Picking base cal for TTS.

[hrdtail78]

I can see the avantages of having the right cam events in place, but at one time the PCIII was the big rage.  No matter what cam was acually installed the base map was for the stock cam.  When picking a base cal for the cam installed with TTS I consider the intake vavle closing important.  Maybe the most important.  Having a base for every cam is ideal but not what I have to work with.  I have heard tuners state that they can check several different base cals quickly to choose thier starting one.  How are you guys doing this?  TIA.

[WVULTRA]

hrdtail78:

I've also read/been advised to start with a TTS base cal that includes a cam closest to what I'm using.  And as you stated, look at the intake closing as a start; but don't let the intake closing be the only consideration for your choice.  Look at Intake and Exhaust events.

When I did the 107", the closest cal file to my cam was in the NO176 map.  However, the bike just didn't like this cal!  Ended up using the PC176 cal which would have been my 2nd choice.  But the bike liked that map!

In some instances, I've experienced a good or bad cal file by simply loading the map in a bike at operating temp and listening to how the bike idled and responded to slight throttle input without even riding for data collection.

With that said, I'm thinking that the experienced tuners will have enough knowledge based on previous tunes to choose a map that benefits the build vs dealing with a lot of trial and error testing various cal files.  I also feel that there are some cal files that actually received extensive testing while there are other, similar files that were extrapolated from actual test data.  But again, that's just a hunch. 

I agree, a function of the software to choose a starting base cal would be nice; but given all the variables with all the different build possibilities along with the simple variances from exact builds using the same components, this function might not be possible.

[1FSTRK]

Some back ground from steve
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28890.50.html#lastPost

[1FSTRK]

 
Good explanation guys
This is a tried and true method and is basically the only way to get around a lack of maps.

[WVULTRA]

WVULTRA,

Thanks for the input.  I do have my cals I like to use with the majority of the things I tune.  Simple stage 1 or 2's I have seen enough to know what works with what.  It's the out of the box builds I see from time to time that leaves me scratching my head.

I didn't know if there was somethings tuners did after they loaded a base cal to see if it was decent for the build.  Is there a certain RPM they check first before moving on.....  Something they review in data logging.  Kind of like checking max VE's in the usual high areas and setting displacement before moving on and calibrating the whole table.

hrdtail78:

You sure offer up several good points about where to start; and I'm guessing the seasoned tuners here all have developed ways of quickly checking a cal file to see if it's a good starting point.  Now is this something an operator wants to share on a open forum where one might be quickly chastised?

I've been fortunate enough to actually hear from some very experienced tuners; and it seems they all have unique ways of developing a great running bike.  IMO, the type of equipment and tuning tools the tuner are trained/experienced in can have the greatest outcome on how well a tune we end up with. 

One thing that I hear very little discussion about is Timing?  I've seen posts with lots of participation stating "timing is everything" yet it doesn't get discussed a lot within the TTS camp.  And maybe it's only applicable for those looking for that last couple of hp/tq.   

Hopefully some of the talent we have here on the forum will chime in with some learning tools for those of us yearning for more..........

[hrdtail78]

That's what I was hoping. I do understand that most of the people that do have this info have came about it the old fashion way. Learning it, and there are a lot of ways to learn.

[strokerjlk]

I also feel that there are some cal files that actually received extensive testing while there are other, similar files that were extrapolated from actual test data.

Now is this something an operator wants to share on a open forum where one might be quickly chastised?

nope 
same thing goes for timing,how to work around TBW ETC.

I've been fortunate enough to actually hear from some very experienced tuners; and it seems they all have unique ways of developing a great running bike.  IMO, the type of equipment and tuning tools the tuner are trained/experienced in can have the greatest outcome on how well a tune we end up with. TC.

[rbabos]

So , what does one look for when testing different cals prior to to persuing the vtune sessions? I've learned the hard way the recommended cal can make a rookies life a living hell to tune. I tuned it but recently have randomly tried non listed cals for my build that seemed they would dial in a lot easier.What's the tell tale signs of the most hopefull candidates to start with?
Ron

[rbabos]

 
Ron

[FLTRI]

So , what does one look for when testing different cals prior to to persuing the vtune sessions? I've learned the hard way the recommended cal can make a rookies life a living hell to tune. I tuned it but recently have randomly tried non listed cals for my build that seemed they would dial in a lot easier.What's the tell tale signs of the most hopefull candidates to start with?
Ron

Ron,
Here's a quick test you can do to make another evaluation of the "recommended" calibration:
Use the "Copy multiple tables" feature with the cal you are using now that you feel is much better than the one you v-tuned originally.
Then call up a VIRGIN calibration for the one you say didn't work well, and "Paste multiple tables",
all of them.

Then change the VIRGIN cal to match the constants ie: engine size, injector size, etc to match the calibration you like.
Then flash this newly, built calibration to your bike and take it for a ride. Even a v-tune would be interesting to compare to the stuff you did way back originally.

Since a "recommended" cal has stuff calibrated in the background for your build size, injectors, etc you may find there was an issue that got into the original cal you v-tuned to death and a fresh one with all the proper numbers inserted may just be even better than the non-listed cal you are running now.
Worth a shot IMO,
Bob
PS - If you save the present cal from the bike you can very easily flash it right back in if you find you are still happier with the present cal.
Have you had it on a dyno to see if your AFR and SOP is right on?

[rbabos]

So , what does one look for when testing different cals prior to to persuing the vtune sessions? I've learned the hard way the recommended cal can make a rookies life a living hell to tune. I tuned it but recently have randomly tried non listed cals for my build that seemed they would dial in a lot easier.What's the tell tale signs of the most hopefull candidates to start with?
Ron

Ron,
Here's a quick test you can do to make another evaluation of the "recommended" calibration:
Use the "Copy multiple tables" feature with the cal you are using now that you feel is much better than the one you v-tuned originally.
Then call up a VIRGIN calibration for the one you say didn't work well, and "Paste multiple tables",
all of them.

Then change the VIRGIN cal to match the constants ie: engine size, injector size, etc to match the calibration you like.
Then flash this newly, built calibration to your bike and take it for a ride. Even a v-tune would be interesting to compare to the stuff you did way back originally.

Since a "recommended" cal has stuff calibrated in the background for your build size, injectors, etc you may find there was an issue that got into the original cal you v-tuned to death and a fresh one with all the proper numbers inserted may just be even better than the non-listed cal you are running now.
Worth a shot IMO,
Bob
PS - If you save the present cal from the bike you can very easily flash it right back in if you find you are still happier with the present cal.
Have you had it on a dyno to see if your AFR and SOP is right on?

Interesting, but really doesn't answer the actual question. I'm sure you have a few cals set aside for different builds. Say , for example you try a couple prior to going for a full tune. What kind of effect or data are you looking for before chosing that one particular calibration over the the others that might also work?
Ron

[FLTRI]

I checked with Steve. He looked at the 2 cals and noted very little, I mean VERY little differences between the 2. Certainly not enough that would NORMALLY cause huge running issues that would cause it to be a "living hell" to tune.
This is why I made the suggestion to try the original again BUT start with a virgin so if there is something in the modded cal that caused issues, it won't affect the new one.
Bob

[rbabos]

I checked with Steve. He looked at the 2 cals and noted very little, I mean VERY little differences between the 2. Certainly not enough that would NORMALLY cause huge running issues that would cause it to be a "living hell" to tune.
This is why I made the suggestion to try the original again BUT start with a virgin so if there is something in the modded cal that caused issues, it won't affect the new one.
Bob

No difference between NI176 and PS176. I see big differences.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

Ron,

I would pick a base cal. that allows the MAP to be in an average range.  Then I would do the cut and paste.  When I first load a cal. this is one thing I do check.  I dont always trust idle smoothess.  It might just be the VE's are real close.  I don't know all the behind the scene stuff going on in the ECM.  But I do believe that cam timing is linked to when MAP is sampled.

What Steve might be looking at, is stuff behind the scenes.  VE's being different isn't going to cause it to be a "living hell" to tune.

[rbabos]

Ron,

I would pick a base cal. that allows the MAP to be in an average range.  Then I would do the cut and paste.  When I first load a cal. this is one thing I do check.  I dont always trust idle smoothess.  It might just be the VE's are real close.  I don't know all the behind the scene stuff going on in the ECM.  But I do believe that cam timing is linked to when MAP is sampled.

What Steve might be looking at, is stuff behind the scenes.  VE's being different isn't going to cause it to be a "living hell" to tune.

Different cam spec, exhaust, iac is what jumped out at me.
The MAP caught my eye instantly on the datamaster, which is why I pursued this cal. Jumped from 29 on the NI to 35-36 on the PS. Tuning the low kpa NI was a bitch since some of the areas I ran at were below 26kpa. The PS cal was always in vtune range.
Next dumb question.
If one copies a table from one cal to the other will the calibration function exactly the same with identical entries, or does it effect the behind the scenes somewhat?
Ron

[hrdtail78]

I was told to be careful about cutting and pasting for that reason. We were talking timing though.  It doesn't say anything about it in anything I have read written by TTS, and I have had tuners I respect recommend it to me and on open forums to others.

edit: grammer

[FLTRI]

Different cam spec, exhaust, iac is what jumped out at me.
The MAP caught my eye instantly on the datamaster, which is why I pursued this cal. Jumped from 29 on the NI to 35-36 on the PS. Tuning the low kpa NI was a bitch since some of the areas I ran at were below 26kpa. The PS cal was always in vtune range.
Next dumb question.
If one copies a table from one cal to the other will the calibration function exactly the same with identical entries, or does it effect the behind the scenes somewhat?
Ron

Sorry Ron I was referring to the behind the scenes stuff being very close, not listed spec for the tune or table values.
Bob

[rbabos]

I was told to be careful about cutting and pasting for that reason. Were talking timing  It doesn't say anything about it in anything I have read written by TTS, and I have had tuners I respect recommend to me and on open forums.

