New to TTS

[07heri]

Hi guys.  I have been reading up on the TTS threads and all I can say is wow.  What a ton of information to absorb.  I did my first VTune run tonight and I definitely didn't hit the big numbers like I've seen on some of the posts here.  Here's my first of probably 100 questions.  I ride pretty mellow for the most part, very seldom seeing 3500 rpms.  When I do the VTune runs is it a must to be running this thing up in 5k rpm area if I'll never see it in normal riding?  Tonight I tried to follow some of the advice here and seemed to have caught alot of the low areas with plenty of hits.  What I would like to know is would I still get a decent tune if I did one VTune run riding the bike like I normally would to get a baseline histogram of where I normally am.  Then when I go out and do VTune runs shoot for one or two blocks up, down and sideways, in excess of my normal riding habits?  I guess I don't get the point of running the snot out of it in the higher rpm's if I never ride there.  Just wondering if I hit every cell in my riding range plus one or two would I still establish a decent enough VE table?     

[wurk_truk]

Do you think 'riding the snot out of it' will hurt the bike?  It will NOT.

You NEED to get to, at a minimum, 5000 rpm and fill out a complete VE table.  Everything is inter related and I feel it is a MUST do.

Read some more... because you do not 'get it' yet.  No short cuts here.  If you cannot commit to the amount of work necessary..........  the bike will run crappy and reflect back... the amount of time you put into it.

Garbage in..........  Garbage out.   Good data in.......  GREAT tune out.

If you tune like you describe... you will miss filling out all the rpm ranges at 80 MAP, and THAT is crucial. 

Even if you ride 99 44/100% of the time like you describe, if you do not fill the VEs to 80 MAP up to 5000 rpm... that ONE time you DO go over your 'riding range' serous trouble could exist.

[mcouture]

Keep reading and keep Vtuning.  The more you do the more you'll learn.   It'll come to you.   You may even become addicted like some of us here!  The wealth of knowledge here is awesome.   

[Sporty 48]

07heri,
You know, this is something I have wondered about but never followed up on.
There are interconnected tables that reflect controls linked to other tables, so if you change one thing, you can effect everything such as tables: CLB (Closed Loop Bias), AE (Acceleration Enrichment) and DE (Deceleration Enleanment). There may be other tables as well.
Not so much interested in top end myself, just want this baby to purr like a kitten or scream like a horny bitch at my whim.

[mayor]

at the very least you need to reach the cells just on the outside of your typical riding range, and that goes for higher percent throttle (or lambda if it's a lambda system) and for higher rpm's.  The ECM uses all surrounding cells to determine what it needs to do, so if you don't fill in all the data then it reverts to base cal settings...which may or may not be right.  The problem will come in when you switch from the closed loop function over to open loop.  Your system is only closed loop for a portion of your general riding, there's some areas when you are in open loop even while in normal riding conditions.   If your open loop areas are too lean, then you will likely pull timing..which will reduce the performance of your bike.  The other concern is when you do decide to romp on it that one time, and it's totally in uncharted territory. 

when you said your bike ran worse after v-tuning, can you list your build details?  and post the ve charts created from the Vtune software (when you combined the data recording with vtune enabled calibration)? 

[07heri]

at the very least you need to reach the cells just on the outside of your typical riding range, and that goes for higher percent throttle (or lambda if it's a lambda system) and for higher rpm's.  The ECM uses all surrounding cells to determine what it needs to do, so if you don't fill in all the data then it reverts to base cal settings...which may or may not be right.  The problem will come in when you switch from the closed loop function over to open loop.  Your system is only closed loop for a portion of your general riding, there's some areas when you are in open loop even while in normal riding conditions.   If your open loop areas are too lean, then you will likely pull timing..which will reduce the performance of your bike.  The other concern is when you do decide to romp on it that one time, and it's totally in uncharted territory. 

when you said your bike ran worse after v-tuning, can you list your build details?  and post the ve charts created from the Vtune software (when you combined the data recording with vtune enabled calibration)?

I didn't say the bike ran worse, I've only done 1 VTune to experiment and get used to the software.  But you did answer my question about how far I need to reach out to get a decent tune.  I will continue to try and reach the high rpms and find some steep hills to try and get into the higher throttle or map positions.  Based on only one VT run it seems so easy to get the rpms up but still being light on the throttle.  Do you suggest finding a couple steep hills and going up and down them for a half hour? 

As far as build details there really arent any.  Its a stock 07 Heritage with Rinehart staggered slipons, not true duals.  I am picking up a Big sucker next week and thats all I really plan to do with it until winter when I would like to put in cams.  I will get serious with the tune next week when I install the air cleaner, but for the next week or so I just plan on getting comfortable with VTunes and learning what I need for the basics.

