TTS Tuning Member 7Remmag's Bike

[wurk_truk]

Member 7Remmag is having a bit of trouble getting the hang of how to v-tune.  I want him to use this thread so that the Members here on HTT can help him develop a good and decent tune.

Have at it fellas

[7remmag]

OK ! I gotta give a big thumbs up to Wurk T. for putting up with my stupid a$$ questions and then generously giving more time than I probably deserve.  He might regret this, but I'm going to take advantage of his and all of your expertise with TTS.  I know that I 'm not the only one here that needs help with this and I hope they learn from anything I might be asking.  Or at least you'll have a little humor in your day.

I've already had a lot of help from others here (thanks Mayor) and to the many others I really do appreciate your help.

Right now I'm trying to move my VE tables from MT7 to MT8 and I'm not having much luck.  Thinking maybe I should just start over again from scratch.  I've got 9 Vtunes in on the base calibration and I'll try to copy and paste some of that here so if your interested you know where I stand.

[mayor]

Right now I'm trying to move my VE tables from MT7 to MT8 and I'm not having much luck. 

you can do this one of two ways, you can copy the table using the copy and paste multiple table function (outlined on page 46 of Mastertune's printed help manual), or you can click on your mt7 ve table, hit the rpm square at the top left side to hi-light all the squares, hit the edit copy button, then open another Mastertune program, pick the mt8 that you want to past the file in, then hot edit paste in the appropriate ve table.   

[7remmag]

well I set up and ran another file and thought maybe I would try a different one in the morning.  I started with CPZ176-03 and did all the settings like the V-Tune Procedure manual said AFR to 14.6, Accel enrichment to 0, Decel Enleanment to 0, closed loop bias to 720 in front and rear, and adapt knock to 0.  Started it up but it started at what seemed to be a slow idle which didn't change at all.  Little lope and a little rich, but I didn't make any changes.  Took it for about a 20 minute ride out on a four lane that has a few hills and back.  I hit and got green in a good number of cells up to 60% throttle and around 5500 rpm.   Brought it home and generated a tune, but haven't loaded anything into the ECM.  The table that was generated (below) seemed to have a lot more red than I thought it would.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

yep, that's a lot of red.      open up your Datamaster program, open that last v-tune up, and run the EGR Effect to see if reversion is messing with the lighter throttle.  I suspect that it is.  The EGR Effect is under the view tab.   ais this an mt7 or mt8 file?

[lonewolf]

What exhaust? What parts?

[7remmag]

It's an mt8 file.  So I found the EGR effect TPS analyzer and  it says analysis OK, 47 hits.  Is there some some table I forgot to set.

[7remmag]

Exhaust is stock 2-1-2 from an 09, woods tw6-6 cams with +4 gear, High ratio rockers, kn filter with backing plate.

[mayor]

Is there some some table I forgot to set.

no, the EGR settings affect the ve's to the left of the EGR Effect line.  The base map settings just might not be right for your build.

did you run the cam intake open analyzer? 

there's info on both of these on this thread: http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,35308.150.html

cam intake analyzer is covered on post #157-#160

EGR adjustment is covered from #170 and down 

[lonewolf]

Curiuos why you didn't try DPC176? The ve tables in that map look close to your vtune results. The 258 specs while not a perfect match look better than stock cams.

[mayor]

not seeing your EGR Effects chart, I would still guess it lines up to these lines:

see how the trends are lower on the left side of the line? 

[7remmag]

I guess I didn't know I could, I thought that I was to pick the cal closest to what I have and since DPC 176-03 is more CI with heads, pistons, and the cam I guess it wouldn't look like a good fit to me, but you guys on here can do way more than I can imagine.

[7remmag]

So mayor is that a lack of decel or the fact that I didn't do the camtool

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[7remmag]

So what if I were to do another base map run the same way I did this one with CQD176-03.  I picked three cals to see which one ran better right from the start, thinking that would be easier to tune.  Is that a step in the right direction or a waste of time.  Do all 96" bikes 07 and newer have 25 degree injecters? 

[7remmag]

[quote
Exhaust is stock 2-1-2 from an 09, woods tw6-6 cams with +4 gear, High ratio rockers, kn filter with backing plate.
][/quote]  I always forget to mention High ratio rockers.

[mayor]

I am not a pro-tuner, so take this how ever you like.  I think with the new tools (cam selector and EGR settings) in the .mt8 version of TTS, being close with the starting cal is all that is needed as long as you are willing to put forth the effort.  You have the ability to change just about everything to custom tailor your tune to your bike.  Lonewolf is a pro-tuner, so honestly his opinion carries more weight than mine. Besides, my experience in TTS is still being measured in single digit months.    

So mayor is that a lack of decel or the fact that I didn't do the camtool

likely neither, but possibly the cam intake valve settings.  If the cam settings are correct, then what is being shown there is the effects of the EGR settings.  The EGR setting basically applies offsets to the o2 data that is collected by the ecm in closed loop to account for exhaust gas recirculation.  This is not a new table (it was hidden before), but ability for the end user to change this is a new feature of the mt8 version of TTS.  To learn a little more about EGR, read reply #7 down on this thread: http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,38060.0.html


first, before you go further use the Datamaster camshaft analyzer to determine where you should be set at the cam intake valve setting in the ECM tuning constraints section of Mastertune.  Use the published cam intake close particulars to set the intake valve close setting, just remember to factor in your +4 gear and also that you want the setting to be just after valve close (1~2 degree's or so). 

second, do one more run (after changing or verifying the cam intake close) to try to get more data. You are lacking a lot of good data points to the right side of your EGR Effects analyzer line in the early rpm's, which means that you have nothing to base change decisions off of.   To understand how to collect more data, read reply #5 and reply #12 of this thread (this is a lambda based thread, but the principals is the same): http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,38115.0.html

third, run the EGR Effects Analyzer on your next run.  Take that data and find the VE cells just to the left of that line.  If there are drastic changes between the cell just to the right, then you should think about adjusting your EGR settings.  Here's where things get tricky, since there's no fixed number approach to adjustments.  You just have to adjust, test (v-tune), evaluate (view VE's), and then repeat until you are happy.  To learn more about how this works read reply #19 down on this thread: http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,37810.0.html

[7remmag]

Thanks mayor.  So lonewolf where do you live and how much do you charge to tune. Just kidding I know your not close enough.

[7remmag]

with all this messing around that I'm doing am I doing more damage than good ? I tried doing a camshaft closing analyzer went to intake valve closing and did analyze and got "The CAM analyzer requires data recorded using mt8 tts calbration and the cam tune data selection". 

[rbabos]

well I set up and ran another file and thought maybe I would try a different one in the morning.  I started with CPZ176-03 and did all the settings like the V-Tune Procedure manual said AFR to 14.6, Accel enrichment to 0, Decel Enleanment to 0, closed loop bias to 720 in front and rear, and adapt knock to 0.  Started it up but it started at what seemed to be a slow idle which didn't change at all.  Little lope and a little rich, but I didn't make any changes.  Took it for about a 20 minute ride out on a four lane that has a few hills and back.  I hit and got green in a good number of cells up to 60% throttle and around 5500 rpm.   Brought it home and generated a tune, but haven't loaded anything into the ECM.  The table that was generated (below) seemed to have a lot more red than I thought it would.

I've run into this idle and rich trait when testing different cals for my bike. Basically it's the wrong cal. If the wrong (too high ci constants) area put in or the cam is way off to the cal it will run like this as well. Think about this. You already have the warmup enrichment 0'd out and it's still too rich. That's an indicator something is wrong .
Just loaded an MT8 cal last week and set the constants to the same 130 as it's MT7 equivilent. Ran exactly as you described and O2 log were showing at best in the 2000 range and not switching. Dropped the ci to the actual 113 engine size and it all came together.
You need to try a completely different cal, since this one will go nowhere in the tuning process. Consider not using the 2-1 maps as well. Even though I run a Supertrap the engine runs better with a non 2-1 cal. I don't know why this is but it's how my build behaves.
Ron

[Jeffd]

curious where you have your O2 sensors mounted in the 09 header?  If you 2010-11 sensors mounted in the stock 09 location that could be a problem and if you put them down where stock 10-11 sensors go that could be a problem without the cat to prevent cross talk.  I could be full of it too lol.

[7remmag]

the exhaust is from an 09 touring which is a 2-1-2 system on an 07.  No cats on them, basically got rid of the fake crossover.  Sensors should be fine, just not finding a good base to start from.  I don't think the last one was a good base for me, would like to start with the closest I can get so I don't need to make a lot of adjustments.  I have a tendency to get lost in all the computer stuff,  I guess I thought that the MT8 programs new data would be more like just listing a certain cam like "WOODS TW6 CAMS" instead of trying to determine what cam is closest to handfull of listed.  I would like to find a set up like mine and work from there.  Little things that i ask never seem to get answered for me and sometimes are confusing.

[lonewolf]

I tried doing a camshaft closing analyzer went to intake valve closing and did analyze and got "The CAM analyzer requires data recorded using mt8 tts calbration and the cam tune data selection". 

This part has to be done on the dyno. Set it on 3 and go. On your pic of with all of the red cells the red indicates % of change. I think the cells on the left have gone down and the ones to the right have gone up,just the way the cam works. You can copy the ve tables from the "new" map, paste them into the map you used to make it and then use the "compare to baseline" button to see the direction of change. Like Ron says I have also found the cu in's can be set very close to actual. I agree with Mayor that with the cam tools maybe now the map will come around. I still have the old habit of picking my base map based on the cam as I can copy and paste things like timing tables. I have only done 3 bikes with the MT8's, the last one being mine. Working the egr tables does add to the time, but they do run smoother. I like the new MT8's

[hrdtail78]

"You can copy the ve tables from the "new" map, paste them into the map you used to make it and then use the "compare to baseline" button to see the direction of change."

If you see a trend as it adding across the board to these VE's,  You can always add more manually to the VE table before the next vtune.  Generated tunes will only add or subtract so much.

[7remmag]

does the PE Enable mode need to be set differently than the base when vtuning

[7remmag]

couple of questions
1.  do you need to remove old base map from the ecm when changing to a different one.

2. when adding a +4 gear in your camshaft estimator you add it where.

I'm going to try the DPC176-03 as lonewolf questioned,  as it might be easier for me to start from scratch again verses cutting and pasting.  I can do more of that stuff on my desktop, but this netbook is harder for me to get around in

[wolf_59]

does the PE Enable mode need to be set differently than the base when vtuning

yes, in the tuning constants PE Mode set the value to 10,000 while Vtuning

[hrdtail78]

couple of questions
1.  do you need to remove old base map from the ecm when changing to a different one.

2. when adding a +4 gear in your camshaft estimator you add it where.