Let's use one example in my situation .The PS cal ran ok with the exception of iac points, warumup table and cranking fuel need attention. I manually edited the values (no cut and paste) to where it ran reasonable but weather shut me down before finalizing the whole thing.  Since the NI seems dead nuts on these settings should I copy and paste what's in each of these tables over to the PS cal tables or copy the tables themselves over from NI to PS?
I was under the impression that a table is a table and only the values within are the only thing of importance. Is this correct or are there other things within tables I can't see that can effect how the ecm behaves.
Given that, where did all the extra kpa come from, other than how the ecm reads the tables?
Ron

[wurk_truk]

Different cam spec, exhaust, iac is what jumped out at me.
The MAP caught my eye instantly on the datamaster, which is why I pursued this cal. Jumped from 29 on the NI to 35-36 on the PS. Tuning the low kpa NI was a bitch since some of the areas I ran at were below 26kpa. The PS cal was always in vtune range.
Next dumb question.
If one copies a table from one cal to the other will the calibration function exactly the same with identical entries, or does it effect the behind the scenes somewhat?
Ron

Sorry Ron I was referring to the behind the scenes stuff being very close, not listed spec for the tune or table values.
Bob

And how do YOU have the 'behind the scenes' stuff....  and we don't?  Have you been supplied with more Mastertune info than we have... the folks that pay?  Curious.....

[hrdtail78]

And how do YOU have the 'behind the scenes' stuff....  and we don't?  Have you been supplied with more Mastertune info than we have... the folks that pay?  Curious.....

I checked with Steve.

[staysick01]

I personally found that with both Harley and TTS, I always look for about 3 base maps that closely resemble the configuration of the bike. Usually only 1 is spec'd, though I have also found that starting with a base map that may be spec'd for a specific configuration yields lower results as say a "dumbed" up spec. Therefore I always have a plan A, B, and C. Once I find the map that works best, has best curves, and best AFV at different speeds and RPM's, I then begin to "Tune" the bike. And there have been times when the map TTS or Harley suggests are so way off, that, I will create a map from scratch.

[wurk_truk]

That is simply not right.  If there is info to help pick a tune, it should be made public or available to paying customers....  not calling Steve.  And to staysick...  one can NOT make a new base map.  Even if all VEs etc are changed... the underlying base maps have hidden differences.  It's THESE differences that should be published, so that one could compare the different tunes further.

Bob should have stayed quiet OR let us mere mortals know whats up.  Talk about pure BS!!!!

[FLTRI]

...the recommended cal can make a rookies life a living hell to tune..../quote]
Ron,
Here's a quick test you can do to make another evaluation of the "recommended" calibration:
Use the "Copy multiple tables" feature with the cal you are using now that you feel is much better than the one you v-tuned originally.
Then call up a VIRGIN calibration for the one you say didn't work well, and "Paste multiple tables",
all of them.

Then change the VIRGIN cal to match the constants ie: engine size, injector size, etc to match the calibration you like.
Then flash this newly, built calibration to your bike and take it for a ride. Even a v-tune would be interesting to compare to the stuff you did way back originally.

Since a "recommended" cal has stuff calibrated in the background for your build size, injectors, etc you may find there was an issue that got into the original cal you v-tuned... a fresh one with all the proper numbers inserted may just be even better than the non-listed cal you are running now.
PS - If you save the present cal from the bike you can very easily flash it right back in if you find you are still happier with the present cal.
Have you had it on a dyno to see if your AFR and SOP is right on?

I checked with Steve. He looked at the 2 cals and noted very little, I mean VERY little differences between the 2. Certainly not enough that would NORMALLY cause huge running issues that would cause it to be a "living hell" to tune.

That is simply not right.  If there is info to help pick a tune, it should be made public or available to paying customers....  not calling Steve.

Bob should have stayed quiet OR let us mere mortals know whats up.  Talk about pure BS!!!!

And you ask for help??? Steve has tried to help you, I've tried to help you, and others but the most you can do is ignore the instructions for how to get your answers and then insult us with your posts.
Bob

[rbabos]

I personally found that with both Harley and TTS, I always look for about 3 base maps that closely resemble the configuration of the bike. Usually only 1 is spec'd, though I have also found that starting with a base map that may be spec'd for a specific configuration yields lower results as say a "dumbed" up spec. Therefore I always have a plan A, B, and C. Once I find the map that works best, has best curves, and best AFV at different speeds and RPM's, I then begin to "Tune" the bike. And there have been times when the map TTS or Harley suggests are so way off, that, I will create a map from scratch.

By now I've reasoned out that's about how it goes with some builds. The closest cals for my build are only close enough to get you to the pro tuner, which none exist in my area. Fortunately I was stubborn enough to keep at it with trial and error and got real advice from a couple of tuners when I got stuck with a problem area to fix. Since my calibration resembles nothing like the canned state, I guess you could say it is in a customized state now.  
Ron

[rbabos]

...the recommended cal can make a rookies life a living hell to tune..../quote]
Ron,
Here's a quick test you can do to make another evaluation of the "recommended" calibration:
Use the "Copy multiple tables" feature with the cal you are using now that you feel is much better than the one you v-tuned originally.
Then call up a VIRGIN calibration for the one you say didn't work well, and "Paste multiple tables",
all of them.

Then change the VIRGIN cal to match the constants ie: engine size, injector size, etc to match the calibration you like.
Then flash this newly, built calibration to your bike and take it for a ride. Even a v-tune would be interesting to compare to the stuff you did way back originally.

Since a "recommended" cal has stuff calibrated in the background for your build size, injectors, etc you may find there was an issue that got into the original cal you v-tuned... a fresh one with all the proper numbers inserted may just be even better than the non-listed cal you are running now.
PS - If you save the present cal from the bike you can very easily flash it right back in if you find you are still happier with the present cal.
Have you had it on a dyno to see if your AFR and SOP is right on?

I checked with Steve. He looked at the 2 cals and noted very little, I mean VERY little differences between the 2. Certainly not enough that would NORMALLY cause huge running issues that would cause it to be a "living hell" to tune.

That is simply not right.  If there is info to help pick a tune, it should be made public or available to paying customers....  not calling Steve.

Bob should have stayed quiet OR let us mere mortals know whats up.  Talk about pure BS!!!!

And you ask for help??? Steve has tried to help you, I've tried to help you, and others but the most you can do is ignore the instructions for how to get your answers and then insult us with your posts.
Bob

Bob: Now that's funny. You and Steve let me pull my hair out for months on this stupid calibration .
Ron

[FLTRI]

...You and Steve let me pull my hair out for months on this stupid calibration .
Ron

Categorically NOT TRUE!!!
I asked for data several times to support your assumptions but you refused to record and provide the data needed.

You did send me a data log that did not support anything but low kpa due to deceleration.

Steve mentioned in posts he asked you to record and provide specific data according to his instructions but you chose to ignore those requests.

Again, just trying to help you to resolve your tuning issue(s),
Bob

[rbabos]

...You and Steve let me pull my hair out for months on this stupid calibration .
Ron

Categorically NOT TRUE!!!
I asked for data several times to support your assumptions but you refused to record and provide the data needed.

You did send me a data log that did not support anything but low kpa due to deceleration.

Steve mentioned in posts he asked you to record and provide specific data according to his instructions but you chose to ignore those requests.

Again, just trying to help you to resolve your tuning issue(s),
Bob

Bob: Let's get the facts straight. I did supply enough data to read the low kpa, light load areas showing the injector behaviour in this area. Why you failed to read this is beyond me. It was clearly constant state light load rpm. I pointed out that fact when the file was sent to determine if these light load areas of constant rpm , were in your view lean? Where you came up with the decel idea is beyond me. It actually runs at 19.5 kpa in light load steady state and if you had noticed the speedo, it was constant, not dropping in speed over a long period of time.
For what it's worth, yes this area was lean, so I upped the ve's , fattened the afr , relocated the iat, and threw the bitch into open loop, which I know drives you nuts. Oh well, deal with it.
Ron

[Steve Cole]

Ron

If you would like to get facts straight that would be great but I asked several times and you refused. You sent one piece of data and asked me to look at one part only and that's just what I did. You had already made your mind up and that was fine as I'm not going to keep going when you did not want to follow what I asked you to do. I will help just about anyone but when that person refuses to do as asked I stop responding as I did with you, as it was clear you were going to do it your own way come hell or high water. Nothing wrong with doing it your own way but let's not state that help was not offered and it was your choice to do as you did. You wanted to run open loop and that's fine but when it comes right down to what happened your refusal to provide test data is what really happened.

[1FSTRK]

There must be a better way. Can't some of this information and procedure be included in the instructions? A lot has been stated here about the things the "experienced" tuners know how to do, but this thing is marketed to the general public as a do it yourself tool.

[rbabos]

Ron

If you would like to get facts straight that would be great but I asked several times and you refused. You sent one piece of data and asked me to look at one part only and that's just what I did. You had already made your mind up and that was fine as I'm not going to keep going when you did not want to follow what I asked you to do. I will help just about anyone but when that person refuses to do as asked I stop responding as I did with you, as it was clear you were going to do it your own way come hell or high water. Nothing wrong with doing it your own way but let's not state that help was not offered and it was your choice to do as you did. You wanted to run open loop and that's fine but when it comes right down to what happened your refusal to provide test data is what really happened.

Steve: I've heard that song and dance from Bob already. You gave me no options to try. However, you were quick to blame my build for low kpa readings where in fact it's most likely the way the calibration reads it. Trying different cals on my own proved that point.  Basically it was left at fix my junk and then get back to you. That's how you came across to me, so there was no point going with more data, now was there?
Ron

[FLTRI]

...this thing is marketed to the general public as a do it yourself tool.

Here is TTS' marketing for the product...taken right from their website:

"MasterTune-HD is a Windows-based ECM reprogramming tool specifically for use with 2001 and later Delphi-equipped Harley-Davidson® motorcycles that utilize the diagnostic interface. MasterTune-HD also supports 2005 and later Retrofit ECM Service Modules when installed on earlier vehicles.

