I thought this only happend to cars and houses!

[codyshop]

I'm hearing from more and more guys who owe more on their bike than current wholesale.  What kind of loans did these guys take out?  Yikes!

[Dennis The Menace]

Ray, it wasnt limited to houses and cars, for sure. 

They probably also added a lot of parts and bling, which isnt worth spit on used bikes now.  I can see how a bike financed at near 100% just 3 years ago could be worth high retail book, but the owner owes more than that on it.  Not that getting high retail book value is realistic anyway.  So, I am sure a lot of folks have let the bikes go back to get out of payments and they know they are upside down.  A lot of wholesaled bikes on eBay right now.

[codyshop]

True that.   I've never understood adding dealer-installed bling/options/upgrades to the initial loan amount as it's simply burned money.    I took in an '04 Wideglide today for seven that the guy still owed eight on.     

[Admiral Akbar]

Heck,

Finance a dirt bike.. Off the show room floor and your upside down easy.. Daughter just did it.. 7200 for a 2011 crf250r.

Max

[HogBag]

Not only bling
There's the whole HD uniform that go's with a new bike !!! and dont forget HD dollars the wet weather gear.

[Nooter99]

In todays economy, I would venture to say that virtually anything you buy that is 100% financed will put you upside down immediately. Houses, cars, bikes, big screen hi-def TV's, stainless appliances, the list goes on and on. The minute you buy it, it loses value, no one is going to pay full retail for something they didn't buy brand new. I haven't financed any high ticket "luxury" items in the last 7-8 years, and try to stay disciplined enough to never do it again. When it comes to things that I consider "wants" and not "needs", or an emergency, if I don't have cash, I wait until I do. I can't imagine how much money I've saved, but I'm sure it's substantial.

[One4Tone]

..i would not be too concerned about owing more than Object is worth..and the main reason is..you're paying for it with dollars that over time will devalue ..so really you come out ahead...not to mention..as far as real estate is concerned..if you can afford it..don't panic..gotta live somewhere..gotta pay rent..so if you own and pay a mortgage you build equity..the problem only arises when you have to sell cause you can no longer afford..when it's make the payment on the scooter and/or car ..or make the mortgage payment..then the toys gotta go...but only then..credit can be a wonderfull thing...but you gotta use it wisely

[FXDBI]

True story after financing the bike ,stg1 mods,pro-pipe and clothing,helmet ect on the magic 7yr HD plan guy was pissed off he didn't include the first service. He was now to broke to afford it and a dealer requirement for them to honor the warranty.....Bob

[PoorUB]

I'm hearing from more and more guys who owe more on their bike than current wholesale.  What kind of loans did these guys take out?  Yikes!

I think it is called an eight year loan, yep, eight years!
When I traded in my '05 on my '10 the finance guru asked me how many years? So I asked him how far our can I go? He told me eight years! I told him if I had to borrow money for eight years to ride I would be walking or riding a well used Honda. He said they get allot of riders financing for the whole eight. I hear for boats they lenders will go out farther yet.

[codyshop]

True story after financing the bike ,stg1 mods,pro-pipe and clothing,helmet ect on the magic 7yr HD plan guy was pissed off he didn't include the first service. He was now to broke to afford it and a dealer requirement for them to honor the warranty.....Bob

Anyone who thinks they need to go to a dealer for routine service to maintain a warranty has bigger problems than just being broke.   

[CraigArizona85248]

True story after financing the bike ,stg1 mods,pro-pipe and clothing,helmet ect on the magic 7yr HD plan guy was pissed off he didn't include the first service. He was now to broke to afford it and a dealer requirement for them to honor the warranty.....Bob

Anyone who thinks they need to go to a dealer for routine service to maintain a warranty has bigger problems than just being broke.

Yep. The guy financed the bike and his and his new costume ... Apparently he's not thinking real clear.

[FSG]

his and his new costume

well that explains it then ................   

[rbabos]

True story after financing the bike ,stg1 mods,pro-pipe and clothing,helmet ect on the magic 7yr HD plan guy was pissed off he didn't include the first service. He was now to broke to afford it and a dealer requirement for them to honor the warranty.....Bob

Anyone who thinks they need to go to a dealer for routine service to maintain a warranty has bigger problems than just being broke.

