TTS Tuning Member 7Remmag's Bike

[wurk_truk]

Member 7Remmag is having a bit of trouble getting the hang of how to v-tune.  I want him to use this thread so that the Members here on HTT can help him develop a good and decent tune.

Have at it fellas

[7remmag]

OK ! I gotta give a big thumbs up to Wurk T. for putting up with my stupid a$$ questions and then generously giving more time than I probably deserve.  He might regret this, but I'm going to take advantage of his and all of your expertise with TTS.  I know that I 'm not the only one here that needs help with this and I hope they learn from anything I might be asking.  Or at least you'll have a little humor in your day.

I've already had a lot of help from others here (thanks Mayor) and to the many others I really do appreciate your help.

Right now I'm trying to move my VE tables from MT7 to MT8 and I'm not having much luck.  Thinking maybe I should just start over again from scratch.  I've got 9 Vtunes in on the base calibration and I'll try to copy and paste some of that here so if your interested you know where I stand.

[mayor]

Right now I'm trying to move my VE tables from MT7 to MT8 and I'm not having much luck. 

you can do this one of two ways, you can copy the table using the copy and paste multiple table function (outlined on page 46 of Mastertune's printed help manual), or you can click on your mt7 ve table, hit the rpm square at the top left side to hi-light all the squares, hit the edit copy button, then open another Mastertune program, pick the mt8 that you want to past the file in, then hot edit paste in the appropriate ve table.   

[7remmag]

well I set up and ran another file and thought maybe I would try a different one in the morning.  I started with CPZ176-03 and did all the settings like the V-Tune Procedure manual said AFR to 14.6, Accel enrichment to 0, Decel Enleanment to 0, closed loop bias to 720 in front and rear, and adapt knock to 0.  Started it up but it started at what seemed to be a slow idle which didn't change at all.  Little lope and a little rich, but I didn't make any changes.  Took it for about a 20 minute ride out on a four lane that has a few hills and back.  I hit and got green in a good number of cells up to 60% throttle and around 5500 rpm.   Brought it home and generated a tune, but haven't loaded anything into the ECM.  The table that was generated (below) seemed to have a lot more red than I thought it would.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

yep, that's a lot of red.      open up your Datamaster program, open that last v-tune up, and run the EGR Effect to see if reversion is messing with the lighter throttle.  I suspect that it is.  The EGR Effect is under the view tab.   ais this an mt7 or mt8 file?

[lonewolf]

What exhaust? What parts?

[7remmag]

It's an mt8 file.  So I found the EGR effect TPS analyzer and  it says analysis OK, 47 hits.  Is there some some table I forgot to set.

[7remmag]

Exhaust is stock 2-1-2 from an 09, woods tw6-6 cams with +4 gear, High ratio rockers, kn filter with backing plate.

[mayor]

Is there some some table I forgot to set.

no, the EGR settings affect the ve's to the left of the EGR Effect line.  The base map settings just might not be right for your build.

did you run the cam intake open analyzer? 

there's info on both of these on this thread: http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,35308.150.html

cam intake analyzer is covered on post #157-#160

EGR adjustment is covered from #170 and down 

[lonewolf]

Curiuos why you didn't try DPC176? The ve tables in that map look close to your vtune results. The 258 specs while not a perfect match look better than stock cams.

[mayor]

not seeing your EGR Effects chart, I would still guess it lines up to these lines:

see how the trends are lower on the left side of the line? 

[7remmag]

I guess I didn't know I could, I thought that I was to pick the cal closest to what I have and since DPC 176-03 is more CI with heads, pistons, and the cam I guess it wouldn't look like a good fit to me, but you guys on here can do way more than I can imagine.

[7remmag]

So mayor is that a lack of decel or the fact that I didn't do the camtool

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[7remmag]

So what if I were to do another base map run the same way I did this one with CQD176-03.  I picked three cals to see which one ran better right from the start, thinking that would be easier to tune.  Is that a step in the right direction or a waste of time.  Do all 96" bikes 07 and newer have 25 degree injecters? 

[7remmag]

[quote
Exhaust is stock 2-1-2 from an 09, woods tw6-6 cams with +4 gear, High ratio rockers, kn filter with backing plate.
][/quote]  I always forget to mention High ratio rockers.

[mayor]

I am not a pro-tuner, so take this how ever you like.  I think with the new tools (cam selector and EGR settings) in the .mt8 version of TTS, being close with the starting cal is all that is needed as long as you are willing to put forth the effort.  You have the ability to change just about everything to custom tailor your tune to your bike.  Lonewolf is a pro-tuner, so honestly his opinion carries more weight than mine. Besides, my experience in TTS is still being measured in single digit months.    