MasterTune-HD includes the following key features:

    * Save and restore the original factory calibration
    * Optional multi-vehicle interface
    * Allows changing of factory speedometer calibration
    * Preset limits to prevent adjusting values beyond reasonable settings
    * Stores original and the last table saved edits so tuner can return to previous configuration
    * Comparison functions quickly identify changed regions in tables
    * Adjustment of front and rear cylinder spark advance
    * Adjustment of front and rear cylinder volumetric efficiency
    * Allows changing factory RPM limit
    * Adjust for different fuel injector flow rates
    * 2-D and 3-D graphing of tables to help visualize tuning maps
    * Ability to print table graphs and table values"
I don't see anything that even infers it is a "do it yourself tool"
Bob

[Steve Cole]

Ron

Again not true. You were asked several times to gather some specific data information and email to me. You refused or chose not to do it. Since you would not send the data there is not much I can do and I am not going to keep asking for it. Without data I cannot help you help yourself, had you done as asked things may have turned out much different.

[1FSTRK]

...this thing is marketed to the general public as a do it yourself tool.

Here is TTS' marketing for the product...taken right from their website:

"MasterTune-HD is a Windows-based ECM reprogramming tool specifically for use with 2001 and later Delphi-equipped Harley-Davidson® motorcycles that utilize the diagnostic interface. MasterTune-HD also supports 2005 and later Retrofit ECM Service Modules when installed on earlier vehicles.

MasterTune-HD includes the following key features:

    * Save and restore the original factory calibration
    * Optional multi-vehicle interface
    * Allows changing of factory speedometer calibration
    * Preset limits to prevent adjusting values beyond reasonable settings
    * Stores original and the last table saved edits so tuner can return to previous configuration
    * Comparison functions quickly identify changed regions in tables
    * Adjustment of front and rear cylinder spark advance
    * Adjustment of front and rear cylinder volumetric efficiency
    * Allows changing factory RPM limit
    * Adjust for different fuel injector flow rates
    * 2-D and 3-D graphing of tables to help visualize tuning maps
    * Ability to print table graphs and table values"
I don't see anything that even infers it is a "do it yourself tool"
Bob

You might want to pick up that phone that you have that is hooked to Steve and ask him if he wants you posting that. If you are saying TTS master tune is not a tool to be purchased by the general public for their own use, that it is a tuning tool for professional tuners only, you won't get a rise out of me. Steve on the other hand has not been stating that in so many words. He may not like loosing the do it yourself market because you said this tool is not meant for them.

[Dennis The Menace]

Gents, get back on topic and get along, or this is locked.  Most of thread has little to do with the OP.

[FLTRI]

...Steve: I've heard that song and dance from Bob already. You gave me no options to try (other than to precisely follow data recording instructions and forward the data for diagnostics)...there was no point going with more data, now was there?
Ron

Guess not. Sorry I got involved
Bob
PS - I would still try the NI calibration from scratch just to see if there really is an issue with the cal or if it just got contaminated with bad inputs over many tunes/adjustments/guesses using the same file.

[rbabos]

...Steve: I've heard that song and dance from Bob already. You gave me no options to try (other than to precisely follow data recording instructions and forward the data for diagnostics)...there was no point going with more data, now was there?
Ron

Guess not. Sorry I got involved
Bob
PS - I would still try the NI calibration from scratch just to see if there really is an issue with the cal or if it just got contaminated with bad inputs over many tunes/adjustments/guesses using the same file.

Bob: I've run the NO and NI virgins a couple of times and they end running the  same with same kpa readings.  NO cal, overall seems a tad more refined than the NI 2-1 map, but stupid me kept coming back to it and working with it because it's for a 2-1 exhaust. I know better now and will look for cals that exibits correct kpa readings and tune them instead. If nothing else it gives vtune a half ass chance to get more areas right.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

...You and Steve let me pull my hair out for months on this stupid calibration .
Ron

Categorically NOT TRUE!!!
I asked for data several times to support your assumptions but you refused to record and provide the data needed.

You did send me a data log that did not support anything but low kpa due to deceleration.

Steve mentioned in posts he asked you to record and provide specific data according to his instructions but you chose to ignore those requests.

Again, just trying to help you to resolve your tuning issue(s),
Bob

Bob: Let's get the facts straight. I did supply enough data to read the low kpa, light load areas showing the injector behaviour in this area. Why you failed to read this is beyond me. It was clearly constant state light load rpm. I pointed out that fact when the file was sent to determine if these light load areas of constant rpm , were in your view lean? Where you came up with the decel idea is beyond me. It actually runs at 19.5 kpa in light load steady state and if you had noticed the speedo, it was constant, not dropping in speed over a long period of time.
For what it's worth, yes this area was lean, so I upped the ve's , fattened the afr , relocated the iat, and threw the bitch into open loop, which I know drives you nuts. Oh well, deal with it.
Ron

I still got the data run,you sent it to me at the same time Ron. it definitely shows low KPA at cruise.  it is very obvious in several areas of the log. I was going to post it but I cant seem to get it. it is a very long file though. if you dont have it anymore I can e mail it back to you and you can post it.

[1FSTRK]

I think this is a valuable post. It is not important which side of the above problem you stand on. What is important is that there is an undeniable communication problem here between the manufacturer and a customer. At this point that should be all that matters. It would be nice to focus on a solution that removes the chances of this type of miscommunication in the future.

[FLTRI]

...removes the chances of this type of miscommunication in the future.

miscommuncation?
Bob

[hrdtail78]

Gents, get back on topic and get along, or this is locked.  Most of thread has little to do with the OP.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Feel free to continue the discussion on Ron still trying to get his one bike tuned in any of the threads posted below.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30169.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30986.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29669.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29823.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29081.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28900.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28019.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28506.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,27321.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,27204.0.html

[1FSTRK]

Had you started this thread sooner or had the manufacture included this information in the instructions Ron would not have had to ask for help in all those places and then figure it out on his own and then come back and share it with us here on a thread about how to choose the base cal which is what his real problem was Base cal not Bad motor.
Ron thank you for posting here, I'm sure sharing your experience will help others that can not get a proper base cal from the listed description only.

[FLTRI]

Gents, get back on topic and get along, or this is locked.  Most of thread has little to do with the OP.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Feel free to continue the discussion on Ron still trying to get his one bike tuned in any of the threads posted below.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30169.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30986.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29669.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29823.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29081.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28900.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28019.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28506.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,27321.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,27204.0.html

WOW!!! Until you look at these on-and-on posts you don't realize how much effort and information has been offered to this one member. 
Bob

[rbabos]

Gents, get back on topic and get along, or this is locked.  Most of thread has little to do with the OP.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Feel free to continue the discussion on Ron still trying to get his one bike tuned in any of the threads posted below.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30169.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30986.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29669.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29823.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29081.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28900.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28019.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28506.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,27321.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,27204.0.html

Just so you are up to speed the bike has been tuned for months now. Getting to that point is the conversation not present tuning.
Ron

[rbabos]

Gents, get back on topic and get along, or this is locked.  Most of thread has little to do with the OP.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Feel free to continue the discussion on Ron still trying to get his one bike tuned in any of the threads posted below.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30169.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30986.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29669.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29823.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29081.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28900.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28019.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28506.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,27321.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,27204.0.html

WOW!!! Until you look at these on-and-on posts you don't realize how much effort and information has been offered to this one member. 
Bob

Bob: Actually it's been offered to all members as an open information exchange.  Let's take one example of my experiences. IAT relocation. You guys fought me to no end on that one. One other member did the relocate and pm'd me stating major improvement in operation. My observation as well. Light load drivabiilty settings that I mentioned have seem to work for some also. Effect of calibration and kpa readings connection has been made even if by accident in my case.
Even though a couple of you PRO's think I'm a pain in the ass, I'm sure that my posts have helped to dig up enough some important information that can help the self tuner to get more success on a system, as you put it shouldn''t have been sold to me in the first place.
Keep in mind that all this if sourced from a calibration that is not close enough to do a correct vtune for my specific build. Determining the most suitable calibration , I believe was the the OP's question. Seems once again that info has surfaced to help somebody down the road.
Ron

[rbabos]

quote, Strokerjlk
I still got the data run,you sent it to me at the same time Ron. it definitely shows low KPA at cruise.  it is very obvious in several areas of the log. I was going to post it but I cant seem to get it. it is a very long file though. if you dont have it anymore I can e mail it back to you and you can post it.
Jim: I believe I still have it, but we would be off topic again so if anybody wants to compare my interp of this data run shoot me a pm with email and I'll send it with an explanation as to what I was trying to determine with it and fix. I think this one is light load , steady rpm 1750-2250 rpm drivabiliy issues.
Ron

[FLTRI]

Ron,
Why not just post it up right here?
We can use it as a learning session. Hell I'm always looking for new ways to look at data, etc.
Why keep data private but post results/opinions publicly?
Thanks in advance,
Bob

[rbabos]

Bob: I just tried but the file is too large. I can send it to you if you wish and mayble link the two attachmentst to one of your storage sites? Shoot me your email and I'll send them.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

Ron,
You can send it to me and I will post on Boxnet and post the links here.

[rbabos]

Ron,
You can send it to me and I will post on Boxnet and post the links here.