. Yup. Dealer has never seen my bike in 4 years and never will. All that's required is the SM, and the knowhow to do the work, as well as keeping oil and filter receipts and records of service intervals.
Ron

[codyshop]

True story after financing the bike ,stg1 mods,pro-pipe and clothing,helmet ect on the magic 7yr HD plan guy was pissed off he didn't include the first service. He was now to broke to afford it and a dealer requirement for them to honor the warranty.....Bob

Anyone who thinks they need to go to a dealer for routine service to maintain a warranty has bigger problems than just being broke.

Yep. The guy financed the bike and his and his new costume ... Apparently he's not thinking real clear.

HD Finance allows you to add clothing to the vehicle purchase price/loan amount?   Holy Shyte! 

[Bigs]

My dad used to say "If you can't pay cash you can't afford it". I think my wife took up on that since I had to pay cash for any toys I wanted. Sometimes you have to wait a little longer but it's a lot cheaper than financing and paying interest.
   Bigs

[FXDBI]

True story after financing the bike ,stg1 mods,pro-pipe and clothing,helmet ect on the magic 7yr HD plan guy was pissed off he didn't include the first service. He was now to broke to afford it and a dealer requirement for them to honor the warranty.....Bob

Anyone who thinks they need to go to a dealer for routine service to maintain a warranty has bigger problems than just being broke.

The dealer here states you have to do the first service (1700km) to keep the warrenty intact. Its the only one they ever did for me, but they gave a 1st service included with all 2006 bikes they sold/ordered before christmas 2005. Since I ordered mine in oct05 for spring 06 it was included,back then you still had to order one to insure you got what .  The dealer would order you one for $1000 deposit,and gladly refund it if you changed your mind,they couldnt get enough bikes in Canada to keep them on the showroom floor then.    Bob

[codyshop]

True story after financing the bike ,stg1 mods,pro-pipe and clothing,helmet ect on the magic 7yr HD plan guy was pissed off he didn't include the first service. He was now to broke to afford it and a dealer requirement for them to honor the warranty.....Bob

Here in the 'States, we have the Magnussen-Moss Act which absolutely forbids corporations to require the use of their own dealer network/branded parts/service outlets in order to keep a warranty intact.    Requiring a pre-pay for the first service is currently in the courts here.   

Anyone who thinks they need to go to a dealer for routine service to maintain a warranty has bigger problems than just being broke.

The dealer here states you have to do the first service (1700km) to keep the warrenty intact. Its the only one they ever did for me, but they gave a 1st service included with all 2006 bikes they sold/ordered before christmas 2005. Since I ordered mine in oct05 for spring 06 it was included,back then you still had to order one to insure you got what .  The dealer would order you one for $1000 deposit,and gladly refund it if you changed your mind,they couldnt get enough bikes in Canada to keep them on the showroom floor then.    Bob

[Scooterfish]

Yep HD finance will go out 84 months. Back in the hay day a dealer told me the average add on bike bling & motor clothes financed was $3000 - 5000 per bike. Add some pretty high interest rates to the mix for 84 monthes. I know someone who just bought a 2011. His quote was " the dealer really went to bad for me with HD credit because of my bad credit. I got dinged pretty bad on the interest rate." My guess is he`s paying double the MSRP of bike when financed. 

[Dogmeat]

I toally agree with "if ya' don't have the money, ya' can't afford it".....
I wrote out a check for my '05 FLHTCI when I bought it new in Nov. '04.

The house....bought it in Sept' 1990, and paid it off in April 1996.....I saved a hot damn TON o' coins.....more than enough
to pay for the scooter!!

[PoorUB]

Yep HD finance will go out 84 months. Back in the hay day a dealer told me the average add on bike bling & motor clothes financed was $3000 - 5000 per bike. Add some pretty high interest rates to the mix for 84 monthes. I know someone who just bought a 2011. His quote was " the dealer really went to bad for me with HD credit because of my bad credit. I got dinged pretty bad on the interest rate." My guess is he`s paying double the MSRP of bike when financed. 

I forgot about the bling and motorclothes. I did have the dealer ask me if I wanted to add any riding gear to the loan. I just looked at him like he was insane. I guess lots of new riders, wanting to look the part fall for it.
I just dropped in $25,000, 15% and 8 years into a loan clculator and the buyer would be 6-7 years out before he was right side up on the loan.
This does not cut and past well, but you get the idea. Look at the bottem, $43,000 paid out on a $22,000 bike, and bling. Ya gotta woonder what people are thinking, (or not thinking!)

