Crankshaft Runout-The Report

[Ratfade]

A couple of weeks ago we had a really long thread about crankshaft run-out and how to measure it. I said I'd measure mine and report back when it was done. For background, my bike is a 2000 FLHTCI with about 85,000 miles. It's been bored to 96" (40,000 miles ago), and for the last 10,000 miles I've been running Andrews 37G's. The job didn't take long (although it's not back together yet), but I didn't time it as I did it piecemeal using the garage as an escape from holiday festivities. Probably the most time consuming part was shortening the pushrods enough to remove them. I was able to remove the cam cover with only loosening the front header bolts and by using a cut-down allen wrench to gain access to the hard-to-reach allen bolts. I didn't remove the cam support plate because I didn't want to have to re-align the oil pump, so my measurements are probably not super accurate, but I think they're accurate enough. I used a steering wheel puller to remove the pinion gear ($15 from Advance Auto Parts), and it worked fine. Here's what I found:

The gears themselves looked virtually perfect---basically they appeared new and unused. I think this explains why I've never heard any of the noises from the cam chest that are so often associated with gear drive. I placed the dial indicator at several different points and had a friend observe while I spun the rear wheel. In each case, the measurement was well  under .001, perhaps even under .0005. Based on engine noise and the condition of the gears, this was within the range I expected, and I was pleased with the result.

I really wanted to post pics of the process, but either I don't have the right kind of membership, or I just can't figure out how to do it. Anyway, that's the news.

[Billy]

Good News!

Happy New Year!!

[ridgerider]

i have looked for that thread an cannot find it ....we spent half a day this weekend checking the pinon shaft on a 2000 fxdwg. measuring at approx 90° intervals and came up with a + /- 0.001,, the only pictures i could find was on harleyhogs site where he shows measuring his when doing the bb cam project...most of our time was getting the dial to be perpendicular to the shaft...we also preloaded the dial and measured from there also..some pictures would be great. to see how the more experenced ones are doing it...   this is a great site thanks

[Arrowsmit]

Definitely not one of the more experienced ones, but here's how I check my '02:



FWIW I didn't like the measurements I got using my Starret mag base w/arms so I rigged the above mount. The results didn't improve w/the more solid mount tho, still .0038"

The silver lining (if there is one) is that I've been in the camchest & checked TIR a couple times since I took the 1st reading (around 18K mi ago) & it hadn't changed...

VicW.

[WVULTRA]

Just checked the '07 Ultra at 26,000 miles:



Just under .0035".

[autoworker]

Here's my experience on a 900mi. 07 FXD.With the cam plate on it measured .0019in. with the plate removed it measured .0088in.The bushing on this low mileage engine was holding the crank relatively true.The bike wasn't abused the first 900 mi.(I should know it's mine).This was found at the beginning of a 103in. upgrade.The crank was removed sent out,trued,plugged and welded.

I suspect if you have a higher mileage engine that runout problems will be evident while checking with the cam plate installed due to eventual bushing wear from an untrue crank.

[WVULTRA]

BTW:

My run-out with the cam plate removed was .004".

[Back Road Mike]

Last April when my bike was torn down, the run out on my 05 with 62k miles was .007.

Engine was rebuilt to a 103" with S&S 4 3/8" forged flywheel, and timken installed. Run out was measured at .0005. Flywheel was not balanced, trued or welded.

Run out was just checked again this month at 85K miles and run out is still at .0005.   

[Arrowsmit]

I've not checked mine w/camplate installed but it should be a little better? Also have never checked the output shaft run-out either...started too once, but couldn't figure a good way to spin it w/the sprocket off.

VicW.

[PoorUB]

Just checked the '07 Ultra at 26,000 miles:

Just under .0035".

I wonder what the runout would be with the camplate removed?
Seeems to me to get a good reading you need to remove the cam plate. If you check it with the camplate on and get +/-.0005", I would think it was good. If you are pushing .002" total indicator reading, or more I would pull the cam plate and check again. Keep in mind with the cam plate on you are supporting the crank in two places on the cam end of the crank. The indicator reading will not be anymore than the clearance in the bearings. How could the end of the crank possibly move any more than what the bearings allow??
Sorry to say, but .0035" with the cam plate in place would make me nervous! Pull the plate and measure again!

[NtTrain]

BTW:

My run-out with the cam plate removed was .004".

reply #6

[WVULTRA]

I wonder what the runout would be with the camplate removed?
Seeems to me to get a good reading you need to remove the cam plate. If you check it with the camplate on and get +/-.0005", I would think it was good. If you are pushing .002" total indicator reading, or more I would pull the cam plate and check again. Keep in mind with the cam plate on you are supporting the crank in two places on the cam end of the crank. The indicator reading will not be anymore than the clearance in the bearings. How could the end of the crank possibly move any more than what the bearings allow??
Sorry to say, but .0035" with the cam plate in place would make me nervous! Pull the plate and measure again!

