what I am seeing from the evidence here. It is unfortunate that this took place because it has added confusion, and wasted time.

It seems clear to me the attack on the broad band sensor was really a misdirected attack on with how these tuning systems are using the sensor. I do not know if it was felt that it would be better to find fault with a purchased component of the system rather than the systems design, at this point it really does not matter.

Without picking a side this comes down to one side having issue with the design of the other side’s product.

We could have gotten to this point a lot faster without all the confusion. The information here on the two sensors should be vital in deciding which type of tuning system we choose, but in the end we will be choosing between the systems and their designs and not the sensors themselves.

I do not believe for a minute there has been any attack on anything other than to make sure whichever sensor is used that it gets installed and used per the manufactures specifications, not the BS that floats around the device that uses it. Both sensors have there limits, so one needs to know what those limits are before they are being installed. Use the sensor and follow the limits the manufacture of the sensor places on it and it will work as they say it will. If you don't follow the limits and specifications placed by the manufacture of the sensor and your not going to get the results called out for by the manufacture.

It maybe that the consumer does not care, I do not know, but the hype that one does a better job over the other has been played by all sides. The problem is the facts and figures do not come out the way some want it too, The hype of your bike is going to run better, make better power and get better mileage because system "X" uses one sensor or the other is just pure  hype. To date I have not seen any aftermarket system for a HD that uses the Broad Band sensor as specified by Bosch properly, maybe if one did things might be different.

The one thing I can say is the life of the Broad Band sensor when installed in High Performance applications both in automotive and HD applications from what we and many others have seen, on average has not been very good.

[1FSTRK]

So far this has been an informative discussion. It seems that both sensors are:
Good at the job they were designed to do.
Used by the OEM for years.
Proven reliable in OEM installations.

It seems to me that somewhere back at the beginning of my education on this subject I was misdirected. Early in the discussions in other threads it was repeatedly stated that the problem with any tuning system that uses broad band sensors is the sensors. They were portrayed as cheap, inaccurate, and unreliable. That is just not what I am seeing from the evidence here. It is unfortunate that this took place because it has added confusion, and wasted time.

It seems clear to me the attack on the broad band sensor was really a misdirected attack on with how these tuning systems are using the sensor. I do not know if it was felt that it would be better to find fault with a purchased component of the system rather than the systems design, at this point it really does not matter.

Without picking a side this comes down to one side having issue with the design of the other side’s product.

We could have gotten to this point a lot faster without all the confusion. The information here on the two sensors should be vital in deciding which type of tuning system we choose, but in the end we will be choosing between the systems and their designs and not the sensors themselves.

I do not believe for a minute there has been any attack on anything other than to make sure whichever sensor is used that it gets installed and used per the manufactures specifications, not the BS that floats around the device that uses it. Both sensors have there limits, so one needs to know what those limits are before they are being installed. Use the sensor and follow the limits the manufacture of the sensor places on it and it will work as they say it will. If you don't follow the limits and specifications placed by the manufacture of the sensor and your not going to get the results called out for by the manufacture.

It maybe that the consumer does not care, I do not know, but the hype that one does a better job over the other has been played by all sides. The problem is the facts and figures do not come out the way some want it too, The hype of your bike is going to run better, make better power and get better mileage because system "X" uses one sensor or the other is just pure  hype. To date I have not seen any aftermarket system for a HD that uses the Broad Band sensor as specified by Bosch properly, maybe if one did things might be different.

The one thing I can say is the life of the Broad Band sensor when installed in High Performance applications both in automotive and HD applications from what we and many others have seen, on average has not been very good.

A much better explanation on by you than just saying their cheap over and over.

Does your product use the CBL calibration in the manor and purpose that the original manufacturing engineer designed it for?

[strokerjlk]

The hype of your bike is going to run better, make better power and get better mileage because system "X" uses one sensor or the other is just pure  hype.

relying on either one is a crap shoot. tune it and forget about using any of them to maintain accurate fuel control,mile after mile.
ole skool Baby!

[FLTRI]

relying on either one is a crap shoot. tune it and forget about using any of them to maintain accurate fuel control,mile after mile.
ole skool Baby!

We heard the same from ole skoolers when electronic ignition systems came out replacing the  points systems. Many indys were converting these new fangled ignitions systems right back to points as fast as they could.

Ole Skool demand spawned a market for these conversions...which seem to have disappeared.

It took about 10 years for these shops to stop replacing superior ignition systems with "ole skool" points and condensers with mechanical weights flying around...which often seized causing either full adv/ret all the time.

"Ole Skool" has its place...bobbers, choppers and cafe bikes, but not, IMO, late model production bikes, especially x-country touring bikes, that needs to run on the fuels we now have to contend with.

Since we do bone stock bikes for dealers in our area as well as 120" supercharged fire breathers, and all between, I get to see and tune just about every combination of builds available.
For some reason we do not have the same issues(s) with closed loop running (when properly chosen for best results) as some may claim.

I do not worry about closed loop systems replacing tuners, but they do offer a superior tuned product when understood and used accordingly.

Bob
PS - I have yet to hear from any poster the broadband sensor does not work properly WHEN
used as stipulated by the Bosch docs or as used in the Dynojet pump. But hear a lot by some who feel they know that using the sensors without proper temp/pressure compensation will not/can not provide reliable AFR readings.

[Steve Cole]

Does your product use the CBL calibration in the manor and purpose that the original manufacturing engineer designed it for?

I assume you meant CLB. Yes it does, but we do give you the tuner enough rope to hang yourself with.  Not only that but we provide the tuner with Graphs to show just exactly what you are doing when you change the CLB. We also give recommendations but it's up to the tuner to follow them or not. Our product is simply the most complete set of tools for adjusting the HD/Delphi ECM on the market, bar none. How the tools get used is not up to us.

If we felt that Broad Band sensors would be used properly or that real Wide Band sensors would be used we would have provided calibrations for them to be used. They have there own set of issues that have to be dealt with and I just do not see that happening anytime soon. The Broad Bands need a properly made controller, need to free air calibrate them and drift explained to the end user and the Wide Bands need the free air calibration explained on them. Once that's done the accuracy and life of what each will and will not need to be covered with the end user.

So as anyone can see it's just not as simple this one is the way to go.

[BVHOG]

We hear over and over about how these sensors are used nor not used as intended, as brought up in an earlier post, how can anyone view the voltage bias applied to the narrow band signal as using them as intended?  Or even worse, using them as some sort of tuning tool.

[Jamie Long]

Whether you are talking narrowband or wideband sensors if you use the guidelines from Bosch under the "General Installation Instructions and Requirements" even Harley is following these guidelines incorrectly as the OEM sensors are NOT positioned to the correct specifications in the factory exhaust systems on most models according to Bosch's definition. The OEM sensors are not positioned at a min of 10 degree upward angle, several models are not mounted in a downward pipe, they are not always mounted as close the exhaust port as possible (this is even called out on heated sensors), and the location on some of the rear O2 sensors and where they put them on some V Rod models just makes you scratch your head why they are mounted that way. Heck, Harley is not even using the correct O2 bung specifications that Bosch is calling for. Does this make them wrong and function incorrectly?

I think Bosch said it best that "In general, the sensor installation point must be tested
sufficiently by the customer for function and durability" and Harley did their fair share of R&D to make things work properly.

[hrdtail78]

http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/downloads/Section_A.pdf

page A11 starts with testing of the different types of sensors. 

1FSTRK,
I would also suggest looking into car forums on this topic.  Seems to be more info and more years of them being out to the end user.  Also less ax's to grind.

[Steve Cole]

You need to read the WHOLE specification just not part of it. Following only one part of it is no better than following none of it! Since HD controls the entire system they are able to follow the Bosch specifications and make changes from the suggest mounting recommendations as it is allowed for in the Bosch specification. The aftermarket cannot and does not have the same ability. Bosch clearly states the customer is responsible for testing in the final configuration and HD does just that. While I think there choice of mounting sucks it works as it should in a stock HD bike.

The aftermarket has no idea what combination of parts are being used let alone how the sensor is positioned and a big thing is no idea of the HEAT or PRESSURE limits. DynoJet with the pump kit only, made a remote pump and this makes the pressure a fixed item and the heat still a question. Every other kit has no idea what they are going to see on any given combination of parts let alone if the sensor is placed such that it gets a good reading, is in too high of pressure or is too hot or cold as specified by Bosch.

From http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/downloads/Section_A.pdf

pg A4


"Each individual LSU sensor is calibrated at the conclusion of the manufacturing process by laser altering this resistor value. Therefore removal or exchange of the oxygen sensor connector will render the sensor inoperable."

I cannot count how many aftermarket Broad Band kits I've seen that have removed this very connector!

[FLTRI]

...Or even worse, using them as some sort of tuning tool.

Since they are ultra accurate in the given range they were intended for AND the math in place to offset the voltage to increase fuel for cruise AND the target AFRs can be set to whatever we feel necessary for making power in the high load/rpm areas, it is the best of currently available worlds...IME.

IF the existing broadband closed loop systems properly corrected for housing temp and exhaust pressures I believe they would provide an even better tuning tool...but they do not.
As far as I know there are NO aftermarket closed loop systems on the market that meet the Bosch requirements for accurate readings. If there are post it up!
Bob

[FLTRI]

Mayor,
Most of the dealers with dynos highly recommend TTS over SEST simply because the TTS works as advertised and the SEST doesn't. However, if the dealer doesn't have to work with the SEST (dyno tune) they will sell it over anything else.
JME,
Bob

[strokerjlk]

We heard the same from ole skoolers when electronic ignition systems came out replacing the  points systems. Many indys were converting these new fangled ignitions systems right back to points as fast as they could.

Ole Skool demand spawned a market for these conversions...which seem to have disappeared.

It took about 10 years for these shops to stop replacing superior ignition systems with "ole skool" points and condensers with mechanical weights flying around...which often seized causing either full adv/ret all the time.

not even close to the same thing....but hey as long as you brought it up. i used my dual point Mallory until the new fangled got up to speed. took them about 5 years. lets see it has  been 5 years now since HD came out with this closed loop system to meet EPA standards.maybe another 5 and they will have a system that works as intended.