I'm going to try the DPC176-03 as lonewolf questioned,  as it might be easier for me to start from scratch again verses cutting and pasting.  I can do more of that stuff on my desktop, but this netbook is harder for me to get around in

1.  No, it is best to Get ECM Info, This just shows things are communicating.  Then Program ECM Cal.

2.  You do the math with published numbers of the cam.  There isn't a spot to do it anywhere else.

After you do the Estimator, I would recommend doing the IVO by idle.

[7remmag]

so the woods tw6 has an
intake open and close of 20 BTDC and 40 ATDC
exhaust open and close of 42 BTDC and 18 ATDC
240 EXHAUST AND INTAKE DURATION
.510 INTAKE AND EXHAUST LIFT

[7remmag]

why do some instructions say to set acceleration enrichment and decel enleanment to 0 and some set up instructions don't mention it and the same with adaptive knock retard.  Is all this suppose to be set to 0 or not.

[streeter1]

Just went through that myself. Doc's instructions indicate to set all to zero, AE, DE and adaptive knock. The TTS manual does not indicate this any where other than the flow chart saying to Zero the AE 

Good luck!!

[7remmag]

OK here's what I did
-changed calibration to DPC176-03-AO.MT8
-set ARF to 14.6
-closed loop bias Front and Rear to 720
-Accel enrichment to 0
-Adaptive knock retard to 0
-Decel enleanment no change
-Changed displacement to 96.8 per calculator
-cam selector to 3 on both open and close
-changed PE mode to 10000
It idled fairly rough at startup and fluttered around 1500 - 2000 until it was warmed up. 
Smelled rich and I about ran out of gas.
                       

[7remmag]

This is what everything looked like after a 20 minute run through a few hills on the highway

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[7remmag]

and here

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[wolf_59]

Looks good for the 1st one, Now that you have a Vtune under your belt it will get easier and you'll understand more about it with each run you make

[7remmag]

I'm a little confused as how to set the cam selector tool with a +4 gear and the high ratio rockers

[mayor]

you need to add 4 degree's to the rotation of the cam, so the stated cam numbers would be IO @ 24 BTDC and IC @ 36 ABDC.  The rockers do affect this a little, but since there's no way of knowing...don't worry about them.  So you now have stated cam timing events, now you use the estimater and determine were to set those settings based on just prior to open and just after close. 

[Steve Cole]

Make sure you set the cam up then run the Cam Data test and set it properly prior to spending the time doing Vtune data collection as any change you make to the Cam selection setup is going to change everything else, so it needs to be done first. The Graph is going to show you where your engine needs to be set. When we were developing this the variations we found were too much to be able to just calculate the numbers, so this is why the testing is needed to get it right.

[7remmag]

Thanks guys!  It sounds kinda complicated, but I'll see if I can get through it. 

Well maybe not so complicated I opened the next calibration that I will load in the ECM went to tools and used the cam estimator put in the numbers and transfered settings 3 and 3 into the calibration.
thanks

I had a question earlier
why do some instructions say to set acceleration enrichment and decel enleanment to 0 and some set up instructions don't mention it and the same with adaptive knock retard.  Is all this suppose to be set to 0 or not.

[mayor]

yes, set the AE and DE tables to zero.  The o2 sensors will not read when either of these tables are in active use mode. Turn the adaptive knock retard off as well, if you leave it one the VE's may not be accurate since the variable rate of timing advance will affect the o2 readings. 

[7remmag]

This is this mornings tune.  I hope 34 degrees won't effect the tune any. 
Any suggestions, ideas, concerns.  I did a cam analysis and cam up with 3 and 3, but wonder if it shouldn't be 2 and 3.
starts fine and idles better from base table.  here are some results.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

I did a cam analysis and cam up with 3 and 3, but wonder if it shouldn't be 2 and 3.

based on what you posted, it looks like 2 is the right answer anyway.  isn't there a slight change at 2? 

[7remmag]

yes there is a slight upward break at 2, but I wasn't sure if I should go with that or go to the bigger change at 3.
so you think I should go with 2 in IVO ?
what can a person do for the IVC leave it and hope it's right,  isn't dyno the only way to know for sure.
If I change the cam again doesn't that wipe out all the VE's again

[mayor]

1. yes there is a slight upward break at 2, but I wasn't sure if I should go with that or go to the bigger change at 3.
so you think I should go with 2 in IVO ?

2. what can a person do for the IVC leave it and hope it's right,  isn't dyno the only way to know for sure.

3.If I change the cam again doesn't that wipe out all the VE's again

this is as new to me as it is you, but here's my thoughts:

1. use the first break to determine where to set the IVO, that's what the manual says.  Your first break is 2

2.  yes, a dyno is the only way to check the IVC settings.  As Steve told me, better to be half right than both wrong (meaning use the IVO tools to determine the IVO setting and the estimator to determine the IVC)

3. yes, very likely they will change.  That is why you determine those settings in the beginning.... and your still early in the game yet, so no worries.  When you move onto changing the EGR tables the VE's will change to the left of the 60 kPa line anyway.

[7remmag]

third and last vtune of the day

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

have you made any adjustments to EGR yet? 

[7remmag]

No I'm not sure what I need to do yet,  This is where I have a tough time making decisions
I changed the IVO to 2 also even though that break in the line was barely noticeable.

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[7remmag]

OK I see that it takes so much TPS to reach 60 kPa MAP, but I don't get the rational behind it or what to do about it.  It's just not very clear to me in the manual.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

I'll see if I can help, but I need better screen shots.  PM sent. 

[mayor]

OK, here's what I came up with:

step 1. run the EGR Effects Analyzer from the v-tune data recording:

this was off of your v-tune run 4.  I found that mine changed very little while I was adjusting my EGR tables.

step 2. use the EGR Effects chart to determine where the EGR values are potentually coming into play:

I drew a line on one side to show the relationship of the VE to the EGR Effects chart, and I drew a line around the pontenially affected cells on the other.  The EGR table will raise or lower the VE's to the left side of that line.  To raise the ve's, you increase the EGR value.  To lower the ve's, you decrease the EGR value.  The goal is nice smooth transitions in VE's in all four directions (up, down, right, left) with all your peaks on the right side of the EGR line.

Keep in mind the EGR table RPM settings do not match the RPM settings of the VE charts. Here's the EGR RPM tables:

Each rpm setting can affect the particular rpm listed and the boxes surrounding it, so keep that in mind when making adjustments. View each EGR adjustement as the center square in a tic tac toe board, any change you make to the center affects all the surrounding squares.  In some areas more than one box might be able to be used to make the adjustments needed.  Both cylinders will need to be adjusted individually, meaning the settings for one will not be transferable to the other (see the front and rear VE charts above).  Notice that there is one a region on the front chart that could use the EGR values lowered in a particular region (3.5-4.5k in this case), as opposed to the rear needing all the EGR values raised.

step 3. Determine how much change is needed for initial change:

Since there is only three RPM's that match up to the EGR table, I decided to use 2k rpm and 4k rpm as the examples.  The principals will be the same, but you will need to make some judgement calls as to the other cells since there may be some overlap in coverage areas when relating the EGR tables to the VE charts. 

For each cell along the EGR line, determine how much needs to be raised or lowered to blend the VE's to be more equal on either side of the EGR line.

click on a particular cell just to the left of the EGR Effects line, in this example we will look at 2k @ 7% TPS:


determine what percentage of increase or decrease that the cell would need to change in order to match up with the cell to the right of the line:

use the increment/decrement function to determine what the percent of change needed is. 

This is new technology so there are no proven trends to follow when making adjustments.  Based on what has been posted so far regarding EGR adjustments, doubling the rate of change in VE's needed is a good starting point.  From this point on, you will need to run a v-tune recording specifically collecting data to the left of the EGR line to at least the very right of the line for each change you make on the EGR table. You will then need to develop a new calibration off of the recording and the calibration used during the recording (basic v-tune methods), and then evaluate the EGR settings from the VE charts that are derived from the V-tune software. The process will be adjust, record v-tune data, evaluate, repeat as needed until you are satisfied with the results (+/- 5% range may be suitable).

The current EGR setting on the rear cylinder at 2k is this:


The percent of change needed at the 2k mark based on the adjusting the VE's on the Rear VE chart was 9%, so we will double that and apply that to the EGR table:


The current VE's at 4K:


The rate of change needed on the left side of the EGR effects line:


The current EGR setting on the rear cylinder at 4k is this:


The percent of change needed at the 4k mark based on the adjusting the VE's on the Rear VE chart was 6%, so we will double that and apply that to the EGR table:


Hopefully this will help you get started.  The process becomes more clear as you make adjustments and gather data.  Remember, adjust, record, evaluate, repeat as needed.  There's no skipping steps..

Step 4. adjust, record changes (v-tune), evaluate, repeat as needed. 

good luck,
mayor

[wolf_59]

Good info Mayor I had it all backwards in my head

[7remmag]

Thanks Mayor I'm gonna see if I can start on it today.  It looks complicated at first, but I'm sure I'll understand it more as I go.
Need to get it done as I am riding to the Summer nationals with some friends on the 19th- 21st of May.

[7remmag]

Does the EGR get closer each time you VTune ?   Therefore by adjusting the problem values as you go you're getting to a corrected value throughout the table sooner.   I guess what I'm asking is whether or not you still eventually get the same end result by just vtuning verses making adjustments.

[rbabos]

Does the EGR get closer each time you VTune ?   Therefore by adjusting the problem values as you go you're getting to a corrected value throughout the table sooner.   I guess what I'm asking is whether or not you still eventually get the same end result by just vtuning verses making adjustments.

Having done it both ways with the mt7 and now the mt8 I can tell you without using the egr tables the vtune will not correctly set the ve's in some engines no matter how many runs you make. It will remain wrong in some areas forever.
I ran the egr on each of the ten runs I did and adjusted on each one. Probably around 8 runs it started to get stable in the low end. Never did happen with the mt7 without egr. When I set it back to original I could not believe how well it ran.
Two things I learned from my recent tune is, some builds need a lot of v runs to dial in and the egr really works. Still was near impossible to get the 60kpa analyzer filled even with tall gear starts and every other gear shifting but got enough info to make an educated guess while viewing the numbers in the ve tables as reference.
Ron

[7remmag]

OK! so I'm a little slow at this, but I guess I just want to get it right.  The 60 kPa is based on the line from the EGR effect TPS analyzer then transfered to the front and rear VE charts .  Correct ?  Then you want a smooth transition from cells on the RIGHT of that said line to the cells on the LEFT also up and down.  Changes can only be made by changing the numbers left of the line, correct ?  When making the changes you change numbers in the EGR-F and EGR-R tables based on what RPM is close to that of problem cells on the VE charts.  With that being said is there any type of matching front and rear ve cells that needs to be done ?
Do I have this right so far ?

