Picking base cal for TTS.

[FLTRI]

...You and Steve let me pull my hair out for months on this stupid calibration .
Ron

Categorically NOT TRUE!!!
I asked for data several times to support your assumptions but you refused to record and provide the data needed.

You did send me a data log that did not support anything but low kpa due to deceleration.

Steve mentioned in posts he asked you to record and provide specific data according to his instructions but you chose to ignore those requests.

Again, just trying to help you to resolve your tuning issue(s),
Bob

[rbabos]

...You and Steve let me pull my hair out for months on this stupid calibration .
Ron

Categorically NOT TRUE!!!
I asked for data several times to support your assumptions but you refused to record and provide the data needed.

You did send me a data log that did not support anything but low kpa due to deceleration.

Steve mentioned in posts he asked you to record and provide specific data according to his instructions but you chose to ignore those requests.

Again, just trying to help you to resolve your tuning issue(s),
Bob

Bob: Let's get the facts straight. I did supply enough data to read the low kpa, light load areas showing the injector behaviour in this area. Why you failed to read this is beyond me. It was clearly constant state light load rpm. I pointed out that fact when the file was sent to determine if these light load areas of constant rpm , were in your view lean? Where you came up with the decel idea is beyond me. It actually runs at 19.5 kpa in light load steady state and if you had noticed the speedo, it was constant, not dropping in speed over a long period of time.
For what it's worth, yes this area was lean, so I upped the ve's , fattened the afr , relocated the iat, and threw the bitch into open loop, which I know drives you nuts. Oh well, deal with it.
Ron

[Steve Cole]

Ron

If you would like to get facts straight that would be great but I asked several times and you refused. You sent one piece of data and asked me to look at one part only and that's just what I did. You had already made your mind up and that was fine as I'm not going to keep going when you did not want to follow what I asked you to do. I will help just about anyone but when that person refuses to do as asked I stop responding as I did with you, as it was clear you were going to do it your own way come hell or high water. Nothing wrong with doing it your own way but let's not state that help was not offered and it was your choice to do as you did. You wanted to run open loop and that's fine but when it comes right down to what happened your refusal to provide test data is what really happened.

[1FSTRK]

There must be a better way. Can't some of this information and procedure be included in the instructions? A lot has been stated here about the things the "experienced" tuners know how to do, but this thing is marketed to the general public as a do it yourself tool.

[rbabos]

Ron

If you would like to get facts straight that would be great but I asked several times and you refused. You sent one piece of data and asked me to look at one part only and that's just what I did. You had already made your mind up and that was fine as I'm not going to keep going when you did not want to follow what I asked you to do. I will help just about anyone but when that person refuses to do as asked I stop responding as I did with you, as it was clear you were going to do it your own way come hell or high water. Nothing wrong with doing it your own way but let's not state that help was not offered and it was your choice to do as you did. You wanted to run open loop and that's fine but when it comes right down to what happened your refusal to provide test data is what really happened.

Steve: I've heard that song and dance from Bob already. You gave me no options to try. However, you were quick to blame my build for low kpa readings where in fact it's most likely the way the calibration reads it. Trying different cals on my own proved that point.  Basically it was left at fix my junk and then get back to you. That's how you came across to me, so there was no point going with more data, now was there?
Ron

[FLTRI]

...this thing is marketed to the general public as a do it yourself tool.

Here is TTS' marketing for the product...taken right from their website:

"MasterTune-HD is a Windows-based ECM reprogramming tool specifically for use with 2001 and later Delphi-equipped Harley-Davidson® motorcycles that utilize the diagnostic interface. MasterTune-HD also supports 2005 and later Retrofit ECM Service Modules when installed on earlier vehicles.

MasterTune-HD includes the following key features:

    * Save and restore the original factory calibration
    * Optional multi-vehicle interface
    * Allows changing of factory speedometer calibration
    * Preset limits to prevent adjusting values beyond reasonable settings
    * Stores original and the last table saved edits so tuner can return to previous configuration
    * Comparison functions quickly identify changed regions in tables
    * Adjustment of front and rear cylinder spark advance
    * Adjustment of front and rear cylinder volumetric efficiency
    * Allows changing factory RPM limit
    * Adjust for different fuel injector flow rates
    * 2-D and 3-D graphing of tables to help visualize tuning maps
    * Ability to print table graphs and table values"
I don't see anything that even infers it is a "do it yourself tool"
Bob

[Steve Cole]

Ron

Again not true. You were asked several times to gather some specific data information and email to me. You refused or chose not to do it. Since you would not send the data there is not much I can do and I am not going to keep asking for it. Without data I cannot help you help yourself, had you done as asked things may have turned out much different.

[1FSTRK]

...this thing is marketed to the general public as a do it yourself tool.

