TTS Tuning Member 7Remmag's Bike

[7remmag]

Thanks Mayor I'm gonna see if I can start on it today.  It looks complicated at first, but I'm sure I'll understand it more as I go.
Need to get it done as I am riding to the Summer nationals with some friends on the 19th- 21st of May.

[7remmag]

Does the EGR get closer each time you VTune ?   Therefore by adjusting the problem values as you go you're getting to a corrected value throughout the table sooner.   I guess what I'm asking is whether or not you still eventually get the same end result by just vtuning verses making adjustments.

[rbabos]

Does the EGR get closer each time you VTune ?   Therefore by adjusting the problem values as you go you're getting to a corrected value throughout the table sooner.   I guess what I'm asking is whether or not you still eventually get the same end result by just vtuning verses making adjustments.

Having done it both ways with the mt7 and now the mt8 I can tell you without using the egr tables the vtune will not correctly set the ve's in some engines no matter how many runs you make. It will remain wrong in some areas forever.
I ran the egr on each of the ten runs I did and adjusted on each one. Probably around 8 runs it started to get stable in the low end. Never did happen with the mt7 without egr. When I set it back to original I could not believe how well it ran.
Two things I learned from my recent tune is, some builds need a lot of v runs to dial in and the egr really works. Still was near impossible to get the 60kpa analyzer filled even with tall gear starts and every other gear shifting but got enough info to make an educated guess while viewing the numbers in the ve tables as reference.
Ron

[7remmag]

OK! so I'm a little slow at this, but I guess I just want to get it right.  The 60 kPa is based on the line from the EGR effect TPS analyzer then transfered to the front and rear VE charts .  Correct ?  Then you want a smooth transition from cells on the RIGHT of that said line to the cells on the LEFT also up and down.  Changes can only be made by changing the numbers left of the line, correct ?  When making the changes you change numbers in the EGR-F and EGR-R tables based on what RPM is close to that of problem cells on the VE charts.  With that being said is there any type of matching front and rear ve cells that needs to be done ?
Do I have this right so far ?

[rbabos]

OK! so I'm a little slow at this, but I guess I just want to get it right.  The 60 kPa is based on the line from the EGR effect TPS analyzer then transfered to the front and rear VE charts .  Correct ?  Then you want a smooth transition from cells on the RIGHT of that said line to the cells on the LEFT also up and down.  Changes can only be made by changing the numbers left of the line, correct ?  When making the changes you change numbers in the EGR-F and EGR-R tables based on what RPM is close to that of problem cells on the VE charts.  With that being said is there any type of matching front and rear ve cells that needs to be done ?
Do I have this right so far ?

The way I look at the 60 kpa line, recycle is less or practically non existant at 60 kpa. This would mean the ve's on the right side of the line should be reasonably accurate. Then you want to get the oddball ve's that are to the left of the line closer to a nice stead increase to blend into the ones on the right of the line.
Front and rear ve's will have their own numbers with either one higher than the other. This is normal, so only egr effect each cyls ve's and live with the natural differences between the two.
My rear required next to no adjustment, but the front needed quite a bit from idle to 3k with the most from idle to 2k. All needed an increase in the effect tables. Likely the only time you need to go down is if you went too far up with the adjustment.
It's a long slow abusive process, but seems to cure the problems I had. I still see areas where I could tweek it a bit more but there comes a time where enough is enough as long as it runs good.
Ron

[7remmag]

So based on the line from the relationship of the EGR effects chart and the VE table, I make my changes on the throttle postion table per cell.  Then the cells on the left will match those on the right or will be a smooth transition, meaning close.  Correct ?  So to do this I make my adjustments per cell by highlighting that perticular cell and using the increasement or decreasement buttons to make the changes in order to match cells left of line to those on the right.  Then I can just load this into the ECM or are there changes I make to the RPM EGR effect tables also.

[mayor]

Does the EGR get closer each time you VTune ?   Therefore by adjusting the problem values as you go you're getting to a corrected value throughout the table sooner.   I guess what I'm asking is whether or not you still eventually get the same end result by just vtuning verses making adjustments.

NO, you will not get the same results by just v-tuning.  You can get a more than suitable tune with out adjusting the EGR tables by just v-tuning, but EGR table adjustments and subsequent v-tunes allow for less drastic changes in the VE tables which should mean a smoother running motorcycle.  The EGR table affects how the ECM interprets the values supplied by the o2 sensors in relation to the posted values on the VE tables. 

In respect to making EGR adjustments, you can quit at anytime and have a decent tune as long as your v-tune VE charts have mostly white and light pink cells. 

1. The 60 kPa is based on the line from the EGR effect TPS analyzer then transfered to the front and rear VE charts .  Correct ? 

2. Then you want a smooth transition from cells on the RIGHT of that said line to the cells on the LEFT also up and down. 

