Futher Frame details needed and frame repair questions

[Little Al]

so in my previous post about my frame their seemed to be a bit of disagreement on the year of the frame. I've already decided I'm gonna use it on my '54 FL but in closer examination I found the following. I consulted Palmer's as best I could but I'm not that good at researching I guess, or maybe I just don't know how to read? lol.

left rear axle slot: XE-7
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/LittleAl_2008/1954%20PanHead/?action=view&current=leftrearaxle.jpg

Right rear axle slot: XE-6
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/LittleAl_2008/1954%20PanHead/?action=view&current=rightrearaxle.jpg

under seat post area: 48E-1
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/LittleAl_2008/1954%20PanHead/?action=view&current=seatframebottom1.jpg

so these pics may help you guys further define what year it might be.

More important, one of the left front motor mount holes is stripped and a lousy repair was done to it. I'm looking for suggestions on a good solid, neat fix
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/LittleAl_2008/1954%20PanHead/?action=view&current=leftfrontmount1.jpg

Next, obviously someone decided to weld a plate over the seat mounting tube. should I try and cut it off or maybe just drill a hole through it a bit larger then the tube, then have the edge of the hole welded to the top of the tube (would be nice & strong right?)
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/LittleAl_2008/1954%20PanHead/?action=view&current=seatframetop.jpg
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/LittleAl_2008/1954%20PanHead/?action=view&current=seatframebottom1.jpg

I also need some help on details for the tool box mount. someone apparently cut everything out that should be there? I thought their was a flat mounting plate between the top & bottom rail. any idea on the size, positioning of the plate? pictures would be great maybe with some measurements to go along with it?
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/LittleAl_2008/1954%20PanHead/?action=view&current=toolboxarea.jpg

The lock is in the neck, no key though. any way to get it out without ruining it? thinking i should take the frame to a locksmith and let him see if he can get it out, make a key, whatever. if i drill it out are replacements available?

Last question in this series (lol, thanks!) After I do/have done all these repairs I was thinking of powdercoating the frame, then thought I'd save the cash & just have it painted. i know PC is better (did it on my '83 Shovel) but since this won't be my daily ride I'm thinking it was originally painted so...


whew, I type ALOT!

thanks guys!

[Deye76]

As far as powdercating is concerned, yes it will hold up better, but be sure you can live with the color, cause it's way harder to remove.

[moose]

al

see if you can read the key numbers on the front lock. most old time locksmiths can still make the key from the code. I just had mine done 2 weeks ago and it works fine.

[Little Al]

Deye, good point but mostly because i just assumed black was the frame color used originally. anyone know if they used frame colors other then black in '54?

Moose, no numbers or markings on the lock at all. i have no objection to drilling it out as long as i can get a replacement. if not I'd rather leave it in even if un-usable

[Deye76]

Deye, good point but mostly because i just assumed black was the frame color used originally. anyone know if they used frame colors other then black in '54?

Moose, no numbers or markings on the lock at all. i have no objection to drilling it out as long as i can get a replacement. if not I'd rather leave it in even if un-usable

Some police bikes had white frames. Not sure which years.

[Little Al]

well then I will stick with black. Probably gonna go with paint rather then the powder coat.

I'll have to make a decision after I get the other frame issues I mentioned straightened out

[04customking]

Little Al, I powdercoated my frame black and I'm very happy with it. If complete originality is what you're after then I believe you need paint, but for a driver I wanted the resistance to chipping and the lasting good looks of the pc. I had to do alot of repairs to my frame before I had it done. The loops were gone and I remade them, and the rear stand mount tabs were gone and had to remake them to but I'm very glad to have a frame that looks original even if I know it isn't perfect. Looking at you're frame I think you can get that plate off without too much problem, and grind and smooth the tubes underneath to look nice. Time and patience are the biggest factors. You'll be glad you did when you're done.
Jim

[Little Al]

Jim, I do understand the value of PC that's why i did it on the '83 which IS my daily rider. This '54 never will be although I do expect I'll put around 5K a year on it. I, like you, won't worry about perfect, nor restoration, I just want it to look right. And like you, I'll be glad when it's done if I don't rush it. I made that mistake when I did my '83 Shovel 10 years ago, cheaped out on some stuff and rushed through some things to get her back on the road and in the end I wound up completely redoing her 3 years later. I now have 7 years and 40K on that second rebuild. I will NOT do that with the Pan!