I plugged in numbers for my first bike and I paid about $2,000 in interest, second bike was $900 interest because I had a trade in and only borrowed 1/2 the value for 3 years.

Payment Monthly Payment Principal Paid Interest Paid Remaining Balance
1 $448.64 $136.14 $312.50 $24,863.86
2 $448.64 $137.84 $310.80 $24,726.03
3 $448.64 $139.56 $309.08 $24,586.47
4 $448.64 $141.30 $307.33 $24,445.16
5 $448.64 $143.07 $305.56 $24,302.09
6 $448.64 $144.86 $303.78 $24,157.23
7 $448.64 $146.67 $301.97 $24,010.56
8 $448.64 $148.50 $300.13 $23,862.06
9 $448.64 $150.36 $298.28 $23,711.70
10 $448.64 $152.24 $296.40 $23,559.46
11 $448.64 $154.14 $294.49 $23,405.32
12 $448.64 $156.07 $292.57 $23,249.25
13 $448.64 $158.02 $290.62 $23,091.23
14 $448.64 $159.99 $288.64 $22,931.24
15 $448.64 $161.99 $286.64 $22,769.24
16 $448.64 $164.02 $284.62 $22,605.22
17 $448.64 $166.07 $282.57 $22,439.15
18 $448.64 $168.15 $280.49 $22,271.01
19 $448.64 $170.25 $278.39 $22,100.76
20 $448.64 $172.38 $276.26 $21,928.39
21 $448.64 $174.53 $274.10 $21,753.86
22 $448.64 $176.71 $271.92 $21,577.14
23 $448.64 $178.92 $269.71 $21,398.22
24 $448.64 $181.16 $267.48 $21,217.07
25 $448.64 $183.42 $265.21 $21,033.64
26 $448.64 $185.71 $262.92 $20,847.93
27 $448.64 $188.04 $260.60 $20,659.89
28 $448.64 $190.39 $258.25 $20,469.51
29 $448.64 $192.77 $255.87 $20,276.74
30 $448.64 $195.18 $253.46 $20,081.56
31 $448.64 $197.62 $251.02 $19,883.95
32 $448.64 $200.09 $248.55 $19,683.86
33 $448.64 $202.59 $246.05 $19,481.28
34 $448.64 $205.12 $243.52 $19,276.16
35 $448.64 $207.68 $240.95 $19,068.47
36 $448.64 $210.28 $238.36 $18,858.19
37 $448.64 $212.91 $235.73 $18,645.29
38 $448.64 $215.57 $233.07 $18,429.72
39 $448.64 $218.26 $230.37 $18,211.45
40 $448.64 $220.99 $227.64 $17,990.46
41 $448.64 $223.75 $224.88 $17,766.71
42 $448.64 $226.55 $222.08 $17,540.16
43 $448.64 $229.38 $219.25 $17,310.77
44 $448.64 $232.25 $216.38 $17,078.52
45 $448.64 $235.15 $213.48 $16,843.37
46 $448.64 $238.09 $210.54 $16,605.28
47 $448.64 $241.07 $207.57 $16,364.21
48 $448.64 $244.08 $204.55 $16,120.12
49 $448.64 $247.13 $201.50 $15,872.99
50 $448.64 $250.22 $198.41 $15,622.77
51 $448.64 $253.35 $195.28 $15,369.42
52 $448.64 $256.52 $192.12 $15,112.90
53 $448.64 $259.72 $188.91 $14,853.18
54 $448.64 $262.97 $185.66 $14,590.21
55 $448.64 $266.26 $182.38 $14,323.95
56 $448.64 $269.59 $179.05 $14,054.36
57 $448.64 $272.96 $175.68 $13,781.41
58 $448.64 $276.37 $172.27 $13,505.04
59 $448.64 $279.82 $168.81 $13,225.22
60 $448.64 $283.32 $165.32 $12,941.90
61 $448.64 $286.86 $161.77 $12,655.04
62 $448.64 $290.45 $158.19 $12,364.59
63 $448.64 $294.08 $154.56 $12,070.51
64 $448.64 $297.75 $150.88 $11,772.76
65 $448.64 $301.48 $147.16 $11,471.28
66 $448.64 $305.24 $143.39 $11,166.04
67 $448.64 $309.06 $139.58 $10,856.98
68 $448.64 $312.92 $135.71 $10,544.06
69 $448.64 $316.83 $131.80 $10,227.22
70 $448.64 $320.79 $127.84 $9,906.43
71 $448.64 $324.80 $123.83 $9,581.62
72 $448.64 $328.86 $119.77 $9,252.76
73 $448.64 $332.98 $115.66 $8,919.78
74 $448.64 $337.14 $111.50 $8,582.64
75 $448.64 $341.35 $107.28 $8,241.29
76 $448.64 $345.62 $103.02 $7,895.67
77 $448.64 $349.94 $98.70 $7,545.73
78 $448.64 $354.31 $94.32 $7,191.42
79 $448.64 $358.74 $89.89 $6,832.68
80 $448.64 $363.23 $85.41 $6,469.45
81 $448.64 $367.77 $80.87 $6,101.68
82 $448.64 $372.36 $76.27 $5,729.32
83 $448.64 $377.02 $71.62 $5,352.30
84 $448.64 $381.73 $66.90 $4,970.57
85 $448.64 $386.50 $62.13 $4,584.07
86 $448.64 $391.33 $57.30 $4,192.73
87 $448.64 $396.23 $52.41 $3,796.51
88 $448.64 $401.18 $47.46 $3,395.33
89 $448.64 $406.19 $42.44 $2,989.13
90 $448.64 $411.27 $37.36 $2,577.86
91 $448.64 $416.41 $32.22 $2,161.45
92 $448.64 $421.62 $27.02 $1,739.83
93 $448.64 $426.89 $21.75 $1,312.95
94 $448.64 $432.22 $16.41 $880.72
95 $448.64 $437.63 $11.01 $443.10
96 $448.64 $443.10 $5.54 $0.00
Totals $43,068.97 $25,000.00 $18,068.97 

