96" 48h cams DBW base cal for TTS

[mayor]

I'm new to TTS, so much of the black art voodoo stuff is over my head.     I had thought about using the cal that I used for my stock stage 1 (TD205) as a base for my v-tune of the 48 cam build, but a recent post by Herko has me thinking about trying a different cal (UJ205-002).  I don't know much about what all the charts do yet, but I'm thinking if I use a cal for a larger cubic inch engine I should probably match the settings to the fuel acel, fuel decel, cranking fuel, and iac charts to the 96" map settings? I'm I thinking right?  I also figured I would copy and past the previous VE tables and timing charts to the new cal, just to start with something close?  am I thinking through this right? anything else I need to know? 


just curious- when you fellows are v-tuning the DBW bikes on the dyno, do you adjust the throttle blade control chart before v-tuning?   


tia,
mayor

[Herko]

Mayor,
Yes, try the UJ205-002 C2.
What are the build parameters other than the AP48?
If cams pipe and air cleaner:
To start, set the CI at 98.0 or so and leave the injectors at 4.35

[HD/Wrench]

I have one for the 09 FBW and a D&D 2-1 pipe..

[mayor]

I'll be running the stock 2-1-2 w/SE Fat Shotz.    

[HD/Wrench]

Sorry never tuned that one. I had a cal for the stock 09 head pipe with D&D slip ons but I lost a bunch of my data when the lighting hit our dyno and computer.

[mayor]

I loaded up a modified UJ205-002 map today.  I used 97.9 for the displacement (down 11% from the original), and increased the warm up enrichment up 11% (per hrdtail's instructions).  The bike started fine     and ran pretty good.     The temps got into the 40's here today, so I decided to get on the road for a some v-tuning.  I managed to get two runs in.  The roads aren't real good here (lots of loose anti skid), so my route was all main roads.  That limited me to how many cells I could hit, but overall I think I got a pretty good start.  and here's the data from the second run:




It looks like I'm close to maxing out the VE's on the rear in a few cells, so should I do another run and see where it ends up....or should I just take the CI's up 2% and the current VE's down 2% before the next run? 

The way the weathers been, I probably won't get to do run number 3 for a few weeks or so.     ...but at least I got my first ride of the year in.   

[03deuce]

How do you like the cam so far?

[FLTRI]

Mayor,
Here's the way I have done it:
But first: Put the cubic inches and warm up tables back to where they were for baseline evaluation.
Start the bike dead cold, let it warm for about 10-20 secs get on the bike and ride easily off to a steady state second/third gear light (~2%-5%) throttle. Cold engine smoothness/response is the only issue here:

a) Does the engine start right up AND idle/run nice and clean? - (prolly ideal - don't mess with it )
or
b) does it run rich and miss/skip fire? - (Needs lowering of values in the warm up table)
or
c) does it not like to run low speed steady state and doesn't respond to light acceleration? Intake spit. (Need to increase warm up table)
HTH,
Bob

[mayor]

How do you like the cam so far?

honestly, I was too busy worrying about hitting the tuning cells to notice.     in order to hit as many cells as possible, I needed to ride the bike much differently than I normally would.   Although, I think the cams are going to work pretty good for how I normally ride this bike.  I haven't really opened the throttle up yet ( since I had the accel enrichment turned off for v-tune) , but the light throttle response in the early rpm's feels nice.  I didn't get to pull any hills either, but I don't think early tq is going to be a problem. 

Start the bike dead cold, let it warm for about 10-20 secs get on the bike and ride easily off to a steady state second/third gear light (~2%-5%) throttle. Cold engine smoothness/response is the only issue here:

a) Does the engine start right up AND idle/run nice and clean? - (prolly ideal - don't mess with it )
or
b) does it run rich and miss/skip fire? - (Needs lowering of values in the warm up table)
or
c) does it not like to run low speed steady state and doesn't respond to light acceleration? Intake spit. (Need to increase warm up table)

thanks Bob.  That info will definitely help.     I rode the bike cold down the road yesterday to the gas station before the first v-tune, and it seemed to be running fine.  I wasn't paying particular attention to details then though, so I will on the next map.

what's your thoughts on the VE's? I've got some 120's on the rear in places.   

[wolf_59]

Mayor
I had to increase mine by 15% but I only went 5% the first time and maxxed out again so increased another 5% and maxxed out, reset to original and increased 15% ( just like Steve told me in the first place ) and still ended up with some cells in the 124 range still haven't finished it up with timing work and another VTune run

[mayor]

did you change anything other maps other than CI and VE's?