[rbabos]

OK! so I'm a little slow at this, but I guess I just want to get it right.  The 60 kPa is based on the line from the EGR effect TPS analyzer then transfered to the front and rear VE charts .  Correct ?  Then you want a smooth transition from cells on the RIGHT of that said line to the cells on the LEFT also up and down.  Changes can only be made by changing the numbers left of the line, correct ?  When making the changes you change numbers in the EGR-F and EGR-R tables based on what RPM is close to that of problem cells on the VE charts.  With that being said is there any type of matching front and rear ve cells that needs to be done ?
Do I have this right so far ?

The way I look at the 60 kpa line, recycle is less or practically non existant at 60 kpa. This would mean the ve's on the right side of the line should be reasonably accurate. Then you want to get the oddball ve's that are to the left of the line closer to a nice stead increase to blend into the ones on the right of the line.
Front and rear ve's will have their own numbers with either one higher than the other. This is normal, so only egr effect each cyls ve's and live with the natural differences between the two.
My rear required next to no adjustment, but the front needed quite a bit from idle to 3k with the most from idle to 2k. All needed an increase in the effect tables. Likely the only time you need to go down is if you went too far up with the adjustment.
It's a long slow abusive process, but seems to cure the problems I had. I still see areas where I could tweek it a bit more but there comes a time where enough is enough as long as it runs good.
Ron

[7remmag]

So based on the line from the relationship of the EGR effects chart and the VE table, I make my changes on the throttle postion table per cell.  Then the cells on the left will match those on the right or will be a smooth transition, meaning close.  Correct ?  So to do this I make my adjustments per cell by highlighting that perticular cell and using the increasement or decreasement buttons to make the changes in order to match cells left of line to those on the right.  Then I can just load this into the ECM or are there changes I make to the RPM EGR effect tables also.

[mayor]

Does the EGR get closer each time you VTune ?   Therefore by adjusting the problem values as you go you're getting to a corrected value throughout the table sooner.   I guess what I'm asking is whether or not you still eventually get the same end result by just vtuning verses making adjustments.

NO, you will not get the same results by just v-tuning.  You can get a more than suitable tune with out adjusting the EGR tables by just v-tuning, but EGR table adjustments and subsequent v-tunes allow for less drastic changes in the VE tables which should mean a smoother running motorcycle.  The EGR table affects how the ECM interprets the values supplied by the o2 sensors in relation to the posted values on the VE tables. 

In respect to making EGR adjustments, you can quit at anytime and have a decent tune as long as your v-tune VE charts have mostly white and light pink cells. 

1. The 60 kPa is based on the line from the EGR effect TPS analyzer then transfered to the front and rear VE charts .  Correct ? 

2. Then you want a smooth transition from cells on the RIGHT of that said line to the cells on the LEFT also up and down. 

3. Changes can only be made by changing the numbers left of the line, correct ? 

4. When making the changes you change numbers in the EGR-F and EGR-R tables based on what RPM is close to that of problem cells on the VE charts.  With that being said is there any type of matching front and rear ve cells that needs to be done ?

1. yes, but keep in mind the 60 kPa line is just a reference to allow you to see where the potential corrections would be seen.

2. yes, you want smooth transitions left to right and lower to higher rpm's.

3. In reading what you posted, I'm not sure if your talking about making changes to the VE tables or EGR tables.  All EGR correction adjustments are done in the EGR tables, the VE table adjustments are jut to give you reference points. When you adjust the EGR tables and then v-tune to get new values, the majority of the changes will occur to the left of the line.  You may see some chnages to the right side, but they will be on a much smaller scale. 

4. the front and rear should be looked at indepenantly. Keep in mind that the relationship to the intake and the exhaust is different, so the VE's will likely be different. 

[streeter1]

So based on the line from the relationship of the EGR effects chart and the VE table, I make my changes on the throttle postion table per cell.  Then the cells on the left will match those on the right or will be a smooth transition, meaning close.  Correct ?  So to do this I make my adjustments per cell by highlighting that perticular cell and using the increasement or decreasement buttons to make the changes in order to match cells left of line to those on the right.  Then I can just load this into the ECM or are there changes I make to the RPM EGR effect tables also.

All your your adjustments to smooth VE table are done with EGR table only. Adjust the EGR table in the areas that correspond to the left of your 60kpa line, load the new cal. run Vtune to veiw the results and go from there. 

[7remmag]

So the tables that I'm referring to are... If I go to mastertune and load the last generated file that I am about ready to load into the bike.  Go to table selection and select VE front or rear cyl., do I make changes there or go to EGR Effect Front or rear cylinders further down on the drop list? 

I noticed that I can make changes to the cells in the VE tables if I highlight them, is there a reason or purpose for being able to change them there.

[mayor]

1. So the tables that I'm referring to are... If I go to mastertune and load the last generated file that I am about ready to load into the bike.  Go to table selection and select VE front or rear cyl., do I make changes there or go to EGR Effect Front or rear cylinders further down on the drop list? 

2. I noticed that I can make changes to the cells in the VE tables if I highlight them, is there a reason or purpose for being able to change them there.

1. you are making changes to the EGR tables, and those changes affect how the v-tune data recording interprets the values to populate the VE tables.

2. Yes, changes can be made to the VE tables, but this is not how you adjust for EGR.  Adjusting these VE values is for if you tune in open loop using an external AFR measuring device or from blending outside edges of cells not hit during the v-tuning process.  The EGR table values work in conjunction with the data collected by the o2 sensors during the v-tune process to populate the VE cells.  You can not skip any steps. 

Step 1. analyse a previous data collection recording (datamaster v-tune run) to determine where the EGR Effect line is.

Step 2. evaluate a previous v-tune ve chart to determine where the EGR line is affecting the VE's.

Step 3. Determine what changes to the EGR tables need done based the EGR Effects line considering that you want to adjust the VE relationship between right to left and lower to higher rpm ranges.

Step 4. adjust the EGR Tables, record changes (v-tune), evaluate, repeat as needed. 

[N-gin]

Lots of usful info here.
I have questions.
After you v-tune, do you do the EGR first or the timing tables?
Also if you do the timing tables last, you have to do another v-tune for the new timing tables?

SO in other words V-tune, EGR, Timing, V-tune, EGR, timing, and so on till it is darn near perfect?
Or V-tune, Timing tables, V-tune, EGR, Timing tables.

[mayor]

I have questions.
1. After you v-tune, do you do the EGR first

2. or the timing tables?

3. Also if you do the timing tables last, you have to do another v-tune for the new timing tables?

1. you do EGR while you are v-tuning.  The EGR tables affect how the ECM is interpretting data, so you do one v-tune to check the EGR Effects line...then adjust the EGR tables, v-tune, evaluate, make changes to the EGR tables, v-tune, and repeat until satisfied with results.

2. unless you have a pretty good idea of what you are doing, advancing timing should only be done after you are finished v-tuning.  Retarding timing can be done during the v-tune process if you hear audible ping, and know where it was coming from on the timing tables.

3. if you change the timing tables, you should run at least one more v-tune to verify that your timing didn't change the ve's radically.  As a rule of thumb- advancing will lean out an area, retarding will richen up an area. 

[7remmag]

AHHHHHHHHH   I am NOT getting the corralation between the numbers on the VE table and the Numbers on the EGR tables..  for example I have say on the 2000 rpm line at 5% TP 73,  7% 81.5 is left of 60kPa, and 10% 91.5 is right of 60kPa.  So I figure it takes about 12% increase in 81.5 to match 91.5  now if I go to the EGR table and go to 2000 rpm I have 0.625 .   What is 81.5 or 0.625 and what do they have in common.  Sometimes I think I got it and then now I feel like a frickin idiot.   

[mayor]

no worries, you just have to look at it differently.  if it takes you x amount of % change to smooth out a ve area, double that % and apply it to the EGR table in that location.  Say with your example you have 81.5 to the left of the line and 91.5 to the right and that's a 12% difference, now go to 2k on the EGR table and increase the value there by 24%.  Once you make your adjustments, v-tune again to see if you are on the right track.  any clearer?

[7remmag]

That makes sense, but doesn't the EGR table need to be in some what of an order also.  Do you just highlight that cell at 2k and increase the 24% to make the 0.625 into  0.775 can it be that simple.

[mayor]

yes, it can be that simple; however, this is just a starting point.  The difficulty comes in when you don't have a matching cell in the VE tables to line up to the EGR table rpm setting.  You just have to use your best judgement as to what particular cell in the EGR table might be the most affective at adjusting the area you want adjusted, since there is some cases where more than one cell could potentially used to smooth out an area. 

[7remmag]

I only had three areas on the front cyl that I did anything with and they were at the 2000, 2800 and 4400 rpm marks.  On the rear I had to do five and they were at 1200, 2000, 2400, 3200 and 4000.  The marks on the 2000 and 2400 seemed a little close, but the way the numbers matched up I really had no other choice. It would have been a little closer or way to far away. Some of the cells in the higher RPM's I left alone since a few here and there were still yellow.  I'll probably program it into the bike tonight and do a Vtune run. 

One other thing was I used the VE tables to help with the percentages, but I changed the numbers back to where they were when I was done because you had said that those numbers were for dyno and filling in empty cells. correct ?

thanks

[mayor]

I only had three areas on the front cyl that I did anything with and they were at the 2000, 2800 and 4400 rpm marks.  On the rear I had to do five and they were at 1200, 2000, 2400, 3200 and 4000.  The marks on the 2000 and 2400 seemed a little close, but the way the numbers matched up I really had no other choice. It would have been a little closer or way to far away. Some of the cells in the higher RPM's I left alone since a few here and there were still yellow.  I'll probably program it into the bike tonight and do a Vtune run. 

sounds like you are getting it figured out   

One other thing was I used the VE tables to help with the percentages, but I changed the numbers back to where they were when I was done because you had said that those numbers were for dyno and filling in empty cells. correct ?

well yes that what I said, but there's a little more to it than that general statement.     the point I was trying to make was don't just adjust the EGR tables and the VE tables, and call it good enough. You have to verify the new settings with data feedback (v-tune run). 

On my bike, when I made large changes to the EGR tables I also pre-adjusted the potential VE table areas just so the amount of change would be less, and this meant blending to the left in the affected area as well.  Eventhough the bike is getting v-tuned in closed loop, big changes to the EGR tables will affect the smoothness of the bike while v-tuning until the ECM learns the new offsets required (I think JustDennis experienced this his last v-tune).  The v-tune process can do all this for you, so I wouldn't recomend this unless you have a pretty good understanding of what might be the result of your change.

hth,
mayor

[7remmag]

Dang Mayor,  Just when I think I'm getting it you throw in a new wrench. 