I think your right about the plate, obviously I'll have to do something to get the seat on! Since you also have a '54, any chance you have a picture of the tool box mounting on the frame? I can't seem to find anything that really shows how the mount is attached to the frame.

I happen to have a really good local welder, been in business over 75 years, third generation still owns it and welds every day. 3 blocks from my local HD dealer (been a HD dealer since 1928, oldest family owned HD dealer in the country) they've used him all these years. Ity was actually funny when I brought in my Shovel inner primary to see if he could weld a broken bolt tab back on and he knew what it was and the problem as I walked into the shop with it. From across the room he said "shovel primary? bet ya the 2 front tabs broke off" and laughed. he told me he'd done 1000's over the years.

Anyway, I'm eventually gonna put the frame in his hands with some pics when I can get some. I'd prefer to fabricate the tool box mount myself, drill or remove that plate under the seat myself and let him weld up what's needed and fix the motor mount hole. I still need advise on the motormount hole repair and most important the tool box mounting pictures


Thanks all

[04customking]

I'm sorry, I didn't re-install the mount on mine because I put a disc brake on mine. The softail caliper I used fits perfectly between the frame rails where the box would be. You can buy the mount from several places and it does weld in place. I looked it up in the V-twin catalog and on pg 611 it shows it and the part # is 31-0528. It lists for $39.82. No sense in trying to make it yourself.
Also, here is a link to a site with dimensions as to where to place it. Not very clear but see if it helps.  Jim

http://www.hydra-glide.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=39

[Little Al]

Did a little research while waiting for a description and or pics from someone on the toolbox mounting for my '54:

NOSPARTS shows 2 parts.
one covers 40-51 and is essentially just a strip with curved end to wrap around frame tubes for welding ($25.00) (R3457-40B)
the other covers 55-57 and is basically a square with a curved bottom edge to wrap around frame tubes for welding ($22.00) (R64450-55)

V-TWIN shows the same two types (at much higher prices!)
31-0525 is a strip type stating 48-54 ($66.50) but when checking price/availability says 48-53
31-0655 is same but states REPLICA 48-53 and that one is $83.17
31-0528 is the square type stating REPLICA 54-57 for $39.82 but when checking price/availability says 55-57

Anyone have a clue on which TYPE is the correct one for a 1954 FL?

I just want to get the right style of mount for my year.
also, general opinions/comparisons on quality/price of V-Twin and NOS? I don't want to waste money, neither by overpaying for the same quality part NOR by paying a cheap price for an inferior part.

Thanks guys!

[Little Al]

Jim,

apparently we were typing at the same time, lol

thanks for the link

[04customking]

Little Al, if you have palmers book, look on page 37. It shows the square mount that ours takes and the caption says 1952-1957 Big Twin frame tool box mount. On page 39 it shows another pic of a late 1954-1957 frame. If you don't have the book I'll scan the pic for you later today.
Jim

[Little Al]

Thanks Jim, I do have Palmer's but as I've stated before, ain't too good as researching in books, lol Don't know if it's the old eyes, old brain or what, but everytime I go looking in palmer's for something specific I wind up off in a totally different direction, lol

Thanks, at least now I know which one to buy.

[04customking]

Glad I can finally help someone.   

[Little Al]

man do I know THAT feeling, lol.
I sometimes hope to find a question so simple I can  answer it AND be correct AND before 8000 others answer it, LOL

[Pzokes]

Don't drill out the lock!  A good locksmith will be able to make a key from a blank.  A good locksmith will want to see a bill-of-sale for the frame before doing the work, to make sure that it's not stolen.  On many original bikes the neck lock had the tumblers and the ignition key lock had no tumbler.  I usually have the locksmith key them the same.

Many of the replacement locks that are sold don't have a stop, and may need something to limit travel.  The lock tumbler is held in by a very small pin that runs through the frame and the tumbler.  this can be carfully drilled out and some people replace the pin with a small broken drill bit or drift pin.  The plug on the front of the neck can be removed (it pops out) to get better access to lubricate the old fork locking pin.

[Little Al]

I suspected that a good locksmith could do it.

Thanks for explaining how to get it out. I looked at the frame, the exploded views in the parts manual and the service manual and couldn't figure it out. Now I won't have to take the frame out, just the lock assembly and bring that to them. great idea on the lock and ignition being keyed alike, would have regretted it later because i wouldn't have given it a thought.