Sure. I can't seem to get the mickey mouse one I have to accept it. Can you shoot me your email on a pm. I normally don't keep them too long for security reasons and yours is gone now.
Ron

[timtoolman]

ok  so now  what?  Is it more important  to have the cam intake /timing  opening/closing the most important parameter for choosing a base map, Or is the throttle body/intake size?  We know displacement is more easily changed so its not much of a determining factor. Im looking for a base map also  to start v-tune before i get it to the tuner  if i even get it to him right away this spring.  the more changes we have on our build the harder it get  to choose a tts map to start with.  Once chosen  the v-tuning with datamaster and spark tuning isnt a issue as ive found out in the past. A good starter map just makes things easier from the begining

Ex.   i have a 2009 ultra   107  with  hillside stg. 4 heads , woods 400-6 cam and  hpi  2 pc 54 mm  tbw  t/b  with 1.800 runners  and 5.3 inj.  with a Fulscac x pipe with 2.o slip ons and dougherty p/p with hillside big green  filter.    where  would I even start to determine a GOOD  starter map???    cams?  Throttle body size,   type of exhaust?   What??  or  just go to a blank tts map with noting on it for a starter one??

Or do i try to find the map closest with the intake closing the same as my build so the injerctor/ intake valve timing is closest as can be  with the compression (10.5) is  so minimal timing changes  are required???  or did i just answer my question?

I know when i used zippers tmax on my 07 ultra,  Randy  told me the most important thing they look for is the throttle body size  then exhaust type ,  before picking a starter map before auto tuning

[wolf_59]

If you are not a professional tuner where you have a library of tunes set aside for different builds this is where you want to start 
From the TTS Tuning Guide
2.5. Select and Set-up the MT7 Calibration
As a general rule, use the following selection priority if your exact combination is not found. This works for most builds.
1.
Match the vehicle year and model to get the correct calibration level (i.e.176, 205)
2.
Match the camshaft selection (if not stock) as close a possible
3.
Match the head configuration (if not stock)
4.
Match the exhaust configuration

[1FSTRK]

 I think you'll find it is trial and error. What you’re trying to do is match the map sensor part that is built into every base cal to the pulses in your intake manifold. The cam timing is a good way if the cam was the only difference from bike to bike. You’re not just using a different cam but different exhaust system, intake volume, and a bunch of ratios that affect things like displacement vs exhaust cross sectional area. It has been stated that you can not use just intake closing, you have to look at both intake and exhaust events. This comes down to an educated guess and the guy with the most education on guessing with this system is the guy that invented it.

Get your info together call him he will tell you what he wants you to do, do it and you will be on your way. I think the problem is you can't put experience or gut instinct in an instruction manual.

This is being stated in this thread http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,34915.0.html#lastPost

[FLTRI]

I think you'll find it is trial and error. What you’re trying to do is match the map sensor part that is built into every base cal to the pulses in your intake manifold. The cam timing is a good way if the cam was the only difference from bike to bike. You’re not just using a different cam but different exhaust system, intake volume, and a bunch of ratios that affect things like displacement vs exhaust cross sectional area. It has been stated that you can not use just intake closing, you have to look at both intake and exhaust events. This comes down to an educated guess and the guy with the most education on guessing with this system is the guy that invented it.

Get your info together call him he will tell you what he wants you to do, do it and you will be on your way. I think the problem is you can't put experience or gut instinct in an instruction manual.This is being stated in this thread http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,34915.0.html#lastPost

Best info yet!!! Thanks Paul!
With this known, how can we believe canned maps can be close if ALL components are not exactly the same specs? How can anyone simply install a calibration and deem it close?...unless O2 sensors are used to constantly work to adjust and readjust VEs into line with targets as the engine runs.

I feel it is much better to get the VEs right then use O2 sensors to adjust for variances in fuel quality rather than used to get out-of-sinc VEs in line as this must occur continually and cannot be permanently learned with the present ECM.

Just my $.02,
Bob

[timtoolman]

Thanks  looks like ill have to  do the " pick whats close" as far as components go,  seems the bigger the build the harder it is to figure up a map,  Its a lot simpler when just a few parts get changed!    however  i did see a couple of tts  maps on the kuryakan  site that matches the closest .  Time to play !! until tuning/dyno time

  Just made a appt with my local tuner at zepka harley in johnstown,  They start from a zero map and build one, takes 7 hrs,   Tuner was trained by doc, So it should be a good one. 

Lets go mayor  its your turn to do it know,  call  kim

[lonewolf]

They start from a zero map and build one, takes 7 hrs,   

What's a zero map? I thought you have to start from a base calibration.

[mayor]

just made a appt with my local tuner at zepka harley in johnstown,  They start from a zero map and build one, takes 7 hrs,   Tuner was trained by doc, So it should be a good one. 

Lets go mayor  its your turn to do it know,  call  kim

my bike is already there.      ...but not for a tune.     going to try v-tuning first. 

did you talk to Brian?  don't forget to give them a memory stick to save the run files on. 

[whittlebeast]

I think you'll find it is trial and error. What you’re trying to do is match the map sensor part that is built into every base cal to the pulses in your intake manifold. The cam timing is a good way if the cam was the only difference from bike to bike. You’re not just using a different cam but different exhaust system, intake volume, and a bunch of ratios that affect things like displacement vs exhaust cross sectional area. It has been stated that you can not use just intake closing, you have to look at both intake and exhaust events. This comes down to an educated guess and the guy with the most education on guessing with this system is the guy that invented it.

Get your info together call him he will tell you what he wants you to do, do it and you will be on your way. I think the problem is you can't put experience or gut instinct in an instruction manual.

This is being stated in this thread http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,34915.0.html#lastPost

That is one of the critical Harley Hidden Tables I have always wanted opened up.

AW

[timtoolman]

waiting for them to get back to me  about scheduling what day to bring it over and try to get penndot to cooperate  with a day off  for me to do that. Gotta shoot for that  120/120

[timtoolman]

From what the tuner said  a zero map is a map with just basic  stock map with no modifications easier to start  the tune that way,

[1FSTRK]

Thanks  looks like ill have to  do the " pick whats close" as far as components go,  seems the bigger the build the harder it is to figure up a map,  Its a lot simpler when just a few parts get changed!    however  i did see a couple of tts  maps on the kuryakan  site that matches the closest .  Time to play !! until tuning/dyno time

  Just made a appt with my local tuner at zepka harley in johnstown,  They start from a zero map and build one, takes 7 hrs,   Tuner was trained by doc, So it should be a good one. 

Lets go mayor  its your turn to do it know,  call  kim

They can build a ve table but they still have to pick a base cal to start with. Make sure they sample to find the best one before you pay them to build a ve table on the wrong base cal

[1FSTRK]

He thinks that TTS is like powercomander where you can star with a stock zero map and that is wrong.
TTS has to load a base calibration and each one includes different changeable and non changeable data. You have a custom combination that will require some testing of base cals before any map tuning is performed. CALL STEVE COLE with the way his system is now set up he is the only one that can help get this figured out with any speed at all. Then go get it tuned on the base cal Steve recommended

[FLTRI]

Guys, picking a base calibration is not nuclear science. You take your best guess and work with it.

That said, if you find the base calibration you picked per instructions doesn't seem to tune or respond to changes without issues (less than 10% of the time IME) simply try another base calibration and use the copy/paste tables feature to change/build the tuning tables to what you tuned in the first base calibration.

This should get you close to targets but retuning may/will be necessary depending on base cal differences and build complexity (engine size, cams, compression, porting, exhaust,etc). Ie: a 103ci - 10:1 - TW5 - stock TB and injectors bike will be easier and quicker to get to targets than a 124ci - 11.5:1 - TW9f - 62mmTB - SE injectors

Simply put, there are so many build assumptions that must be made to build a calibration that one calibration can work better than another.

Note: There have been a whole slew of crappy tuning files disseminated over the years but most have disappeared or replaced with corrected calibrations.

Bob

[timtoolman]

Well  yes  ive used pc  ii, iii and the v  so i guess i do think to much towards a power commander way of thinking, im glad u corrected me.  yes this tts is new to me,  and i do have a call in to Steve Cole for a answer for the correct base calibration to start off, for the tuner to use,  thanks
gotta learn  and start somewhere

[FLTRI]

Be sure you have all your build specs including which throttle body and injectors when you call Steve for recommendations.
Bob

[timtoolman]

Thanks  Bob  I will

[timtoolman]

Busy  day  talked to Steve Cole and got a good base cal.to go off for the tuner,  And called the tuner at the local Harley shop  for a appt. next week for a dyno tune  with  100.00 off on the tune (300.00)  takes about 9 hours and they even drive 50 mile and pick it up.  Now that's pretty good service in my op. 


Now  the question is what slip on muffler to use with my Fulsac x pipe , My  Reinhart's  or Full-Sac 2" slip on's  have to take both over and find out. 

[1FSTRK]

Busy  day  talked to Steve Cole and got a good base cal.to go off for the tuner,  And called the tuner at the local Harley shop  for a appt. next week for a dyno tune  with  100.00 off on the tune (300.00)  takes about 9 hours and they even drive 50 mile and pick it up.  Now that's pretty good service in my op.   Now  the question is what slip on muffler to use with my Fulsac x pipe , My  Reinhart's  or Full-Sac 2" slip on's  have to take both over and find out. 

What base cal did you end up with for your build?

[timtoolman]

its  a secret!  no  just kidding  he recommended Y2A05  base cal.  i might go with my reinhart  slips   both are close with fulsac being 1 in. smaller in diameter in baffle core but reinharts  sound great with the woods 400-6 cam.  And im sure can be tuned very well as the tuner recommends

[1FSTRK]

Do you have all your build specs listed here some place?

[timtoolman]

Hillside 107 cuin  10.5.1 comp. hillside stage 4 heads with  1.800  intake port, woods 400-6 cams, HPI  54mm 2 piece t/b,  1.800 runners. with s.e.5.3 inj.,with the manifold side port matched to the heads ,  doherty p/p backing plate with hillsides big green a/f.,  fulsac 2-1-2 x header pipe,  woods springs in heads and woods lifters.  s&s  p-rods    mufflers pending

[1FSTRK]

Thanks

[rbabos]

I've been meaning to mention this before but kept forgetting. During my tuning exploits I've tried about 2 different maps that had been tuned for a similar build as mine. Both ran worse than the base cal. Bottom line is always start fresh with a virgin calibration.
Ron

[FLTRI]

I've been meaning to mention this before but kept forgetting. During my tuning exploits I've tried about 2 different maps that had been tuned for a similar build as mine. Both ran worse than the base cal. Bottom line is always start fresh with a virgin calibration.
Ron

...Which is the precise reason when folks ask me for a break-in map from a "similar" build I have to explain why I don't feel comfortable with doing it. If it didn't work out and the engine ran too lean (or too rich) and causes damage who would feel responsible? Me, but maybe that's just me.