Since we do bone stock bikes for dealers in our area as well as 120" supercharged fire breathers, and all between, I get to see and tune just about every combination of builds available.
For some reason we do not have the same issues(s) with closed loop running (when properly chosen for best results) as some may claim.

sounds good....to bad I know diff.out of all those bikes it only takes one!
remember if in 200 miles the bike starts running worse than when it came in...you do have the same issues, admitting it is another story. 

[1FSTRK]

Has anyone out there used one of the aftermarket broad band tuning systems, and had the AFR's wander or sensors quit on your own personal bike?

Did you remove it and replace it with narrow band sensors and new tuner and fix your problem?

Did it operate as described in the beginning

How many miles did you get before the problems started?

[mayor]

Mayor,
Most of the dealers with dynos highly recommend TTS over SEST simply because the TTS works as advertised and the SEST doesn't. However, if the dealer doesn't have to work with the SEST (dyno tune) they will sell it over anything else.

yea, the other interesting thing for me to note is my local dealer that sells TTS.....charges less to tune with it than SEST.     ....although, that could be based on how comfortable the tuners are using TTS since they have probably had much more training with TTS than SEST. 

To support what Jim said earlier though-  I think of the 4 dealers with dyno's with in 90 miles from my house, there's only the one who has heard of, let alone used, TTS....and that's the above mentioned one.   

[harleyguynv]

Has anyone out there used one of the aftermarket broad band tuning systems, and had the AFR's wander or sensors quit on your own personal bike?

Did you remove it and replace it with narrow band sensors and new tuner and fix your problem?

Did it operate as described in the beginning

How many miles did you get before the problems started?

Like I posted earlier I have a PC5 with Autotune and have had no problems in over 20,000 miles. I have had my bike checked a couple times on a dyno and the dyno operators were very surprised at the results. It was right on with their dyno. I check my trims virtually every time I get done riding and have never seen any drift.

[hrdtail78]

Has anyone out there used one of the aftermarket broad band tuning systems, and had the AFR's wander or sensors quit on your own personal bike?

Did you remove it and replace it with narrow band sensors and new tuner and fix your problem?

Did it operate as described in the beginning

How many miles did you get before the problems started?

Like every other tuner that has posted in this thread I have seen them drift on my Dyno.  I consider this a broad band tuning system.  One flat out and quit, no.

[FLTRI]

...I check my trims virtually every time I get done riding and have never seen any drift.

Do you mean there are no changes to the trim numbers when you check after a ride?
Bob

[harleyguynv]

...I check my trims virtually every time I get done riding and have never seen any drift.

Do you mean there are no changes to the trim numbers when you check after a ride?
Bob

Yes, I would assume if the sensors were drifting the controller would try to adjust the numbers to keep the afr in line. After reading negative comments on some of the boards about these sensors I decided to get them checked with a dyno. I used two different dyno operators at different times. I explained to them what I was doing and they were happy to check it out for me for a min. charge. They were as curious as I was about how accurate the auto tuner would be. The others I know and have talked to with these sensors have had no problems either. I read the boards on this subject and only hear negative feedback on the wide/broadband sensors from the same few guys. Nobody ever tried to mislead me when I bought the system. I looked at ALL of the tuning devices that were available at the time and decided to go with the one I have. As an end user I am very happy with what I have.

[FLTRI]

So are you assuming your closed loop system is constantly correcting (trimming) for changes in climate and altitude?
Shouldn'y there always be minor changes to trims each time the bike is ridden?
Bob

[harleyguynv]

So are you assuming your closed loop system is constantly correcting (trimming) for changes in climate and altitude?
Shouldn't there always be minor changes to trims each time the bike is ridden?
Bob

Yes, there are minor changes in the cells. I notice that when there are changes they are consistant between the front and rear. I would assume if there was a problem with one of the sensors, the cylinder in question would be trimmed noticeably different than the other.

[FLTRI]

...Yes, there are minor changes in the cells. I notice that when there are changes they are consistant between the front and rear. I would assume if there was a problem with one of the sensors, the cylinder in question would be trimmed noticeably different than the other.

Thanks now I understand. It sounded like the system way not making any changes.

I check my trims virtually every time I get done riding and have never seen any drift.

Sounds like you are doing exactly what needs to be done...constant monitoring the drift.
Trust me, you WILL see drift as the sensors age. It is the design. We tuners see it all the time especially when we've installed them into pipes with bungs and tune. Then replace them with the original O2 sensors.
I gave up on that a long time ago...once I realized the sensor life was diminished compared to the dyno's exhaust pump.
Hoping this is taken in the spirit in which it was intended,
Bob

[strokerjlk]

Mayor,
Most of the dealers with dynos highly recommend TTS over SEST simply because the TTS works as advertised and the SEST doesn't. However, if the dealer doesn't have to work with the SEST (dyno tune) they will sell it over anything else.

yea, the other interesting thing for me to note is my local dealer that sells TTS.....charges less to tune with it than SEST.     ....although, that could be based on how comfortable the tuners are using TTS since they have probably had much more training with TTS than SEST. 

To support what Jim said earlier though-  I think of the 4 dealers with dyno's with in 90 miles from my house, there's only the one who has heard of, let alone used, TTS....and that's the above mentioned one.   

yes tuners like to work with what they are comfortable with.
I imagine you are correct on your reasoning why the one dealer uses them more than SESPT. although there is probably a couple other reasons as well
it has got nothing to do with one working better or as advertised. if a tuner cant get the same results from either one ,it is the tuners fault not the device.

[FLTRI]

...if a tuner cant get the same results from either one ,it is the tuners fault not the device.

Since you disable closed loop operation you probably wouldn't notice any difference.
Bob

[1FSTRK]

I set up a nice spreed sheet to keep track of all the people that post a reply to my questions about when and why they removed their broad band tuners. I will post the results as they come in. Just to update you.
In 4 days this thread had over 750 views, over 90 posts with many tails of how bad broad band sensors are and in the 24 hours after I posted my question exactly 0 members have posted that they have had one on their personal bike and took it off because of reasons listed here.
Now if you think we won't post about buying something that turns out to be bad, just look at the threads on stock cranks and SE comp sprockets. If something is a true problem you will read it here first hand from the members that wasted money on it.
I"ll check daily and update my sheet

[strokerjlk]

I set up a nice spreed sheet to keep track of all the people that post a reply to my questions about when and why they removed their broad band tuners. I will post the results as they come in. Just to update you.
In 4 days this thread had over 750 views, over 90 posts with many tails of how bad broad band sensors are and in the 24 hours after I posted my question exactly 0 members have posted that they have had one on their personal bike and took it off because of reasons listed here.
Now if you think we won't post about buying something that turns out to be bad, just look at the threads on stock cranks and SE comp sprockets. If something is a true problem you will read it here first hand from the members that wasted money on it.
I"ll check daily and update my sheet

[Rider57]

After more than 22 years with EPA, I have learned that all the testing we have done using CODA software has been with wideband sensors. They function as stated when all the operating enviromental standards have been met.
Steve Cole is correct in the "naming" issues. I can remember talks the both the engineers with the marketing execs close by.
I you ever had to take part in a hearing for an Executive Order to be issued you would see what goes on.
We have been using them for testing in the Horiba systems with SuperFlow Dynes for years.
Can the MOCO use them? Yes, anyone can! They just have to engineer the system to use them. But we as rider and tinkers like to adjust things for or riding style and the mpg.

LSU's? I have used them and they worked and after a short while, I went and bought some more. They fail. NB's fail!
MTBF is close to 14k for H.D.'s some fail in as little as 6k.
Go figure.

[hrdtail78]

I guess I don't count. Why don't you ask this and hopefully get an answer from people like Jim, Jamie, bvhog, and even Bob. How often do you replace the broadband sensors on your dyno?  You have asked this before. No one answered you besides me. Jim has a truck running on the same sensor for 200,000 miles. Great. Is the sensors on his dyno that old?  No. Ask the question. That is one of the question I would ask if I was dropping my bike off to be dyno tuned.   Ask the same question to the guy that does your cars.

I don't run broadbands on my personnel bike. I own a dyno. Maybe a question of: who own a dyno and what do you run, should factor into the spreadsheet.

Bikenights? Really?  I was at hooters the otherday and my waitress was telling me about the turbolater I can put in my S&S manifold..........TFF

[brunothedog]

I have the T-Max on my vrod and had to change out the rear cylinder sensor after 5000 miles in September, I am pretty sure the front sensor is showing signs of degrade as the trims are all over the place.
I have purchased the TTS for the reasoning that since the map is great, their will be little for the sensors to correct, and if the narrow band sensors fail, they cost a fraction of the price.

[strokerjlk]

...if a tuner cant get the same results from either one ,it is the tuners fault not the device.

Since you disable closed loop operation you probably wouldn't notice any difference.
Bob

now TTS has some magic over SESPT when in closed loop?   

[wolf_59]

I have the T-Max on my vrod and had to change out the rear cylinder sensor after 5000 miles in September, I am pretty sure the front sensor is showing signs of degrade as the trims are all over the place.
I have purchased the TTS for the reasoning that since the map is great, their will be little for the sensors to correct, and if the narrow band sensors fail, they cost a fraction of the price.

Exactly, I don't want another product that doesn't allow me to make the necessary changes to the VE tables to have a properly tuned engine that relies on the o2 sensors to fine tune for differences in fuel quality
Rider57
Can you tell us how bad a tank of fuel would have to be for the NB sensors not to be able to adjust? short of filling up with diesel or E85

[ultraswede]

Diesel has almost the same Lambda as gas, so its is  no practical difference there.
(cetane numbers on the other hand makes the engine miss fire, and eventually stop.)

E85 has 85% ethanol, which require an AFR of 9,5.

