The sort of thing that gets my attention

[whittlebeast]

...What would interest me is if someone could take a scattergraph from a completely V-tuned bike, then have the same bike professionally dyno-tuned and another graph made for comparison, and then explain the differences in detail.  Otherwise, I'll be more than completely satisfied to stick to using Datamaster and V-tune and have a great running engine.

Bob

y]

Feel free to send me several generic 02 data logs about 45 min long off the same bike in a couple of degrees of tune and I will.  The more vehicles I look at the more that I am finding patterns on the graphs.  It is getting really fairly easy to see the differences in the tunes.  The more radical motors that are well tuned are the most interesting.  The 1300 HP Mustang I am doing now is way cool.  I will post those when I get it dialed in.

AW

[FLTRI]

It is getting really fairly easy to see the differences in the tunes. 

We can easily see differences. What we are looking for is the analytical technique you have developed to understand what the differences represent and how to use that to make tuning these engines easier.
Please explain in some detail what those differences you see mean.
Thanks,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

On the fuel side of things, what you see on the MAP vs PW scatter graph is that the pattern for any given rpm range is quite tight and linear.  The untuned motors have a very random pattern.  Tame motors once tuned, have a tight, linear pattern at most points in the graph.  Many of the points off the general pattern are related to AE and DE.

On the timing side of things, the variation in the way people set up motors is incredible.  Some motors are set up to give timing based almost entirely based on engine speed.  Others defy logic.  All very interesting.  I am thinking about trying to get a way to do this with stock odb2 cars to see how the car manufactures do things.

It is quite easy to see where the o2s are really leaning hard on the tune. 

On the car I am tuning now I did find a bust in the ECU code that helped the coders home in on the bust in the code.

Generally I am not really finding ways to make tuning faster, but I can sure see if the tune is getting close.

AW

[whittlebeast]

Here is a plot off the nastiest cammed motor I have ever attempted to tune.  Notice how the plot is developing very noticeable patterns similar to the way the tuned Harleys did.  Untuned motors have a very random pattern to these plots.

I am going to create a street tune now to see if it is possible to get the bottom right (blue) section of the plot to tune in.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/mustangms3/MLV_001.jpg

I bet it would be really easy to spot when a customer got hosed by a some other less than talented tuner and needs to be retuned.

AW

[FLTRI]

...I bet it would be really easy to spot when a customer got hosed by a some other less than talented tuner and needs to be retuned.

AW

Develop it and call it Tunebuster. Then folks can use MegaSquirt to run your program.
You can have seminars to teach folks how to pay and use MegaSquirt then how to analyze scatter graphs! $$$
Brilliant!!!
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Here is an interesting example.  Both sides are the same bike and the same ride.  On the left is the RPM vs throttle position.  The colors indicate O2 reading.  Red or near 1000 is butt rich.  Blue or low voltage is near 0 volts or dead lean.  Areas that show up with lots of blue are leaner than 14.6 AFR.  The motor was V-tuned per the directions several times and then the 14.6 AFRs were changed to 14.6 and this test was run to verify the VEs.  The averages/patterns should have never gone strong lean (blue).  If the test was rerun with the entire AFR map set to 14.0 should give almost no blue dots anywhere.  Once we get this test closer we will move on to the 14.0 AFR target test.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesA.jpg

This tune is far from finished even thou the owner thought it felt fairly close when running closed loop.  He reported if felt bad in open loop.

Comparing the two sides and trying to find the patterns on the two graphs is why most all systems have gone to speed density VE tables.  Alpha-n presentation like PC uses on the pc3 and pc5 is at least challenging for the tuners.

Have fun tuning.

AW

[hrdtail78]

If VE's are different because of.......  Wouldn't we want to see other things different?  Hard to see while only reading three things the ECM is.

Let's give the engine what wants. Our job is to figure that out.  FI, carbed or a controlled drip on a manifold.

Is Bob on ignore?  Looking forward to your feed back to him.

[whittlebeast]

Same bike after a little more tweaking.  Notice that the o2 integrators are working very little now.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesC.jpg

Now we need to retest at 14.5 AFR almost everywhere.

AW

[whittlebeast]

Compare this to the plots in post 48.  Same bike but retuned on a more balanced exhaust system.  I may have to get him to lean on the RPM a little harder and see if any new patterns develop.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesD.jpg

[whittlebeast]

Here is what a TTS tuned bike looks like when the AFR targets are set to 14.5 and retested.  In theory, the entire map should have come up with a slightly red tint to it with no all blue areas, as they indicate dead lean.  Now the hand VE tuning is going to start.  If all goes well we will have everywhere 80 KPA and below will be random dots with a slight red tint.

Then we will move on to 14.0 AFR aiming for red everywhere.

Note that this is all done with the O2 bias set to 450 to get the best read of the 02s.  This can all be done with the old SERT provided that you can keep the software connected for an hour ride.  The Alpha-N VE presentation is really restrictive but you can work thru it with time and effort.  In this case, the owner is doing all of the hand tuning.  I have never even seen the bike.  In a few weeks, he plans to take it on a several thousand mile trip.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesE.jpg

AW

[hrdtail78]

 "In theory, the entire map should have come up with a slightly red tint to it with no all blue areas, as they indicate dead lean"

Who's theory?  Red, blue what does it all mean?