[mayor]

just take baby steps, and you should be fine.  The v-tune process will do the rest.   

[7remmag]

If you get a run with to little data can you still use it or should you delete it ?

[mayor]

There was a few times that I collected v-tune data and my usb connection came loose and stopped the data collection.  I used those v-tune runs because I had a good bit of green in places.     It's not a good idea to do this if you don't follow up with another run though, since even the yellow cells will get transferred during the V-tune calibration.  Just use your best judgement whether the data collected helps fill in holes of your tune, or if the data collected is in easily collectable areas (say idle, cruising cells  ). 

[mayor]

here's some the data from your v-tune run 8:

EGR Effects chart:


estimated affected areas on your VE tables:


looks like you're getting the EGR's dialed in pretty good. 

looks like the areas that you might want to focus a little more on:

front- 1,600 rpm, 2,000 rpm, 2,400 rpm, and 2,800 rpm. 

rear-  1,600 rpm, 2,000 rpm, 2,400 rpm, 2,800 rpm, 3,200 rpm, 3,600 rpm , and 4,000 rpm

Your close now, but try adding 20% more to the above ranges and see what that does to the VE's.

you might want to reduce the front egr values a little more, maybe something like an addition 10% at 4,000 rpm, and 20% at 4,400 & 5,200 rpms

you're doing good, just hang in there you almost have it.   

[7remmag]

Thanks a lot Mayor, I'm going to owe you big time for all the help.  I've done one run since you posted this and didn't seem to make a lot of change.  I keep trying to get my VE charts and stuff on here but seems to be a trick I'm missing.  Was ok when using the camara and then down loading.

Thanks again

[mayor]

I host everything I post on photobucket.   That way I'm not restricted on the size of the file, plus it doesn't take up site storage space. Send me your last v-tune run and the cal that was ran on it when you get a chance.

[mayor]

here's the charts from v-tune run 9 which was run yesterday:

EGR Effects:

Ron is going to be jealous on how much 60 kPa data you were able to collect.

The EGR line transferred to the V-tune VE charts:

I'm interpreting the line a little differently this time than I did this morning.  probably not a big deal either way.   

If I saw correctly, there was no changes to EGR tables between v-tune run 8 & 9 right?  Let me study the two charts, and I'll post a recommendation here in a little bit.   

[rbabos]

here's the charts from v-tune run 9 which was run yesterday:

EGR Effects:

Ron is going to be jealous on how much 60 kPa data you were able to collect.

The EGR line transferred to the V-tune VE charts:

I'm interpreting the line a little differently this time than I did this morning.  probably not a big deal either way.   

If I saw correctly, there was no changes to EGR tables between v-tune run 8 & 9 right?  Let me study the two charts, and I'll post a recommendation here in a little bit.   

Not really jealous. Not enough data between 1k and 2 k on this one either to be acurate.
Ron

[mayor]

but he has a boat load between 2k-3k, which is where most spend the majority of their time. 

[rbabos]

but he has a boat load between 2k-3k, which is where most spend the majority of their time.

True enough , but most drivability issues for some engines are right in the blank area between 1-2k. The hardest most miserable area to tune with some cams. With some cams, maybe a non issue, but it's made my life a living hell to tame this region with my engine.
Ron

[7remmag]

Hey Mayor sorry about not getting to my email soon enough, I sure would have liked to use that data you sent me.  Looks like you spent alot of time on it.  I followed some of your suggestions that you sent me from the previous run , I added 20% to the 1200-2800 areas and wasn't sure if I  should but I did deduct 10% from the 4000, 4400 and 5200 areas on the Front table.  On the rear table I added 20% to the 1600-3600 areas and 10% to the 4000 and 4400 areas.  This time when I made this last run I really worked the 1k and 2k areas hoping for more data and then I tryed to get a little more info in the rest.  Looked a lttle better I guess.  Let me know

[mayor]

no worries 7mm, you're doing plenty well enough on your own.  you're doing real good.   

here's the EGR Effects from run 10:

I think you must have taken Ron's comment about not enough 60 kPa data between 1-2k as a challenge.   

the VE tables from the Vtune software looked like this:

I might be off square here or there, since it's not the easiest to figure some of those areas out.     I think you're on the right track, just keep doing what you've been doing.  Everything looks like it's flowing nice, and it looks like you have it narrowed down to just a few problem areas. 

before you do anymore changes, let me send you your cal 11 with the outside edges blended.  That should help smooth out your 3d charts some.     It's getting late, so I'll get that to you in the morning. 

[7remmag]

I wasn't making a challenge since it's kinda hard for me to challenge anyone with more knowledge about bikes than myself, but figured it must be an important area to work on.  I noticed that it wasn't an area I seemed to be getting to and it is tough to get numbers there.  I won't be doing anything till after 5pm tomorrow.  Thanks for the help.
Later
Mike

[7remmag]

I think you should be fine with the adjustments I made, but I wouldn't go any more until you switch the safety features back on and do data recordings.    Mayor should I turn on the all the safety features now before I download the timing table ?  Do I turn on all that I turned off like the  decel and accel enrichment tables, knock ?

[mayor]

I think you should be able to vtune it as us

[wurk_truk]

to do timing runs, I leave everything off, except AKC,  and do the runs and add or subtract timing as needed.  But THEN I turn it ALL back on and look again for any timing being pulled.

Remember... if you do in fact change any timing because of the AKC... you will need to walk it back and forth by doing a v-tune after any timing changes... then do another timing data run to double check.

Timing alters VEs, so we ALWAYS want to keep our VEs up to date as we go through all of this, OK?

Mayor?  Did you do timing as outlined in the TTS instructions?  Get them ALL on ping threshold then back off 3*?  I wasn't too thrilled with this, but am now comfortable with it as a system.  Tuning the timing right now is way cool, because it IS cool.  Once VEs and timing are set... if in the summer it starts to ping... one does NOT go to timing or VE tables but uses temp correction instead.  THAT is pretty cool.

I realize I may be out of synch with the thread on this post but wanted to thro it in for others.

[7remmag]

Hey Truk how 's it going bud.  Ok guys this is what I'm doing I loaded the timing file you sent Mayor and changed nothing else.  I'm going to run like I would any other tune.  One question I have is when I generate new data.  Just like any other time? 
Later

[mayor]

Ok guys this is what I'm doing I loaded the timing file you sent Mayor and changed nothing else.  I'm going to run like I would any other tune.  One question I have is when I generate new data.  Just like any other time? 
Later

you have two choices adjust the non-timing adjusted map and adjust the EGR tables more, or run the slightly advanced timing one and leave the the EGR as is.  Either way, just run a v-tune.   

[mayor]

Mayor?  Did you do timing as outlined in the TTS instructions? 

no, I used the illadvised mayor "looks like a little timing can be added here" method.    

I sent 7mm two cals, one was his last cal derived from his last v-tune which I blended the VE's around the edges and the other was the same cal with a little more advance in some of the light throttle areas.   I gave him the option, use the no adjusted timing map and play with the EGR tables a little more or use the one that I added some timing and see what that does to the VE's before adding more EGR adjustments.   

[7remmag]

YOU didn't tell me about the ILL advised Mayors methodology before you gave me the choice.  Looks like I need to change my name to 7Guineapigs.  OK I'm going out to generate the tune BRB.

[mayor]

no worries 7mm    I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.    

I just had to say illadvised since if I described my methodology as SWAG (scientific wild ass guess) that might have made you nervous.     trust me, it will be fine.   

[7remmag]

I like that SWAG that's pretty much me on a day to day.  You got mail

[Hilly13]

Great thread fella's 

It's the bestest Mastertune school this forum.

[7remmag]

Mayor I compared the ve table that I generated and generated one from the file you sent and the vtune data and didn't see a lot of difference.  Some of the yellow cells on the outer edges where a little different.

[mayor]

Keep in mind, you have to use the calibration that was run during the vtune recording to generate the V-tune. If you used yours during the v-tune recording process, mine will not produce accurate results.   

I had the ouside edges blended closer to the trends that you were running, so that the yellow boxes might have been closer to the last good cell if you would have ran that calibration. I also flattened out the rich peak area that you have in your early rpm's on the higher map area.  I didn't touch anything that was generated by good data, only the yellow boxes and the cells on the outside of the yellow boxes.  If you would have run the map I sent, this would have been done but you will need to do this on the map you generated tonight.  Those cells that you're not hitting are important, even if you don't actually use them.   Plus you need to pay attention to the spiked VE area that you have on both cylinders from 1,250-2,000 in the heavier MAP ranges.   


Here's the latest EFR Effects from run 11:


Here's your Vtune VE's from run 11:

[7remmag]

I did load your calibration in to the bike and ran a vtune on your timing cal that you sent me, but it didn't come up in my mastertune file when I went to generate and I used the 11 file that I had from yesterday.  When I thought about it I should have generated it with the timing file that you  sent me.    I couldn't figure out how to get it from my email to the V-tune so I could generate the VE tables.

[7remmag]

this is the file that I loaded

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[7remmag]

this vtune data was ran from the above file, but of course it's to big for the file and I can't attach it here, but sent it to your email before.

VTuneData-011newtiming.DM3

These are the 2 that should be generated and I should still be able to do that since I haven't loaded anything into the bike.  Correct

[mayor]

ok, so you did use cal 11 w/the timing change for the run but generated cal 12 from your 11 correct? 

here's how the blended cal and the non blended cal affected the 3D ve charts when both were combined with your v-tune recording 11:

Front 3D VE's no blending:


Front 3D VE's with the blending:


Rear 3D VE's no blending:


Rear 3D VE's with the blending:


I think your upper rpm ranges might be a touch rich with the blending that I did, but you didn't have any data in those ranges over your last sveral v-tunes so I just guessed at it.     No worries though.   

so, what's next?  I'm thinking timing.    You need to vtune after your final timing changes anyway, so you might as well jump in now.  If you're ready to jump into the deep end, convert the attached v-tune cal over to a regular use cal by resetting your AE, DE, AFR tables, and enable the knock retard.  Leave the PE mode disabled for now.  Load the converted file back into the bike, and go record a data run (I like the generic data type). 

When recording your run, make sure your riding the bike as if it's your least favorite neighbor's bike and they're not watching.     The goal is for you to hit every imaginable RPM and MAP range, shouldn't be too hard right.  You need to run the rpm's up at wide open in different gears, lug the thing in the early rpms and in passing type situations, and generally do everything you were taught not to do.  Then e-mail my the data recording and the cal used during the recording, and I will host it on Box.net and post it...and we'll see what to do from there. 