The adaptability on a stock NB sensor calibration is +-20%.
This mean that you can fill up with a total of 40% ethanol and still be with in the +- 20 % Afr ratio in closed loop.

To answer you question, if you fill up with the wrong fuel, yore screwed.
That's nothing a tune can change.

But you are safe from any variance in fuel composition from an AFR/lambda point of view.

[wolf_59]

 

E85 has 85% ethanol, which require an AFR of 9,5.

The adaptability on a stock NB sensor calibration is +-20%.
This mean that you can fill up with a total of 40% ethanol and still be with in the +- 20 % Afr ratio in closed loop.

But you are safe from any variance in fuel composition from an AFR/lambda point of view.

Thanks thats the information that I was looking for 

[FLTRI]

...if a tuner cant get the same results from either one ,it is the tuners fault not the device.

Since you disable closed loop operation you probably wouldn't notice any difference.
Bob

now TTS has some magic over SESPT when in closed loop?   

No magic, just a product that produces proper and expected results as targeted. Setting target closed loop Lambda or AFR but only getting 14.7 is what happens with the SEST...That's just one of the functional/nonfunctional differences. There are more but I don't want to bore you discussing closed loop tuning and operation since you only work in the open loop world.
Bob

[Steve Cole]

Seems this thread started because people wanted to learn, now it's just about saying my way is the right way and who cares about the facts.

The facts are simple for anyone who has been around and worked with O2 sensors for any length of time. Do they fail? They sure do. The question is how often and which ones. The failure rate on Broad Bands is off the scale compared to Switching and Wide Bands, so you ask why is that. Back when Broad Bands first came into the automotive aftermarket everyone said it was due to leaded fuel. That was because back then it was still popular to run and easy to get. Well 20+ years later  and 10 + years since leaded fuel was around they are still failing at a much higher rate than the other types of O2 sensors but in OEM applications they work fine and the failure rate is inline with all other types of sensors.

So why is it the OEM's can use them, make them work and last! It's because they are being used and installed in a fashion that meets the specifications that are called out for by the manufacture and they are not trying to use them for something they were not intended for. So the automotive aftermarket racing industry has learned what they do and don't do and just replace them or take them out prior to racing any.

So now here comes the HD aftermarket doing the same thing all over again and some are still expecting the results to be different. They do not tell anyone about proper installation or provide any specifications about heat and vibration issues with the Broad Band sensor. Then to top it all off they say they are better than the OEM sensors and are more accurate! Thats one of the biggest jokes there is and some people have bought into it hook line and sinker! I've been asked in the past to backup what I've said and I've done just that with the specification data from the manufactures and guess what, the same people who asked for the data then say it's not true and some claim to be tuners with dyno's and know that they themselves replace the sensors on the dyno! The ones that are honest will tell you they have to replace them the ones that say they don't have too  are the ones you should run and hide from.

Let's look at some of the claims and put some honest numbers out about a dyno operator. If you worked 365 days a year and did 2 bikes a day, everyday, you would have only done 730 bikes a year. If you cut it to work days only with no holidays your down to 520 bikes per year. Now take 2 weeks vacation out and holidays your down to ~450 bikes a year. Now let's go to the so called experts that have a full time job and do this on the side and you tell me how many they can possible have done. Most of them are lucky to see 25 bikes a year and there in lies the problem, they just do not get to see the cross section that manufactures get to see. Sure they can claim they talked with so and so all they want but in truth they just do not see enough bikes to really know any better.

So you take a shop that does say 450 bikes a year and runs the dyno/O2 system maybe 5 hours a day to get the 2 bikes per day done. That's 450/2=225 days of work. 225 * 5= 1125 hours of use of the dyno system. Now if this company has to replace the Broad Band sensor 5 times over the year that means its living about 225 hours of use. Now let's see how many miles of operation your going to get from 225 hours. An industry average is 100 hours = 3000 miles so 2.25 * 3000 = 6750 miles. Let's say you move that up to 6 sensors per year and it drops to 5625 miles. So now how do you like those odds?

This does not even bring into play anything about the drift that occurs with Broad Bands and Wide Bands or the fact that not one of the aftermarket HD suppliers is using the manufacture specifications on the install.

[Spurrs]

Now THAT is a good read! 

[1FSTRK]

I have the T-Max on my vrod and had to change out the rear cylinder sensor after 5000 miles in September, I am pretty sure the front sensor is showing signs of degrade as the trims are all over the place.
I have purchased the TTS for the reasoning that since the map is great, their will be little for the sensors to correct, and if the narrow band sensors fail, they cost a fraction of the price.

A little over 48hrs after I posted the questions on ACTUAL VERIFIED USER FAILURES here is the update.
A couple more posts about how the sky is falling, the sky is falling, and 1 that’s right one member that had one verified sensor failure after 5000 miles and has decided to take the system off. Maybe I should add a question on stock sensor failures. At this rate I should easily keep up with the data input.
Thank you brunothedog for your post and I hope you will report back to keep us updated on you new TTS progress.
So just to recap   1
I’ll check back tomorrow

[1FSTRK]

I have the T-Max on my vrod and had to change out the rear cylinder sensor after 5000 miles in September, I am pretty sure the front sensor is showing signs of degrade as the trims are all over the place.
I have purchased the TTS for the reasoning that since the map is great, their will be little for the sensors to correct, and if the narrow band sensors fail, they cost a fraction of the price.

Did tmax have a base map that matched your bike?
Did tmax ever perform as you had expected?

[TXP]

I hope other dyno operators will chime in on this. This is an excerpt of a pm I sent to another tuner on this forum before Steve's post went up. My sensor usage/replacement is very much in line with the averages he posted, actually my usage is a little above those #s as I am in an area with high humidity which also has an effect.
" Last year I used 3 in the main dyno pump and 4 in the wideband commander I have wired in and use for cruise testing on true duals etc. I have the Dyno set up which runs off compressed air for vacuum now, just hooked it up today. I'm told the sensors are lasting longer in this set up."
I installed a pressure regulator and a water trap in line right before it enters the new style pump and set the vacuum to spec. I am very interested to see if the sensors will last longer with the later setup as opposed to what I was seeing with the older "pump" version.

[Steve Cole]

So you used up about 7 Broad Band sensors in a year of tuning on the dyno. How many bikes do you feel you did all year on those sensors? How many hours per bike do you feel you ran the Broad Bands?

I think that the remote mount of the sensor is going to help and it is going to make the temperature much better as well. The pump should keep the pressure stable.

[1FSTRK]

If a car getting 200,000 miles does not count why would dyno installations count.
Just more apples to oranges.
Lets keep it simple BIKES that have run the systems and were removed due to failures.
The count is still at 1

[Steve Cole]

What are you so afraid of..................... the truth coming out again!

Let's get the aftermarket to use and install the sensor the same as the OE car guys then we can compare to them. Comparing to a dyno operator on HD bikes is going to be about as good as it gets. After all its using the sensor as the aftermarket calls for on a HD bike!

[1FSTRK]

What are you so afraid of..................... the truth coming out again!

Let's get the aftermarket to use and install the sensor the same as the OE car guys then we can compare to them. Comparing to a dyno operator on HD bikes is going to be about as good as it gets. After all its using the sensor as the aftermarket calls for on a HD bike!

Count is still 1 until someone posts another actual bike failure.
Wonder what you are so afraid of?

[Steve Cole]

Not a thing when it comes to the life of Broad Band sensors in an aftermarket application. Remember I've been the one that's had to work with them for over 20 years, what experience do you have?

[TXP]

My dyno saw somewhere between 200 and 230 bikes last year. Since I was running two pumps as stated thats what 3.5 sensors average. I have used as many as 6 sensors on the main pump in one year. That's a fair # of actual bikes on one dyno in a normal year for me. Some may do more and some less but that is quite a bit of dyno time, you can bank on that.  Several different tuning products were used as well. TTS, SESPT, PCIII, PCV and T-Max. Now you can look at some websites out there where some are claiming to tune 5,000 and up bikes per year but surely no one with basic math skills believes that one. I check my sensors with the test gas regularly and am very diligent in maintaining my dyno. Some may argue I change my sensors more than needed, so be it. In this business one bad tune will get more "press" if you will than fifty good ones. I'm wondering how just saying the count is one qualifies or quantifies anything as I doubt many end users have the test gas or any method other than seat of the pants to base their conclusions on. On mild stage one units you can stick a base map or even install a PC with a zero map in it and quite frankly the bike will run down the road reasonably well for example. Open or closed loop!! Doesn't mean its tuned right, just means It'll run. Just because the rider doesn't necessarily feel it, doesn't mean the engine doesn't. Even if you don't want to count dyno's in this thread, it would be interesting to see what other operators are seeing posted up in this discussion.

[BVHOG]

Not a thing when it comes to the life of Broad Band sensors in an aftermarket application. Remember I've been the one that's had to work with them for over 20 years, what experience do you have?

Some of the info you add to these threads is valuable but personally I feel your 20 years experience would be more credible if you did not have anything to gain monetarily by repeatedly trying to point out the application shortcomings of the model of sensor that YOU do not use yet tell us nothing about the shortcomings of the sensors you depend on for your tuning system which as the case is are NOT being used for the intended application either. I feel your posts are biased and tainted for the above reason and should be discounted at some level because of this.

[strokerjlk]

No magic, just a product that produces proper and expected results as targeted. Setting target closed loop Lambda or AFR but only getting 14.7 is what happens with the SEST...That's just one of the functional/nonfunctional differences. There are more but I don't want to bore you discussing closed loop tuning and operation since you only work in the open loop world.
Bob

if it were believable....it wouldnt be boring.
fact is I have seen it on both SESPT and TTS.

[hrdtail78]

BVHOG and Strokerjlk,

How often do you change the broadbands on your dyno?  Are you guys seeing what I am?  Putting them directly into pipes is the shortest life.  Using the dynojet location or better yet "Herko Blocks" lets them last longer?

