O2 sensors differences, pros and cons

[Jamie Long]

It is most important to note that the % of error due to pressure is applied to the the sensor current NOT lambda.

Some info from Daytona Sensors on this......

"The Bosch LSU 4 wide-band sensor is affected by exhaust pressure as shown on the graph below. The error (%) applies to the oxygen pump cell current. Note that 1 bar corresponds to normal sea level atmospheric pressure. For most performance applications, excessive exhaust back pressure is not a concern and the resulting small error can be disregarded. At high elevations, the error is also relatively small. At 10,000 feet elevation (about .68 bar), AFR values near 13.0 will be shifted up approximately +0.15 AFR."

[TXP]

Isn't it interesting that the three biggest names in the Harley-Davidson tuning industry, the MoCo itself with SESPT, TTS with Mastertune, and now Dynojet Research with its new Powervision are all using the stock NB02 sensors for feedback instead of replacing them with the LSU4.2  Doesn't it stand to reason these three at least agree on which sensor works best in this application. No doubt that these companies could use any sensor set up they want,,,,I think they use the stock sensor based on better feedback and long term reliability,,,not just because "thats whats there". If the AT 100 was better, why would Dynojet make such an investment in Powervision?   

[whittlebeast]

My stock exhaust Sporty gets about 2 PSI average back pressure measured at the o2 sensor at 6000 RPM.

AW

[mayor]

Isn't it interesting that the three biggest names in the Harley-Davidson tuning industry, the MoCo itself with SESPT, TTS with Mastertune, and now Dynojet Research with its new Powervision are all using the stock NB02 sensors for feedback instead of replacing them with the LSU4.2  Doesn't it stand to reason these three at least agree on which sensor works best in this application. No doubt that these companies could use any sensor set up they want,,,,I think they use the stock sensor based on better feedback and long term reliability,,,not just because "thats whats there". If the AT 100 was better, why would Dynojet make such an investment in Powervision?   

I can't agree or disagree with your logic....but I will offer another possible alternative. It's possibly simply economics.  The factory o2 sensors are currently on a factory bike (hence the name factory), and the LSU4.2 sensors are $50 or more each retail.....so as a manufacturer, would you introduce a product that you knew you would have to have a retail price of at least $100 more to account for the sensors...or would you make do with what's already there?     not saying this is the case, but ...... consumers are generally price motivated. 

here's the thing I found interesting with a discusion on the board recently- Steve mentioned that the factory ECM have been wide band (or what ever we are supposed to call them) capable since 2005.  how should we read that? did an engineer at the factory consider that this might be an alternative to the current system?

[BVHOG]

For another example I had the chance last year to tour the S&S emmisons lab as part of a week of training there and they have a setup that is second to NONE.  When we did the two days on the dyno the company that had the means to use anything they wanted for emissions measurment a hop skip and jump across the street were using dual LM1 units with the cheap ass broad band sensors with the analog system wired into the dyno software. I feel if it's good enough for them then it's more than good enough for me.

So in the S&S Emissions lab where results have to be right there were NO LSU being used but where the results were not important they used Broad Bands. Seems to me thats a company using there heads and spending money  where it needs to be spent. This is the same reason we have them here to use. We know they are not accurate enough but they also cost 1/10th of the Wide Bands. Use the Broad band to get close then switch to the good ones for finish up.

They also use them (Broad Bands) in their VFI systems.

[strokerjlk]

Isn't it interesting that the three biggest names in the Harley-Davidson tuning industry, the MoCo itself with SESPT, TTS with Mastertune, and now Dynojet Research with its new Power Vision are all using the stock NB02 sensors for feedback instead of replacing them with the LSU4.2  Doesn't it stand to reason these three at least agree on which sensor works best in this application. No doubt that these companies could use any sensor set up they want,,,,I think they use the stock sensor based on better feedback and long term reliability,,,not just because "thats whats there". If the AT 100 was better, why would Dynojet make such an investment in Power Vision?   

well your right the MOCO is surely the biggest,they use narrow bands because they are cheap,and they only care about emissions. so the range they work in is fine for them.
dynojet research would hold a close second. and isnt the vision using both types of sensors

Auto Tune Basic which uses the nbO2 sensors to develop your tune, and Auto Tune Pro which uses the AT-100 module with dual Bosch Wideband sensors. 