So mayor is that a lack of decel or the fact that I didn't do the camtool

likely neither, but possibly the cam intake valve settings.  If the cam settings are correct, then what is being shown there is the effects of the EGR settings.  The EGR setting basically applies offsets to the o2 data that is collected by the ecm in closed loop to account for exhaust gas recirculation.  This is not a new table (it was hidden before), but ability for the end user to change this is a new feature of the mt8 version of TTS.  To learn a little more about EGR, read reply #7 down on this thread: http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,38060.0.html


first, before you go further use the Datamaster camshaft analyzer to determine where you should be set at the cam intake valve setting in the ECM tuning constraints section of Mastertune.  Use the published cam intake close particulars to set the intake valve close setting, just remember to factor in your +4 gear and also that you want the setting to be just after valve close (1~2 degree's or so). 

second, do one more run (after changing or verifying the cam intake close) to try to get more data. You are lacking a lot of good data points to the right side of your EGR Effects analyzer line in the early rpm's, which means that you have nothing to base change decisions off of.   To understand how to collect more data, read reply #5 and reply #12 of this thread (this is a lambda based thread, but the principals is the same): http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,38115.0.html

third, run the EGR Effects Analyzer on your next run.  Take that data and find the VE cells just to the left of that line.  If there are drastic changes between the cell just to the right, then you should think about adjusting your EGR settings.  Here's where things get tricky, since there's no fixed number approach to adjustments.  You just have to adjust, test (v-tune), evaluate (view VE's), and then repeat until you are happy.  To learn more about how this works read reply #19 down on this thread: http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,37810.0.html

[7remmag]

Thanks mayor.  So lonewolf where do you live and how much do you charge to tune. Just kidding I know your not close enough.

[7remmag]

with all this messing around that I'm doing am I doing more damage than good ? I tried doing a camshaft closing analyzer went to intake valve closing and did analyze and got "The CAM analyzer requires data recorded using mt8 tts calbration and the cam tune data selection". 

[rbabos]

well I set up and ran another file and thought maybe I would try a different one in the morning.  I started with CPZ176-03 and did all the settings like the V-Tune Procedure manual said AFR to 14.6, Accel enrichment to 0, Decel Enleanment to 0, closed loop bias to 720 in front and rear, and adapt knock to 0.  Started it up but it started at what seemed to be a slow idle which didn't change at all.  Little lope and a little rich, but I didn't make any changes.  Took it for about a 20 minute ride out on a four lane that has a few hills and back.  I hit and got green in a good number of cells up to 60% throttle and around 5500 rpm.   Brought it home and generated a tune, but haven't loaded anything into the ECM.  The table that was generated (below) seemed to have a lot more red than I thought it would.

I've run into this idle and rich trait when testing different cals for my bike. Basically it's the wrong cal. If the wrong (too high ci constants) area put in or the cam is way off to the cal it will run like this as well. Think about this. You already have the warmup enrichment 0'd out and it's still too rich. That's an indicator something is wrong .
Just loaded an MT8 cal last week and set the constants to the same 130 as it's MT7 equivilent. Ran exactly as you described and O2 log were showing at best in the 2000 range and not switching. Dropped the ci to the actual 113 engine size and it all came together.
You need to try a completely different cal, since this one will go nowhere in the tuning process. Consider not using the 2-1 maps as well. Even though I run a Supertrap the engine runs better with a non 2-1 cal. I don't know why this is but it's how my build behaves.
Ron

[Jeffd]

curious where you have your O2 sensors mounted in the 09 header?  If you 2010-11 sensors mounted in the stock 09 location that could be a problem and if you put them down where stock 10-11 sensors go that could be a problem without the cat to prevent cross talk.  I could be full of it too lol.

[7remmag]

the exhaust is from an 09 touring which is a 2-1-2 system on an 07.  No cats on them, basically got rid of the fake crossover.  Sensors should be fine, just not finding a good base to start from.  I don't think the last one was a good base for me, would like to start with the closest I can get so I don't need to make a lot of adjustments.  I have a tendency to get lost in all the computer stuff,  I guess I thought that the MT8 programs new data would be more like just listing a certain cam like "WOODS TW6 CAMS" instead of trying to determine what cam is closest to handfull of listed.  I would like to find a set up like mine and work from there.  Little things that i ask never seem to get answered for me and sometimes are confusing.

[lonewolf]

I tried doing a camshaft closing analyzer went to intake valve closing and did analyze and got "The CAM analyzer requires data recorded using mt8 tts calbration and the cam tune data selection". 

This part has to be done on the dyno. Set it on 3 and go. On your pic of with all of the red cells the red indicates % of change. I think the cells on the left have gone down and the ones to the right have gone up,just the way the cam works. You can copy the ve tables from the "new" map, paste them into the map you used to make it and then use the "compare to baseline" button to see the direction of change. Like Ron says I have also found the cu in's can be set very close to actual. I agree with Mayor that with the cam tools maybe now the map will come around. I still have the old habit of picking my base map based on the cam as I can copy and paste things like timing tables. I have only done 3 bikes with the MT8's, the last one being mine. Working the egr tables does add to the time, but they do run smoother. I like the new MT8's

[hrdtail78]

"You can copy the ve tables from the "new" map, paste them into the map you used to make it and then use the "compare to baseline" button to see the direction of change."

If you see a trend as it adding across the board to these VE's,  You can always add more manually to the VE table before the next vtune.  Generated tunes will only add or subtract so much.

[7remmag]

does the PE Enable mode need to be set differently than the base when vtuning

[7remmag]

couple of questions
1.  do you need to remove old base map from the ecm when changing to a different one.

2. when adding a +4 gear in your camshaft estimator you add it where.

I'm going to try the DPC176-03 as lonewolf questioned,  as it might be easier for me to start from scratch again verses cutting and pasting.  I can do more of that stuff on my desktop, but this netbook is harder for me to get around in