[1FSTRK]

The O2 sensors used in "cars" have to last longer than 30k. The big issue with all O2 sensor as they age is response time. The amount of time an O2 sensor switches from RICH to LEAN and LEAN to RICH changes over time. That "aging" time lag change must be taken into account when the emissions are developed. When I did those calibrations the way it was done is we had a "new" system of converters and O2 sensors, and also many sets of "AGED" hardware that had been aged to 150k miles. Emissions standards also are slightly different with miles. ( EPA allow some degradation with miles)
The emissions must still be met as the system ages.

What that means is the "lifespan" of an O2 sensor may not meet emissions requirements becasue of those changes in response times, but from a "PRACTICAL" pont of view, the aged sensor can still work for closed loop fuel control after even longer than the "stated lifespan." ( They may just not continue to be able to meet "emissions" requirement)

So as a caution, there is a difference between a O2 sensor "LIFE" where the O2 sensor no longer FUNCTIONS and the point where they simply no longer meet "emission standards." The OEM stated "life span" obviously is based on meeting emissions! Not absolute from a FUNCTION standpoint!
( I should add the O2 sensor "life" is a function of operating temperature. So one person that rides easy might get twice as much useful life from an O2 sensor as someone that rides HARD. Contamination is also a major "killer" of O2 sensors. Some things that can poision a sensor are "oiled air filters" that are over oiled as well as engines that have an "oil consumpsion"issue!)

Differences between the narrow prospective of the laboratory and the workings of the real world.

[BVHOG]

BVHOG and Strokerjlk,

How often do you change the broadbands on your dyno?  Are you guys seeing what I am?  Putting them directly into pipes is the shortest life.  Using the dynojet location or better yet "Herko Blocks" lets them last longer?

I swapped both out last spring, they still checked out the same for the free air cal, had one of the replacements go bad after maybe a dozen tunes that I didn't feel free air cal'd properly and no problems since, I will swap out again this spring when the season gets busy here. If I feel at times one sensor may be drifting or not reading correctly I simply either swap the sniffer hoses or wiring and see if the results swap out in line as well, easy test.  No doubt being in the pipes on a dyno can subject them to some high heat they may encounter on load runs if the afr is a little lean. Always better if you are seeing a lean afr while tuning  to simply shut down and add fuel into the area you will be working into and work back from rich(within reason) to the proper afr rather than lean to the proper afr, easier on everything.
Personally for me, a couple sets of sensors a year is really no big deal, the cost is very affordable when spread out over the number of tunes.

[Steve Cole]

Not a thing when it comes to the life of Broad Band sensors in an aftermarket application. Remember I've been the one that's had to work with them for over 20 years, what experience do you have?

Some of the info you add to these threads is valuable but personally I feel your 20 years experience would be more credible if you did not have anything to gain monetarily by repeatedly trying to point out the application shortcomings of the model of sensor that YOU do not use yet tell us nothing about the shortcomings of the sensors you depend on for your tuning system which as the case is are NOT being used for the intended application either. I feel your posts are biased and tainted for the above reason and should be discounted at some level because of this.

So what your trying to do is say I'm not telling the truth about the Broad Bands, sorry but I have just reported the facts just as I did the last two times we've gone down this road. Each time you jump in with no facts or figures just an opinion, with no data to back up what your opinion is. Then when your presented with the real facts and figures you still want to say " It cannot be" well sorry but it is. How about you start doing this full time and get more than a few tunes a year under your belt.

As you noted our product uses the Switching sensors and it limits the range you can adjust in, why is that? It's because that is the range the the manufacture says they work in. So we were real stupid and setup a system that only works in the range the manufacture of the sensor says it will work in. We can setup one that works in a wide range but that would require dyno operator to step up and buy real Wide Band equipment not the Broad Band stuff. When we talked with the owners/Tuners/operators they were not willing to spend that kind of money for testing and tuning so we did not bother. In any case that has nothing to do with the Broad Band sensor life and durability.

I swapped both out last spring, they still checked out the same for the free air cal, had one of the replacements go bad after maybe a dozen tunes that I didn't feel free air cal'd properly and no problems since, I will swap out again this spring when the season gets busy here. If I feel at times one sensor may be drifting or not reading correctly I simply either swap the sniffer hoses or wiring and see if the results swap out in line as well, easy test.  No doubt being in the pipes on a dyno can subject them to some high heat they may encounter on load runs if the afr is a little lean. Always better if you are seeing a lean afr while tuning  to simply shut down and add fuel into the area you will be working into and work back from rich(within reason) to the proper afr rather than lean to the proper afr, easier on everything.
Personally for me, a couple sets of sensors a year is really no big deal, the cost is very affordable when spread out over the number of tunes.

So with the few tunes you do a year you had to swap out sensors already and you say its affordable. That speaks very poorly for Broad Band sensor life just with you! Why is it that your NOT checking the Broad Band Sensor calibration with calibration gas as your supposed too? Why should a little Lean bother a Broad Band?

Do you really think a bike owner is going to have the experience to know when one is bad, let alone be able to calibrate them. How many owners are going to pull the sensors out of the exhaust pipes, free air calibrate then reinstall and go for a ride. Your worried about having the sensors in the pipes on the dyno just for tuning, where are they going to go for a bike owner with a system that uses Broad Bands? You might run them for all of 4 hours when tuning a bike, Hell that's not even a days ride for most and you think they are going to last for years of service on a customers bike. 

TXP

You and any other real tuner knows just how long it takes to do 200 bikes in the real world. Those who claim just 1000 bikes a year are pushing it as far as I'm concerned. It takes time to tune and I do not care what your using to do it. If you consider a WOT pull, quick adjust, another WOT pull and out then door as a tune then I guess you could do that many. I know many builders that have spent days getting the combination tuned properly. They tell me they can still spend a few hours when they build the same thing in another bike and they already have a base tune that's done. All the same parts just are not all the same parts when you begin to pay attention to the details.

Look guys I would love to see an inexpensive (cheap) sensor that would do the job and last. If one comes along I can Guarantee we will be using it in our system, but until that time comes along we will stick to what has been proven to work and last. We will limit any sensor to the range that the manufacture of the sensor says it will work in.

[FLTRI]

My main objections with the LSU4 sensors as applied to permanent mounting to header pipes right outside the exhaust port is:
1) Not knowing when the sensor(s) is/are showing signs of degradation and telling the ECM it needs to change the fueling based on incorrect/drifted data.
2) 99.99% of all riders do not have equipment to properly monitor their sensors. That is not to say someone couldn't invest the $$ for the equipment, just that IME riders want to ride rather than wrench/monitor O2 sensors. (tuning "experts" here excluded, of course)
As always, JMHO,
Bob

[BVHOG]

OK Steve, a few bikes a year, quite a few actually, two just since Thursday, if you had bothered to read my post you would have seen that I only had one failure, I simply replace them as a precaution,cheap insurance,  as for the lean afr, it produces much more heat, which as you know can be detrimental to long engine life and as you have said in the past, sensor life.  As for doing this full time, it was -14 here this morn, not a lot of riders out or guys thinking about their bikes, I would rather do this as a hobby and have the luxury of not needing to pump out a ton and of bikes and spam the forums just to make payroll. 
Nice of you to mention your product again, obviously the only reason you are here doing damage control by trying to discredit the broad band systems, guess what? it's not working, many happy owners of bikes tuned with broad bands or running broad band auto tuning devices. YOU are the minority like has been mentioned before, since the MoCo has went another direction with their need for a tuning device the TTS is pretty much only heard of here on the forums.  How about some hard data on the narrow band sensors and their limitations or are you keeping that from us for some reason? They sure as hell weren't developed for some type of self tuning product.
BTW, since you seem to be an authority on the subject, how many bikes a year do you tune? You do actually run a bike for each calibration don't you? That must be a pretty steady job just finding all these SE builds to tune, amazing you don't find some Wood cam or Andrews cammed builds along the way. A person could get the wrong impression that you were just copying the work done with the SEST.  I trust that's not the case though.

[Steve Cole]

Here we go again, absolutely no data from you again. Here you are trying to ruin another good thread. I did not bring our product into this discussion, you did. I do not have to do this for payroll or any other BS you can bring up because you do not like the facts. I've got no damage control to do as our system works as advertised and it does it day in and day out.

I just got to ask if you are truely as dumb as you let on here?

The stock bike ECM does all the tuning each time it's running, that's what the closed loop ECM does. We have not modified it in anyway from the stock OEM application! We just take the ECM generated data and generate a new base calibration so that it no longer has to make these corrections. So guess what, we do use the stock OEM switching sensors just as they were designed to be used and as they are being used each and everyday on every closed loop Delphi equipped HD motorcycle and 99% of every vehicle produced in the world today. As for there specifications it's been listed time and time again. There tuning range is 14.68 +/- .3 AFR, anything more I need to repeat for you again?

As for the amount of HD bikes I do each year the answer is more than most, fewer than others. If I had to guess last year it was most likely in the 200 range for HD's only. The big advantage I have is I deal with no less than 300 tuners around the world and help them tune all kinds of HD bikes daily. I've worked with Wide Band, Broad Band and Switching sensors for the past 20 years and pretty well know what they do in the field and in the lab. I have personal been hired to do EFI work for the US EPA, HD, General Motors, CARB and several aftermarket companies. When HD sold our products I was the guy that taught the dealers how to tune with the products at the dealer shows and worked with those who were to become the teachers at HDU.

So please explain to us all your personal vast expertise with O2 sensors.

[1FSTRK]

Has anyone out there used one of the aftermarket broad band tuning systems, and had the AFR's wander or sensors quit on your own personal bike?

Did you remove it and replace it with narrow band sensors and new tuner and fix your problem?

Did it operate as described in the beginning

How many miles did you get before the problems started?

Update 72 hours after my question
Lots more bs
No more actual failures. Where are all the real people with failures
Out of 9800 members on this site
Total actual reported failures is still   1

[BVHOG]

Here we go again, absolutely no data from you again. Here you are trying to ruin another good thread. I did not bring our product into this discussion, you did. I do not have to do this for payroll or any other BS you can bring up because you do not like the facts. I've got no damage control to do as our system works as advertised and it does it day in and day out.