TTS Mastertune is only as popular on a few forums. ( and we know why they use NB's.)
go out and talk to the majority of riders,on the street,rally, bike night etc. and see what they have,or have knowledge of as far as tuners.
num1 will be "racetuner"
num 2 will be power commander
num 3 will be V&H fuel pak.
9 out of 10 wont even know what your talking about when you mention TTS Mastertune.

as far as the cheap broad band and where it is used in automotive?
I have a cheap broad band in my cat on my pickup. 1996 198,000 miles. now I dont know what it does(it has started and runs flawless forever). the two bolts that hold it in place fell off about 30,000 miles ago, when I replaced the flange and nuts,I realized it was the cheap broadband in question here. (same as the ones I use on my dyno) so while I dont know exactly what it does or do I really care,as long as it runs right. what I find so humorous is ......if heat and vibration was so detrimental to these sensors,why is it still operating flawless after almost 200,000 miles.

[wolf_59]

If you have a properly tuned engine with the fuel that you would normally be using that is within +/-.1 of the ECM/ECU commanded afr is there or would there be a need to run the broad band sensors over the narrow band sensors? 

The biggest misconception is the assumption the fuel going into the bike is what is expected. What that means is there is a huge variation in the fuels from stations. Age alone degrades fuel quality. The mix of additives vary as well and change with time, temperature, etc.
The biggest advantage for lambda (closed loop) operation is to compensate for the wide variety of fuel quality which includes octane.
Bob

Agree and understand, but for the average Joe riding a 95" tw21 or 103" se 255 (closed loop) bike running average 91 octane 15% ethanol oxygenated fuel from his favorite high volume station with the above mentioned tune sets out on a cross country trip and somewhere along the way is forced by circumstance to get fuel from a different brand station that only sells 500 gals. a month what would be the chances that the narrow band sensors would not be able to compensate for the fuel

[1FSTRK]

I wonder if some companies chose to use the least expensive stock sensor on the market just to increase the profit they make on their tuning systems. After all most run in a competitive price range and some include two new more expensive broad band sensors, all the wiring, cables, and hardware.

[strokerjlk]

what would be the chances that the narrow band sensors would not be able to compensate for the fuel

what would be the chances they would? you ever test ride bone stock new harleys? the only ones I ever have that didnt ping were v rod and the XR 1200  sporster.

[Jamie Long]

Isn't it interesting that the three biggest names in the Harley-Davidson tuning industry, the MoCo itself with SESPT, TTS with Mastertune, and now Dynojet Research with its new Powervision are all using the stock NB02 sensors for feedback instead of replacing them with the LSU4.2  Doesn't it stand to reason these three at least agree on which sensor works best in this application. No doubt that these companies could use any sensor set up they want,,,,I think they use the stock sensor based on better feedback and long term reliability,,,not just because "thats whats there". If the AT 100 was better, why would Dynojet make such an investment in Powervision?   

The factory nb02 sensors work very well when used within their limitations. With the products you listed there are some very helpful tuning applications that have been developed that work very well, but in some applications there are simply shortcomings with the range the narrowband sensor samples in applications requiring a mixure other than near stoich, on the other hand nbO2 sensors work very well in applications where a near stoich mixture is required.

As you likely know you cannot simply replace the stock sensors with widebands as you need a WB controller and the proper control system in place. As for Dynojet, Power Vision actually uses the AT-100 with dual Bosch LSU sensors when you are using Auto Tune Pro, this will be their highest level tuning platform. While the stock sensors are very useful and very integrated into Power Vision, trust me no one at Dynojet is going to tell you narrowband sensors are more accurate or better than widebands

[BVHOG]

Let's all be honest here and admit if not for the EPA we would not have ever seen the 02 sensors used on these bikes, they have NOT produced a better running more desirable stock bike (heat complaints etc),they cost the moco money for the sensors, software, cal development and a more costly exhaust (cats). It's not about these sensors being some godsend for differing fuels or any other reason, they are there because the moco was forced to make changes to keep the traditional looking air cooled engine meet epa guidlines and still be attractive to the average consumer.