Thanks

[Little Al]

Ok Pzokes, so where is that very small pin holding the lock in?

I have the frame in my kitchen, good lighting, had my glasses on (yep, getting old, lol) and can't find a thing. i assume it's on the protrusion from the neck that the lock actually fits into but I see nothing. so is it top, bottom, front or rear? the frame has no paint on it, actually glass bead blasted by the guy i bought it frombut I just don't see a hole or pin end anywhere. if you could tell me where to look maybe i could do a little scraping with a razor blade or something to try and find the edge of it

Thanks 

[Little Al]

here's a close up of the lock & neck if it helps:

http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/LittleAl_2008/1954%20PanHead/?action=view&current=IMG_1392.jpg

[CraigArizona85248]

I thought the pin was located at about the 1 o'clock position if you were looking directly at the key end of the lock barrel.  About 1/2" out from the frame.  Look close, someone may have filled the hole with something.

-Craig

[Little Al]

Thanks Craig!

and nice hijack and edit of my picture! lol Someday i gotta figure out how to do that stuff

tonight when I get home from work I'll take an extra close look, maybe a magnifying glass...

[04customking]

Little Al, this thread on www.hydra-glide.net was very helpful when I had to remake my whole lock setup. Maybe the pics will help show you what you're looking for.

http://www.hydra-glide.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=66&hilit=neck+lock

[Little Al]

Excellent thread Jim! very informative and filled with pictures to make the whole thing easier for me.

I'm a member there too (hydra-glide.net) but rarely go there. Don't know why, it's pretty good but somehow HTT just feels like home for me and it has all the forums for all my bikes to boot. I can tell by the names many guys from HTT also belong there too. Maybe i should go there more often, but.... lol

Thanks again for the link and info.

Little Al

[04customking]

I know exactly what you mean, I only check in there once a week or so. I'm sure I'm probably wrong, but I feel like I have to apologize over there for not having a bone stock bike. Lots of smart people there though.
Jim

[CraigArizona85248]

That is a great thread!  Huge amount so detail.
I'm also a member over there.  There are plenty of guys over there who aren't obsessed with keeping things stock.  On the other hand, I'm sure a few have fainted when I tell them about the mods to my bike.   
I doubt I'd take a original panhead hardtail frame and chop it like mine today.  But I'm not going to apologize for something that was done 38 years ago when you couldn't give those frames away.  LOL

-Craig

[Pzokes]

Great link to explain what I poorly described.  The aftermarket tumbler from VT will not match the original Briggs & Stratton lock key for your ignition, and the "recently discovered NOS" Briggs & Stratton locks sold on Ebay are actually for another application, and don't have the stop in the tumbler.  They do fit and turn, but try to stay with the original lock.

[Little Al]

Pzokes, you gave an excellent description, but as always a picture is worth a 1000 words, especially for the feeble minded like me, lol.

Craig, I hear you on some's reaction to the mods you made, but a very large part of biking is about making it yours no matter what others may think. I've been riding 39 years as of this past September and have never worried once about what someone else thought about any of my bikes and I've never knocked someone else's vision of what their bike should be.

Jim, Craig and they rest of you guys that are members there as well as here. I'll continue to go there for stuff, as you guys do too, but you'll find me stopping by here every single day, if for nothing else, just to see what's up, lol. Like my neighborhood bar, it's just like home. it's funny maybe, but I talk to my buddies about this or that or who on HTT like I know some of you guys in person. Actually in the almost 5 years I've belonged to HTT I've thought many times about making an attempt to meet some of you in person but was never sure about how that would be received. I ride all over the country, make a coast to coast just about every year and ride every day (if no ice!). I'm a member over at OFOPOS too (about 2 years) and sort of regretted I never got to meet Samuel in person especially since he saved my ass many a time when i rebuilt my Shovel from the ground up. oh well, life goes on right?

I'm gonna start a new thread with an idea that just struck me...

[Little Al]

and the lock saga continues.

I scraped the 1 o'clock position with a razor blade pretty damn good, still can't find any pin:

http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/LittleAl_2008/1954%20PanHead/?action=view&current=lock.jpg

Also, I realized the hole in the front of the neck is plugged with something very hard (JB weld?):

http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/LittleAl_2008/1954%20PanHead/?action=view&current=Front.jpg

so I'm thinking I'm back to drilling the lock out and of course, drilling out that plug. any suggestions?