© 2009 - LoanAmortizationSchedule.org • Disclaimer • About Us • Contact Us

[harborjohn]

Smart people have been making money off dumb people for a long time.................

[Princess Butt]

I have a few rules about buying anything on a note:

1. Put down enough so you are not upside down in the note. As a rule of thumb, about one third down. This means if you have to get out of it, you aren't having to shell out cash to get out of it. 

2. Always pay extra. If you payment is $327.65 per month, round it up. Round it up to $350, or $400, or $500. The extra should always apply to the principal balance. This whittles away at the principal, which means you will save money on interest charges.

3. Plan to keep it after the payments are finished. I try to keep a vehicle 10 years, so when 10 years is up, I'll either buy a new one, or keep money in reserve to fix the old beast.

4. If you think because it's a limited availability thing it will always be worth more than you owe on it, then fine, place your bet. I don't make that bet. Things are mass produced, and if there is a market shortage, then the manufacturer will step up production. If the manufacturer doesn't make more, someone else will come along and make a substitute.

5. It may be a great deal, but that doesn't mean you should go into debt to buy it. You can't take advantage of every great deal you come across. You only have so much time and money to deal with things.

[tomcat64]

He was now to broke to afford it and a dealer requirement for them to honor the warranty.....Bob


#1,, thats not legal...

#2,, alot of people were borrowing 130% of the value on bikes and more,, of course they are upside down,, takes them about 3 years to get flipped around..

[Scooterfish]

BnEultraclassis.   

Tomcat64        

For the guy who can`t afford the service. Stop by the dealer & request the service free since they require it to honor the warranty. Probably the best option is to get a bud to help him do it & keep the paper work

[mp]

I used to (try to) sell cars for a living.  I'd have guys come in to buy a $30,000 pickup and not have $500 for a down payment.  Can't feel sorry for people like that.

[HyperDetroit]

I have a few rules about buying anything on a note:

1. Put down enough so you are not upside down in the note. As a rule of thumb, about one third down. This means if you have to get out of it, you aren't having to shell out cash to get out of it. 

2. Always pay extra. If you payment is $327.65 per month, round it up. Round it up to $350, or $400, or $500. The extra should always apply to the principal balance. This whittles away at the principal, which means you will save money on interest charges.

3. Plan to keep it after the payments are finished. I try to keep a vehicle 10 years, so when 10 years is up, I'll either buy a new one, or keep money in reserve to fix the old beast.