[BVHOG]

It is most important to note that the % of error due to pressure is applied to the the sensor current NOT lambda.

Some info from Daytona Sensors on this......

"The Bosch LSU 4 wide-band sensor is affected by exhaust pressure as shown on the graph below. The error (%) applies to the oxygen pump cell current. Note that 1 bar corresponds to normal sea level atmospheric pressure. For most performance applications, excessive exhaust back pressure is not a concern and the resulting small error can be disregarded. At high elevations, the error is also relatively small. At 10,000 feet elevation (about .68 bar), AFR values near 13.0 will be shifted up approximately +0.15 AFR."

I feel that for anyone reading this thread this post brings forth some very important information, in the past, we have been lead to believe by others that the percentage of change was a direct percentage of afr, from this info you can see that thinking was flawed, either on purpose to discredit the broadband sensors or simply not understanding the forumulas they were reading, I think Jamie's post makes it pretty easy to understand.

[Steve Cole]

Jamie

Why is it that that graph and statement does not match what Bosch says it will do? If I had to believe someone I think I will go with the manufacture of the sensor over someone else. I think that if people were to put a good pressure gauge on and monitor the HD exhaust pressure rise and fall you would be quiet surprised to see not only the total pressure but the highs and lows throughout the operating range. Average pressure is useless and as the build changes so does the pressure and temperature the exhaust operates in. You have to be able to read the exhaust pressure at the same rate as the sensor is read and this is typically once every 150 - 200 ms. The graph represents absolute pressure not just measured pressure. You need three readings to correct the sensor output, temperature, absolute pressure and the sensor reading and they must all be taken at the same time to make the corrections. Please show us where that is being done in the HD aftermarket. Also you left out the issue of drift in the Broad Band sensor. Since you like to look at the Daytona Sensors unit how come they provide a free air adjustment in there unit and provide the procedure to calibrate prior to using it each time?

http://wbo2.com/lsu/Y258K01005e03mar21eng.pdf


1FSTRK

Do I think that Bosch was playing games with the names................. you bet I do, why else did they change it! I'm sure marketing had more to do with the changing of the names than engineering did and an OEM engineer already knows what the sensor is to be used for and what it will and will not do by the provided specification sheet.

As for a HD application that uses a Wide Band there are none but as long as people confuse the two sensors they have to be separated so they are not confused, again the damn name issue. So the argument has been that the Broad Band is more accurate than the Switching sensor and that's just wrong. Yes, the Broad Band reads a wider range than the Switching sensor but it is not more accurate and in many of the aftermarket applications it is much worse. Switching sensors do not drift like the Broad Bands do, so if you think your running at 14.4 and the drift of the Broad Band makes it really run at 14.9  or 13.9 is that OK? Drift in a Broad Band is real, it happens and that is just why they have a daily calibration procedure for them. Only issue is that to do it they must be in free air. So are you willing to remove the sensors, check the calibration, reinstall the sensors then go for a ride. Should it be done once a day, once a week, once a month I really do not know for sure but the manufacture says before each test. I can tell you that we adjust ours once each day when they are being used and I can tell you we write down the adjustment each time and how far they move so we know when it's time to replace them, before they fail.

Look these Broad Band sensors are a good tool when used as they should be, they are not a great tool nor even a good tool when NOT used as they should be. They will measure a wider range than a Switching sensor just not as accurately as a Switching sensor will in its range. If you think the range that they will measure, the drift and accuracy are good enough then so be it.