Even if the engine is exactly the same, by part number but the exhaust is different for example changing from Rinehart tru-duals to a Fatcat 2into1 the calibration would be miles off in the <2500 range. So bad that the engine would heave and cough just trying to accelerate from 1500-3000 from nowhere near enough fuel to make it happy.

Bob

[wurk_truk]

Here is Rons run file 

http://www.box.net/shared/pntuicrnhl

Here is notepad note

http://www.box.net/shared/q0t54p8fgs

[Steve Cole]

Well let's review the data, only took a year to get some. If you look at the majority of the run it's above where closed loop learn shuts off. The only areas that are below are after the vehicle speed and tps both drop down. Engine Speed never goes above 2500 RPM and TPS never goes above 14.1%! The 50 mph area is an average of 30kPa and 7.7% tps. My bet would be the road was flat if not a little down hill as you can see the MAP drop with the dropping tps. The next area runs 33 mph, 4% tps and the MAP is below at 25 kPa again I have never seen a bike go 33 mph at such little throttle unless is was going down hill a slight amount which would be considered decel. The next area is 20 mph, 3.3% tps and 22 kPa below the learn shut off. This repeats itself through out the run and when you get to the end where the bike is at idle the RPM is about 1000, MAP 28 kPa and 0% tps. So with no load and no throttle it runs 28 kPa and if you make the kPa go below that point you are in a decel since the bike is pushing the engine. The highest tps reading in this whole run is 14.1% and the average is less than 5%!

All of this could have be handled long ago if Rbabos had done what he was asked to do and provided some simple test data.

[rbabos]

John:
Thanks for posting these.
Ron

[rbabos]

Well let's review the data, only took a year to get some. If you look at the majority of the run it's above where closed loop learn shuts off. The only areas that are below are after the vehicle speed and tps both drop down. Engine Speed never goes above 2500 RPM and TPS never goes above 14.1%! The 50 mph area is an average of 30kPa and 7.7% tps. My bet would be the road was flat if not a little down hill as you can see the MAP drop with the dropping tps. The next area runs 33 mph, 4% tps and the MAP is below at 25 kPa again I have never seen a bike go 33 mph at such little throttle unless is was going down hill a slight amount which would be considered decel. The next area is 20 mph, 3.3% tps and 22 kPa below the learn shut off. This repeats itself through out the run and when you get to the end where the bike is at idle the RPM is about 1000, MAP 28 kPa and 0% tps. So with no load and no throttle it runs 28 kPa and if you make the kPa go below that point you are in a decel since the bike is pushing the engine. The highest tps reading in this whole run is 14.1% and the average is less than 5%!

All of this could have be handled long ago if Rbabos had done what he was asked to do and provided some simple test data.

Steve: Did you read the notepad explaining the reason for this run . No decel flat ground and yes it runs at these low kpa.
Ron

[wolf_59]

I noticed on the histogram that there wasn't any activity with the o2 sensors 
could that possibly have anything to do Ron's results?

[rbabos]

I noticed on the histogram that there wasn't any activity with the o2 sensors 
could that possibly have anything to do Ron's results?

I believe it was in open loop to rule out afv for stable testing.
Ron

[wolf_59]

Ok I believe that is what I read in the notes  That clears that up

[FLTRI]

Ron,
As I have stated many times, the data looks normal (maybe just a tad low) and should have tuned in very nicely.
Granted, the very low t/p (<5%) would need some manual tuning due to EGR, but that is tuning 101.
Now if you would post the calibration (NO176?) where the kpa is right up where it needs to from your experience, Steve may be able to see something he may not have not seen before.
We'll figger this out yet...keep the data coming,
Bob

[rbabos]

Ron,
As I have stated many times, the data looks normal (maybe just a tad low) and should have tuned in very nicely.
Granted, the very low t/p (<5%) would need some manual tuning due to EGR, but that is tuning 101.
Now if you would post the calibration (NO176?) where the kpa is right up where it needs to from your experience, Steve may be able to see something he may not have not seen before.
We'll figger this out yet...keep the data coming,
Bob

I don't run No176. This is the NI176 cal. There is nothing to fix at this point since that log was July I think. It was posted as one example of where light load areas were an issue with me and would never vtune out that might help somebody in a similar situation.  I'm only pointing out how I found the cause which led me in the right direction to fix it even with these low kpa's.
The notepad explains it pretty much.
Ron

[Steve Cole]

If you compare vehicle speed to engine speed we can determine the gear. Also you can look at the gear changes made since rpm will drop and vehicle speed will increase. Now I do not know what there is for gears, tires and such but lets look at what the data says. Frame # 3111- 3131 all have ZERO MPH as the clutch is engaged and the tps rises to 3.6% the map goes to 41 kPa just like it should! Now it gets interesting, the tps stays steady at 3.6 - 4.5% this is basically NO throttle input and the RPM climbs to 2100 - 2200 RPM and vehicle speed stay steady around 16 mph with no signs of a gear change!. That is 1st gear NOT 2nd or 3rd. At frame #3488 - 3520 you must have hit a bump as the tps rises to 5.5% and RPM rises to 2583 and map rises and falls as tps does, just as expected. I can only go from what the data shows me not what someones notes say.

[FLTRI]

Edited for wrong info:
Sorry for the misunderstanding Ron. I reread your post. It was the PS176 that you mentioned had higher kpa.

What you can do is post the data file (PS) that contrasts with this one (NI) so maybe we can see why there are differences in kpa.
Thanks,
Bob

[rbabos]

If you compare vehicle speed to engine speed we can determine the gear. Also you can look at the gear changes made since rpm will drop and vehicle speed will increase. Now I do not know what there is for gears, tires and such but lets look at what the data says. Frame # 3111- 3131 all have ZERO MPH as the clutch is engaged and the tps rises to 3.6% the map goes to 41 kPa just like it should! Now it gets interesting, the tps stays steady at 3.6 - 4.5% this is basically NO throttle input and the RPM climbs to 2100 - 2200 RPM and vehicle speed stay steady around 16 mph with no signs of a gear change!. That is 1st gear NOT 2nd or 3rd. At frame #3488 - 3520 you must have hit a bump as the tps rises to 5.5% and RPM rises to 2583 and map rises and falls as tps does, just as expected. I can only go from what the data shows me not what someones notes say.

Steve: That bump is me upping the rpm slightly to see how far up the jerking continued, then brought it back close to where it was previously.  The tps was changed, but don't remember if it was before or after this log. I'm thinking this is with the original tps since later logging displays the voltage, from me resetting the idle screw during the new tps install. The reason for changing it was because I also saw that weird behaviour you mentioned with rpm gain and no tps increase.
Ron

[rbabos]

Edited for wrong info:
Sorry for the misunderstanding Ron. I reread your post. It was the PS176 that you mentioned had higher kpa.

What you can do is post the data file (PS) that contrasts with this one (NI) so maybe we can see why there are differences in kpa.
Thanks,
Bob

Never ran a data on the PS, but I think I have the vtune files on hand. How's one Ni vtune and one Ps vtune file work for you? Kpa is there in both to compare.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

I see several areas 0f 30ish 50 ish mph that the kpa is @ 24-28.
might just be the strong Canadian tail wind.

[FLTRI]

Never ran a data on the PS, but I think I have the vtune files on hand. How's one Ni vtune and one Ps vtune file work for you? Kpa is there in both to compare.
Ron

Just need the data file you found with low kpa as compared to the other data file you found with higher kpa.
The idea here is to point out the differences and how much.

We will compare mph, rpm, tp, and map all at once so we can do as much apples to apples as possible.
Thanks and I think there is definitely something to learn here,
Bob

[FLTRI]

I see several areas 0f 30ish 50 ish mph that the kpa is @ 24-28.
might just be the strong Canadian tail wind.

The 50ish I see is 28-30 @ 7-8% tp 2300ish which should v-tune and run in closed loop without issues.
Most of the 30ish/2200ish is less than 2-3% tp which, in 2nd gear and his build, probably has a bit of EGR that must be dealt with, possible left out of closed loop for lack of good O2 signaling.
Bob

[wurk_truk]

Send me an e-mail and I will posts it up for you Ron.

[hrdtail78]

I see several areas 0f 30ish 50 ish mph that the kpa is @ 24-28.
might just be the strong Canadian tail wind.

The 50ish I see is 28-30 @ 7-8% tp 2300ish which should v-tune and run in closed loop without issues.
Most of the 30ish/2200ish is less than 2-3% tp which, in 2nd gear and his build, probably has a bit of EGR that must be dealt with, possible left out of closed loop for lack of good O2 signaling.
Bob

The 2 spots I see steady state of 50ish seems to both be in the range of Vtune.  The other area I dont get is steady state idle.  it's around 28-29kpa.  I thought I read several times how idle was way out of vtune range.  I dont see that.  I can't see any reason why it would vtune at idle??

[rbabos]

I see several areas 0f 30ish 50 ish mph that the kpa is @ 24-28.
might just be the strong Canadian tail wind.

The 50ish I see is 28-30 @ 7-8% tp 2300ish which should v-tune and run in closed loop without issues.
Most of the 30ish/2200ish is less than 2-3% tp which, in 2nd gear and his build, probably has a bit of EGR that must be dealt with, possible left out of closed loop for lack of good O2 signaling.
Bob

The 2 spots I see steady state of 50ish seems to both be in the range of Vtune.  The other area I dont get is steady state idle.  it's around 28-29kpa.  I thought I read several times how idle was way out of vtune range.  I dont see that.  I can't see any reason why it would vtune at idle??

