Big Bore cyl views

[tmwmoose]

Going to be refreshing a 4.125 top end soon last bore never really held up and have pretty much absorbed the views on Axtell and the Rev performance stuff which if I understand is pretty much a-ok now ? with the ring issue addressed? I don't see any discussion on  Jims cylinders ? lot of there motors are out there they holding up? or are they wearring fast ? issues? and we are talking cylinders .

[Kleetus]

Mark,


I talked with S&S a while back and they are willing to make a set of cylinders for the 107 or 117 (stock cylinder length) with the HD stock stud pattern. I think they said the cost was comparable to others on the market. I am unfamiliar with the new offerings from Jims. I sent you a pm so be looking for it.


Kleetus

[Azgunner]

I've had Axtell 4.125"  cylinders go out of round on me twice. All I can tell you is whose cylinders I wouldn't use.

[RevFastEddy]

I am using S&S 4.125 cylinders... 3rd year and running great.. I am also using S&S/Hastings rings with TotalSeal second rings..

[Kleetus]

I've had Axtell 4.125"  cylinders go out of round on me twice. All I can tell you is whose cylinders I wouldn't use.

Did you ever figure out why they got out of round. I experienced that too and the company couldn't explain why it happened. They re-bored .010" over to 4.135" and we installed the new coated pistons. However, I'm experiencing knocking again like piston slap after 4000 miles. I need to call them and try and sort this out. It's very embarrassing to have such a noisy motor with such a large investment. Having had 3 back surgeries in the past 7 months I haven't had the energy to fool with it.

[tmwmoose]

I am using S&S 4.125 cylinders... 3rd year and running great.. I am also using S&S/Hastings rings with TotalSeal second rings..

would you know if  the spigot dimentions are the same as the axtells which my cases are bored for? do you use a cometic base gasket as well?

[tmwmoose]

I've had Axtell 4.125"  cylinders go out of round on me twice. All I can tell you is whose cylinders I wouldn't use.

Did you ever figure out why they got out of round. I experienced that too and the company couldn't explain why it happened. They re-bored .010" over to 4.135" and we installed the new coated pistons. However, I'm experiencing knocking again like piston slap after 4000 miles. I need to call them and try and sort this out. It's very embarrassing to have such a noisy motor with such a large investment. Having had 3 back surgeries in the past 7 months I haven't had the energy to fool with it.

Kleetus, just thinkin how about having MTC do the Axtell cyl 

[Hillside Motorcycle]

I am using S&S 4.125 cylinders... 3rd year and running great.. I am also using S&S/Hastings rings with TotalSeal second rings..

would you know if  the spigot dimentions are the same as the axtells which my cases are bored for? do you use a cometic base gasket as well?

S&S spigot bores are larger.  Axtell case bore dimensions are 4.310-4.315".
I heard MTC, bores the OE cylinder to accept a ductile iron liner, that accepts 4.125" pistons??
Scott

[tmwmoose]

S&S spigot bores are larger.  Axtell case bore dimensions are 4.310-4.315".
I heard MTC, bores the OE cylinder to accept a ductile iron liner, that accepts 4.125" pistons??
Scott
[/quote]
                    Well I guess that may deside which cylinder I'll use unless they can be turned down?
                       Yes MTC has a sleaving program as well as 4.125 pistons to

[Deye76]

This is not a slam on Axtell, but I have to wonder if there is something going on with their equipment (boring).
I had them bore a set of SE 4.060" cylinders, rattled from first start up. Fast forward a couple seasons, had a local guy bore the SE cylinders, quiet.  JE/Axtell pistons in both.
I think Axtell is a fine company, and Ron always helpful.

[02GhostRiderVA]

Wonder if it was only a specific period that the cylinder were affected?  I purchased a Axtell 107ci kit (all bore) two years ago this month and it currently has 9K miles on it, with no slapping. 

[Azgunner]

I've had Axtell 4.125"  cylinders go out of round on me twice. All I can tell you is whose cylinders I wouldn't use.

Did you ever figure out why they got out of round. I experienced that too and the company couldn't explain why it happened. They re-bored .010" over to 4.135" and we installed the new coated pistons. However, I'm experiencing knocking again like piston slap after 4000 miles. I need to call them and try and sort this out. It's very embarrassing to have such a noisy motor with such a large investment. Having had 3 back surgeries in the past 7 months I haven't had the energy to fool with it.

Quite honestly that is something that Axtell will have to investigate or they can choose to blame the tune, the ring gap, the break-in or anything else one could think of. I've been a CNC machinist/ME for the last 23 years & there are many things that can cause an out of round condition or distortion to develop. Changes in material properties, manufacturing processes from actual machining to stress relieving or lack thereof, change in product design, tolerances of mating parts, etc. to mention a few possibilities. Somewhere there is variation in the process. Also if the problem is not consistent or repeatable it can be very difficult to figure out the root cause which may be why they suggest there are causes other than the cylinders themselves.