Mayor

The reason the Wide Band input is in place is simple. During engine development and calibration we use REAL WIDE BANDS. In 2005 it was nice not to have to use different pieces of equipment to get at the data. We can use the ECM to do everything we want all in one place. Just so everyone knows HD uses the equipment from ecm-co.com with real wide bands during development. We can also tune real time too in the dyno cell. So what is in the ECM is a left over from the development side of things, no reason to remove the code for it, it was never put there to be used in the field or in production based bikes.


strokerjlk

"TTS Mastertune is only as popular on a few forums. ( and we know why they use NB's.)
go out and talk to the majority of riders,on the street,rally, bike night etc. and see what they have,or have knowledge of as far as tuners.
num1 will be "racetuner"
num 2 will be power commander
num 3 will be V&H fuel pak.
9 out of 10 wont even know what your talking about when you mention TTS Mastertune. "

What world are you living in?

Let's see Race Tuner is the older version of Mastertune sold through HD from 2002 - 2008 so that gets us a few sales, Dynojet must being doing so great with HD Power Commander sales that they are spending all that money to make a version of what Mastertune does right after they just spent a ton of money making the PV-V for a HD, and our sales for Mastertune just keep increasing year after year.

[strokerjlk]

Let's see Race Tuner is the older version of Mastertune sold through HD from 2002 - 2008 so that gets us a few sales, Dynojet must being doing so great with HD Power Commander sales that they are spending all that money to make a version of what Mastertune does right after they just spent a ton of money making the PV-V for a HD, and our sales for Mastertune just keep increasing year after year

I know all about the SERT, save the explanation.
the ham and eggers refer to "racetuner" as anything the MOCO sold. SERT SESPT. half dont even know the diff. point is the MOCO will always have the MOST units sold,and be the MOST popular.
number two is PC.
the world I am living in is ...talking to riders everyday. the majority of the ham and eggers always ask ,can you tune my bike? do I need a "Racetuner" or power commander. I have never had anyone ask me if I could tune there bike with a TTS or mastertune,other than Forum members.
Congratulations on your sales going up. now if it still had the SE badge on it then it would have major sales

[mayor]

go out and talk to the majority of riders,on the street,rally, bike night etc. and see what they have,or have knowledge of as far as tuners.
num1 will be "racetuner"
num 2 will be power commander
num 3 will be V&H fuel pak.
9 out of 10 wont even know what your talking about when you mention TTS Mastertune.

sorry, but the only thing this proves is who is getting the most from their marketing money.  with all due respect, I wouldn't make a purchase decision based on what the average fellow down the street at bike night thinks.   

hey Jim, my one local HD dealer not only sells TTS......but they recommend them over SEST.   wanna guess which dealer?    

[strokerjlk]

go out and talk to the majority of riders,on the street,rally, bike night etc. and see what they have,or have knowledge of as far as tuners.
num1 will be "racetuner"
num 2 will be power commander
num 3 will be V&H fuel pak.
9 out of 10 wont even know what your talking about when you mention TTS Mastertune.

sorry, but the only thing this proves is who is getting the most from their marketing money.  with all due respect, I wouldn't make a purchase decision based on what the average fellow down the street at bike night thinks.   

hey Jim, my one local HD dealer not only sells TTS......but they recommend them over SEST.   wanna guess which dealer?   

right wrong or indifferent. the fact is thats the majority of the Harley world.
I am not saying popularity means one is better. just dont agree on the previous top three ranking.
I wonder why  sells them LOL.at least they have a dyno. some of these dealers and indys are being told they dont even need one anymore to tune bike's .just take a class and ..have laptop will tune. 

[rbabos]

go out and talk to the majority of riders,on the street,rally, bike night etc. and see what they have,or have knowledge of as far as tuners.
num1 will be "racetuner"
num 2 will be power commander
num 3 will be V&H fuel pak.
9 out of 10 wont even know what your talking about when you mention TTS Mastertune.

sorry, but the only thing this proves is who is getting the most from their marketing money.  with all due respect, I wouldn't make a purchase decision based on what the average fellow down the street at bike night thinks.   

hey Jim, my one local HD dealer not only sells TTS......but they recommend them over SEST.   wanna guess which dealer?   

right wrong or indifferent. the fact is thats the majority of the Harley world.
I am not saying popularity means one is better. just dont agree on the previous top three ranking.
I wonder why  sells them LOL.at least they have a dyno. some of these dealers and indys are being told they dont even need one anymore to tune bike's .just take a class and ..have laptop will tune. 