"looks like when the AFR targets are set to 14.5 and retested"

Looks like?  Really?  What is the targeted, and what is being data logged?  All complete bull "Potty mouth" unless we have all the facts.  I understand this post is all all about your new product, but we on HTT are a bit smarter.

[whittlebeast]

In that trace I am plotting o2 voltage with the colors.  1000 or red is indicating richer than stoich by quite a bit.  Numbers around 100 are leaner than stoich.

Per TTS under <tools>  <02 voltage calculator>

Lambda  AFR  Volts
0.966   14.18   804
0.967   14.20   803
0.968   14.21   802
0.969   14.22   801
0.970   14.24   799
0.971   14.25   798
0.972   14.27   796
0.973   14.28   795
0.974   14.30   794
0.975   14.31   793
0.976   14.33   792
0.977   14.34   791
0.978   14.36   789
0.979   14.37   788
0.980   14.39   786
0.981   14.40   785
0.982   14.42   783
0.983   14.43   780
0.984   14.45   778
0.985   14.46   775
0.986   14.47   773
0.987   14.49   771
0.988   14.50   768
0.989   14.52   764
0.990   14.53   761
0.991   14.55   758
0.992   14.56   756
0.993   14.58   750
0.994   14.59   746
0.995   14.61   741
0.996   14.62   730
0.997   14.64   645
0.998   14.65   580
0.999   14.67   515
1.000   14.68   450
1.001   14.69   385
1.002   14.71   320
1.003   14.72   255
1.004   14.74   190
1.005   14.75   150
1.006   14.77   142
1.007   14.78   135
1.008   14.80   129
1.009   14.81   124
1.010   14.83   120
1.011   14.84   118
1.012   14.86   116
1.013   14.87   113
1.014   14.89   111
1.015   14.90   109
1.016   14.91   107
1.017   14.93   106
1.018   14.94   104
1.019   14.96   103
1.020   14.97   102
1.021   14.99   101
1.022   15.00   100

[Sporty 48]

Please, yet to find conclusive evidence that this is correct.

...................................................., but we on HTT are a bit smarter.

[whittlebeast]

Please, yet to find conclusive evidence that this is correct.

What proof of anything do you have in life?

All we have is experience and statistics. 

If you let go of an apple it will almost always go down.  Sure the are exceptions like if you happen to be in one of those vertical wind tunnels but...

Andy

[Steve Cole]

You keep forgetting your missing 50% or better of the data! Just to keep things honest you also need to remove any data that's not in steady state, simply because you have no idea what part of transition you got a reading in. Anyone with a basic understand of analyzing data knows the first thing you do it to remove all unwanted/bad data then do you analyses. While it might be fun to plot graphs what does the software do to remove this unwanted/bad data?

[whittlebeast]

Ok   So write a filter based on what ever you want to filter out.  Whats the big deal?

As a side note.  I don't turn off AE and DE as that just adds more problems that it is worth.

[Steve Cole]

No big deal YOUR just not doing it nor are you explaining to people that it needs to be done!

AE and DE are perfect examples (along with plenty of others) of why you would have data that you need to remove as they will clearly showing things in the plots that are not what your looking for and would be very misleading to an untrained person.

[Rider57]

Please, yet to find conclusive evidence that this is correct.

...................................................., but we on HTT are a bit smarter.

Really?.....Mr. 97 posts, just came out of the garage door.
Statements like yours prove that there is, at least, one among us that truly greys that evidence.

[Sporty 48]

Why apply filters when trend lines appear?

Trying to understand, difficult with such strong egos and uncompromising opinions.
With some 97 posts, that makes you twice as smart as me. No small feat.
Lots of real experience here.
And just a whiff of whit.

Please, yet to find conclusive evidence that this is correct.

...................................................., but we on HTT are a bit smarter.

Really?.....Mr. 97 posts, just came out of the garage door.
Statements like yours prove that there is, at least, one among us that truly greys that evidence.

[Rider57]

Bad data is a trend. You have to know or assume it is bad unless you can prove to yourself it is good.
Then you have to prove that any filter is actually filtering the bad data and only the bad data.

[hrdtail78]

Wasn't calling any of you guys smart.    Just smart enough to spot a carpet bagger hocking his snake oil.

[whittlebeast]

Wasn't calling any of you guys smart.    Just smart enough to spot a carpet bagger hocking his snake oil.

Can I safely assume you are referring to Steve from TTS?  Wow he must be offended.

[hrdtail78]

Wasn't calling any of you guys smart.    Just smart enough to spot a carpet bagger hocking his snake oil.

Can I safely assume you are referring to Steve from TTS?  Wow he must be offended.

Perfect example of interpolating wrong data.  Garbage in, garbage out.

[Sporty 48]

What is Whittlebeast selling?
Nothing I can see except some new ideas.
Heresy, like a balanced budget.
Going for an evening ride, you guys are too much.
Sincerely,
Just Out of the Garage

[Steve Cole]

Wasn't calling any of you guys smart.    Just smart enough to spot a carpet bagger hocking his snake oil.

Can I safely assume you are referring to Steve from TTS?  Wow he must be offended.

You can rest assured that if I have something to say, I say it myself. I have no need for anyone else to speak for me.