While you are recording data, you also need to be collecting data.  Pay attention to the engine smoothness in the various gears at the same rpm's.  Remember, MAP range is essentially load based and that can be controlled by your gear selection.  Take for instance- if you find 1.5k is smooth in 4th, but not 2nd..then we may have to look specifically at the timing in your light MAP ranges in the 1.5k range.  This is why it is important that you very your gear selection while you are recording data.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

just need to get it in my head how the timing and ve work together now.

when you increase timing the engine typically needs more fuel to reach the set afr (the constant) therefore the VE is increased in that particular area (the variable).  The amount of change might be large or it might be small.  Since your ve's were trending low in certain areas, I was suggesting to adjust the timing (advance) then check the VE's later (through vtuning).  At this point, I think you should start working on timing with all the safety measures in place (except PE mode), then go back to v-tuning for a final once over. 

decreasing timing generally has the opposite affect (engine demands less fuel), so I get a little less concerned with areas that I have to pull timing from when it comes to remapping the VE's. 

[wurk_truk]

Hey Truk how 's it going bud.  Ok guys this is what I'm doing I loaded the timing file you sent Mayor and changed nothing else.  I'm going to run like I would any other tune.  One question I have is when I generate new data.  Just like any other time? 
Later

I'm doing well.  Got the Rat up and running and that makes everything all good, Buddy.  I see that the TTS Mafia (Koolaid Gang)has you well onto a nice tune, too!

[7remmag]

I don't want to screw this part up so when you do the AFR table, the top table on the drop down list .... do "I SET TO BASELINE"  or "SET TO ORIGINAL"

[mayor]

set to original. 

set to baseline is what you use if you want to go back to what the file was saved as.  Say for instance you make a bunch of changes but you don't like the looks of what you did, then you click on a cell or entire table and click set to baseline to go back to the "as saved" setting. 

[7remmag]

so on this table that you sent, everything is already set.  It looks like all is enabled except for PE which is at 10000.  Then all I need to do is load and go ?

[mayor]

no, the calibration I posted on reply #97 is set up for v-tuning.  You have to change it to a normal calibration (reset AE, DE, AFR tables, and adaptive spark retard).

[7remmag]

Well I think I got it right, but I took off and it started looking like weather moving in so I got about 15 miles out of town and the weather turned to total sh&% and there should be a lot of higher rpms and roll on passing in various gears and speeds and it will do 110 pretty easy.  I did notice what seemed to be a little rough around 3000-3200 noticable in the lower and middle gears.  Overall it was pretty responsive, went from a rolling start to riding it like my worst neighbors bike when he wasn't looking.  It makes ya smile a little, for stock exhaust anyway. I got back in the garage just in time.  high winds, hail and tornado watch/warnings

[mayor]

the calibration you ran was not set up for regular riding.  It looks like you enabled the knock retard but did not have the knock retard table reset, and left everything else in v-tune mode (AFR, AE, and DE).  This will makes the data you collected be mostly unusable.   

I think you need to run a v-tune again before going further, and this time focus on collecting data in the heavier throttle range of 2,500-3,500 rpms.  You was pulling timing there, and it looks like your VE's are much lower in that area than than surrounding areas (although, who's to say that this was real because nothing was set right). Download the cal posted on reply#97 and v-tune that file. Focus on getting more data at the right side of the chart. 

[mayor]

ok..back to our regularly scheduled program. I sent you a new calibration based from your latest recording.  Load that up and do a recording when you get a chance.  Sorry for the delay.  I'm on vacation, so my wife has been limiting my lap top internet access.    

[7remmag]

I was about to post a question about timing.  I noticed on datamaster that I was having anywhere from a 2 - 8 degree retard mostly around the 20% TPS at 2500 to 3500 rpm.  When you see retard like this is it considered  a "pull from timing" ?  Is this the cause of "ping" and does it get worse with temprature increase ?  It seems like everything I'm doing is in cool weather 40 to 60 degrees, what happens when temps start running in the 80's and 90's ?  or two up with a trailer ?

[mayor]

I was about to post a question about timing.  I noticed on datamaster that I was having anywhere from a 2 - 8 degree retard mostly around the 20% TPS at 2500 to 3500 rpm.  When you see retard like this is it considered  a "pull from timing" ? 

timing being pulled is due to one of two things- too much timing advance, or too lean of air fuel ratios.  At this point we have to assume that the afr is at least in the ball park since you v-tuned the bike.  I say assume, since there isn't a way to know for sure.  Since we are assuming that the AFR is in the ballpark, then we are adjusting the timing.  The only reason not to assume that timing would be the culprit is if the changes needed would be well out of the base calibration trends or well out of the current calibration trends in the surround cells.  At this point, the changes are still with in a general tolerance so...no worries.

Is this the cause of "ping" and does it get worse with temperature increase ?  It seems like everything I'm doing is in cool weather 40 to 60 degrees, what happens when temps start running in the 80's and 90's ?  or two up with a trailer ?

you have a benefit to be adjusting timing when it's cool, that way when it's hot you know to adjust the spark temperature correction table.  This keeps the timing advanced enough when it's cool to maximise the efficiency.

You load on the bike increases with a trailer, but that is what the MAP adjustment for timing is for.  As long as you recording as many MAP ranges as you can in as many rpm's as you can, the timing will be fine with or without the trailer.  You did a great job recording the data the last run, do the same and you'll be that much closer. 

[7remmag]

Thanks for the info Mayor.  I'll get that map loaded right away, but it's raining here now so will wait till this afternoon to make a run.  Enjoy your day.
Later  7

[mayor]

here's 7MM's latest data recording:
http://www.box.net/shared/so31accioz

here's a quote from 7mm on the recording:

heres a new one, I noticed that it was kind of rough or would lunge around 1800-2000 rpm in the lower 3 gears. other than that it would go to the rev limiter easily in the first four gears and to around xxx mph in 5th (closed course of course). Not so much against the wind, but seemed to roll on throttle smoothly above 2400 rpm.

that recording was run with the attached calibration. 

7mm, I'll review it during my next break from vacation and send you a new map to try if changes are needed.    



[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[7remmag]

Actually I think I might leave it where it is for now and see what it's like during my upcoming trip.  You told me to watch for areas that may be rough in certain areas and in certain gears, well that little area was all I really noticed and it wasn't that much.  I think I'll ride it awhile and just see if that is really of concern or just in my head.  I'm going to take it for another ride today,  more of a cruise and see what it's like just going for a normal ride.  I'm impressed with the way it's running right now and am not sure we're going to squeeze much more out of it.  I imagine I should run another vtune at some time to see if there are any changes in the VE tables or not.  Also! are there things I need to change back, safety features, PE mode or such.  I'd like to run it on a dyno, just to see what it's doing with the current setup.
Later 7

[7remmag]

This was the dyno I had done with the same cam set up only running a PCIII with 02 eliminators, stock 07 head pipes and wild pig slipons.  I was never happy with this tune and thought it should be more.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

Actually I think I might leave it where it is for now and see what it's like during my upcoming trip.  You told me to watch for areas that may be rough in certain areas and in certain gears, well that little area was all I really noticed and it wasn't that much.  I think I'll ride it awhile and just see if that is really of concern or just in my head.  I'm going to take it for another ride today,  more of a cruise and see what it's like just going for a normal ride.  I'm impressed with the way it's running right now and am not sure we're going to squeeze much more out of it.  I imagine I should run another vtune at some time to see if there are any changes in the VE tables or not.  Also! are there things I need to change back, safety features, PE mode or such.  I'd like to run it on a dyno, just to see what it's doing with the current setup.
Later 7

slow down there cowboy     you were pulling timing in a few places on that run, so you still need to run a different calibration.  I haven't been adding timing to the cals created from your data recordings, I've been removing it in your mid- MAP (60 kPa) ranges in the 2.5k-3k ranges.  From what I saw on your recordings, you didn't pull any wide open throttle timing...but I did not advance the timing there.  I knew you were limited with time, so I didn't want to commit you to working in that area.   I'll send you a new calibration this morning, if you don't want to use it that's fine...but you should. 

[7remmag]

Hey Mayor
No that's not a problem, I'll load it and take it for a ride.  Don't get me wrong, I'm very pleased with the way this tune has gone and the way the bike is running so far.  Sometimes when I feel something I get to thinking it's in my head  :banghead:and maybe it is.  Like I said in the last program I had dyno'd I was never happy with it and this seems better already.  I'm off today so will give it a run and send it.
Later 7

[mayor]

Just hang in there, we're getting close. Your wide open runs looked good,  I haven't adding any there yet. I figure it's best to get your normal riding ranges dialed in first.

[7remmag]

   It's pretty nice out so I'll go load and go.  Later

[mayor]

well, you're still pulling timing.  I looks like you are mostly pulling timing when you are in open loop mode (leads my to believe it's an afr issue), so I'm thinking you may have to try to get a more thorough v-tune run in to check the ve's.  I'll post the recording and the calibration so that others might chime in.  I'm worried that we are removing timing to correct an AFR issue.  Hopefully someone else will review the data and agree or suggest to continue with timing. 

here's the latest recording:
http://www.box.net/shared/jhs3anflz7

the cal used should be attached to this post. 

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[wurk_truk]

Going one record or two before the timing being pulled...  looks like on the front there are two areas that timing is being pulled...  really low rpm at 50-60 MAP... 1400 to 2100.  And again at 2700-3100 at 50-60 MAP    I would try to get better VEs for lower areas and try 1/2 a * less at 2700 and 3000 for 50 and 60 map.

Rear looks like about 2500 to 3000 at 60 map.  try 1/2* less 2500 to 3000 at 50and 60 map, plus another 1/2 degree at 2700 @ 60 map. 

Pull the timing and THEN do a handful of v-tune runs.  See if timing pulls disappear...  if so, THEN try to put a bit at a time back in until the AKC pulls it again.

I think its a combo of VEs AND ping.

[7remmag]

So you guys think I should do another vtune tomorrow.  If so then I need to turn off the accel, decel and knock retard correct ?  What areas do you think I need to concentrate on or any thing special I should try to work on.

[wurk_truk]

I do, but for you?  I would await a map from Mike like you have been doing.  THAT seems to be working very well.

I was actually telling Mike what I thought... know what I mean?   Me, myself, I wouldn't alter the map to my suggestions and send it to you, because I am unsure if the actual map he posted was already changed or needed to be changed.  See?  HE has all of this in HIS head...  not me or my head.

I'm glad this is working well, ya know.

[7remmag]

  gotcha. 

[mayor]

ok, thought about it over night and I think I have a plan. I reluctant to pull more timing, since we're trending well out of the base calibration at this point.  I reviewed the v-tune runs you posted, and it looks like you had good data to the last runs...but my guess is your build was building efficiency as the throttle was opening in some of those areas causing a lean area as soon as the bike transitions from closed to open loop.  The problem is probably in linear blending (which I did  ).  I'm going to data that you had before the blending and combine that with the current ve tables to see if some of the areas is substantially different.  I should have you a new cal to try soon.   