Here is TTS' marketing for the product...taken right from their website:

"MasterTune-HD is a Windows-based ECM reprogramming tool specifically for use with 2001 and later Delphi-equipped Harley-Davidson® motorcycles that utilize the diagnostic interface. MasterTune-HD also supports 2005 and later Retrofit ECM Service Modules when installed on earlier vehicles.

MasterTune-HD includes the following key features:

    * Save and restore the original factory calibration
    * Optional multi-vehicle interface
    * Allows changing of factory speedometer calibration
    * Preset limits to prevent adjusting values beyond reasonable settings
    * Stores original and the last table saved edits so tuner can return to previous configuration
    * Comparison functions quickly identify changed regions in tables
    * Adjustment of front and rear cylinder spark advance
    * Adjustment of front and rear cylinder volumetric efficiency
    * Allows changing factory RPM limit
    * Adjust for different fuel injector flow rates
    * 2-D and 3-D graphing of tables to help visualize tuning maps
    * Ability to print table graphs and table values"
I don't see anything that even infers it is a "do it yourself tool"
Bob

You might want to pick up that phone that you have that is hooked to Steve and ask him if he wants you posting that. If you are saying TTS master tune is not a tool to be purchased by the general public for their own use, that it is a tuning tool for professional tuners only, you won't get a rise out of me. Steve on the other hand has not been stating that in so many words. He may not like loosing the do it yourself market because you said this tool is not meant for them.

[Dennis The Menace]

Gents, get back on topic and get along, or this is locked.  Most of thread has little to do with the OP.

[FLTRI]

...Steve: I've heard that song and dance from Bob already. You gave me no options to try (other than to precisely follow data recording instructions and forward the data for diagnostics)...there was no point going with more data, now was there?
Ron

Guess not. Sorry I got involved
Bob
PS - I would still try the NI calibration from scratch just to see if there really is an issue with the cal or if it just got contaminated with bad inputs over many tunes/adjustments/guesses using the same file.

[rbabos]

...Steve: I've heard that song and dance from Bob already. You gave me no options to try (other than to precisely follow data recording instructions and forward the data for diagnostics)...there was no point going with more data, now was there?
Ron

Guess not. Sorry I got involved
Bob
PS - I would still try the NI calibration from scratch just to see if there really is an issue with the cal or if it just got contaminated with bad inputs over many tunes/adjustments/guesses using the same file.

Bob: I've run the NO and NI virgins a couple of times and they end running the  same with same kpa readings.  NO cal, overall seems a tad more refined than the NI 2-1 map, but stupid me kept coming back to it and working with it because it's for a 2-1 exhaust. I know better now and will look for cals that exibits correct kpa readings and tune them instead. If nothing else it gives vtune a half ass chance to get more areas right.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

...You and Steve let me pull my hair out for months on this stupid calibration .
Ron

Categorically NOT TRUE!!!
I asked for data several times to support your assumptions but you refused to record and provide the data needed.

You did send me a data log that did not support anything but low kpa due to deceleration.

Steve mentioned in posts he asked you to record and provide specific data according to his instructions but you chose to ignore those requests.

Again, just trying to help you to resolve your tuning issue(s),
Bob

Bob: Let's get the facts straight. I did supply enough data to read the low kpa, light load areas showing the injector behaviour in this area. Why you failed to read this is beyond me. It was clearly constant state light load rpm. I pointed out that fact when the file was sent to determine if these light load areas of constant rpm , were in your view lean? Where you came up with the decel idea is beyond me. It actually runs at 19.5 kpa in light load steady state and if you had noticed the speedo, it was constant, not dropping in speed over a long period of time.
For what it's worth, yes this area was lean, so I upped the ve's , fattened the afr , relocated the iat, and threw the bitch into open loop, which I know drives you nuts. Oh well, deal with it.
Ron

I still got the data run,you sent it to me at the same time Ron. it definitely shows low KPA at cruise.  it is very obvious in several areas of the log. I was going to post it but I cant seem to get it. it is a very long file though. if you dont have it anymore I can e mail it back to you and you can post it.

[1FSTRK]

I think this is a valuable post. It is not important which side of the above problem you stand on. What is important is that there is an undeniable communication problem here between the manufacturer and a customer. At this point that should be all that matters. It would be nice to focus on a solution that removes the chances of this type of miscommunication in the future.

[FLTRI]

...removes the chances of this type of miscommunication in the future.

miscommuncation?
Bob

[hrdtail78]

Gents, get back on topic and get along, or this is locked.  Most of thread has little to do with the OP.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Feel free to continue the discussion on Ron still trying to get his one bike tuned in any of the threads posted below.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30169.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30986.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29669.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29823.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29081.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28900.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28019.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28506.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,27321.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,27204.0.html

[1FSTRK]

Had you started this thread sooner or had the manufacture included this information in the instructions Ron would not have had to ask for help in all those places and then figure it out on his own and then come back and share it with us here on a thread about how to choose the base cal which is what his real problem was Base cal not Bad motor.
Ron thank you for posting here, I'm sure sharing your experience will help others that can not get a proper base cal from the listed description only.