4. If you think because it's a limited availability thing it will always be worth more than you owe on it, then fine, place your bet. I don't make that bet. Things are mass produced, and if there is a market shortage, then the manufacturer will step up production. If the manufacturer doesn't make more, someone else will come along and make a substitute.

5. It may be a great deal, but that doesn't mean you should go into debt to buy it. You can't take advantage of every great deal you come across. You only have so much time and money to deal with things.

Exactly right.

I paid off one bike a year early, one pickup six months early, and about to pay off another bike two years early.
Credit is a great tool if it's used responsibly.  However, it contributes greatly to someone's poverty through extra costs if it is abused.  Financing a "harley suit" is a prime example of credit abuse.  Just because something is offered, doesn't mean you should follow up on the offer.  Also, you can tell a great deal about someone's character when you examine his/her credit report.   

However, there are times when using credit makes a great deal of sense.  If you can secure a very low interest loan today or pay cash today, securing a loan is a better option due to the up and coming inflation.  Inflation is a great way of wealth transfer from lenders to debtors because the debt is being paid back with the devalued dollars. I have a low interest loan on my pickup and I am in no hurry to pay it back today.  I make my monthly payments, but the further I go the less of  a sting it's going to be on a monthly basis.  I am sure a year or two from now $500 is going to be a whole lot less valuable than it is today.
Hyper

[War Horse]

Judging someones character by credit isn't always a fair assessment, consider somebody who had great credit and had 2 hurricanes come through and litterally wipe out all of their business,after a couple of years of trying to make minimun payments finally settles with all creditors for .45c on the dollar and gets one creditor to go down on your rating....

Has nothing to do with character, if you want to talk about bad character than lets talk about the banks and the way they treat you in a stinking bad economy that they created.....

Wheres my bail out

[tomcat64]

yuppers,, do your own service and keep good records, dates of service, and reciepts for the oils you use, if the MOCO ever suspects a problem they can always call for an oil sample, and NO you do not have to use HD oil, but it does have to be approved for air cooled twin motors..

[Dennis The Menace]

Warhorse, I agree with you....circumstances are sometimes beyond ones control, so the system doesnt take into account those who want to make good on their debts, and those who couldnt care less.

As for the banks, yes they created a lot of mess, but it was a lot of folks who got into loans that should not have that really made things as they are.  Blaming cancer on cigarette companies is kind of the same situation--they didnt make you smoke, but you chose to and assumed the risks in doing so.  My point is that it was the banks and the consumers that made the problems, not banks alone.

What worse is that banks have not been reporting their bad debts properly.  The major banks have bllions in bad loans they will not be able to collect on, but are reporting as receivables assets on their books.  So, they are overinflating their value and will some day have to account for this, and its not going to be pretty. They need to write good, low risk collectable loans with businesses and individuals in order to offset the bad loans that need to be wrotten off.  That is why they are not in a hurry to do short sales or speed foreclosure sales....they need to do them over time as they write new loans to offset the bad ones.

Anyway, after trying to buy 2 foreclosures in the past year, I have learned how the game works, and why.  One bank wanted us to wait 9 months on a buying a foreclosure, as their forecast loan writes went out that far to offset that particular foreclosure loss.  We told them good luck, and walked.

[War Horse]

I do understand the economics of the situation Dennis, I was trying to make a point of using credit ratings to judge a persons character is not an absolute, unless they look into the particulars of that rating, and I know they don't take the time to do that...

Very frustrating times and all involved better take the time to ensure proper decisions.....

[Dennis The Menace]

Warhorse, we totally agree.

[Mix01FLHT]

I do understand the economics of the situation Dennis, I was trying to make a point of using credit ratings to judge a persons character is not an absolute, unless they look into the particulars of that rating, and I know they don't take the time to do that...

Very frustrating times and all involved better take the time to ensure proper decisions.....

Credit???   Whats that??   I pay with cash, dont have a checking account, dont have a credit card, no car payment, no bike payment, no WIFE and No Credit...   

[Slider52501]

Bad things can happen to good folks(ask me, I can tell ya), finally out of the mess and dont deal with credit, banks or cards anymore myself.

[War Horse]

We tore all our cards up, with the exception of one, and that one we asked to have the limit lowered on, sometimes you have to have one for things like motels, rental car , etc.

Now we pay in cash or debit card, if I use the credit card I pay it off that billing cycle...never gonna pay 29% interest again..