[mayor]

OK, I took an old pre-blending cal and combined it with the blended from 10% tps over and from zero rpm on down to 4k.  I kept the higher of the VE's between the two, but I did trim some of the real high ve's on the outside edges though.  I also added back the timing that I trimmed, and we'll start the recording again.  This should be a good test to see if the ve's was the problem. 


attached is the cal that I sent 7mm this morning. 

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

7mm made another data recording with similar results, timing being pulled in the 60 kPa ranges from 2-3.5k.  Although, knock retard was happening just at the transition from closed loop to open loop in just about every case, so I feel almost certain that the timing being pulled was related to the AFR.  I reviewed some of the v-tunes that 7mm posted and ended up adding to the ve's in many of the locations that the timing was being pulled based on previously measured results..plus a little trend following.  The other notable thing was there was I noticed very limited data was collected for many of the affected areas during v-tuning, which is not good since there is a considerable time spent in the areas that were left untuned during the v-tune process.

I also noticed that in some places when the rear timing was pulling, the rear timing was already more advanced than the front so I copied the front timing in some of the troubled areas and applied it to the rear timing tables.  With any luck, this next cal will actually get us closer being able to start adding some timing in places.    

the latest recording can be found here:
http://www.box.net/shared/nbe01pdqbp

I think we're on the right track now.  Hopefully 7mm will get some good results with the latest calibration.

the latest calibration should be attached.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[7remmag]

hey thanks Mayor, I'll get that loaded and take it for a ride after work tonight. 

[7remmag]

You got mail and PM 

[wurk_truk]

Talked to Ron Dickey today at length on various subjects.

Here is something I would try out and tell us what happens.  Swap the spark plugs for some from a VRod... which are the next step colder and should still run the iON sense very well.  Ron feels that as we increase the size of our engines... we should get cooler plugs.  His theory is that the hotter plugs can tend to get really hot under load and 'trick' the ION sensing into thinking ping is about to happen.

I'd like to see you guys try that.

[7remmag]

Hey Truk,  would like to try that, but right now I'm getting ready to take off for a trip on friday then be back on monday.  Mayor has been going way out of his way to help me out here.  I'm lost on all the timing stuff and don't even know how to catch up right now, so am just doin' what he tells me to do.  Right now I gotta get back to packing and then hit the sack for work tomorrow.  Sounds like my next data run is gonna be in the rain and then anything after that will be on the road to Kansas in the rain. 
Later 7 

[mayor]

7mm made another run today, with the same results.  Pulling timing around 3,000 at 20% tps and 60 kPa.  What I saw was the timing was being pulled 1 to 2 frames ahead of when the system went to 14.4 afr, which would be right at the transition to open loop. For your next calibration I stretched the close loop out a cell further in the afr table and adjusted a few more ve's richer in the problem areas.  This should be fine if you don't get a chance to record before your trip since the areas that are flagging a knock retard should remain in closed loop. 

Since following trendlines and blending didn't quite do the trick this last time, I think our next step when you get back from your trip has to be a more thorough v-tuning- with particular focus on trying to get good data from 20%-40% tps from 2,250-3,500.  Right now I'm just guessing on what the values should be, it would be much easier if we knew for sure.  I think once we get the ve's dialed in right, we can start adding timing but for now most of the original timing tables were left untouched.  I

for those following along, here's the latest scan datarecording:
http://www.box.net/shared/mqm5t4jfiq

the cal that was run during the calibration is attached. 

7mm, I'll send you your new file so you have it in an e-mail. 

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[7remmag]

Hey Mayor!  How much work is it to do a Vtune.  I might be able to do a run tonight if needed.  I'm not afraid to ride in the rain  Then could load another data run on my way to KS. and get that sent to ya.  Tell me what you want me to do.

[mayor]

if you want to do a couple of v-tunes today, I can send you a vtune capable cal to use in three minutes.     focus on getting as much different throttle ranges from 2-4k as you can (using all the gears at your disposal  )

[strokerjlk]

Talked to Ron Dickey today at length on various subjects.

Here is something I would try out and tell us what happens.  Swap the spark plugs for some from a VRod... which are the next step colder and should still run the iON sense very well.  Ron feels that as we increase the size of our engines... we should get cooler plugs.  His theory is that the hotter plugs can tend to get really hot under load and 'trick' the ION sensing into thinking ping is about to happen.

I'd like to see you guys try that.

didnt you run colder plugs on your 107? I remember Ron saying the same thing when he seen your 106 parts.

[wurk_truk]

Yes and I used the VRod plugs from Harley Dealer.

I ended up with two very small places that had timing pulled... 1/2* less and timing issues were gone.

But...............  I don't know if the bike wouldn't have came out the exact same way with BT plugs...  Didn't try that.

This COULD be a good time to try back-to-back runs with only the plugs being different.

Last couple of years... I used "Red' to pull service calls when it was nice out.  Tomorrow looks good for that if I time it right and get south of Columbus early morning...  I'm going to take the Rat out for ITS first set of calls tomorrow if the weather holds.  I bolted a bag to the unused TP rack. 

I have three calls in Cinci/Dayton area.  Saturday is going to be Sunny and 80*!!!!!

Frickin tired of rain.

[mayor]

7mm made a v-tune run yesterday, where he focused on getting more data in the problem areas.  This was his histogram:


here's the difference on the rear cylinder from run 012-002 (from reply #110) compared to the ve's generated from the latest vtune run:

the areas that he was pulling timing were asking for more fuel (~3k around 20%).  The change wasn't quite as much I as thought we would see.  If I'm understanding the math that hrdtail posted on another thread, the cell at 3,500 and 25% throttle was .3:1 leaner than the clb setting.  This doesn't sound like much, but it's hard to ignore that the timing was being pulled as soon as the bike transitioned from closed to open loop in this area.  I'm not sure we can say that the reason it was pulling timing was due to these cells needing more fuel, but at least these results are a good indication that it may have been an issue.  Next step, another data run in the future to verify results. 

[Sporty 48]

Mayor, at 261*, that engine temperature is high, right?
Could that be a factor?

[mayor]

yes that's high, but not out of the norm.  If you look over the data recordings, the timing was being pulled within 1-2 frames from switching from 14.6 (closed loop) to 14.4 (open loop).  I think that since this trend was quite evident, heat was probably not the issue.  Afterall, the timing was fine when the ecm was actively controlling the afr (in closed loop).  Since the ve's were increased in the problem areas during the latest vtune run, we would likely adjust the Spark Temperature Correction if timing continues to be pulled in the problem areas. 

[7remmag]

Well I'm back from a rather eventful weekend in Topeka, KS.  Went to the NHRA Summer Nationals again and had a great time,  if you have never been to an NHRA event you need to go at least once.  Rode for about 100 miles in the rain on Friday, Saturday night we were in a hail storm and against everything I was taught growing up in Tornado ally I rode my bike out from under a tornado.  We were at a restaurant and just finished eating when the sirens went off, so I finished my beer went outside under a awning and watched these wicked funnels coming out of the clouds.  The hail stopped and I busted out of there and rode for clear sky's.  Now am ready to finish this tune.  The bike was of course running a little rich got around 35 to 36 mpg on every tank.  I'm not used to having stock exhaust so everything I hear seems loud to me, as far as engine noise.  Top end noise, air cleaner, everything seems noisier, but I have good oil pressure and it seems to run OK other than being to rich.  Runs cooler   So I guess I'm ready to make another data run.

[axtell]

"His theory is that the hotter plugs can tend to get really hot under load and 'trick' the ION sensing into thinking ping is about to happen.'
Truk : The hotter/stock plugs get real hot under load and cause cause detonation...no tricking...

[mayor]

7mm made another data run today with the latest ve adjusted calibration from his latest v-tune.  The results are more of the same:

anywhere there is a brown or green spike on the chart is where timing is being pulled. 

I'm still seeing the same trends where 1 to 2 frames from where the AFR switches from 14.6 to 14.4.  The part I don't understand is why it's switching from closed loop around 3k and 60 kPa:



question 1: does the desired afr go richer when the ecm senses a knock?  I know the afr will go richer when the timing is pulled, but I wouldn't think the desired afr would be switched richer.     Although, I can see this working as a safety feature. 

Here's an example of pulling timing as soon as leaving closed loop:




Recording 658 is still in closed loop, but 659 is now open.  The rpm's went up as did the throttle position, but the VE's went down.  This could be a lean trigger, but the barameter also dropped .4 kPa in between those two frames.   

speaking of barameter changing, here's another interesting thing I saw:




question 2: why did the barameter drop 1.5 kPa in slightly more than 2 minutes of operation (the equivelant of 500' increase in elevation).   

Here's another example of the timing being pulled right at the transition from closed to open loop:




again, the tps is slightly more but the ve's are going down.  I don't think the peak ve's happen at the left of 19%tps at 3k, although I guess it is possible.  The curious thing is this appears to be a steady state cruise area, but this switched from closed to open loop?  in reviewing the afr settings, this doesn't make sense.

another example of timing being pulled in the rear around the same area on the rear cylinder:




question 3: what is trumping the afr chart in this area? is it another table, or is it something else (refer to question #1)

another example, in the same area. This time it's the front getting into the action:




in this case, the throttle goes up as does the rpm's, but the ve decreases.  could be afr, especially since the timing was already lower than the rear which didn't pull.   

question 4: too lean of afr will cause a knock retard reflex, will too rich? and if so, how rich would it need to be?  In my mind, I think you could have the particular cell in a 30 increment or so range richer than 14.6 and still be in a safe richer operating range of the bike (~13:1 afr).  This would tell me to rich should trigger, since I doubt that those cells are set richer than 30 increments (15 ve's).    

here's the last example, in the same area yet again. This time both are getting into the action:








when both cylinders pull timing, I generally think to agressive of timing rates...but since this is also in an areas that just switched from closed to open..dunno.

question 5: where to go from here? at some point 7mm is going to start loosing confidence in my help. if he hasn't already  ..but I don't know what direction to go from here.  It looks to me like this is a fuel issue, so do we ignore the v-tuning and account for what the data is telling us?    or is the data telling us that the timing is to advanced, and that's why it's switching to a richer setting?  25 degrees of timing at 60 kpa doesn't seem like much at 3k.     my fear is trying to correct a fuel issue with timing, there by retarding the timing too much.

full data recording can be found here:
http://www.box.net/shared/7iyuejakk3

the calibration used for the above data run is attached.  I looked, but I didn't see anything overly out of line.   

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

7mm and I developed a new plan, try another cal.     He tried a v-tune run with Cal CAA176 today. Since he was having timing issues with the old cal, I copied those timing tables onto this cal to start.