I never once said it wouldn't vtune at idle. It did.
Ron

[rbabos]

From my perspective I have determined and fixed why the thing was missing and running jerky at the record points of 3206-3755. It seems everyone has missed the cause.
Ron

[rbabos]

Never ran a data on the PS, but I think I have the vtune files on hand. How's one Ni vtune and one Ps vtune file work for you? Kpa is there in both to compare.
Ron

Just need the data file you found with low kpa as compared to the other data file you found with higher kpa.
The idea here is to point out the differences and how much.

We will compare mph, rpm, tp, and map all at once so we can do as much apples to apples as possible.
Thanks and I think there is definitely something to learn here,
Bob

Bob: Not sure where you are going with this. Both No and Ni always have low kpa. That has never changed. The only difference is between the N cals and the PS cal. Substantial increase with the PS176. I don't have any data logs for the PS, only vtune files.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

I see several areas 0f 30ish 50 ish mph that the kpa is @ 24-28.
might just be the strong Canadian tail wind.

The 50ish I see is 28-30 @ 7-8% tp 2300ish which should v-tune and run in closed loop without issues.
Most of the 30ish/2200ish is less than 2-3% tp which, in 2nd gear and his build, probably has a bit of EGR that must be dealt with, possible left out of closed loop for lack of good O2 signaling.
Bob

The 2 spots I see steady state of 50ish seems to both be in the range of Vtune.  The other area I dont get is steady state idle.  it's around 28-29kpa.  I thought I read several times how idle was way out of vtune range.  I dont see that.  I can't see any reason why it would vtune at idle??

I never once said it wouldn't vtune at idle. It did.
Ron

My bad.  I got confused when you were holding it against the wall and uneven pulses and such, with a little barking here and there.....

[rbabos]

I see several areas 0f 30ish 50 ish mph that the kpa is @ 24-28.
might just be the strong Canadian tail wind.

The 50ish I see is 28-30 @ 7-8% tp 2300ish which should v-tune and run in closed loop without issues.
Most of the 30ish/2200ish is less than 2-3% tp which, in 2nd gear and his build, probably has a bit of EGR that must be dealt with, possible left out of closed loop for lack of good O2 signaling.
Bob

The 2 spots I see steady state of 50ish seems to both be in the range of Vtune.  The other area I dont get is steady state idle.  it's around 28-29kpa.  I thought I read several times how idle was way out of vtune range.  I dont see that.  I can't see any reason why it would vtune at idle??

I never once said it wouldn't vtune at idle. It did.
Ron

My bad.  I got confused when you were holding it against the wall and uneven pulses and such, with a little barking here and there.....

Hrdtail78: That was one of the strange traits (I'm surprised you remembered) of the NI as well. Strangely enough the PS cal takes care of that uneven up against the wall pulsing with the same test. Not noticable unless you actually go looking for it with the present NI cal. I went looking because of uneven cylinder warmups on cold starts. I don't even think about it anymore since it seems to have no effect on normal running.
Ron

[FLTRI]

Never ran a data on the PS, but I think I have the vtune files on hand. How's one Ni vtune and one Ps vtune file work for you? Kpa is there in both to compare.
Ron

Just need the data file you found with low kpa as compared to the other data file you found with higher kpa.
The idea here is to point out the differences and how much.

We will compare mph, rpm, tp, and map all at once so we can do as much apples to apples as possible.
Thanks and I think there is definitely something to learn here,
Bob
[/quote]
Bob: Not sure where you are going with this. Both No and Ni always have low kpa. That has never changed. The only difference is between the N cals and the PS cal. Substantial increase with the PS176. I don't have any data logs for the PS, only vtune files.
Ron
[/quote]
Just trying to get the comparison of the NI vs PS kpa in the lower rpms as you noted.
We need to be able to directly compare tp, rpm, vehicle speed, and kpa to do so to see what is happening in both cals.
If ya ain't got it, oh well,
Bob

[rbabos]

Never ran a data on the PS, but I think I have the vtune files on hand. How's one Ni vtune and one Ps vtune file work for you? Kpa is there in both to compare.
Ron

Just need the data file you found with low kpa as compared to the other data file you found with higher kpa.
The idea here is to point out the differences and how much.

We will compare mph, rpm, tp, and map all at once so we can do as much apples to apples as possible.
Thanks and I think there is definitely something to learn here,
Bob

Bob: Not sure where you are going with this. Both No and Ni always have low kpa. That has never changed. The only difference is between the N cals and the PS cal. Substantial increase with the PS176. I don't have any data logs for the PS, only vtune files.
Ron
[/quote]
Just trying to get the comparison of the NI vs PS kpa in the lower rpms as you noted.
We need to be able to directly compare tp, rpm, vehicle speed, and kpa to do so to see what is happening in both cals.
If ya ain't got it, oh well,
Bob
[/quote]
Yes, that would be a good comparison .Can't do much until next riding season however.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

From my perspective I have determined and fixed why the thing was missing and running jerky at the record points of 3206-3755. It seems everyone has missed the cause.
Ron

I seen that area before,it has been so long I forgot.....20 ish kpa most would be at  least 30 kpa in that area. thats too much timing as well. but then again the timing there normally dosent get ridden at steady state cruise. so for decel timing it would have been fine. your not going to get any v tune sampling there either.

[whittlebeast]

Here is Rons run file 

http://www.box.net/shared/pntuicrnhl

Here is notepad note

http://www.box.net/shared/q0t54p8fgs

Here is the RPM vs Map graph.  The rider is only using a very small percentage of the power band on the motor.  Notice that the motor is mostly operated between 1700 and 2600 RPM.  Map mostly in the 18 to 45 KPA range.



This is a spirited ridden Sporty for comparison.  The RPM and MAP range being used is far greater.




The trick is figuring out why the rider is riding the bike so gingerly.  Often I find the motor feels bad out of this very narrow  range.  Stock, my motor was a mess and only felt right in the 3700 to 3700 range.

[rbabos]

Here is Rons run file 

http://www.box.net/shared/pntuicrnhl

Here is notepad note

http://www.box.net/shared/q0t54p8fgs

Here is the RPM vs Map graph.  The rider is only using a very small percentage of the power band on the motor.  Notice that the motor is mostly operated between 1700 and 2600 RPM.  Map mostly in the 18 to 45 KPA range.



This is a spirited ridden Sporty for comparison.  The RPM and MAP range being used is far greater.




The trick is figuring out why the rider is riding the bike so gingerly.  Often I find the motor feels bad out of this very narrow  range.  Stock, my motor was a mess and only felt right in the 3700 to 3700 range.

You do relalize that by now I've burned a rear tire off and turned my rotors blue.
Testing was for one particular area in the map. Didn't feel like I needed to pull a few wheel stands and fry my tire to get to my test area for these light load X rpm tests. I went there, did my test run and rode back. No hurry and nothing to prove.
Ron

[whittlebeast]

You do relalize that by now I've burned a rear tire off and turned my rotors blue.
Testing was for one particular area in the map. Didn't feel like I needed to pull a few wheel stands and fry my tire to get to my test area for these light load X rpm tests. I went there, did my test run and rode back. No hurry and nothing to prove.
Ron

Well, you sure got that area nailed.  What did you learn from the data log or what were you out to learn?

AW

[rbabos]

You do relalize that by now I've burned a rear tire off and turned my rotors blue.
Testing was for one particular area in the map. Didn't feel like I needed to pull a few wheel stands and fry my tire to get to my test area for these light load X rpm tests. I went there, did my test run and rode back. No hurry and nothing to prove.
Ron

Well, you sure got that area nailed.  What did you learn from the data log or what were you out to learn?

AW

Two things actually. I found the reason it was lean in the problem area and the direct connection to head temp and iat temp which made it run worse in the same area. While this is only one log, the iat was suspect for some time since city traffic eventually made it run like absolute crap.
By relocating the iat just behind the filter element on the SE heavy breather elbow iat temps were more stable and not leaning out to the point of ill running in traffic now. Between upping the ve's and fattening up the afr table in the problem rpms, plus going open loop in this region the tune has been solid for months.
While it's been said the ecm compensates for the iat temp, I've not witnessed this especially when it's running on the ragged edge of lean. Then again needing to be in open loop to fix the lean areas the O2's are out of the loop so compensation cannot happen, which might make stable iat temps more important for open loop tuning. Not sure how it all works as a unit.
Ron

[whittlebeast]

I looked at your IATs and noticed that the temp started at 99 and climbed to 135 degrees.  I have seen these numbers as high as about 180 on some bikes I have tuned.  None of these numbers are acceptable when the bike in on the move.  Most of the air cleaner designs that I have seen in the Harley world concentrate on bling and not on basic engineering.

The job of a air cleaner is to provide plenty of smooth flowing, cool, clean air to the motor.  The IAT is a great way to determine how the cool part is working.  Looking at the MAP value when the bike is at WOT at low RPM compared to the MAP at WOT at max RPM is a great way to rate the "plenty" part of the needs.

I normally design to IATs of within about 10 degrees of ambient air temp when the bike is moving.  With MAP, I like to max out at about couple of KPA of ambient air pressure.

Note that almost none of this can be tested/duplicated on a dyno and must be done with data loggers on the street/track.  I only start my tuning process on a dyno.  Things get very different when I get to the track.  Airflow issues and geez driven issues are the most common to run into.  Any tuner that rolls a bike off the dyno and claims that the motor will be perfect on the street should be fired on the spot.