3. Changes can only be made by changing the numbers left of the line, correct ? 

4. When making the changes you change numbers in the EGR-F and EGR-R tables based on what RPM is close to that of problem cells on the VE charts.  With that being said is there any type of matching front and rear ve cells that needs to be done ?

1. yes, but keep in mind the 60 kPa line is just a reference to allow you to see where the potential corrections would be seen.

2. yes, you want smooth transitions left to right and lower to higher rpm's.

3. In reading what you posted, I'm not sure if your talking about making changes to the VE tables or EGR tables.  All EGR correction adjustments are done in the EGR tables, the VE table adjustments are jut to give you reference points. When you adjust the EGR tables and then v-tune to get new values, the majority of the changes will occur to the left of the line.  You may see some chnages to the right side, but they will be on a much smaller scale. 

4. the front and rear should be looked at indepenantly. Keep in mind that the relationship to the intake and the exhaust is different, so the VE's will likely be different. 

[streeter1]

So based on the line from the relationship of the EGR effects chart and the VE table, I make my changes on the throttle postion table per cell.  Then the cells on the left will match those on the right or will be a smooth transition, meaning close.  Correct ?  So to do this I make my adjustments per cell by highlighting that perticular cell and using the increasement or decreasement buttons to make the changes in order to match cells left of line to those on the right.  Then I can just load this into the ECM or are there changes I make to the RPM EGR effect tables also.

All your your adjustments to smooth VE table are done with EGR table only. Adjust the EGR table in the areas that correspond to the left of your 60kpa line, load the new cal. run Vtune to veiw the results and go from there. 

[7remmag]

So the tables that I'm referring to are... If I go to mastertune and load the last generated file that I am about ready to load into the bike.  Go to table selection and select VE front or rear cyl., do I make changes there or go to EGR Effect Front or rear cylinders further down on the drop list? 

I noticed that I can make changes to the cells in the VE tables if I highlight them, is there a reason or purpose for being able to change them there.

[mayor]

1. So the tables that I'm referring to are... If I go to mastertune and load the last generated file that I am about ready to load into the bike.  Go to table selection and select VE front or rear cyl., do I make changes there or go to EGR Effect Front or rear cylinders further down on the drop list? 

2. I noticed that I can make changes to the cells in the VE tables if I highlight them, is there a reason or purpose for being able to change them there.

1. you are making changes to the EGR tables, and those changes affect how the v-tune data recording interprets the values to populate the VE tables.

2. Yes, changes can be made to the VE tables, but this is not how you adjust for EGR.  Adjusting these VE values is for if you tune in open loop using an external AFR measuring device or from blending outside edges of cells not hit during the v-tuning process.  The EGR table values work in conjunction with the data collected by the o2 sensors during the v-tune process to populate the VE cells.  You can not skip any steps. 

Step 1. analyse a previous data collection recording (datamaster v-tune run) to determine where the EGR Effect line is.

Step 2. evaluate a previous v-tune ve chart to determine where the EGR line is affecting the VE's.

Step 3. Determine what changes to the EGR tables need done based the EGR Effects line considering that you want to adjust the VE relationship between right to left and lower to higher rpm ranges.

Step 4. adjust the EGR Tables, record changes (v-tune), evaluate, repeat as needed. 

[N-gin]

Lots of usful info here.
I have questions.
After you v-tune, do you do the EGR first or the timing tables?
Also if you do the timing tables last, you have to do another v-tune for the new timing tables?

SO in other words V-tune, EGR, Timing, V-tune, EGR, timing, and so on till it is darn near perfect?
Or V-tune, Timing tables, V-tune, EGR, Timing tables.

[mayor]

I have questions.
1. After you v-tune, do you do the EGR first

2. or the timing tables?

3. Also if you do the timing tables last, you have to do another v-tune for the new timing tables?

1. you do EGR while you are v-tuning.  The EGR tables affect how the ECM is interpretting data, so you do one v-tune to check the EGR Effects line...then adjust the EGR tables, v-tune, evaluate, make changes to the EGR tables, v-tune, and repeat until satisfied with results.

2. unless you have a pretty good idea of what you are doing, advancing timing should only be done after you are finished v-tuning.  Retarding timing can be done during the v-tune process if you hear audible ping, and know where it was coming from on the timing tables.

3. if you change the timing tables, you should run at least one more v-tune to verify that your timing didn't change the ve's radically.  As a rule of thumb- advancing will lean out an area, retarding will richen up an area. 

[7remmag]

AHHHHHHHHH   I am NOT getting the corralation between the numbers on the VE table and the Numbers on the EGR tables..  for example I have say on the 2000 rpm line at 5% TP 73,  7% 81.5 is left of 60kPa, and 10% 91.5 is right of 60kPa.  So I figure it takes about 12% increase in 81.5 to match 91.5  now if I go to the EGR table and go to 2000 rpm I have 0.625 .   What is 81.5 or 0.625 and what do they have in common.  Sometimes I think I got it and then now I feel like a frickin idiot.   