I just got to ask if you are truely as dumb as you let on here?

The stock bike ECM does all the tuning each time it's running, that's what the closed loop ECM does. We have not modified it in anyway from the stock OEM application! We just take the ECM generated data and generate a new base calibration so that it no longer has to make these corrections. So guess what, we do use the stock OEM switching sensors just as they were designed to be used and as they are being used each and everyday on every closed loop Delphi equipped HD motorcycle and 99% of every vehicle produced in the world today. As for there specifications it's been listed time and time again. There tuning range is 14.68 +/- .3 AFR, anything more I need to repeat for you again?

As for the amount of HD bikes I do each year the answer is more than most, fewer than others. If I had to guess last year it was most likely in the 200 range for HD's only. The big advantage I have is I deal with no less than 300 tuners around the world and help them tune all kinds of HD bikes daily. I've worked with Wide Band, Broad Band and Switching sensors for the past 20 years and pretty well know what they do in the field and in the lab. I have personal been hired to do EFI work for the US EPA, HD, General Motors, CARB and several aftermarket companies. When HD sold our products I was the guy that taught the dealers how to tune with the products at the dealer shows and worked with those who were to become the teachers at HDU.

So please explain to us all your personal vast expertise with O2 sensors.

Nice, the dumb comment, I think that falls under a personal attack.  I might not be the smartest person int he world but I am smart enough to see all the way through your BS.
A couple hundred bikes huh, and these are all SE builds?  Hard to believe at least one of these wouldn't have had an Andrews cam that you could have made a cal for and made it available to your customers.
OH, and you did use the term "our product" in a previous post, yep, it was you.
14.68 +/- .3 AFR ? then explain how they were designed to bring the afr from for example 16 to 1 back to the 14.68 plus or minus that you state they were developed for.  I'm kinda dumb but I think that's more than +/- .3  you stated.
You should just bow out of this thread now because your obviously biased information is useless here. Asking you about a Wide Band vs Narrow is like asking a Ford Dealer about buying a Chevy.
As for the 200 bikes you tune, I can't believe I have never heard about a single one here or on any of the forums that you tuned, you would think someone would have posted up a sheet at some point.
I have a Niece out in Az, if I were to refer her to you for a tune could she actually bring the bike to tts (the turbo shop) for a tune and expect to have it done there by you?
I may be dumb Steve but at least I know who I am and do not try to BS the general public for personal gain. Can you honestly say that?

[mayor]

gentlemen,

please keep the discusion civil, respectful, and on topic. There has been some good technical discusions on this thread, but continued personal attacks will get this thread locked. 

[strokerjlk]

BVHOG and Strokerjlk,

How often do you change the broadbands on your dyno?  Are you guys seeing what I am?  Putting them directly into pipes is the shortest life.  Using the dynojet location or better yet "Herko Blocks" lets them last longer?

I change them when they drift .2-.3 I save them and use them in the dynojet pumps. (just for verification)I have only had 1 failure when I burnt the wire,on my pipe. Chris @ Twin Tech replaced one once when I sent him my TS. It tested good but didnt like the twin scan for some reason.
I dont see any faster rate of drifting in the pipes vs the pump or manifold.
I used two for miles and miles when I was tuning bikes on the road before I bought a dyno. I still have them and they haven't drifted so far that I would be afraid to use them. in fact I still use them in my bike for road logging at times. I have abused them pretty well, thousands of miles in the head pipes,running and not running. so I dont buy into the ...they have to be powered up or they will fail either. while I dont really care for any of the auto tuners, (rev perf excluded because I dont know anything about them) I dont think they (broad bands) will fail or drift far enough for any of the "home" tuner or T-max lovers to be detrimental to a motor or tune. .2-.3 isnt going to kill a tune with one of these auto tuners. I just think if a guy is paying for a tune I should take the steps to have as accurate of equipment as possible. I know of a few T-max lovers with over 30,000 miles on them.

[FLTRI]

...I dont think they (broad bands) will fail or drift far enough for any of the "home" tuner or T-max lovers to be detrimental to a motor or tune. .2-.3 isnt going to kill a tune with one of these auto tuners. I just think if a guy is paying for a tune I should take the steps to have as accurate of equipment as possible...

Actually I have seen both broadband and switching sensors as far as 1 full AFR off, albeit to the rich side, which won't kill an engine or tune enough for most to notice...except fuel mileage and maybe throttle response...which is about the only way for riders to somewhat monitor their O2 sensors...at least to suspect/check/change them.
Bob

[Herko]

Some of the things I've seen via testing related to LSU4 sensors that live in a Dyno tuning environment. Methods include lab calibration gases and simultaneous mounting of two sensors in the same head pipe for cross check and comparison.

A sensor can show good in a free air cal test but be off significantly in the 12.5 to 13.5 range.
A sensor can show good near stoich but be off at 13.2.
As discussed here, pressure changes will change the output reading. (Easy to do and see with a sensor test manifold apparatus).

I compared the readings of the DJ AFR sniffer to the DTT WEGO system. A calibration lab gas was used for this test. These two particular systems were within 0.1 of each other. The cal gas used shows 13.2 AFR of the DJ Dyno AFR sniffer with a Bosch LSU4 in good working order. (DJ 13.2 / DTT 13.1)

This particular gas (as of course so will other cal and exhaust gasses) will cause an output voltage of X from the sensor. It's up to the designer/manufacturer of a given sniffer system to have it's hardware/firmware/software to take this voltage of X and show a given AFR. This is where various systems can differ on what the AFR output display number will show from the same gas.

Referencing the cal gas used that shows 13.2 AFR of the DJ Dyno AFR sniffer...
What is the exact true AFR equivalent of this cal gas? Not sure. But that fact that I know what readings it will consistently show (with the systems I have on hand) will in-turn tell me when a sensor is drifting and going bad.

There have been threads on various forums discussing what to look for and ask of your Dyno tuner. There are several items. But one that I don't see often but is important IMO:  What test procedure does the tuner use for checking the condition of the O2 sensor(s) for the applied sniffer that will be used for the tune process?

[Steve Cole]

Here we go again, absolutely no data from you again. Here you are trying to ruin another good thread. I did not bring our product into this discussion, you did. I do not have to do this for payroll or any other BS you can bring up because you do not like the facts. I've got no damage control to do as our system works as advertised and it does it day in and day out.

I just got to ask if you are truely as dumb as you let on here?

The stock bike ECM does all the tuning each time it's running, that's what the closed loop ECM does. We have not modified it in anyway from the stock OEM application! We just take the ECM generated data and generate a new base calibration so that it no longer has to make these corrections. So guess what, we do use the stock OEM switching sensors just as they were designed to be used and as they are being used each and everyday on every closed loop Delphi equipped HD motorcycle and 99% of every vehicle produced in the world today. As for there specifications it's been listed time and time again. There tuning range is 14.68 +/- .3 AFR, anything more I need to repeat for you again?

As for the amount of HD bikes I do each year the answer is more than most, fewer than others. If I had to guess last year it was most likely in the 200 range for HD's only. The big advantage I have is I deal with no less than 300 tuners around the world and help them tune all kinds of HD bikes daily. I've worked with Wide Band, Broad Band and Switching sensors for the past 20 years and pretty well know what they do in the field and in the lab. I have personal been hired to do EFI work for the US EPA, HD, General Motors, CARB and several aftermarket companies. When HD sold our products I was the guy that taught the dealers how to tune with the products at the dealer shows and worked with those who were to become the teachers at HDU.

So please explain to us all your personal vast expertise with O2 sensors.

Nice, the dumb comment, I think that falls under a personal attack.  I might not be the smartest person int he world but I am smart enough to see all the way through your BS.
A couple hundred bikes huh, and these are all SE builds?  Hard to believe at least one of these wouldn't have had an Andrews cam that you could have made a cal for and made it available to your customers.
OH, and you did use the term "our product" in a previous post, yep, it was you.
14.68 +/- .3 AFR ? then explain how they were designed to bring the afr from for example 16 to 1 back to the 14.68 plus or minus that you state they were developed for.  I'm kinda dumb but I think that's more than +/- .3  you stated.
You should just bow out of this thread now because your obviously biased information is useless here. Asking you about a Wide Band vs Narrow is like asking a Ford Dealer about buying a Chevy.
As for the 200 bikes you tune, I can't believe I have never heard about a single one here or on any of the forums that you tuned, you would think someone would have posted up a sheet at some point.
I have a Niece out in Az, if I were to refer her to you for a tune could she actually bring the bike to tts (the turbo shop) for a tune and expect to have it done there by you?
I may be dumb Steve but at least I know who I am and do not try to BS the general public for personal gain. Can you honestly say that?

Not a personal attack at all, just pointing out that you donot understand how the HD closed loop system works. I have pointed out what I have seen and where I find that people are being lead down the wrong path. I backed it up with facts, the manufactures data sheets and real world experience. These same experiences have been seen by and reported here on this forum by Doc 1, Herko, TXP, Rider57, FLTRI, hrdtail78 and others numerous times. I've even gone as far as to suggest ways to help with the issues and reported the proper use and placement of these sensors.

Now let's take your above example.

"14.68 +/- .3 AFR ? then explain how they were designed to bring the afr from for example 16 to 1 back to the 14.68 plus or minus that you state they were developed for.  I'm kinda dumb but I think that's more than +/- .3  you stated. "

So the factory ECM reads the sensor and it's makes an adjustment to it and it is limited to ~20% so it pulls the reading from 16:1 to about 12.8:1 by moving it 20%. So now that's too rich and that is not in a range that the sensor can read accurately but the ECM does have the range to do it. So the ECM knows it's too lean at 16:1 so it richens the mixture and then reads it again. Each time it adjust and richens the mixture until it can properly read the mixture at which point it does one of two things. It stops making adjustments or if it's gone to far it adjust back the other direction a slight amount so that it zero's in on the 14.68 +/- .3 afr target that has been set in the ECM. Really simple isn't it.