Class, what class? Damn it, no wonder I had so much trouble.
Ron

[BVHOG]

Let's see Race Tuner is the older version of Mastertune sold through HD from 2002 - 2008 so that gets us a few sales, Dynojet must being doing so great with HD Power Commander sales that they are spending all that money to make a version of what Mastertune does right after they just spent a ton of money making the PV-V for a HD, and our sales for Mastertune just keep increasing year after year

I know all about the SERT, save the explanation.
the ham and eggers refer to "racetuner" as anything the MOCO sold. SERT SESPT. half dont even know the diff. point is the MOCO will always have the MOST units sold,and be the MOST popular.
number two is PC.
the world I am living in is ...talking to riders everyday. the majority of the ham and eggers always ask ,can you tune my bike? do I need a "Racetuner" or power commander. I have never had anyone ask me if I could tune there bike with a TTS or mastertune,other than Forum members.
Congratulations on your sales going up. now if it still had the SE badge on it then it would have major sales

What do you mean if? Ever hold one (TTS) up to the light and notice what's beneath the TTS sticker?

[Jamie Long]

More O2 sensor info directly from Bosch.........     

"Standard narrow band type Oxygen Sensors operate between 0 and 1 volts, and are only capable of accurately measuring a stoichiometric air/fuel ratio (e.g. 14.7:1). A richer or leaner condition results in an abrupt voltage change and is only useful for qualitative determination. Modern automobiles use "switch" like sensing at idle and part throttle to make small compensations in fuel delivery to keep the air/fuel ratio near 14.7:1"
Source: http://www.boschautoparts.com/OxygenSensors/Pages/PremiumOxygenSensors.aspx

"Bosch Wideband Air/Fuel ratio sensors utilize a more sophisticated sensing element that enables them to produce a precise output in proportion to the air/fuel ratio. As a result, a wideband A/F sensor measures exhaust gas oxygen accurately from as rich as 9.0:1 to as lean as free air. The use of the Wideband A/F sensors is growing rapidly as original equipment in vehicles and in high-performance specialty markets"[/i]
Source: http://www.boschautoparts.com/OxygenSensors/Pages/WidebandOxygenSensors.aspx


From Bosch Motorsports on their own MS3.1 Race Engine Management system which uses the "cheap" LSU 4.2 sensor........

"MS 3.1's control functions are state of the art and proven in GT 3 and Formula 3. Physically
based structure and ambient conditions corrections reduce the need for trackside tuning
during the event to a minimum. Closed loop Lambda control using the latest Bosch wide
band Lambda sensor is included"[/i]

Source: http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content/downloads/FIA_Formel3/F3Catalog_2008.pdf

While the LSU 4.2 may not deliver absolute perfect sampling under all conditions, the Delphi ECM itself in most cases is not capable of delivering a perfect mixture in all conditions. For a moment lets just think about the thousands and thousands using these sensors and all of the companies supporting them, if they are all using them outside of their limitations we better tell them because at the end of the day it all comes down to the fact there are guys all over the world using Wideband sensors to tune the hell out of anything they can make run with a spark plug and fuel. 

[FLTRI]

...what I find so humorous is ......if heat and vibration was so detrimental to these sensors,why is it still operating flawless after almost 200,000 miles.

Flawless? Ya sure? Do you know how much that sensor has degraded over the 200,000 miles, years, not to mention fuel additive package differences?

I'd replace it just for shits and giggles just to see if the mileage doesn't improve a bit.
Bob

[FLTRI]

Jamie,
"MS 3.1's control functions are state of the art and proven in GT 3 and Formula 3. Physically
based structure and ambient conditions corrections reduce the need for trackside tuning
during the event to a minimum. ..."