[iconicbikesrider]

I do finance everything. And I take the longest pay plan. But, I usually finish paying within 2 or max 3 years. But, if something happen, as an illness/accident or lost of a job, I will have very low monthly payments. I also negotiate for the lowest finance charge. Actually, right now, usually a credit union. Some credit unions are "giving" you money with a 2.49%.
I don't have a boat but I have 3 bikes. We have a condo Paid for) in a busy city and near by our jobs and a house. Our  mortgage is to 15 years and we have 13 more years to go but we have already paid 1/3 of the whole thing.
I can't mention how many appliances I have purchase with a 12 and some times 18 months No Finance!

Credit and finacing your stuff is great. It all depends how you handle it.

[codyshop]

I do finance everything. And I take the longest pay plan. But, I usually finish paying within 2 or max 3 years. But, if something happen, as an illness/accident or lost of a job, I will have very low monthly payments. I also negotiate for the lowest finance charge. Actually, right now, usually a credit union. Some credit unions are "giving" you money with a 2.49%.
I don't have a boat but I have 3 bikes. We have a condo Paid for) in a busy city and near by our jobs and a house. Our  mortgage is to 15 years and we have 13 more years to go but we have already paid 1/3 of the whole thing.
I can't mention how many appliances I have purchase with a 12 and some times 18 months No Finance!

Credit and finacing your stuff is great. It all depends how you handle it.

Agreed, but you are in the minority.   Most people take full advantage of the credit, not the terms.   

[Desperado]

Credit???   Whats that??   I pay with cash, dont have a checking account, dont have a credit card, no car payment, no bike payment, no WIFE and No Credit...   

I followed most of that plan but it has one drawback.  When I was young and just out of college, I was totally liquid.  I had one credit card which was for emergencies and never used and one gasoline card.  Both were paid off at the end of the month.  When it came time to purchase a house, I figured money in the bank, owed no one; I'd be an excellent credit risk.  Nope.  Because I owed no one, I had no credit rating.  No one would make a house loan for me (this was in the early 70's).  So I borrowed $700 from the bank for a car I was buying for my wife, paid it off the next month - and had an excellent credit rating (back then the report only showed that you borrowed and paid it back, not how long you took to pay off the loan).  Got the loan and the house.  Now the bank loan officer thought I was crazy when I borrowed $700 for the car and used my $1000 savings account instead of the car title for collateral until I told him what I was doing.

So sometimes its a good idea to take out a low interest loan and pay it back, just to purchase a credit rating.

[War Horse]

Nowadays it seems that having some bad credit is better than having none, go figure...?

[iconicbikesrider]

2 divorces and child support was a major burden and 2 different times I had my pristine credit rating destroyed. Some people adviced me to declared bankruptcy. But in reality, my total debt was few thousands and I did not want to have such a blemish in my credit. I made arrangements with creditors and both time I paid off everything and everyone. Eventually, I got my good credit rating back...just to lose it again with my second divorce. But, I did exactly the same. Pay off everyone and in due time, recovered my good credit record again.
I can not live w/o credit cards. How are you going to travel and rent cars etc w/o a credit card. I guess there are ways but it is so much easier if you have credit cards. Just be disciplined and do not over do it. Pay off balances before grace period or perhaps in 2 payments. If I see that I can't pay it off that fast, I will not use/expend the money.

Seriously, there is nothing better that going into a car dealer, per se, and drive off a new car (leased or purchased) just with your signature!

[BrianK]

True story after financing the bike ,stg1 mods,pro-pipe and clothing,helmet ect on the magic 7yr HD plan guy was pissed off he didn't include the first service. He was now to broke to afford it and a dealer requirement for them to honor the warranty.....Bob

Anyone who thinks they need to go to a dealer for routine service to maintain a warranty has bigger problems than just being broke.

Yep. The guy financed the bike and his and his new costume ... Apparently he's not thinking real clear.

I saw his video on YouTube - Bad Boy Brad's his name, right? 

[BrianK]

I do understand the economics of the situation Dennis, I was trying to make a point of using credit ratings to judge a persons character is not an absolute, unless they look into the particulars of that rating, and I know they don't take the time to do that...

Very frustrating times and all involved better take the time to ensure proper decisions.....

Credit???   Whats that??   I pay with cash, dont have a checking account, dont have a credit card, no car payment, no bike payment, no WIFE and No Credit...   

You pay for your internet connection in advance each month?