Now if you can understand how it works, the next level is that the ECM must "Learn" those adjustments so the next time the engine is running in that same condition it can use the same adjustment it made before to zero the mixture right in. Now that's where we come in. The ECM does NOT have the ability to Learn each and every adjustment. So it can only store a few and then must adjust all over again each time. We have the ability to store all of the adjustments made by the ECM and then apply them to make the new calibration. So now can you explain here how we are using the Switching Sensor outside of what it was designed for please! This is how the Delphi ECM works and it's worked this way from the time they introduced closed loop to HD applications in 2006.

"I can't believe I have never heard about a single one here or on any of the forums that you tuned"

If you want to see just one of the bikes I've tuned how about picking up the current issue (March) of Hot Bike magazine.

Look this thread started about Broad Band, Wide Band and Switching Sensors. There have been several other tuners in this thread and many other threads that have seen just what I have, and posted there results with Broad Band sensors and it shows the same results as we have seen in the automotive industry for these sensors for years. You can chose to bury your head in the sand all you want but cannot not expect everyone else to do the same thing. In the old days fuel was pretty stable for the most part. Today fuel ranges from 14.68 - 14.28 base fuel. Now add to that the independent testing that has shown levels of ethanol reaching 30% at some service stations you can begin to see the need of running a closed loop fuel system. The high level of ethanol comes from several things. Ethanol is NOT mixed into the base fuel it is added into the tank on the truck when the base fuel is pumped in. When fuel sits the ethanol separates back out again. So modern day storage tanks have a mixer built in, so that the fuel in the tank can be remixed to stop the separation. So if it an old station with older storage tank what happens?

I've used the word cheap and that seems to have gotten some people upset so let's just call them inexpensive Broad Band sensors as they are NOT Wide Bands and to use that name on them misleads people into thinking they are getting the quality and accuracy of a real Wide Band.

[Jeffd]

Excellent post Steve.

[Jamie Long]

This is the big deal that those who are pushing for the cheap Bosch Broad Band sensor not a real Wide Band on a HD keep trying to hide. The Broad Band sensor has been used for years in the OEM automotive world it was developed for them but NOT ONE uses it for primary fuel control! If it was so good every manufacture would dump the switching O2 sensors just for the cost savings alone let along all the electronics and wiring they could drop.

The Broad Band sensor from Bosch is used as a catalytic converter test device and that's it. They are positioned behind the catalytic converter to insure the converter is working properly. The OEM's use as many as 4 switching O2 sensors per vehicle for primary fuel control to meet emissions these days. Any aftermarket people who have to do quality testing and need repeatable results use a good Wide Band system, the cheap ones just do not hold up and are not accurate enough in today's world of testing.
conditions “rich” or “lean” and is for the measuring gas from LSU test bench in section...."

The LSU Wideband sensor is actually used upstream from the convertor on a wide range of models, one example is the Ford Mustang which uses the cheap wideband before and a switching sensor after. According to various automotive tuning sources this wideband sensor is very much a part of fuel control and is widely accepted as very accurate.

[1FSTRK]

Has anyone out there used one of the aftermarket broad band tuning systems, and had the AFR's wander or sensors quit on your own personal bike?

Did you remove it and replace it with narrow band sensors and new tuner and fix your problem?

Did it operate as described in the beginning

How many miles did you get before the problems started?

We are at just over 4 days and I do not want to jump the gun and make any outrageous claims about broad band sensors and the systems that use them but it is starting to look a little like we won’t see the flood of failures that we’ve been promised.

I think that the information from the Bosch site is solid and some very good information on the actual sensors themselves has been posted. The differing opinions on the different tuning products that use these two sensors will be left to the only opinion that counts, the public. I will continue to gather and report any information on failures of either sensor type and any fallout resulting from the failures. I believe that recording the actual problems we the consumers experience and the steps we take to solve them is the best way to keep informed on this very controversial subject.

We have over 9800 members now
The total reported member broad band bike failure is       1
Total broad band systems replaced with a different system because they had a sensor failure, the same 1

[Steve Cole]

Total reported successful HD customers high mileage broad bands  reported is    1

So now that we have 1 of each and a bunch of dyno operators that have to replace several a year what have we learned?

[BVHOG]

Total reported successful HD customers high mileage broad bands  reported is    1

So now that we have 1 of each and a bunch of dyno operators that have to replace several a year what have we learned?

We have learned we have dyno operators that like to maintain their equipment.
Have you had any experience with the propane method of testing 02 sensors?

[Steve Cole]

Total reported successful HD customers high mileage broad bands  reported is    1

So now that we have 1 of each and a bunch of dyno operators that have to replace several a year what have we learned?

We have learned we have dyno operators that like to maintain their equipment.
Have you had any experience with the propane method of testing 02 sensors?

We've learn that the dyno operators know the truth and make sure that there systems are working correctly.
As for testing an O2's with propane or a cigarette lighter we used to do that back in the 70's. Now days anyone testing for accurate results uses calibration gas as the old way didn't really do anything other than to tell you it was doing something but who knows what.

[harleyguynv]

Has anyone out there used one of the aftermarket broad band tuning systems, and had the AFR's wander or sensors quit on your own personal bike?

Did you remove it and replace it with narrow band sensors and new tuner and fix your problem?

Did it operate as described in the beginning

How many miles did you get before the problems started?

We are at just over 4 days and I do not want to jump the gun and make any outrageous claims about broad band sensors and the systems that use them but it is starting to look a little like we won't see the flood of failures that we've been promised.

I think that the information from the Bosch site is solid and some very good information on the actual sensors themselves has been posted. The differing opinions on the different tuning products that use these two sensors will be left to the only opinion that counts, the public. I will continue to gather and report any information on failures of either sensor type and any fallout resulting from the failures. I believe that recording the actual problems we the consumers experience and the steps we take to solve them is the best way to keep informed on this very controversial subject.

We have over 9800 members now
The total reported member broad band bike failure is       1
Total broad band systems replaced with a different system because they had a sensor failure, the same 1

As an end user I read several other boards daily and have for years and I don't post very often. I can't say that I've read much negative about the wide/broad band sensors on any of the boards. The only consistant negative that I ever recall reading is from a very few posters. They are always the same people. It seems like they have some ax to grind on the subject. I probably know around 15 people who have the Auto Tune system that have never had an issue and are very happy with them. I can say that when I bought mine nobody tried to deceive me in any way about the product. I believe it is the same with the others I know who own the same system. I probably will have to change a sensor at some point but it is a Harley and it seems like there are always things that need attention. 

[FLTRI]

...I probably will have to change a sensor at some point ...

How will you know when to change a sensor? This is the point of these experienced tuners, etc. Since broadband sensor outputs are supposed to be conditioned for temperature and pressure compensation in order to expect proper readings, how does a rider know when his/her sensor is degrading?

Most all narrow band failures are detectable because an engine light illuminates when the expected signal is dropped or out of normal range. This is and has been for many years typical in the automotive industry as well.

Broadband sensors simply start to degrade drifting the readings over time. The ECM sees those drifted/erroneous reading and try to compensate, usually casing rich running condition. The rider, if he keeps good fuel mileage records could conceivably see the mileage go down and buy and replace sensors...but this only a guess at best.
Bob
PS - An engine will run OK when it excessively rich.

[harleyguynv]

...I probably will have to change a sensor at some point ...

How will you know when to change a sensor? This is the point of these experienced tuners, etc. Since broadband sensor outputs are supposed to be conditioned for temperature and pressure compensation in order to expect proper readings, how does a rider know when his/her sensor is degrading?

Most all narrow band failures are detectable because an engine light illuminates when the expected signal is dropped or out of normal range. This is and has been for many years typical in the automotive industry as well.

Broadband sensors simply start to degrade drifting the readings over time. The ECM sees those drifted/erroneous reading and try to compensate, usually casing rich running condition. The rider, if he keeps good fuel mileage records could conceivably see the mileage go down and buy and replace sensors...but this only a guess at best.
Bob
PS - An engine will run OK when it excessively rich.

Like most people that gets a system like this I like to play/tinker with my bike. I watch my trims very closely.  If I see a change that looks different than normal I would address it.

[1FSTRK]

 Thanks for sharing your personal experiences with us. I feel that there are a lot of people that have had the same results as you and your friends that is why I phrased my questions for the people that would by posting give credence to the theory that this approach would be so problematic. It seems that we can go all day long having people from each camp post how happy they are. A person that paid hard earned money for something then did not have it perform to his satisfaction, removed it, and spent more money to take a different approach to keeping his bike in tune seems to be more a sign of an actual flawed system. Gathering the data in this way does not require that any brand be attacked or any other brand be indorsed it merely shows people are having enough trouble with the broad band tuning method  they have spent more money to remove it..

It has been over a week and we have had over 50 posts to this thread after I posted my questions. We have had 1 person post they had the predicted problem on a bike and followed through with a replacement.
I would ask that anyone reading this thread read through the threads on SE comp sprockets, factory Twin cam sprocket shaft bearings, or any of the other threads that show a real product problem and how members of this forum report on it. While the expert offered information has been welcome here it should not be seen as a conclusion on the subject but instead as information to be taken into account when drawing a conclusion. The actual existence of a problem will be evident when viewed in the arena of public performance

[ultraswede]

I am convinced that the lack of replaced wide/broad band systems is due mostly to one fact alone;

It is beyond most customers/bikers (not dyno operators) competence and intrest to actually diagnose sensor drift.
Ask outside this thread, even in this forum, how many understand what we are talking about??....

A secondary reason if above assumption is false;
Reason two, even if sensor drift is spotted, does my bike run any worse?
propably not. Is it worth a new tune and multi $ to fix a "non problem"?

If we compare to the carburetor days, I think we are in good shape AFR vise,
which ever sensor our tuning product is using.