As I mentioned, they use the sensors to tune the system...then pull them for the race.
HTH,
Bob

[wolf_59]

what would be the chances that the narrow band sensors would not be able to compensate for the fuel

what would be the chances they would? you ever test ride bone stock new harleys? the only ones I ever have that didnt ping were v rod and the XR 1200  sporster.

Yes sir I have, but my question was " a properly tuned to within +/- .1 of commanded afr "

[1FSTRK]

So far this has been an informative discussion. It seems that both sensors are:
Good at the job they were designed to do.
Used by the OEM for years.
Proven reliable in OEM installations.

It seems to me that somewhere back at the beginning of my education on this subject I was misdirected. Early in the discussions in other threads it was repeatedly stated that the problem with any tuning system that uses broad band sensors is the sensors. They were portrayed as cheap, inaccurate, and unreliable. That is just not what I am seeing from the evidence here. It is unfortunate that this took place because it has added confusion, and wasted time.

It seems clear to me the attack on the broad band sensor was really a misdirected attack on with how these tuning systems are using the sensor. I do not know if it was felt that it would be better to find fault with a purchased component of the system rather than the systems design, at this point it really does not matter.

Without picking a side this comes down to one side having issue with the design of the other side’s product.

We could have gotten to this point a lot faster without all the confusion. The information here on the two sensors should be vital in deciding which type of tuning system we choose, but in the end we will be choosing between the systems and their designs and not the sensors themselves.

[strokerjlk]

what would be the chances that the narrow band sensors would not be able to compensate for the fuel

what would be the chances they would? you ever test ride bone stock new harleys? the only ones I ever have that didnt ping were v rod and the XR 1200  sporster.

Yes sir I have, but my question was " a properly tuned to within +/- .1 of commanded afr "

Agree and understand, but for the average Joe riding a 95" tw21 or 103" se 255 (closed loop) bike running average 91 octane 15% ethanol oxygenated fuel from his favorite high volume station with the above mentioned tune sets out on a cross country trip and somewhere along the way is forced by circumstance to get fuel from a different brand station that only sells 500 gals. a month what would be the chances that the narrow band sensors would not be able to compensate for the fuel

I dont know a % but not all could/do. it sounds nice ,and I wish it worked as good as it sounds,but in the real world of cross country cruising it dosent. and it is only getting worse

[Don D]

1FSTRK I like what you are saying and the logic.

I find there is more personal sanity in delegating. Let the professionals choose the tuning device, the guy that will tune my bike and trust he will provide the solution. Sensors, well if I have to carry a wrench and a sensor or two so be it. I would not want to be changing those like we did in the old days like spark plugs. That is not the case however with either of the sensors presented. Once again I follow the tuners lead there and make a tuning decision and trust the tuner to choose robust hardware that is maintainable.

I came to the realization a long time ago that I was the warranty agent for my bike and it is in essence a rolling boat. Any talk of fuel mileage in the context of saving money is a joke, same with a lot of the bantering related to cost. There is a way to get these bikes to run well without breaking the bank, but that said it was easier and less expensive 7-10 years ago. People have forgotten carbs for the most part and they were a picture of simplicity but for performance very reliable and could scale right up the line with performance changes. EFI is good too but the complexity opens a door to fewer achieving success with their performance goals. As time moves on I see this changing. The market will fill the need.

We can talk the intricacies of these products and the inner workings till the cows come home...but the bottom line is how do we modify the motorcycle for the improved throttle response, lower heat, and OEM or better longevity and reliability? If the product works as part of a system (this system involves people too not just parts like the tuner and head porter) to accomplish that goal then the guys I talk to every day are happy. The racing and dyno numbers guys are the minority. The stock bikes are hot and slow and sluggish from the factory, most just want punch (torque) and then get lulled into thinking they need 100tq by 2k rpm and 1.1+ hp / cu in.  Many get that and either say they didn't need that and then there are the few that want more, a personal desire for more probably exhibited in a lot of aspects of their life. JMHO