My cylinders started out round, but began distorting within a few thousand miles (I posted photos of them). I bought new pistons & had the cylinders bored o/s. Cylinders were good for about 500 miles, not one drop of blow-by. After about 500 mi. tons of blow-by & oil usage. So now spending more $$$ on new pistons & cylinders. I just can't afford another crap shoot. The engine was set-up & broke-in correctly & I'm not going start answering all the "well did you check this" type questions... yes I did.

To my knowledge Axtell has had a great reputation for a lot of years, but there at least is an intermittent problem that has developed within the last year & a half or so. This issue has affected more than a few engine builders who use their products though they don't publish this in the various forums. I absolutely believe Axtell has the expertise & knowledge to manufacture good product. I hope they are able to figure out why some of their cylinders kits are going out of round & get it corrected. There is no ill will meant on my part regarding this, just my experience.

[Lovetoride007]

I bought a Axtell 107 kit and the piston to wall clearance was to loose ,I sent the pistons , cyl, and the rings back and they agreed ,they refit the pistons to proper clearance and sent them back but with out the rings ,i called and they said I never sent them , That was aggravating ,I ordered a new set of rings ,and they were not  cheap, 4  weeks later a get a call and they found my rings ,they sent them ,but now I had two sets of rings, little did I know I would need them later,
I put the top end together and ran it for 1200 miles and I found a oil leak that looked like a head gasket leak ,I took it apart pulled the heads and while I had the heads off I pulled the cyls, and to my suprise a found a horizontal wear groove in the bottom of the cyl, never seen anything like it before , right where the bottom ring bottomed out it wore a ridge in the cyl, enough to feel with your nail, My engine builder advised not to send them back again for fear I would have more issues ,He thought they got some bad cyl,so he recommended to re sleeve the cyl with  Darton sleeves ,says I would not have any problems with the Darton sleeves , He is just about done with them, needless to say I have not had a very good experience with Axtell products

[fatboi1959]

Been kind of waiting for a thread this. I have laid low and you know what...to heck with it. It's a lot of money to spend to find out you would have been better off with ANYBODY'S cylinders But Axtell's. Being a marine engineer for 26 years and being belittled to the point of no return don't make me want to spend more money with a company. I had streaking in both cylinders,the rear the worst. I had a machine shop measure the cylinders and half way down on the rear cylinder my clearance was .0069, pretty bad for 6,800 miles. I'm told i was lucky, most don't last that long.
I sold the cylinders for a pittance on this site and moved on. The measurements were so inconsistent it was unbelievable! Of course you know it was all the way from my tune to to hot a spark plug and of course there's the timing! I was told my motor just wasn't HAPPY! Well i know who isn't happy and went on to ask the powers to be isn't the oil supposed to lube the cylinders? My AFR with the T-Max was spot-on and was told that Axtell could write a better map than James R himself! Not! Anyway, i was asked to please send my parts back and they would analyze them,at my cost of course. Like the idiot i can be at times i paid about $50.00 to send Chaz my parts and after a couple weeks after not hearing anything i called them. Chaz answered the phone and said they had looked my parts over and said all the things i described above. I then gave him my card number to send the parts back. He never offered to help with the shipping. There went another $100.00 for nothing. I sold the cylinders to a racer for $200.00 dollars. After that i started rebuilding the engine with someone elses cylinders. We fired the engine up and it ran for 5 seconds and nothing, it died. After dis-assembly we found a tiny speck of metal most likely from the cylinders that found it's way into the front camshaft bearing and locked up the cam breaking both chains, ruining the campmate and cams. Speculation? Sure but so was the speculation from Axtell. I bought a 120r and will finish the rebuild on the 117 next winter,good riding to all. 

[02GhostRiderVA]

This is like stepping into the Twilight Zone!  Seems we had similar issues several years back with Rev Perf and now its surfacing with Axtell.  Not something I would expect from a company with so many years of reputable business.  I will be taking my heads off within the next few months and plan on checking the cylinder -- almost afraid to...

[Hreagle]

About 7 years ago I bought a set of Pistons and cylinders from these guys for a build. I got 400 miles into running it and it developed a major piston slap. Tearing it apart, the rear cylinder bore and piston was scuffed big time. I've built a lot of engines going back to the late 60's, and this is the only time ever I've had a cylinder wall scuff. Of course talking to those guys it was all my fault and they were not willing to do anything to make it right. I bought an .010" oversize set of pistons and had a used set of SE 95" cylinders bored to fit them at a local shop. I never had a problem with them, and they're still running today. That's my last purchase from those guys.

Eagle

[fatboi1959]

 

[7hogs]

You would think someone would be paying attention to this and fixing the problem. Only time will tell

[Don D]

Harley Davidson Bigger Bore cylinders are a very stable product when bored and honed oversized and a CP piston is used.
This gives 114", 114" VS 117". Isn't 114" enough size to have peace of mind that no issues will occur and normal reliability will be realized and sacrafice 3"? They are not expensive.
I sleeved my 4.125" cylinders which started as 88" stockers and have done a few more. It is not and will not be a business for me, I do heads, but that said they worked well. MTC sleeves them too and theirs work well plus set up reliably at .002" with their pistons. I have been told Revolution Performance has a robust product now and that may be the case but I have no first hand experience yet. Tman does however and that was his cylinder of choice for his Bonneville flyer. When good companys have issues they buckle down and get them figured out. Pendulum swings back. I don't want to be in the mix but still have done some just for the challenge and fun.