[1FSTRK]

That is my point exactly. Every one of these systems takes certain liberties depending on what the designer is willing to compromise to achieve his particular focus point.
It is one thing to point out a design spec in a product so that the public is aware when making their decision on a purchase. It is quite a different thing to say anyone that purchases the product will experience problems that will make them regret their decision and cost them more money.

[mayor]

since this thread is about 02 sensor style and accuracy, I figured I'd post some relative data.    Last year I ran my T-max controlled bagger on a dyno.  I bought the T-max used (unkown milage on the 02 sensors), and at the time of dyno run I ran the bike about 11k or so miles since installing the T-max.  So for those keeping track, it's unkown miles plus 11k on the sensors before the below comparision:

Here's my afr settings for 4k:

I had my heavy throttle settings at 13:1 afr.

and my wide open throttle afr (from dyno sniffer):

it looks like the afr settings matches the recorded afr at 4k from the sniffer. Kinda looks like the auto-tune module was doing it's thing well too.     as a dyi guy, I'm less concerned that the broad bands are perfect or exact....and more concerned that the bike feels right. Although, I would read the above that the 02 sensors mounted on my bike agreed pretty closely with the 02 sensor mounted on the dyno.   As Ultraswede pointed out, I would love my to get my carb bikes dialed in so well over such a long rpm range.

[1FSTRK]

Good information Mayor. Have you performed any maintenance or any kind of recalibration to zero the sensors in that 11k?

[mayor]

nope.     the T-max has a built in recal that is performed at start up, but it's based on free air in the pipe (for what that's worth  ).  I did replace a sensor later in the year, after that run though.  I noticed that the front 02 sensors wire had a slice in the shield that went into one of the wires, so I figured it would be best to switch it out. I didn't see a difference in performance or milage after the switch though. 

[Rider57]

Well this topic has run from one end to the extream other.
For the record, if there is such a thing, I do not use the O2's for tuning.
I sample the exhaust and that's it.
If I had to use the onboard sensors I wouldnt even attempt it.
I cant depend on the switching sensor when the variables of it can be controled via the tables.
I look at the Tq, Hp from the dyne and the emissions from my system.
It is far more accurate, independant and is calibrated 3 times per day.
Not everyone has a 5 gas system sitting in the garage with state certified cal bottles.
The system is accurate to within .0002 ppm on Nox, CO, CO2, THC.
Tuning by O2's! Never, doesnt work to my satisfaction, wideband, broadband or Narrowband, never.

[strokerjlk]

Well this topic has run from one end to the extream other.
For the record, if there is such a thing, I do not use the O2's for tuning.
I sample the exhaust and that's it.
If I had to use the onboard sensors I wouldnt even attempt it.
I cant depend on the switching sensor when the variables of it can be controled via the tables.
I look at the Tq, Hp from the dyne and the emissions from my system.
It is far more accurate, independant and is calibrated 3 times per day.
Not everyone has a 5 gas system sitting in the garage with state certified cal bottles.
The system is accurate to within .0002 ppm on Nox, CO, CO2, THC.
Tuning by O2's! Never, doesnt work to my satisfaction, wideband, broadband or Narrowband, never.

what type of system are you using?
I assume you steady state tune ,what kind of response time do you see?
I steady state tune everything already,so no big deal for me.
I agree that 4-5 gas would be better than AFR tuning,but price has held me back.
since this thread has been all over the place anyway,give us guys that would someday like to upgrade,a little more insight into your system

[lonewolf]

I am sure Rider57 will reply with the details but it's a Horiba. New they are worth the price of a decent house.

[Rider57]

5 gas Horiba system designed by EPS for the EPA. Got it at a govt. surplus sale. Fixed it up about 4 years ago and got it running.
I knew that tuning by O2's was not the way to go especially narrow band (switching). Junk.
I have seen many rides come in with the tune done by wrenchs with years and years of experience yet they were way out of tune.
I can now tune without the O2's even working. I could care less if they cut the wires on them and left them hanging.
Response time runs about 2.6. It really depends on your stack flow and ambients.

[strokerjlk]

5 gas Horiba system designed by EPS for the EPA. Got it at a govt. surplus sale. Fixed it up about 4 years ago and got it running.
I knew that tuning by O2's was not the way to go especially narrow band (switching). Junk.
I have seen many rides come in with the tune done by wrenchs with years and years of experience yet they were way out of tune.
I can now tune without the O2's even working. I could care less if they cut the wires on them and left them hanging.
Response time runs about 2.6. It really depends on your stack flow and ambients.

Thanks.
pretty quick, really quick actually.
nice find.
I can only hope for such a deal.
years and years of experience dont always mean anything,judging from some of the tunes I have seen also.

[FLTRI]

I knew that tuning by O2's was not the way to go especially narrow band (switching). Junk.

Response time runs about 2.6.

Is that 2.6 seconds? If so how do you tune a WOT acceleration run?

Here's what it takes to properly tune a bike:
http://www.horiba.com/us/en/automotive-test-systems/products/emission-measurement-systems/analytical-systems/standard-emissions/details/mexa-7000-version-3-930/
Without it you may as well use a screwdriver and a hammer.
Bob

[Rider57]

2.6 with a 5 meter stack. Typically I use a 2 meter stack and 1650 cfm cvs flow.
I dont ride WOT so I dont tune it. I tune 2100 to 4400.
The end result is 25 mph to 85 mph in 4.2 seconds. Pleanty to pass someone when I need to.
Dont get this wrong, TTS and just about all the other softwares available do the job they were designed for and they do it well if you , if you dont, dont whine. More than that is the understanding of the system. You have to know it to the point of almost dreaming about it in your sleep.
Dont expect anything out of the box to do everything for you. That doohicky has not been invented yet.

[sportygordy]

Mayor,
Most of the dealers with dynos highly recommend TTS over SEST simply because the TTS works as advertised and the SEST doesn't. However, if the dealer doesn't have to work with the SEST (dyno tune) they will sell it over anything else.

yea, the other interesting thing for me to note is my local dealer that sells TTS.....charges less to tune with it than SEST.     ....although, that could be based on how comfortable the tuners are using TTS since they have probably had much more training with TTS than SEST. 

To support what Jim said earlier though-  I think of the 4 dealers with dyno's with in 90 miles from my house, there's only the one who has heard of, let alone used, TTS....and that's the above mentioned one.   

Interesting,, who is your dealer (s)   

[sportygordy]

Not a thing when it comes to the life of Broad Band sensors in an aftermarket application. Remember I've been the one that's had to work with them for over 20 years, what experience do you have?

Some of the info you add to these threads is valuable but personally I feel your 20 years experience would be more credible if you did not have anything to gain monetarily by repeatedly trying to point out the application shortcomings of the model of sensor that YOU do not use yet tell us nothing about the shortcomings of the sensors you depend on for your tuning system which as the case is are NOT being used for the intended application either. I feel your posts are biased and tainted for the above reason and should be discounted at some level because of this.

pretty much sums up my thoughts two years ago.. I often wondered if the Harley ECM was capable of using the widebands what we would be saying about them today.. My assumption, everyone would be saying the widebands are the bes thing since apple pie... And now that Revolution Performance has figured this out,,,(how to use widbands with current ECM)  in another year or so i suspect we going to see a complete different opinion.. Their's a new sheriff in town, just give it time.. 

[Steve Cole]

If people really stepped up to use a real Wide Bands things might be different but a Broad Band is a complete different story. As for giving it time that's fine but as long as the Broad bands are being used I would expect no different results than the Auto industry see's with them in aftermarket applications for the past 20 years, which by the way isn't so good.

[FLTRI]

If people really stepped up to use a real Wide Bands things might be different but a Broad Band is a complete different story. As for giving it time that's fine but as long as the Broad bands are being used I would expect no different results than the Auto industry see's with them in aftermarket applications for the past 20 years, which by the way isn't so good.

You mean to tell us the Harley motorcycle market isn't on the leading edge of closed loop EFI?
Here I thought we were the pioneers of this technology!

So you're gunna try to tell us the auto industry has known about and used broadband O2 sensors? They haven't had the same flawless success rate we've enjoyed with those sensors?

There must be a simple explanation for why endurance race teams do not leave broadband sensors installed during a race, especially when just a hair better mileage (as can be had with closed loop systems) can be the difference between winning and losing???
Bob

[mayor]

There must be a simple explanation for why endurance race teams do not leave broadband sensors installed during a race, especially when just a hair better mileage (as can be had with closed loop systems) can be the difference between winning and losing???

Murphy...there, is that simple enough.    

[FLTRI]

There must be a simple explanation for why endurance race teams do not leave broadband sensors installed during a race, especially when just a hair better mileage (as can be had with closed loop systems) can be the difference between winning and losing???

Murphy...there, is that simple enough.   

That guy is everywhere isn't he?  Is that why street vehicles have a "limp mode" to get it home?
Bob

[sportygordy]

If people really stepped up to use a real Wide Bands things might be different but a Broad Band is a complete different story. As for giving it time that's fine but as long as the Broad bands are being used I would expect no different results than the Auto industry see's with them in aftermarket applications for the past 20 years, which by the way isn't so good.

I put my violin in 'Auto Play' a few years ago... and haven't replaced a Bosch since   

[FLTRI]

I put my violin in 'Auto Play' a few years ago... and haven't replaced a Bosch since   

Gordy,
How do you monitor the O2 output signal for wander? Calibration gas?

IME these sensors rarely completely fail, they silently start wandering without alerting the tuner/rider.

You may see the signal wander/degradation if you do precise fuel mileage monitoring, but that is hard due to variables in the trips taken. IE: fuel mileage is easy if all monitoring is on the interstate @ steady state, but once off the slab and into town, mileage changes a bit skewing results.

Just interested in how auto-tuning guys monitor their broadband O2 health and accuracy,
Bob

[mayor]

Just interested in how auto-tuning guys monitor their broadband O2 health and accuracy

the same way most narrow band guys do...