Other than filling in the squares the biggest unknown right now is where to set up the CLB tables.  Right now it's at 778 across the entire top row and 720 for every cell below.  We can easily see high 90's for weeks at a time and don't want to be running hot.  If I had my choice I'd rather be seeing less MPG and cooler engine temps.  So if you have any feedback on those settings I probably should decide those before I get serious about filling in the cells.

Thanks,

07heri

[wurk_truk]

Good Deal!  member 07 heri.  After this is all over... you will enjoy the new tune... AND... as you grow your bike, you will be more comfortable with v-tuning, etc.  each time you change a part and develop a new tune.  I'm quite happy that you have come completely to the Kool Aide side of things!!!

Folks on here (HTT) are MORE than willing to help you with you tuning progress. 

[mayor]

As far as build details there really arent any.  Its a stock 07 Heritage with Rinehart staggered slipons, not true duals.

make sure your o2 sensors are adequately in the exhaust flow.  The bungs are too deep on some exhausts which will keep the o2 sensors from taking good readings.

I set my clb's to 762, but you could go as rich as 781.

here's a v-tune process I posted earlier this year (this will work for both lambda and TPS based v-tunes):

1. short shift the first couple of gears- meaning once you start moving, shift through 1st and 2nd gears to get into 3rd gear (be careful not to overly lug the engine). Gently do roll on's from the low rpm's in third gear to the high rpm's (as high as RPM's as you feel comfortable with...I took mine to 5.5-6k), repeat in 4th, repeat in 5th, repeat in 6th.  Make sure you're not accelerating too fast, or you will exceed the maximum MAP.  The more you get this area tuned the smoother it will feel (adding some timing might help too, depending on the engine and base cal)

2. Do some controlled decels slowly with pressure on the throttle (what I would call dragging the decel), and also do some fast decels at speed in the upper rpm's to get the far left side cells. 

3. find some hills, and short shift through the gears before gently rolling on the throttle. Remember the higher the gear, the higher the MAP.  If you find that you're not getting hi-MAP cells in the early RPM's, increase the gearing used.

4. find a road that you can ride fast on (closed course of course   ), and wind out 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th gears with several different throttle ranges (making sure not to accel to fast, or you will exceed the allowable v-tune MAP).  The higher the gear the higher the MAP, but the rate of acceleration is a key as well.   If you find yourself uncomfortable winding 5th gear out (because a closed course is not available), then increase the rate of throttle pressure running in 3rd and 4th.  Running several runns in each gear at various rate of throttle pressure (rate of acceration) will help cover a wider MAP range (and TPS for the AFR based cals)

5. Ride some hi-way speeds (65-75mph) in 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6ths gears...and do some controlled "passing" accelerations in those gears.  Start out at 1,800-2,00 rpms and gently roll on the throttle in each of those gears to about 4,000 rpm, then do controlled decels (holding the throttle back on decel), switch gears and do it again.  Each gear will change the amount of MAP (or TPS). 

6. Ride some off hi-way speeds (35-45 mph zones) in 2nd, 5th and 6th gears.   

7. Gently take 1st and 2nd gears to the upper rpm's using controlled accerations (meaning- don't just twist the wick).

hope this helps...

[cts1950]

I am glad you made it over here. There is a wealth of info and people who have answers.

[BubbaRuney]

I'm new to this as well , not trying to hijack your thread, but the one thing that I've learned is that a remote monitor is extremely valuable in hitting as many cells as possible in the shortest amount of time.  Mayor is a great help and if you follow his and others instructions it gets easier everyday. And as Wurk stated "you need to be committed to spending the time and not skipping any steps" 

[avman]

Hi and welcome! also-not to hijack-I am gong to H and D Cycles soon to buy my TTS MT and a dyno-tune/map building session with Heath. '11 V-Rod Muscle only mods from stock: V&H dual slipons, Amsoil AF. will I/should I also be 'V-Tuning' after this dyno session?
I joined this forum due to the wealth of  TTS knowledge here-and Steve Cole posts here too 

[ssls6]

Hi guys.  I have been reading up on the TTS threads and all I can say is wow.  What a ton of information to absorb.  I did my first VTune run tonight and I definitely didn't hit the big numbers like I've seen on some of the posts here.  Here's my first of probably 100 questions.  I ride pretty mellow for the most part, very seldom seeing 3500 rpms.  When I do the VTune runs is it a must to be running this thing up in 5k rpm area if I'll never see it in normal riding?
  Tonight I tried to follow some of the advice here and seemed to have caught alot of the low areas with plenty of hits.  What I would like to know is would I still get a decent tune if I did one VTune run riding the bike like I normally would to get a baseline histogram of where I normally am.  Then when I go out and do VTune runs shoot for one or two blocks up, down and sideways, in excess of my normal riding habits?  I guess I don't get the point of running the snot out of it in the higher rpm's if I never ride there.  Just wondering if I hit every cell in my riding range plus one or two would I still establish a decent enough VE table?     