AW

[rbabos]

Yes. I've seen the iat hit 180 on stop and go traffic and longer idle sessions. I've always felt this is wrong in so many ways. It always seem to lean out until enough air has gone through the tb to cool the iat back to a reasonable temp. It seems many are content to tune around the problem and make the effect less noticable but it still exists in some form.  I decided to move the problem . This way the sensor is reading more realistic values rather than picking up blasted or radiated heat from the front head. My view is the present stock tb location for the iat is more convenience rather than placement for good function.
Ron

[1FSTRK]

rbabos:
what did you find was the cause of the low kpa. Was it just something hidden in the other base cal? Did you find any correlation between a certain cam timing event in the description to tell what would work or was it pure trialand error by loading base cals and looking at the kpa?

[rbabos]

rbabos:
what did you find was the cause of the low kpa. Was it just something hidden in the other base cal? Did you find any correlation between a certain cam timing event in the description to tell what would work or was it pure trialand error by loading base cals and looking at the kpa?

Having used both recommended cals closest to my cam events , both showed the same kpa readings. One day just for the hell of it I decided to try different cals to see how it would run. Early on I did try the NL cal and it would barely run, so I tried a couple of the milder calibrations. Loaded the cal with the correct constants and timing that were in the present NI cal and set it up to vtune for idle only at this point. Viewing the histogram at idle, the way higher kpa jumped out at me. That's when I had the  moment and made the connection to calibration/kpa relationship. What I've learned is you want the cal to never drop below 26 kpa in normal running, decel excluded if you want any hope of doing a home tune. This way it will give a more accurate vtune and the AFV will work. AFV can be good or bad but in the tested PS cal the light load areas actually got smoother as the run progressed while in closed loop. Actually very smooth which was a pleasant surprise. Each map reload brought the slight lean back, but over time it smoothed out. A ve increase in this area would likely cure this on final tuning and likely put the AFV more in the middle for compensation.   Quite sure with the NO,NI cals below 26 kpa the AFV doesn't work. Below 26kpa vtune stops working and this is when these areas need extra attention to dial the engine in which is where I had the most problem with. Eventually got it working to my satisfaction.
I guess you could say a lot of trial and error, gas and one rear tire.
Ron

[1FSTRK]

rbabos
I just read through the three other threads you posted to about this. Glad you stuck with it and got it sorted out. Your posts will save other people a lot of time and trouble. Thank you
for sharing it all.

[rbabos]

rbabos
I just read through the three other threads you posted to about this. Glad you stuck with it and got it sorted out. Your posts will save other people a lot of time and trouble. Thank you
for sharing it all.

Thanks. Not sure if the AFV assumptions are correct but I seem to remember from somewhere it's lower operational kpa limit is the same as vtune. If wrong, I will corrected on that, which is ok.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

Rabos,

Thanks for highjacking another thread and turning it into a thread about your tune once again.  There has been plenty of opportunity for you to post your finding in the past.  This thread was about doing something with a dyno for finding a good starter map.  Not your lack of understanding on a Delphi system.

I am very surprised admin allowed this to happen.

[Dennis The Menace]

Hrdtail, this one has been off topic for awhile, so we will let it go.  Some good info here, altho some may not look to find it here.

We all need to do a better job of staying on topic in the threads, gents....me included.

Dennis

[1FSTRK]

Rabos,

Thanks for highjacking another thread and turning it into a thread about your tune once again.  There has been plenty of opportunity for you to post your finding in the past.  This thread was about doing something with a dyno for finding a good starter map.  Not your lack of understanding on a Delphi system.

I am very surprised admin allowed this to happen.

Actually his posts fall nicely under the thread title. I think that his looking for answers and staying with this topic was probably one of the biggest factors in bring about the new improvements to TTS. While my tuner was able to work around the previous short comings and both of my bikes have run better with TTS than any other device that I have purchased, he has long said that this was a needed improvement. As I read through the many postings by rbabos I realized how hard this all is for the average guy or a tuning shop that is new to TTS. We have all beat this thing to death. The bottom line is a good tool just got better and it had as much to do with every single posted here as it did to do with Steve listening and being willing to put in the time and effort to address the issues.

[hrdtail78]

I can see the avantages of having the right cam events in place, but at one time the PCIII was the big rage.  No matter what cam was acually installed the base map was for the stock cam.  When picking a base cal for the cam installed with TTS I consider the intake vavle closing important.  Maybe the most important.  Having a base for every cam is ideal but not what I have to work with.  I have heard tuners state that they can check several different base cals quickly to choose thier starting one.  How are you guys doing this?  TIA.

"Actually his posts fall nicely under the thread title."

Well, I will agree to disagree with you on this.  Got to read more than the title and what is acually being asked.

You can give Rabos all the credit you want.  I would consider the many pro tuners Steve talks to on a daily basis coming more into play than Rabos being pimped info by other people just to stir up the pot, distract from real topics and spread misinfo.

Dennis,

Might not of gotten anymore info on my topic anyway.  But then again I might of.

[lonewolf]

Rabos,

Thanks for highjacking another thread and turning it into a thread about your tune once again.  There has been plenty of opportunity for you to post your finding in the past.  This thread was about doing something with a dyno for finding a good starter map.  Not your lack of understanding on a Delphi system.

I am very surprised admin allowed this to happen.

Actually his posts fall nicely under the thread title. I think that his looking for answers and staying with this topic was probably one of the biggest factors in bring about the new improvements to TTS. While my tuner was able to work around the previous short comings and both of my bikes have run better with TTS than any other device that I have purchased, he has long said that this was a needed improvement. As I read through the many postings by rbabos I realized how hard this all is for the average guy or a tuning shop that is new to TTS. We have all beat this thing to death. The bottom line is a good tool just got better and it had as much to do with every single posted here as it did to do with Steve listening and being willing to put in the time and effort to address the issues.

I also agree. I think everyone who follows these threads has learned about what to look for. I also think Ron understands the delphi system better than most.

[1FSTRK]

I can see the avantages of having the right cam events in place, but at one time the PCIII was the big rage.  No matter what cam was acually installed the base map was for the stock cam.  When picking a base cal for the cam installed with TTS I consider the intake vavle closing important.  Maybe the most important.  Having a base for every cam is ideal but not what I have to work with.  I have heard tuners state that they can check several different base cals quickly to choose thier starting one.  How are you guys doing this?  TIA.

.Actually his posts fall nicely under the thread title."

Well, I will agree to disagree with you on this.  Got to read more than the title and what is acually being asked.

Look at what you have in red. You did not say pro. He does discuss how and why he went on to try different maps. Had anyone posted this information in the beginning he would not have gone through most of these things on his own. Thankfully he does not keep it to himself as some tuning secret to make money off of and shared it with all.

[hrdtail78]

OK

[HD/Wrench]

I had a call from a tuner that was tuning one of our kits. I had e mailed the customer a map that we had tuned on that same kit here in house. The tuner refused to use that cal as he said he did not like it. End of his tuning session bike was down over 14/14 from we see and over 8/7 from where it started with our cal. I think we all have found cals that work with a certain kit. And then others that just do not.  Tuning every day gets us very used to working with the tuning tool. However there are times where you have to try something else and see what you get.

Cam, pipe, heads, and pick through the cals. Funny as I like the PC176 cal but I have spoken to other tuners that do not. It may be that my pc base cal is now so far from where it started that is the reason I like it.

When I was tuning the 96 incher with a 255 & the 48 Jim or herko dont recall now, ask me if I had tried the cvo110 cal. SO I did. Copy paste and re load a bit of tweaking and I was up over 4/4!!!  That cal in my set up worked better than the 96  cal that I had been tuning with..

But now with the new updated with the TTS should be intresting to see how they effect the tune.

[Herko]

Yepper, the CVO cals will wake up the 96's with the likes of the 255, AP48. 

Similar (or better) increases can be had with other build combos when a base cal is used that's not in accordance with Hoyle.

[mayor]

Yepper, the CVO cals will wake up the 96's with the likes of the 255, AP48. 

I'm willing to give this a try     but I'm not sure what cal to start with on my '09 96" 48h bagger.  should I try UJ205-002 ? I was just going to run the TD 205-002 with a fresh v-tune that I was running my stock cams on... If I go with a CVO cal, what all functions do I need to adjust to accommodate the smaller displacement of my bike?  I assume at least engine displacement.   

[rbabos]

Yepper, the CVO cals will wake up the 96's with the likes of the 255, AP48. 

I'm willing to give this a try     but I'm not sure what cal to start with on my '09 96" 48h bagger.  should I try UJ205-002 ? I was just going to run the TD 205-002 with a fresh v-tune that I was running my stock cams on... If I go with a CVO cal, what all functions do I need to adjust to accommodate the smaller displacement of my bike?  I assume at least engine displacement.   

Mayor: Why not wait for the mt8 files unless you're waiting for the warranty to end? The mt8 might even the playing field with calibrations, so the one you have might perform just as well.
Ron

[FLTRI]

Mayor: Why not wait for the mt8 files unless you're waiting for the warranty to end?
Ron

How could the TTS in itself cause a warranty to be an issue? 
Only way I know is if the calibration caused the failure due to improper tune, which is applicable to any tuning device. 
Bob

[rbabos]

Mayor: Why not wait for the mt8 files unless you're waiting for the warranty to end?
Ron

How could the TTS in itself cause a warranty to be an issue? 
Only way I know is if the calibration caused the failure due to improper tune, which is applicable to any tuning device. 
Bob

Well, for one thing if it goes into the shop with the mt8 the dealer can't read the ecm should it be needed. Other than that, nothing.
Ron

[FLTRI]

Well, for one thing if it goes into the shop with the mt8 the dealer can't read the ecm should it be needed. Other than that, nothing.
Ron

I believe the damage has to indicate reason for failure was due to calibration issues as would be required regardless of how it was tuned and the device used.
Bob

[mayor]

Mayor: Why not wait for the mt8 files unless you're waiting for the warranty to end?

not too worried about the warranty..think it runs out in a month anyway.     I'm a little nervous about the mt8 not allowing a shop to read the ecm without me carrying the dongle around.  The other thing is, I'm not sure I know enough to feel comfortable changing a whole lot until I get a little more time in use under my belt.     I might wait till some of you smarter fellows get the mt8 stuff figured out before I jump in.   