So far the results are encouraging:

the rear ve's are reading much higher, hopefully this trend continues on the next v-tune run.  I'm hoping we can actually add some timing once the v-tuning is done.   

here was the EGR Effects chart:

the front doesn't look too bad, but the rear could use some work....we might play with that a little.   

[WVULTRA]

Mayor:

Just thinking out loud..............

Are the CLB tables affecting the AFR Desired in any way?

[mayor]

I don't think that an apple to apple comparsion can be made in ve's from one cal to another, but I'm pretty certain that it's not the clb tables making this much change:

I don't want to read too much into one v-tune run, but there's cells in there that's 1/2 point of afr richer in the problem area. 

[mayor]

7mm made 2 more vtunes runs with cal CAA176:

he maxed out a cell on the rear, so we increased the cubic inches 3% and decreased the VE's and warmup enrichment 3%. I'm not sure how the mentioned changes will effect the EGR tables, but we also made a few changes there based on the latest egr effects chart.    If the next run or two looks like the above, we may be trying timing again real soon. 

[wurk_truk]

Well, here's one thing to remember for everybody....   we broke in this bike and kept it out of most 'danger' zones while doing so, using v-tune right from the get go.

[mayor]

7mm has been pretty active the last couple of days working on his tune.  He ran two vtune runs after we increased the cubic inches (3%) on cal CAA176, and got the VE's mostly dialed in:

There's still a couple of areas that is on the upper side of the VE scale (rear @ 4,500 rpm at 25% and 30% tps), but we decided to start working on timing again to see if we could over come the issues that we had with the DPC176 cal.  After we get the timing dialed in more, 7mm will need to v-tune more to account for the increased timing (the engine will likely want more fuel). 

When we started with cal CAA176, we transferred the timing charts that we ended up with from the previous cal.  That timing was drastically reduced based on the data we saw from the data runs during our attempts using DPC176.

here's the timing changes on the vtune cal from the base line timing from cal CAA176:

Front:


Rear:

As indicated by the circled areas, the timing was substantially retarded from the base map.   We wanted to add timing back into this area, but we also wanted to make sure the engine would take increased timing there.  To speed up the process, we developed two regular use cals for 7mm to run data runs with (all tables set back to regular use, except the PE Mode).  One cal with the the timing that was used for vtuning, and the other with timing tweaks that was SWAG developed. 

Since we were adding timing to the 50 kPa ranges, we set the adaptive knock retard to monitor those ranges:


The cal with the timing "as vtuned" had some timing being pulled:

The pulled timing areas are circled at the bottom of the graph.  The desired afr stayed in closed loop in the areas that we were having problems with the previous cal, so we can take the information of the timing being pulled as mostly timing related.  Overall, there was much less timing being pulled than what we saw from the previous cal. 

The second cal that 7mm performed a data run with had the timing increased on both cylinders the following amounts:

As indicated above, we added timing back into the problem areas and we did this based on the information that we were seeing from the vtune data that our problem areas was indeed desiring more fuel than the previous cal's vtuning was allowing. 

Here's the interesting thing, the pulled timing was actually less than the retarded timing:
 
This was very encouraging, and as reported by our in the field intelligence officer (7mm)- the bike felt much better with the timing added back in.  He tried the timing added cal first, and he said that there was a noticeable difference when he went back to the retarded timing cal.  here's his exact quote: "I loaded the map without timing.  IT SUCKED. Never seemed to idle as well, not near as responsive in the throttle and it seemed to run rough.Couldn't wait to get home, it just seemed like I wasn't going to get there."   The good news is we shouldn't have to go back to those timing levels based on what we saw on the latest data recordings. 

here's the data recording from the timing adjusted cal:
http://www.box.net/shared/m7skm874s6

We took the data that we saw from the above data runs and adjusted several areas on the timing adjusted cal.  We increased the ve's in a couple areas that we saw open loop timing being pulled, we retarded the timing 1-2 degrees in a few areas, and we added an additional 1 degree of timing retard in strategic areas of the Spark Temperature Correction tables.  7mm is going to run that cal, and if we see little to no timing being pulled we are going back to vtuning to get the new fuel requirements dialed in (because of the advanced timing).   

[mayor]

7mm made another data recording today with the calibration that we developed using the previous two data recordings, and there was no timing being pulled!    the adjustments we made based on the previous two data recordings worked.     It looks like the previous calibration might have been the issue. 

data recording run 3 can be found here:
http://www.box.net/shared/japgnhpklt


from where we were with timing from the last timing tables from previous calibration (DPC176), so far we were able to increase the timing the following amount in each cylinder:



Here's where the current cal (-003) ranks as far as differences in timing from the timing tables on the base calibration:
Front:

Rear:


we are still lower in some cells than the base cal timing, but since we've made a considerable amount of change to the timing tables we're going to vtune again to make sure any changes in VE's are account for with the new timing.      We are also going to bump up the cubic inches another 3% (and lower the VE's 3%) during the next set of Vtune runs, since we had a couple areas that were already close to being maxed out in ve's and we increased the timing in those areas.   

once we get the VE's dialed in again, we'll try to add some more timing back in and see if the engine responds well to the changes. 

[7remmag]

Hey Mayor you got mail

[mayor]

I think we're getting there.  Here's the VE tables from today with the EGR Effect line:

I made some more minor tweeks to the rear EGR table on the cal I sent, but overall I think it's looking pretty good.  I think a couple of back to back runs should hopefully wrap the vtuning up.  Then we'll try data recordings again to see if your build will take any of the timing back that we had to give up from the base cal timing charts.

The CAA176 cal won't read closed loop the whole way to 6k, so that's why you haven't been able to get those ranges:


O'well, 6k kind of out of the normal range for most folks anyway.   

[7remmag]

  I'll try and get those tomorrow after work.  The other half is wanting to do something, so who knows when for sure.  Gotta keep her happy and she's pretty good about putting up with my travels when I go.  I have Thursday off so I know I can get in some full runs then.
Thanks
7

[mayor]

no worries 7mm.    Keep in mind, if you want to slow up the tuning pace (meaning skip some days, and just enjoy the ride)...you can always flash your last datarecording tested cal CAA176-03-A0-newcal-SWAG-003, which is set for everday riding. 

[7remmag]

It sounds and looks like it's almost there so I'll stick with it for now. Tonight I'll probably stick around here and do a little maintenance and cleaning on the bike if I can get away with it.  Sounds like I'm grillin and chillin with the little lady, but am sure I can grab a brewski and get a little clean up time in between flippin the tasties .  Then tomorrow    Getting ready to go to the Doc so hopefully everything is all clear there. Tomorrow is high of 93 and windy so will get up early and get everything done before it gets to hot.
Later
7

[7remmag]

Hey mayor I read that thread that you posted on timing.  Very interesting although it's still confusing to me were and how to look for it at times,  but you said that timing was a dark world of it's own. (Maybe not those exact words).  I do remember a couple times I couldn't wait to get home or didn't know if I was going to get home, because of vibration in certain areas.  I wondered how all that was gone the next time  .  Looking over some of the previous post on my tune again I am starting to understand a bit more.   I'll get that run done tonight,  the little lady is going to a relay for life thing so I'll get plenty of quality riding time.
Thanks 7

[mayor]

I think your VE's are dialed in pretty good now:
   

I sent you 1 cal last night, and two this morning to try data recordings on. I removed some timing where you where having the timing pulled on the last data recording, and added some timing in areas that we were trending low from the base cal (when compared to original, keep in mind we started this particular cal with timing derived from the last cal we tried from DPC), and I also took some upper rpm areas out of closed loop (higher map at 4k, and all of 4.5k rows) on the cal-004. 

[7remmag]

I'll probably get started around noon,  I'm on call till then
Thanks

[mayor]

no worries, I won't be able to look at data recordings until later tonight anyway.   The wife and I are about ready to head south on a ride for lunch.   

[mayor]

it's been a couple of days since I've updated this thread.  Since my last posting, 7mm has run 6 more calibrations. Most of these cals were baby steps testing various areas of concern.  We've been continuing the plan to get the timing back to the base cal levels, and see if the engine would take more timing. 

just to catch up the folks just joining, or those that haven't read the whole way through the thread.  We started this cal based on the timing that we were running from another cal.  That other cal was pulling timing like crazy right in the sweet spot (2-3k rpm 50-70 kPa ranges), to the point that we gave up on trying to make that cal work. One the latest data recording, 7mm had no timing being pulled so we will continue our efforts to make the bike as happy as possible.   

here's the data recording:
http://www.box.net/shared/u9glirxqnu

here's how much the timing has changed since the first vtune run 7mm made on this cal:
front:


rear:


We have been able to add a substanial amount of the timing we were pulling from the previous cal back in.  Luckily we caught the open loop (lean) trend on the previous cal, or 7mm's bike may have been very unhappy with the timing.   


and here is how we compare to the base original calibration timing tables:

front:

rear:


We still have some areas that are trending lower than the base cal timing map, but 7mm will be doing another data recording soon to see if the engine responds well to the timing changes in those locations.  We have more work to do, but we are getting there. 

data recording -010 should be attached.   

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[7remmag]

Hey Mayor
I ran 11 and 12 and sent them to ya.  I think I got some pretty decent runs,  11 was a little weaker in the lower RPMS 1800 to 2800.  Both seemed strong above 3400.  12 had a little ping around 2600-2800 when opening the throttle, but not much and not everytime.  I need to be a little careful now since my closed course is getting crowded.   
Later
7

[mayor]

I think I got some pretty decent runs

you did real good.  I had made a good bit of timing adjustments on cal 12, and it looks like you did a good job of testing them. 

There was some timing being pulled on cal 12 where you heard the ping, I'm still thinking it is a ve issue since the surrounding cells trend higher.  I'll make some corrections and send you another cal to try. You're in luck, only one cal tomorrow.    

[mayor]

there was no timing being pulled on cal -010 (although, keep in mind that doesn't mean every cell was checked at every load), so we decided to double down and start seeing how much we can push the timing.  Both -011 and -012 cals are versions of cal 10.  Cal -011 has some slight ve changes in open loop and some minor timing adjustments.  Cal -012 has more aggressive adjustments.  We kept the changed to cal -011 milder since no timing being pulled in cal -010 means we are getting close to a nice base line of a safe tune.  What we're trying to get now is a better tune. 

here's the changes to cal -011 from -010:

data run -011 Front VE adjustments from cal 10:


data run -011 Rear VE adjustments from cal 10:

We added VE's to some areas that we had concern with low trending VE's. The areas that we reduced the VE's above is areas that we thought might be high, but admitidly we are using SWAG to to us what to do since this is open loop tuning areas.  We're not to concerned though  , since all we're trying to do is get those areas in the suitable wide open throttle window (12.8~13.8 ). 

data run -011 Front Timing adjustments from cal 10:


data run -011 Rear Timing adjustments from cal 10:


if you look at the above, you'll notice the changes from cal -010 to cal -011 was minimal.  This was more of a test to see if we can get back to back cals that didn't pull timing, and correct a few areas that we didn't have trending well.  Unfortunately, the data recording did show one area that we had timing being pulled. 