You've made a good start. Generate a new tune and get ready to go again. 3rd gear will allow you to get into high rpm's without high speed   Lugging the engine at low rpm's and high throttle rates will get you high manifold pressures.  Do both on each run and have fun. Gen a new tune and go again. Pat yourself on th back for reprogramming a modern fuel injection system.

Where you normally ride are the cells you want most accurate but hitting the other cells makes the overall tune better. Brag to your friends when your done. . Good luck and be safe.

[strokerjlk]

'11 V-Rod Muscle only mods from stock: V&H dual slipons, Amsoil AF. will I/should I also be 'V-Tuning' after this dyno session?

depends on how good the dyno tune is.
hopefully whoever you have tune the v rod will do a complete tune. you shouldn't need to do anything after the tune but ride.
ask questions,if the dyno tuner is going to use v tune on your v rod on the dyno,I would look elsewhere.
think about this....look at all the cells on a big twin that dont get sampled with v tune,now look at how many cells wouldnt get hit with a higher reving v rod.

[avman]

'11 V-Rod Muscle only mods from stock: V&H dual slipons, Amsoil AF. will I/should I also be 'V-Tuning' after this dyno session?

depends on how good the dyno tune is.
hopefully whoever you have tune the v rod will do a complete tune. you shouldn't need to do anything after the tune but ride.
ask questions,if the dyno tuner is going to use v tune on your v rod on the dyno,I would look elsewhere.
think about this....look at all the cells on a big twin that dont get sampled with v tune,now look at how many cells wouldnt get hit with a higher reving v rod.

thanks for the reply-Heath of H and D Cycles is doing the work, they post here, and Doc of Doc's Performance and Steve Cole both recommended them.

[strokerjlk]

thanks for the reply-Heath of H and D Cycles is doing the work

sounds like a plan.

[07heri]

Well got the Big Sucker on today.  Did 2 VTune runs.  First one was pretty mellow.  2nd one I got up 4K and 35% throttle.  Still need to go more but I was happy that all the squares were green except for a few on the outside edges.  Wound it up and did decels which filled the left side in nicely.  I will do a couple more and then see if I can post pics on here for advice.

One question concerning VE's.  What is exactly is changing fron one VTune run to the next?  The bike isn't changing and I'm not fully understanding what is going on.  First run has some red and pink...secong run has less pink and more white.  What exactly is that telling me?  The top of the chart says change in percent...but what does that really mean.  Based on what I'm reading the VE tables are the most critical to get right, but like the simple mind that I am I still don't get what's changing and what it represents. 

Another observation:  rear cylinder has way more pink than the front.  Once I understand the question I posed above it will probably answer the question...but...will the rear eventually catch up with the front after a certain number of VTunes?  I somewhat understand that the numbers will be different from front to rear but it seems like the front is changing to white quicker than the rear.  I don't know if the O2 sensors have anything to do with it but they seem to be flickering at a pretty even rate.

Thanks for all the help.

07heri 

[mayor]

One question concerning VE's.  What is exactly is changing from one VTune run to the next?  The bike isn't changing and I'm not fully understanding what is going on.  First run has some red and pink...second run has less pink and more white.  What exactly is that telling me?  The top of the chart says change in percent...but what does that really mean. 

Each time you combine collected data with the calibration ran, the V-tune software messages the ve tables based on the o2 data it recieved while adjusting to reach the pre-set clb or lambda.  White/light pink cells means the data collected matches closely to the data set in the calibration.  The goal is v-tune until the calibration created is the one that your bike needs to have mostly white cells in the ve tables, which means that the base VE tables represent the actual ve's of the engine. 

Another observation:  rear cylinder has way more pink than the front.  Once I understand the question I posed above it will probably answer the question...but...will the rear eventually catch up with the front after a certain number of VTunes?

yes.

I somewhat understand that the numbers will be different from front to rear but it seems like the front is changing to white quicker than the rear. 

the front ve tables may have been initially closer than the rear ve tables when you started. No worries, it all comes out in the wash (see answer above).