[mayor]

no worries, you just have to look at it differently.  if it takes you x amount of % change to smooth out a ve area, double that % and apply it to the EGR table in that location.  Say with your example you have 81.5 to the left of the line and 91.5 to the right and that's a 12% difference, now go to 2k on the EGR table and increase the value there by 24%.  Once you make your adjustments, v-tune again to see if you are on the right track.  any clearer?

[7remmag]

That makes sense, but doesn't the EGR table need to be in some what of an order also.  Do you just highlight that cell at 2k and increase the 24% to make the 0.625 into  0.775 can it be that simple.

[mayor]

yes, it can be that simple; however, this is just a starting point.  The difficulty comes in when you don't have a matching cell in the VE tables to line up to the EGR table rpm setting.  You just have to use your best judgement as to what particular cell in the EGR table might be the most affective at adjusting the area you want adjusted, since there is some cases where more than one cell could potentially used to smooth out an area. 

[7remmag]

I only had three areas on the front cyl that I did anything with and they were at the 2000, 2800 and 4400 rpm marks.  On the rear I had to do five and they were at 1200, 2000, 2400, 3200 and 4000.  The marks on the 2000 and 2400 seemed a little close, but the way the numbers matched up I really had no other choice. It would have been a little closer or way to far away. Some of the cells in the higher RPM's I left alone since a few here and there were still yellow.  I'll probably program it into the bike tonight and do a Vtune run. 

One other thing was I used the VE tables to help with the percentages, but I changed the numbers back to where they were when I was done because you had said that those numbers were for dyno and filling in empty cells. correct ?

thanks

[mayor]

I only had three areas on the front cyl that I did anything with and they were at the 2000, 2800 and 4400 rpm marks.  On the rear I had to do five and they were at 1200, 2000, 2400, 3200 and 4000.  The marks on the 2000 and 2400 seemed a little close, but the way the numbers matched up I really had no other choice. It would have been a little closer or way to far away. Some of the cells in the higher RPM's I left alone since a few here and there were still yellow.  I'll probably program it into the bike tonight and do a Vtune run. 

sounds like you are getting it figured out   

One other thing was I used the VE tables to help with the percentages, but I changed the numbers back to where they were when I was done because you had said that those numbers were for dyno and filling in empty cells. correct ?

well yes that what I said, but there's a little more to it than that general statement.     the point I was trying to make was don't just adjust the EGR tables and the VE tables, and call it good enough. You have to verify the new settings with data feedback (v-tune run). 

On my bike, when I made large changes to the EGR tables I also pre-adjusted the potential VE table areas just so the amount of change would be less, and this meant blending to the left in the affected area as well.  Eventhough the bike is getting v-tuned in closed loop, big changes to the EGR tables will affect the smoothness of the bike while v-tuning until the ECM learns the new offsets required (I think JustDennis experienced this his last v-tune).  The v-tune process can do all this for you, so I wouldn't recomend this unless you have a pretty good understanding of what might be the result of your change.

hth,
mayor

[7remmag]

Dang Mayor,  Just when I think I'm getting it you throw in a new wrench. 

[mayor]

just take baby steps, and you should be fine.  The v-tune process will do the rest.   

[7remmag]

If you get a run with to little data can you still use it or should you delete it ?

[mayor]

There was a few times that I collected v-tune data and my usb connection came loose and stopped the data collection.  I used those v-tune runs because I had a good bit of green in places.     It's not a good idea to do this if you don't follow up with another run though, since even the yellow cells will get transferred during the V-tune calibration.  Just use your best judgement whether the data collected helps fill in holes of your tune, or if the data collected is in easily collectable areas (say idle, cruising cells  ). 

[mayor]

here's some the data from your v-tune run 8:

EGR Effects chart:


estimated affected areas on your VE tables:


looks like you're getting the EGR's dialed in pretty good. 

looks like the areas that you might want to focus a little more on:

front- 1,600 rpm, 2,000 rpm, 2,400 rpm, and 2,800 rpm. 

rear-  1,600 rpm, 2,000 rpm, 2,400 rpm, 2,800 rpm, 3,200 rpm, 3,600 rpm , and 4,000 rpm

Your close now, but try adding 20% more to the above ranges and see what that does to the VE's.

you might want to reduce the front egr values a little more, maybe something like an addition 10% at 4,000 rpm, and 20% at 4,400 & 5,200 rpms

you're doing good, just hang in there you almost have it.   

[7remmag]

Thanks a lot Mayor, I'm going to owe you big time for all the help.  I've done one run since you posted this and didn't seem to make a lot of change.  I keep trying to get my VE charts and stuff on here but seems to be a trick I'm missing.  Was ok when using the camara and then down loading.

Thanks again

[mayor]

I host everything I post on photobucket.   That way I'm not restricted on the size of the file, plus it doesn't take up site storage space. Send me your last v-tune run and the cal that was ran on it when you get a chance.