PoorUB:

Not sure why .0035 with the camplate on would make you nervous..........From my post (#6) above:

My run-out with the cam plate removed was .004".

I'm in the middle of upgrading the cams/pushrods/lifters, etc. and I wanted to check with the plate on and off.  And yes, since the camplate has a bushing, I feel there is a certain amount of constraint on that end of the crankshaft.  Not sure if the bushing is replaceable, but it has a separate part number and IMO is considered a wear item.  Be nice if these crankshafts had the tru-ness/quality that they used to. Might have "parent material" instead of a bushing.   

For 26,000 miles my bushing looks great; and I honestly didn't expect a significant difference in the readings with the plate on or off.

[WVULTRA]

NtTrain:

We posted at the same time!

[PoorUB]

I wonder what the runout would be with the camplate removed?
Seeems to me to get a good reading you need to remove the cam plate. If you check it with the camplate on and get +/-.0005", I would think it was good. If you are pushing .002" total indicator reading, or more I would pull the cam plate and check again. Keep in mind with the cam plate on you are supporting the crank in two places on the cam end of the crank. The indicator reading will not be anymore than the clearance in the bearings. How could the end of the crank possibly move any more than what the bearings allow??
Sorry to say, but .0035" with the cam plate in place would make me nervous! Pull the plate and measure again!

PoorUB:

Not sure why .0035 with the camplate on would make you nervous..........From my post (#6) above:

My run-out with the cam plate removed was .004".

I'm in the middle of upgrading the cams/pushrods/lifters, etc. and I wanted to check with the plate on and off.  And yes, since the camplate has a bushing, I feel there is a certain amount of constraint on that end of the crankshaft.  Not sure if the bushing is replaceable, but it has a separate part number and IMO is considered a wear item.  Be nice if these crankshafts had the tru-ness/quality that they used to. Might have "parent material" instead of a bushing.   

For 26,000 miles my bushing looks great; and I honestly didn't expect a significant difference in the readings with the plate on or off.

Glad yors was ok, but read post #5. .0019 with the cam plate in place, .0088" with the plate removed. As I tried to make clear the camplate will support the shaft and limit the reading to what ever bearing clearances are.

I also found the MoCo's recomended way of measuring runout, This is one thing it said,

When the right side crankshaft half shifts more than 0.015” it can break the oil pump’s
gerotors, resulting in a loss of oil pressure. Diagnostics of a low oil pressure situation is
outlined in Section One of the Service Manual, under the Troubleshooting chapter.

After analyzing the system as outlined under “Low Oil Pressure” and confirming a very
low to no oil pressure you will need to remove the cam cover for inspection of the oil
pump and cam support plate. If you find the oil pump gerotors bound or broken it could
be from a contaminate running through the pump or a scissored crankshaft.

REMEMBER â€" replace the oil lines and drop the oil pan / tank to clean out any debris.

Inspection of the right side crankshaft run-out requires a dial indicator and a flexible
mounting arm.
Proper set-up is critical to accurate readings:


•
The reading must be taken directly on the crankshaft at the machined surface for
the cam support plate bushing

So the MoCo says to remove the cam plate and inspect the oil pump and related parts, then check crank run out. It does not say to put the camplate back in place.

[Ratfade]

i have looked for that thread an cannot find it ....we spent half a day this weekend checking the pinon shaft on a 2000 fxdwg. measuring at approx 90° intervals and came up with a + /- 0.001,, the only pictures i could find was on harleyhogs site where he shows measuring his when doing the bb cam project...most of our time was getting the dial to be perpendicular to the shaft...we also preloaded the dial and measured from there also..some pictures would be great. to see how the more experenced ones are doing it...   this is a great site thanks

Ridgerider, that thread is on the second page back. It's labelled "crankshaft runout".

[TXChop]

I just measured a 103 motors runout. .005 with cam plate, .006 without. It have over 20k miles and severe scoring of the cam plate and oil pump.

[NtTrain]

I don't know what year it was exactly but it was within the last 4 that the MOCO all of a sudden got away from trueing stand measurements (disregarded them all together) and declared installed measurements the new standard for runout. There is no doubt in my mind that this was done in hopes that the drive end and pinion end bearings would bring questionable cranks into an ever increasing spec. to be able to deny warranty.
I would not be surprised if soon they decided that having the camplate installed would yield more warranty denials.........
Thus the share holders are once again happy.
Next phase is plastic cranks and you are not supposed to actually ride it just polish, play dress up, and roll out by the pool  to admire.......