[mayor]

Bob, I don't think Ron was suggesting a problem being created by the TTS...just the issue with a shop not being able to view the new file format without the dongle or the lack of being able to reflash back to the stock flash if need be. 

[hrdtail78]

Steve,

Now you show up.  I started a 08 RK with 48's this afternoon.  Finish tomorrow.  I used PS176-002, lowered the ci and used the CAA176-002 timing tables.  I'll try the CVO cal.  BTW Stock A/C.

[hrdtail78]

Bob, I don't think Ron was suggesting a problem being created by the TTS...just the issue with a shop not being able to view the new file format without the dongle or the lack of being able to reflash back to the stock flash if need be.

Restore ECM calibration.  Take to dealer.  Reload your finely tweeked cal.  If that is the only thing to bitch about the new MT8 files.  We "tuners" have it good.

[mayor]

I started a 08 RK with 48's this afternoon.  Finish tomorrow.  I used PS176-002, lowered the ci and used the CAA176-002 timing tables.  I'll try the CVO cal.  BTW Stock A/C.

am I looking at the cals wrong...it looks like the ones you listed not intended for DBW...but isn't the '08 RK DBW?   

[hrdtail78]

07  its got cables.

[mayor]

you posted '08 though    I thought you were doing one of the "tuner" tricks... ala freeze plug and 2' section of 4" pipe.   

[HD/Wrench]

Sorry Jason, If you had called I would have freely given you that info 

[Hogflash]

Mayor: Why not wait for the mt8 files unless you're waiting for the warranty to end?
Ron

How could the TTS in itself cause a warranty to be an issue? 
Only way I know is if the calibration caused the failure due to improper tune, which is applicable to any tuning device. 
Bob

Well, for one thing if it goes into the shop with the mt8 the dealer can't read the ecm should it be needed. Other than that, nothing.
Ron

The dealer can run diagnoses and read the ECM just fine with the MT8 files.  They just cannot FLASH the ECM.  If this is an issue, return the ECM to stock using the MTE file you originally uploaded (you DID save the original cal, right?). All the dealer tools will then work normally.

--Gary

[rbabos]

Mayor: Why not wait for the mt8 files unless you're waiting for the warranty to end?
Ron

How could the TTS in itself cause a warranty to be an issue? 
Only way I know is if the calibration caused the failure due to improper tune, which is applicable to any tuning device. 
Bob

Well, for one thing if it goes into the shop with the mt8 the dealer can't read the ecm should it be needed. Other than that, nothing.
Ron

The dealer can run diagnoses and read the ECM just fine with the MT8 files.  They just cannot FLASH the ECM.  If this is an issue, return the ECM to stock using the MTE file you originally uploaded (you DID save the original cal, right?). All the dealer tools will then work normally.

--Gary

Gary: Good to know they can read it for diagnostics should something go for a chit on a road trip and no way to reflash it.
Ron

[Steve Cole]

Well we had 2 choices with the new code that we have developed, let the factory tools try and reprogram it which would render the bike to a no run condition or stop them from reprogramming it..................... which would you choose?

[1FSTRK]

Well we had 2 choices with the new code that we have developed, let the factory tools try and reprogram it which would render the bike to a no run condition or stop them from reprogramming it..................... which would you choose?

Will you confirm that they will be able to read it for diagnostics ?

Good to see you posting info on this and thanks for the additional  improvements to you tuning tool.

[hrdtail78]

What codes can they pull or diagnostics can they do that the TTS can't pull?  Save the stock calibration. 
The program also reminds you of that before you load anything into the ECM.

This has what to do with selecting base cals?  The chicken little's have already come up with something to worry about, and discredit before the update is even released.  Priceless.

[1FSTRK]

What codes can they pull or diagnostics can they do that the TTS can't pull?  Save the stock calibration. 
The program also reminds you of that before you load anything into the ECM.

This has what to do with selecting base cals?  The chicken little's have already come up with something to worry about, and discredit before the update is even released.  Priceless.

Not sure if this was a reply to my post to Steve or what??

[Steve Cole]

The diagnostics will work the same for them as it has in the past. This is no big deal but some want to make it that way. Follow the instructions and do what you were supposed to have done all the way along and you will not have any issues.

[1FSTRK]

The diagnostics will work the same for them as it has in the past. This is no big deal but some want to make it that way. Follow the instructions and do what you were supposed to have done all the way along and you will not have any issues.

Thanks for the reply. When it comes to your product it is better to hear it straight from you, less chance of a problem of miss understanding someone that thinks they know and are speaking on your behalf. I talked with my dyno shop and will be updating and tuning with the MT8 as soon as they are released.
Thanks again

[wurk_truk]

Hey Mayor.  I think this  bit of pot stir over the MT8s is a non starter.  The dealer can still read the codes.  AND... they can NOT change your cal.  That sounds like a good deal to me and an 'upgrade' over the tuning device you REALLY know quite well.  It's another step UP away from a TMax IMHO.  You were NOT afraid to ride the TMax from Heck and back.... the newer MT8s at least lets a dealer into diagnostics.

PLUS.....  everyone is forgetting that MT7s won't disappear.  Worried about a trip far away from home?  One could load an MT7 file and go to dealer's all day long.  I feel that quite a few folks will stick with MT7s and be happy, you know?  MT7s for the worry warts and MT8s for those that don't.

I lost my base cal when the laptop froze a couple years ago.  I'm think of getting a flash at the dealer... pull into the parking lot and flash my present tune back into the bike... and THIS time put the base cal on a thumb drive.  THEN... start with the MT8 as soon as available.

[mayor]

I feel that quite a few folks will stick with MT7s and be happy, you know?  MT7s for the worry warts and MT8s for those that don't.

yea, I think right now I'm a on the worry wart side of the scale.     My issue is there's a whole lot that I don't know about the TTS system, so I'm not real comfortable adding one more variable to the equation.     I'll probably stick with MT7 format until I know for sure that that one won't work with my set up.  The only issue I have with the MT7 is the base cal's are somewhat limited for '08-'09 DBW's.  Luckely for me, I'm not smart enough to know the limitations that this might cause...so in reality it's a non issue.  As I posted before, I'll let you smarter folks figure it out first...then I might jump in...but not if I feel that the MT7 is getting it done for me at the time.   

I think I misunderstood what you posted earlier about the MT8's not being able to be read by the dealers.  As you pointed out, that's not really that big of an issue for me since I've run the last couple of years like that.  Although, that was one of the reasons I'm running TTS on my new bike rather than T-max.  I like the T-max, but it does leave you with some vulnerability issues if there's a problem that needs diagnosed with someone smarter than the end user.  I experienced this myself last year when I fried two auto-tune modules (due to a broken ground wire connector which wasn't apparent at first).  Truth be told, I carry a lap top and cables when ever I tour on my T-max bike so adding a dongle isn't really too much more anyway.    

[whittlebeast]

Post Moved

[Texasvet]

Hopefully I can get some assistance from this forum.  I am trying to pick a starting map for my 08 UC with 96 and 255 cams.  I also have stage 1 breather and Rinehart 2:1 exhaust. 

Thanks for any assistance.

[Hilly13]

Wow! That is some thread, thanks to all the contributer's, one tough classroom but lessons galore.
Cheers
Hilly

[hrdtail78]

Hopefully I can get some assistance from this forum.  I am trying to pick a starting map for my 08 UC with 96 and 255 cams.  I also have stage 1 breather and Rinehart 2:1 exhaust. 

Thanks for any assistance.

What have you narrowed you choices down to?  There are a couple in the Cal listing that would suit the 255's.

[Texasvet]

Hopefully I can get some assistance from this forum.  I am trying to pick a starting map for my 08 UC with 96 and 255 cams.  I also have stage 1 breather and Rinehart 2:1 exhaust. 

Thanks for any assistance.

What have you narrowed you choices down to?  There are a couple in the Cal listing that would suit the 255's.

I tried UH205-002 and inputted my engine size of 96 and not 103 but during the test runs the bike backfired a lot and didn't really run worth a hoot.  I have utilized TD205-002 and it seems to run okay but unsure if the timing is correct for the 255 cam.  There has been suggestions for the UJ205-002, which is the CVO 110 and inputting the 96 engine but have not tried that download.  Figured I'd ask the forum to see what others, if they have my configuration, have tried and if successful.

[mayor]

I tried UH205-002 and inputted my engine size of 96 and not 103 but during the test runs the bike backfired a lot and didn't really run worth a hoot.  I have utilized TD205-002 and it seems to run okay but unsure if the timing is correct for the 255 cam. 

There has been suggestions for the UJ205-002, which is the CVO 110 and inputting the 96 engine but have not tried that download.  Figured I'd ask the forum to see what others, if they have my configuration, have tried and if successful.

The TD205-002 cal has a good bight of timing in the early cruise rpm's, but the timing should be ok once you get the fuel dialed in.  Just do a few v-tunes, then run the Datamaster to see if it pulls any timing out anywhere.  I don't think the adaptive spark retard is usually set for the first column (40 kPa), so you will want to make sure that is set to pull timing out of that area while you are datalogging:



The timing on the UH205-002 cal looks like it's designed for the higher compression of the 103" w/ 255's.  It doesn't have much advance in the early rpm's, so that might be why that cal gave you some trouble.  I would think that cal would have felt very lazy based on the timing. 


I'm running UJ205-002 with my 96" Andy 48's. I changed the engine displacment to 97.9 at the direction of Herko and hrdtail.  I've been posting comments on my tuning progress on another thread, might be some usable info for you in here:  http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,35308.0.html
I've been able to advance my timing in the cruise areas, but I haven't tried as much as what the TD205-002 cal has yet. My next datamaster run will have close to that timing, but I'm not sure when I'll be doing that.  It's still winter here, so I probably won't know for sure how much timing I can run for another couple of months when the temps warm up. 

hth,
mayor