[FLTRI]

Gents, get back on topic and get along, or this is locked.  Most of thread has little to do with the OP.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Feel free to continue the discussion on Ron still trying to get his one bike tuned in any of the threads posted below.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30169.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30986.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29669.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29823.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29081.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28900.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28019.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28506.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,27321.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,27204.0.html

WOW!!! Until you look at these on-and-on posts you don't realize how much effort and information has been offered to this one member. 
Bob

[rbabos]

Gents, get back on topic and get along, or this is locked.  Most of thread has little to do with the OP.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Feel free to continue the discussion on Ron still trying to get his one bike tuned in any of the threads posted below.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30169.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30986.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29669.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29823.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29081.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28900.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28019.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28506.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,27321.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,27204.0.html

Just so you are up to speed the bike has been tuned for months now. Getting to that point is the conversation not present tuning.
Ron

[rbabos]

Gents, get back on topic and get along, or this is locked.  Most of thread has little to do with the OP.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Feel free to continue the discussion on Ron still trying to get his one bike tuned in any of the threads posted below.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30169.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30986.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29669.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29823.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,29081.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28900.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28019.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28506.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,27321.0.html
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,27204.0.html

WOW!!! Until you look at these on-and-on posts you don't realize how much effort and information has been offered to this one member. 
Bob

Bob: Actually it's been offered to all members as an open information exchange.  Let's take one example of my experiences. IAT relocation. You guys fought me to no end on that one. One other member did the relocate and pm'd me stating major improvement in operation. My observation as well. Light load drivabiilty settings that I mentioned have seem to work for some also. Effect of calibration and kpa readings connection has been made even if by accident in my case.
Even though a couple of you PRO's think I'm a pain in the ass, I'm sure that my posts have helped to dig up enough some important information that can help the self tuner to get more success on a system, as you put it shouldn''t have been sold to me in the first place.
Keep in mind that all this if sourced from a calibration that is not close enough to do a correct vtune for my specific build. Determining the most suitable calibration , I believe was the the OP's question. Seems once again that info has surfaced to help somebody down the road.
Ron

[rbabos]

quote, Strokerjlk
I still got the data run,you sent it to me at the same time Ron. it definitely shows low KPA at cruise.  it is very obvious in several areas of the log. I was going to post it but I cant seem to get it. it is a very long file though. if you dont have it anymore I can e mail it back to you and you can post it.
Jim: I believe I still have it, but we would be off topic again so if anybody wants to compare my interp of this data run shoot me a pm with email and I'll send it with an explanation as to what I was trying to determine with it and fix. I think this one is light load , steady rpm 1750-2250 rpm drivabiliy issues.
Ron

[FLTRI]

Ron,
Why not just post it up right here?
We can use it as a learning session. Hell I'm always looking for new ways to look at data, etc.
Why keep data private but post results/opinions publicly?
Thanks in advance,
Bob

[rbabos]

Bob: I just tried but the file is too large. I can send it to you if you wish and mayble link the two attachmentst to one of your storage sites? Shoot me your email and I'll send them.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

Ron,
You can send it to me and I will post on Boxnet and post the links here.

[rbabos]

Ron,
You can send it to me and I will post on Boxnet and post the links here.

Sure. I can't seem to get the mickey mouse one I have to accept it. Can you shoot me your email on a pm. I normally don't keep them too long for security reasons and yours is gone now.
Ron

[timtoolman]

ok  so now  what?  Is it more important  to have the cam intake /timing  opening/closing the most important parameter for choosing a base map, Or is the throttle body/intake size?  We know displacement is more easily changed so its not much of a determining factor. Im looking for a base map also  to start v-tune before i get it to the tuner  if i even get it to him right away this spring.  the more changes we have on our build the harder it get  to choose a tts map to start with.  Once chosen  the v-tuning with datamaster and spark tuning isnt a issue as ive found out in the past. A good starter map just makes things easier from the begining

Ex.   i have a 2009 ultra   107  with  hillside stg. 4 heads , woods 400-6 cam and  hpi  2 pc 54 mm  tbw  t/b  with 1.800 runners  and 5.3 inj.  with a Fulscac x pipe with 2.o slip ons and dougherty p/p with hillside big green  filter.    where  would I even start to determine a GOOD  starter map???    cams?  Throttle body size,   type of exhaust?   What??  or  just go to a blank tts map with noting on it for a starter one??

Or do i try to find the map closest with the intake closing the same as my build so the injerctor/ intake valve timing is closest as can be  with the compression (10.5) is  so minimal timing changes  are required???  or did i just answer my question?

I know when i used zippers tmax on my 07 ultra,  Randy  told me the most important thing they look for is the throttle body size  then exhaust type ,  before picking a starter map before auto tuning