[Don D]

Just interested in how auto-tuning guys monitor their broadband O2 health and accuracy

Put them on a predictive preemptive maintenance schedule

[FLTRI]

Put them on a predictive preemptive maintenance schedule

That is the way to address the situation. Every 10-15k miles replace the sensors especially if they are mounted close to the exhaust ports.
Bob

[Don D]

Well the interval will come to us as we look at trends. With all the visibility here on the internet guys are going to be riding all worried and taking them to shops to have them tested, I'm sure of it. Lots of those broad band sensors are on the road by now used on the PC AT, Tmax, DTT Wego, S&S VFI, so nothing new. We should see reports coming in soon.

[FLTRI]

Well the interval will come to us as we look at trends. With all the visibility here on the internet guys are going to be riding all worried and taking them to shops to have them tested. Sounds like a new niche market, LOL
Anecdotal data will come. The bike is a rolling boat so no issues, we will see what the proper interval is.

I think Harley had noticed very short lifespan (some failing under 10k miles) with the sensor mounted next to the exhaust port (06-08) and moved them downstream with heaters (09-up).
We've certainly replaced some under 10k. The best thing about v-tune is it identifies O2 sensor issues right away.
Bob
PS - corrected your spelling for ya.

[sportygordy]

I put my violin in 'Auto Play' a few years ago... and haven't replaced a Bosch since   

Gordy,
How do you monitor the O2 output signal for wander? Calibration gas?

IME these sensors rarely completely fail, they silently start wandering without alerting the tuner/rider.

You may see the signal wander/degradation if you do precise fuel mileage monitoring, but that is hard due to variables in the trips taken. IE: fuel mileage is easy if all monitoring is on the interstate @ steady state, but once off the slab and into town, mileage changes a bit skewing results.

Just interested in how auto-tuning guys monitor their broadband O2 health and accuracy,
Bob

The routine is simple,, you just follow instructions ...  in my case, DTT spells it out  clearly.. and im sure TM does just as well. Life couldn't be any better, my cycles run damn good and they always will,,, no need for me to buy into the TTS. I've been a happy camper with my Bosch set up for 10  years plus and always will.  And the new Revolution Performance EMS system is getting me really excited, i like the idea of plug and ride. No worries for a tuner, just go... And since hands on experience with the Bosch sensors have proven to be just as reliable as the NB's,, I'm simply not worried.. PERIOD !!!

[FLTRI]

Sporty,
WOW! Glad to hear you are happy estatic with your DDT system. We don't hear that often.
Let us know when you replace your DDT system with the EMS system and what you notice in the running behavior differences between the 2.
Since these are very different systems it is more than likely 1 of the 2 will provide a better running bike?
Thanks for your input and sharing your experiences.
Bob
PS - Mind sharing your O2 monitoring procedure and frequency?

[sportygordy]

Sporty,
WOW! Glad to hear you are happy estatic with your DDT system. We don't hear that often.
Let us know when you replace your DDT system with the EMS system and what you notice in the running behavior differences between the 2.
Since these are very different systems it is more than likely 1 of the 2 will provide a better running bike?
Thanks for your input and sharing your experiences.
Bob
PS - Mind sharing your O2 monitoring procedure and frequency?

Hey Bob,,, I already shared my replacement frequency based on my experience... and 02 monitoring procedure??? i know where your going with this,,, and this is the reason i put the violin in auto-play years ago.. And what I have found interesting over the last two years is how your opinion of Widebands changes when you are on the other end of the few hundred dollar bills.. And that's based on hands on experience too..   

[FLTRI]

PS - Mind sharing your O2 monitoring procedure and frequency?

Hey Bob,,, I already shared my replacement frequency (MONITORING FREQUENCY NOT REPLACEMENT) based on my experience... and 02 monitoring procedure??? i know where your going with this,,,() and this is the reason i put the violin in auto-play years ago.. And what I have found interesting over the last two years is how your opinion of Widebands changes when you are on the other end of the few hundred dollar bills.. And that's based on hands on experience too..   
[/quote]
Everyone who is this business knows there is a learning curve that, IMO, never ends.
From my own experiences with these sensors they work fine in the right environment, but wander prematurely when placed in these HD primary pipes right next to the exhaust port, so IMO if you run these sensors you need to monitor them for accutracy, not so much if they are dead or alive as normally found with switching sensors.

How do I know this???

Well when the 06 Dyna came out and subsequently, the rest of the line, the first thing most tuners thought was that by removing the switching sensors and replacing them with broadbands we would get much better signalling.
While tuning with the sensors mounted in the pipe next to the exhaust port we started to notice the sensor life (proper reading) degraded much sooner than when mounted in the pump...as monitored with calibration gas.

Hell we can get up to 6mo 300-500 tunes (closely monitored with cal gas) from a sensor in the Dynojet pump whereas I was replacing them like crazy after only a few tunes with them in the pipes.

Not quite sure what you meant by: "when you are on the other end of the few hundred dollar bills.. And that's based on hands on experience too" 
Mad at me for something I said? For asking when you check your sensors for wander?

The statements I have made are simply my opinion based on my experience using these broadbands to tune with for just over 15 years in the HD tuning arena and about 8 years prior to that at track tuning in the endurance road racing arena.

Not in any way trying to minimize your exuberance with autotune systems and your personal experiences, just asking what and how you assure the system is providing the AFR as you've targeted. The only way I know of is to check the sensors with calibration gas that is readily available from Dynojet. They offer it to check the broadbands for wander.

It seems you are second guessing my intentions here. Please do not, as the internet doesn't do justice to the intent of ones statements. Maybe you are being kind to me for offering my opinion however it seems you are more interested in personally insulting me in public forum. Why?
Bob

Bob
Again, how do you monitor your sensors for wander, and what method do you use?

[blusmbl]

I knew that tuning by O2's was not the way to go especially narrow band (switching). Junk.

Response time runs about 2.6.

Is that 2.6 seconds? If so how do you tune a WOT acceleration run?

Here's what it takes to properly tune a bike:
http://www.horiba.com/us/en/automotive-test-systems/products/emission-measurement-systems/analytical-systems/standard-emissions/details/mexa-7000-version-3-930/
Without it you may as well use a screwdriver and a hammer.
Bob

Those Horibas are only as good as the techs servicing them.  I work in labs that have 40+ CVS analyzers, and you'll run into issues with them on average of once a week.  We've also learned to take modal data with a grain of salt- too inconsistent, especially from one unit to another.

We use the expensive Horiba Mexa-700's for in-vehicle development, they're something like $5k just for an a/f meter.  The sensor alone is $500, and we will lose multiple sensors per year.  They're all junk unless your sensor comes with a calibration sheet.

-Nick

[FLTRI]

I knew that tuning by O2's was not the way to go especially narrow band (switching). Junk.

Response time runs about 2.6.

Is that 2.6 seconds? If so how do you tune a WOT acceleration run?

Here's what it takes to properly tune a bike:
http://www.horiba.com/us/en/automotive-test-systems/products/emission-measurement-systems/analytical-systems/standard-emissions/details/mexa-7000-version-3-930/
Without it you may as well use a screwdriver and a hammer.
Bob

Those Horibas are only as good as the techs servicing them.  I work in labs that have 40+ CVS analyzers, and you'll run into issues with them on average of once a week.  We've also learned to take modal data with a grain of salt- too inconsistent, especially from one unit to another.

We use the expensive Horiba Mexa-700's for in-vehicle development, they're something like $5k just for an a/f meter.  The sensor alone is $500, and we will lose multiple sensors per year.  They're all junk unless your sensor comes with a calibration sheet.

-Nick

Good and accurate info, thanks.
I believe this statement:

They're all junk unless your sensor comes with a calibration sheet.

is a little over the top. I believe "junk" is not really an accurate assessment of these sensors.
I see far more "junk" operators than "junk" sensors.
Bob

[blusmbl]

Agree, was slightly over the top.  Honestly for the level of accuracy everybody is striving for it really isn't that huge of a deal, and if I didn't have access a gold-plated Horiba I'd buy an LM1.  It's close enough.  For OEM stuff that uses an air meter, you're lucky to get +/- 3% accuracy over all temp ranges compared to the volumetric efficiency calculation anyway!
-Nick

[FLTRI]

Agree, was slightly over the top.  Honestly for the level of accuracy everybody is striving for it really isn't that huge of a deal, and if I didn't have access a gold-plated Horiba I'd buy an LM1.  It's close enough.  For OEM stuff that uses an air meter, you're lucky to get +/- 3% accuracy over all temp ranges compared to the volumetric efficiency calculation anyway!
-Nick

Yep, we strive for great running bikes without the incredible expense to get more accurate.
Bob

[Rider57]

I knew that tuning by O2's was not the way to go especially narrow band (switching). Junk.

Response time runs about 2.6.

Is that 2.6 seconds? If so how do you tune a WOT acceleration run?

Here's what it takes to properly tune a bike:
http://www.horiba.com/us/en/automotive-test-systems/products/emission-measurement-systems/analytical-systems/standard-emissions/details/mexa-7000-version-3-930/
Without it you may as well use a screwdriver and a hammer.
Bob

Those Horibas are only as good as the techs servicing them.  I work in labs that have 40+ CVS analyzers, and you'll run into issues with them on average of once a week.  We've also learned to take modal data with a grain of salt- too inconsistent, especially from one unit to another.

We use the expensive Horiba Mexa-700's for in-vehicle development, they're something like $5k just for an a/f meter.  The sensor alone is $500, and we will lose multiple sensors per year.  They're all junk unless your sensor comes with a calibration sheet.

-Nick

I have been working with Horibas for many years and, yes weekly calibrations are manditory as well as 2 point and 3 point gas checks. As it stands now, this system is EPA ready and has yet to fail any audit.
This FID oven is a costly replacement item, $3400 was the quote last week.

[harley66]

 

I installed the O2 sensor on 2005 Dyna.
J "I read, a break-in period (6000 kms) is required to have 100% AFR values ​​on the tables. SondesO2 The new offer of 50%.

What do you think

Thank you for your answers      -translate Google-