[Kleetus]

Harley Davidson Bigger Bore cylinders are a very stable product when bored and honed oversized and a CP piston is used.
This gives 114", 114" VS 117". Isn't 114" enough size to have peace of mind that no issues will occur and normal reliability will be realized and sacrafice 3"? They are not expensive.
I sleeved my 4.125" cylinders which started as 88" stockers and have done a few more. It is not and will not be a business for me, I do heads, but that said they worked well. MTC sleeves them too and theirs work well plus set up reliably at .002" with their pistons. I have been told Revolution Performance has a robust product now and that may be the case but I have no first hand experience yet. Tman does however and that was his cylinder of choice for his Bonneville flyer. When good companys have issues they buckle down and get them figured out. Pendulum swings back. I don't want to be in the mix but still have done some just for the challenge and fun.

Don,
In the grand scheme of things, this 114 using the HD cylinders and CP pistons may be a less expensive way for me to go. What is that CP piston like? is it a flat top or dished (how many cc's)? I looked on the CP web site but didn't see them.
Thanks
Kleetus

[Don D]

May work
Depends on your case bore dimensions, the HD cylinders have a longer spigot, ~.625" IIRC

[Deye76]

"What is that CP piston like? is it a flat top or dished"
It's usually described as a 113". 114" brings RevPerf to mind.
IIRC Headquarters uses a dished CP piston. They can be had in flattop also, but likely special order (2 sets).

[Don D]

Last one I did would not clean the cylinder at .005 OS (without excessive clearance) so we went to HQ next available oversize which was .015. That yielded 114"

[funracer2]

same thing axtell noise a shop(I WOUNT NAME) said it was the t-body plate rattle bulls## it was thepistons out of round 3thou on one and 2 on the other bore 10tho over then nice and quit   now a 120r we will see how long it last

[djl]

I resurrected  this thread from earlier this year as I, like some others, have laid back from posting my experience with Axtell.  With all the information on this and other forums, I don't understand why guys keep buying Axtell motor kits with all the evidence that their cylinders have issues?

I won’t bother to bore the forum with details; all the excuses for the failures of Axtell’s cylinders have been posted in other threads.  However, I have had two rounds with a 107” Mountain motor kit.

Round 1 - bike started and ran quiet for about 300 miles before becoming noisy.  At 1100 mile and after chasing valve train noise and addressing every possible source, polled the top end. Cylinders were scored and pistons scuffed; sent all back to Axtell.   The first set was set up at .002” and, according to Axtell, when they examined the parts the cylinders were belled in the middle (>.004”) and there was “evidence of micro welding” on the rings.  Axtell offered no reasons for these problems and their solution was to bore to 4.135, I purchase a new set of pistons and pay shipping both ways.  Not having a lot of options at that point, I agree. 

Round 2 â€" Got the cylinders/pistons back and reassembled the motor; this time the piston to cylinder clearance was set up at .0025”.  I wondered, hmmmmmm, why .002” the first time and .0025”? Is this stuff trial and error?  Anyway, the motor was noisy from the jump.   After 800 miles, I pulled the top end down again; same "Potty mouth", scored cylinders and scuffed pistons.  Sent the parts to an independent machinist for measurement and the cylinder to piston clearance was >.004” and the cylinders were tapered >.001”.  Sent the parts back to Axtell and they confirmed the independent measurements.  I wanted new set of cylinders/pistons but Axtell would only offer the Round 1 solution; that’s when we parted ways.

There is a lot more to tell but I am not a machinist or an expert engine builder but it is clear to me that Axtell has issues with the liner bonding to the cylinder, or something of that nature.  What I don’t understand is why no one has taken them on and called bullshit to the excuses they offer like, improper cleaning/assembly, improper heat cycling/break in, wrong timing, bad tune, ran the motor hard to early, oil cooler affecting oil flow, etc.

Why isn’t the fact that there are many others that have had the same experience that I have had talked about more on this and other forums?  IMHO one of the most important benefits of this and similar forums is the sharing of information, particularly about vendors, their products and customer service.   We can babble on and on about how good a vendor is but there seems to be some resistance to callinga  spade a spade when the talk goes negative.  I have nothing against Axtell and although I have never met the Axtell guys, I am sure they are great guys to sit down and have a beer with.  But business is business and doing business with Axtell has cost me a lot of money and kept one of my motorcycles off the road for a long time.  I want to keep the topic alive so anyone thinking about buying an Axtell kit can be aware of the experience some of us have had and might want to talk to those of us that have had disappointing results with Axtell stuff before making a purchase.

BTW, I have since tried the OEM cylinder/liner solution and the liner in the front cylinder slipped .006” in 150 miles; I won’t be trying that again.  I am now conversant on things like case bore, piston spigot, etc.  Live and learn’ it’s a shame it has to be so damned expensive for the consumer when the vendor won’t  stand behind their product.