Here's what the data recording showed on cal -011:






If you look at the above data, you will see that the timing is being pulled after a quick twist of the throttle and a subsequent switch to open loop.  The other thing to note is the VE's changed very little during that process.  Add the the fact the the rear didn't object to similar timing, and we're leaning towards a lean condition causing the trigger. 

data recording for cal -011:
http://www.box.net/shared/m8zadn7mfu4pjm8jikpn


Our field operations manager (7mm) has been commenting that the mid rpm areas have not felt as strong as he would like, so we're trying to see if we can improve those areas. The VE's look like the are trending low in the area that he said is weak, so we decided to push the VE's up on this cal and push the timing.
Here's what we did with cal -012 compared to cal -010:

data run -012 Front VE adjustments from cal 10:

We added to the Ve's in the areas that were extended VE vtune values, and we just tried to pretty up the 3D VE chart. We also used simple logic to tell us that a cam that has a peak tq around 4k should have a reasonably strong ve pattern at 3-3.5k.  My guess is these are rich values in the 80-100% columns, but shouldn't be pig rich.  Once we get the open loop tendancy to totally go away, we can work on lower the 80%-100% ve table values.

After the adjustments, the front VE table looked like this:

compare the red circled area to the blue.....and this is after we raised the ve's some in that area.  I don't find it coincidental that there timing being pulled in that area. 

data run -012 Front Timing adjustments from cal 10:


data run -012 Rear Timing adjustments from cal 10:


We used the "looks like we can add some timing here method" and also used the base line timing to make see if we could add back into areas that were previously pulling.  Our goal was to try to improve the weak feeling of the mid rpm ranges, so that's where we targeted the timing.

The data recording was encouraging, but we did end up with some pulled timing in the VE dip area of the front cylinder.  The good news was we didn't have any pulled on the rear despite the increases we made in timing.  Here's what we saw:







The case above looks like we had a low VE amount which was masked by closed loop running, but as soon as we went into open loop there was a trigger.  It could also be caused by a higher starting timing level which could have triggered an advanced timing trigger. 







The case above looks like we had a timing trigger.  It could have also been a VE trigger, but this looks like timing.  I think we might have gotten a little over zealous in the 70 kPa column.   

data recording for cal -012:
http://www.box.net/shared/mgd300dehzctpu05adq6

we used the data that we gathered from the above cals to create cal -013.  More on that one tomorrow. 

Cal -012 should be attached to this post. 

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

We were still pulling a little timing on the front cylinder in cals -011 and -012, but there wasn't any pulled on the rear.  We wanted to see if we could improve the performance in the mid rpm areas, since our field operations manager feels this area is weak.  We were guessing that area was still lean, so by adding fuel (increasing VE's) we were hoping that we would be limiting the timing being pulled and should improve the power in that area. 

here's the only change to cal -013 from -012 (front ve table):

We decided to see if raising the VE's in the problem area would limit the timing being pulled.  We also decided to trim back the VE's in the heavier throttle areas in the mid-RPM's, and add just a touch to the upper rpm's. 

Here's what the front VE table for -013 looks like after the change:

as you can see, we are not adding peaks.  We are just filling in dips in areas that we would expect the VE's to be at least similar to surrounding areas. We are also using SWAG to adjust the VE's in a general arching shape at WOT that might represent what the tq curve would look like.  This is really just a guess, the only way to know for sure that we are on the right track is an external measurement.  We're not skeered though, that AFR window for power potential is pretty broad at wide open throttle (12.8~13.8 ). 

Here's what the above looks like in 3D:

I circled the area that we still have some concerns with.  This area was populated with vtune data, and the vtune process showed that this was less than 2% off.  At this point, we're not sure we agree with that.   








From the above it appears that 7mm twisted the throttle in the area that we still have concerns with, and timing was eventually pulled.  This could really be either timing or AFR issues, since the VE's trended low on the front before the trigger and the timing was also more advanced on the front at the time as well.  We're going to assume a little of both when we adjust cal -014. 







We think the above is more than likely a over advance issue. 


For the first time in several runs, we had timing being pulled on the rear cylinder.  We did not make any changes in this area on the last cal, so this was probably an area that was missed over the last data recording (this is why multiple data runs on your finished cal is important).  Here's what we saw happening on the rear cylinder:






The above appears to be timing too far advanced.  It looks like we might have been a little over zealous in that area.   

data recording for cal -013:
http://www.box.net/shared/jlz2rzm93xc14m5v36u5

cal -013 should be attached below.  We used the above information two develop cals -014 and -015.  On those cals we made added another change...but we'll keep you in suspense until 7mm gets some data runs done on those cals.   

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[axtell]

very well done!!!!!!!!!!

[mayor]

Thanks Ron.      I'm curious to see what our next round of changes produces as far as pulled timing.  We made a good bit of changes (mostly associated with timing), and the only change we made to the front VE chart was filling in the dip that shows up in the cal -013 3D VE chart (the circled area).  It will be interesting to see if this helps the pulled timing area.  Here's what the 3D chart for the up coming cal-014 looks like (this cal has not been tested yet):

The VE flow is much smoother in the problem area (red circle).  I circled the area that had VE's added in purple, which shows that we are not creating peaks but rather smoothing out the flow of VE's. 

[mayor]

We produced two new cals for 7mm to try based on the data we learned from cal -013.  We introduced a new change on these cals though, or more like a change back to original.  Early on when we were having problems with the timing being pulled, we decided to add an addition degree of retard to the temp correction table.  We figured it was best to go back to the base cal settings in this chart, so we ended up with this change on cal -014 when compared to -013:

We could have probably left it like it was, but we decided to use the individual areas to adjust timing since that table makes a more general decrease.  I think adjusted that table is better when you adjust the timing under cool conditions, and can know for sure that hotter conditions is causing timing to be pulled.  In this case, we missed the cooler whether by a couple of months.   

Here is the only front VE table changes we made on this cal:

We did that just to fill in the dip that we were seeing on the 3D ve chart, which just happened to coincide with an area we were getting pulled timing on earlier cals. 

Here's the changes we made to the timing charts:

Front:

The 60-70 kPa column reductions is almost covered by the 1 degree less retard we now have at temp. 

Rear:


We made some pretty good reductions, but keep in mind that we will be running one degree less offset due to the temp correction chart modifications in many of those areas too. Furthermore, many of the really big change areas is already well above base line cal timing for those cells.  Our goal in this case was to find a happy place where timing and afr's could live together in harmony, or in layman's terms...make a cal that didn't pull timing. 

Here's what the current front timing looks like compared to the original calibration:


Here's what the current rear timing looks like compared to the original calibration:


The good news was there was no timing pulled with this cal.   

the data recording for cal -014 can be found here:
http://www.box.net/shared/yc5r4fglhjvgkbex5tyh


On cal -015 we decided to see if we could invite more wide open throttle timing to the party.  We didn't make big jumps, but we made plenty of changes. 

Here's what we did to the front timing of -015 compared to cal -014:


Here's what we did to the rear timing of -015 compared to cal -014:


Here's how the timing charts from cal -015 now compare to the base calibration charts:

Front:


Rear:


This calibration did not pull any timing either.     That means we had two back to back cals where no timing is being pulled. 

the data recording for cal -015 can be found here:
http://www.box.net/shared/9ag1rkgmbry8cq4jtry5

Now that we appeared to have corrected the timing being pulled, we are going to see if we can push the timing a little in the 50-70 kPa columns on cal -016. 

[mayor]

since our last update, 7mm has been busy testing cals that we have been tweaking based on what we were seeing on data recordings.  We were making some good progress on the knock retard, but we ended up introducing another problem- vibration.  The bike wasn't pulling timing in the problem areas anymore, but it wasn't running smooth there either.  We think that it was due to raising the VE's in those areas, to a point where the o2 readings were not lining up with what was written on the VE tables close enough.  We decided to try vtuning again, and this time see if adjusting the EGR tables would elevate the VE's in the problem areas.  The problem with this train of thought is the EGR tables mostly affect the sub 60 kPa areas, but we had to test to see if this would work since we are still not where we want to be as far as the tune goes.  In looking at the 3D VE charts from the last vtune recording (vtune rd 3 run 5), you can clearly see that there is a trough in the VE's around the problem area:

Front (VTrd3rn5):


Rear (VTrd3rn5):


During the last set of data recordings, we have been slowly filling in that trough in the VE's and it has been working to improve the knock retard but it also started causing some engine non-smooth issues. We decided to see if we could adjust the EGR tables during another set of vtuning to raise the VE's up in the problem areas to flow better the surrounding rows.

here's what we've seen so far after 2 vtune runs:

Front:

The EGR table in the picture is the amount of change from the left chart to the right chart.

We used one of our data recording cals that had the VE's adjusted as our base for the vtune run, since our goal was to raise the VE's during the Vtune to where we thought the ve's should be based on surrounding trends.  Even after raising the EGR in the problem area, we didn't see much movement in the VE's there.  This confused us on whether we should raise or lower the EGR settings, then we looked at this (EGR Effect Chart vt4 run 1:

Based on this chart, we didn't have good 60 kPa data around the problem area.  We figured this is probably skewing what we were seeing.  We decided to use what we were seeing on the left side of the EGR affect line, and based on that it appeared we needed to raise the values there.   Here's what we saw after the next change:

It appears our hunch was right, the Ve's are raising throughout the length of the row.  We're guessing this means we are on the right track.  Here's what the 3D VE chart looks like after two Vtune runs:

The Red circled area has less of a trough, although a trough is still present.  The black circled area was where we raised the open loop ve's previously.  We decided not to auto-extend, since we were trying to match these two areas up. 

Rear:

The EGR table in the picture is the amount of change from the left chart to the right chart.

Not surprising, we saw more positive movement on the rear than we did the front.  I say not surprising, since the bulk of our issues was on thr front cylinder, not the rear.   


The results on this cylinder was very encouraging.

The 3D chart on the rear after two vtune runs looks much better too:

The interesting thing to note on the 3D chart on the rear is there is a much less noticable transition from the problem area to where we added.  We think this means we are close with our EGR settings on the rear cylinder. 

Based on what we were seeing outlined above, it appears that the EGR tables can help raise the entire rpm row but it may be dependant on at what MAP range the data was collected.  Or it least that's what it appears.