[MBSKEAM]

use a propane torch on the plug and the what ever will burn off, the plug is just a sheet metal piece
you might see if a lock smith could make you a key.
I drilled mine out, this will let you collapse the outer sleeve into it self.

mbskeam

[Little Al]

well I took out the plug in the front of the neck, it WAS just a light metal plug. First I drilled a hole in the center, was gonna use a slide hammer to pop it out but I could see it was a whole lotta nothing so I just used a drift pin from the inside on an angle and 2 hammer taps and out it popped.

Next problem;
when I look into that now un-plugged hole it looks like whatever pin or something that is operated by the tumbler (assuming the turn of the tumbler pushes whatever I'm seeing into the neck to lock the tree in place) is broken. it looks like an un-even broken-off maybe 3/8" diameter pin.
I did finally fin the small pin that holds the tumbler in but even after drilling that out the tumbler wasn't coming so I started to drill it out. we all of course know how that went, lol, I broke my bit. I was doing this all last night at midnight in my kitchen and i gave up for the night. gonna go back at it tonight when I get home from work.

any advise on what I can expect with that broken appearing pin?

[Little Al]

btw, it's kinda deep and dark in there but I'll see if I can get a pic of what the end of the "broken" pin looks like.

[Little Al]

well I got out the tumbler and the "pin" that it slides into the trees to lock the fork.

that pin IS broken so a whole new assembly is in order. I'll worry about it after I get the frame fixes done and after it's painted.

thanks all,  for the help so far...

[Little Al]

Just for future reference for all of us, here are some pics of what that pin looks like (although mine is broken at the tip) and the tumbler pin position

[Pzokes]

You can still "mix & match" parts to use a Briggs & Statton tumbler.  You can buy the tumbler from "zimalady" on ebay (aka Bill's Cycle, originally Bill's Harley Davidson in PA) and use the locking pin, front plug, etc. from a V-Twin neck lock kit.  These "discovered NOS tumblers" did not have a stop on the last one that I used, but they will use the same key as the ignition switch. 

[Little Al]

thanks Pzokes, gonna go search eBay now.

[mark61]

       Bill's Custom Cycles
       7145 Columbia Blvd.
       Bloomsburg, Pa. 17815
       570-759-9613            570-759-3078
       www.billscustomcycles.com     

      Actual location is on the south end of Berwick, Pa. on route 11. Really nice people and a great place to visit if you get near them!  Even after HD tried to screw them back in the late '80's.

mark61

[Little Al]

mark,

emailed Bill for a catalog and I think I can stop there on 1/30 while on a drive out to Milwaukee for the weekend. He's 3 hours from me and I'll be going right by, would seem a damn shame not to stop there. Seems like a cool guy and place!

[mark61]

   Leave yourself some time and spend the $5 to go upand see his collection/museum!
   He is about 2 miles north of rt80 Berwick (and I think Washingtonville?) exit for rt 11. Easy to find!

mark61

[Pzokes]

Easyrider did an article on him in the eighties when HD corporate screwed him out of being a dealer.

[mark61]

    Story was---Bill goes round buying old dealers inventory and what every else he finds with HD parts. There was a HD dealer bout 30 miles away. Went thru change of ownership---2 owners maybe 20 years while Bill was doing his thing.  Neither of those owners seemed to have a problem with him.  HD dealer wanted out after a fire and the younger generation wanting to get into computers. Guys  or a family that was doing indy shop work building some hot rides picked up the franchise and built a new shop/ new location. This happend right around the time the "Eagle Sours Alone". New dealers got worked up bout people buying parts from Bill"s and Bill had a very large stock of OEM. He also took trade in for chrome. Courts found Bill was doing nothing wrong.  Even when dealers were  still selling shovelhead parts it was easier to go to Bill's cause they KNEW WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT! Bill's got an expert machine shop too. Real old school type shop.

mark61

[Little Al]

already spoke to Denise there at Bill's. I'm making a stop there on my way to Milwaukee on Friday 1/30. I can't wait. gonna bring lots of cash, lol

[04customking]

Yea, and don't forget the camera. Great place. You'll love it. 

[Pynzo]

I've got a spare pin if you need one- the welch plug for the frame also.