[wolf_59]

Nope just increased CI and decreased VE's the same % then Vtuned

[Herko]

Mayor.
Looks like you've got a good tune underway.
With the VE's at 121, while high, as you know you've still got some room left.

From the looks of the pink/white for that area, those 120's / 121's could start trending lower with addl VTuning. i.e. the 0-2% white and 2-5% light pink VE cells in that neighborhood are lower. Your 120+ cells are still a bit dark on the pink/white scale.

JMHO but, give it another whirl with what you've got concentrating on numerous good hits in that part of the grid.

If they should trend higher, then add the cubes.

[mayor]

thanks, wolf.   

cool, thanks Herko.     that's what I was leaning towards too.  I didn't get much into those cells during the first run, so I think that's why the other cells had less change than those. 

[hrdtail78]

I zero out my warm up enrichment until done Vtuning.  Then I set back to original map and make adjustments according to what I have done to my Cu. In. table.  I then adjust warm up enrichment.

[mayor]

I wouldn't think the warm up enrichment should affect the v-tune, does it?     The bike started well, and seemed to run fine while cold...but I wasn't really paying too much attention at the time.   

[Herko]

Mayor.
Correct, once WUE has decayed out (time based) to zero, it will not effect VTune.
In a Dyno environment, it's often set to zero (turned off) to enable a sooner begin-point of non-WUE-affected AFR/Lambda data gathering.

[mayor]

cool, thanks.    

[wolf_59]

I pick up more usable information in just about every TTS thread 
Another thing I did after I got started doing some runs was each VTune I would go ahead and extend the last good # on out, seemed like it wasn't having to make as large of adjustments after that then again could have been my imagination 

[wurk_truk]

That graph looked really nice, Mike.  You are hitting the cells and already have the hang of things.  (that by it self... took me MONTHS to be able to generate a good solid Histograph of the data runs for v-tuning).  I would go with what everybody said... but in this order...  do what Bob says.  Get that cold starting ironed out and that will help you decide if the base map is to the bike's liking.  This would stop you from having the wrong map and pulling your hair aout like Ron did.   Then I (me) like to turn off AE, PE, WUE, etc and go for tuning runs.  Once close on the VEs... turn off knock control, too.

You have quite a bit of room left, so don't increase the cubes quite yet...  126?  THEN think about it.  VEs are nothing more than a calculation... pure and simple.  It actually is NOT 'measuring' anything in our engines, it is simply allowing us a means to 'measure' the air flow.  My little 107 needed 117 cubes to get it all OK.

Once you have enough runs to lock down the VE's... work the timing a bit.  Using Datamaster... make some runs.  THEN you can play them back and look for where the bike pulls timing.  First thought would be to pull timing at .5 increments to make it stop... but I NOW like to add a little bit of fuel to the affected areas first.

After working the timing... do a couple more v-tune runs and see whats up.  Unless its in a closed loop area... I like to add fuel with the AFRs  (lambda??) instead of the VEs.

I'm sure Bob, Hdtail, and John will correct me if I am wrong on any of this.  HAHAH!!!

From my friends... a 48 cam is a great camset.  John and Bob?  Shouldn't 48s get close to 100 TQ on a Stage 2 bike with good pipes?

[hrdtail78]

Not Bob or John, but I got 98 with just pipes.

[wurk_truk]

Not Bob or John, but I got 98 with just pipes.

Damn!  That IS what I am talking about.  I have Alzheimers and forgot your first name Hrdtail. Jason?

48s are a really nice set of cams!!!!

[Herko]

I pick up more usable information in just about every TTS thread 
Another thing I did after I got started doing some runs was each VTune I would go ahead and extend the last good # on out, seemed like it wasn't having to make as large of adjustments after that then again could have been my imagination

Any given cell can be affected by its surrounding cells. They work via a weighted average.

[wurk_truk]

ANd isn't that from ALL surrounding cells, John?  In all directions?  It isn't just linear, right? (tryin to learn more).

[Herko]

IME, yes.
For this reason I pay a lot of a attention to the 3D graph and force-match VE's in the idle area(s) early in the tune.
I look for as smooth of a terrain as the build will allow.
If I see "spikey" areas I'll consult that feedback data that created a given spiked VE number to check its validity and quality.  If data quality looks good but there still concern, I'll run in that area again to check for repeatability. If valid again, it's what the build wants.

Along this vane and depending on the anomaly, I'll look over the tuning hardware for the likes of a loose sensor, loose or partial connection, wiring integrity etc.