Ion knock detection sensitivity

[BVHOG]

Is there a difference between calibrations regarding the knock sensitivity? If so could this potentially be adjusted by a reference table?

[wurk_truk]

Pretty cool question.  The ION sensing itself is built into the coil... no change there possible.  But, it should be all software driven from that point on HOW and WHEN it polls the sensor and also what amount is the ECM supposed to disregard.  I would like it...  maybe... at 100% at all times, but I don't know if there is software in there to disregard known bad reads?  And... ARE there known bad reads of this?

[cts1950]

I have been chasing knock for several years. On both of my bikes a 103 and a 95 The ecm shows fast retard events yet I can not hear them. Even with knock retard turned off or even set to .25 degree retard just to see if the events are recorded. I have paid attention to keeping stock wires and spark plugs in them both. I spoke to Springer once on the phone and we concluded I was chasing phantoms. He said that they see a lot of Fat and Retarded bikes come into his shop for tuning. Most people enrich the fuel mix and retard the timing to try to get rid of the perceived knock.  I wish there was a way to confirm if it really worked. When I was running the DTT ecm knock was easy to hear.

[Don D]

It is an interesting process. I would think our modified motors would have a different feedback profile to the ECU therefore need to be modified through the software. That could mean changing the expected values the ECU sees and or the time the samples are taken. I would like to see the ION sense circuit divorced from the coil and then we could add performance coils to our beloved motors. When modified in high compression states and under the demand of higher RPMs I can only think that more avalable voltage to the spark plug tip would allow us to open rather than close the gaps and power would rise, not a windfall but a small amount anyway. Would make sense also that if the spark plug gap was not set to stock value the ION feedback to the ECU would be altered. It is a bit like long and short arc welding.

[lonewolf]

Here's part of a PM from FBBR on ion sensing when I questioned him on "false knock retard". Pretty smart guy.

"What most folks fail to realize is ION sensing is really "model" based!! A long time ago I had a sticky(maybe in the OLD section when my "name was fatbyrr" ) about how ION sensing works. But here goes!

It is not a sensor like the piezo sensor. (even those knock sensor have to calibrated for the engine they are on, to "see" knock.)
But the “ION” sensing element that is in the coil does not really "sense" ionization at the plug. What it senses is resistance to the spark event that is sent across the gap. And as most folks know, the requirements increase as Ionization happens at the plug. But the important thing is "at what sensor value" is IONIZATION ( or the beginning of detonation) occurring? The way we know, is when we calibrate the system, it is with real COMBUSTION equipment on the engine. Combustion equipment along with a very fast and LARGE memory computer, can predict many combustion events. Some of the things Combustion (chamber installed very sensitive pressure transducers) equipment can measure are, MASS fraction burn for every cylinder event. (That is the percent of fresh charge of fuel burned for EVERY degree of crank rotation) Location of Peak pressure
( good for finding best spark at every speed and load) as well as pressure vs. crank angle degrees! So we get a real PV (pressure volume diagram) for EACH firing event for EVERY cylinder as the engine is running. ( a lot of computer memory!). As you know at the onset of detonation, it is obvious from the rise in cylinder pressures at the END of combustion that detonation is either occurring or just the very beginning of detonation has started! It is that pressure spike we induce by adding spark while the engine is running to find the start of detonation.
That is known from the pressure rise recorded by the combustion equipment! It is then only a matter of logging the output from the coil sensor and correlating the pressure rise (from start of detonation) to the value at the sensor. That is done at in a table! As the values change with speed and load! So the table for ION detection is calibrated using that equipment and as such is really model based. When you change the engine size or combustion chamber or “camshaft timing” those values might in some areas be close enough to function, but it doesn’t surprise me that you would either get “false” retard, or failure to detect real detonation under some speed and loads!

As I said even when a real “piezio” knock sensor is used, we also calibrate the signal
( from the sensor) vs. engine noise for a given application. And sometimes there are areas where we simply “turn off” the knock retard ( at very specific speed and loads) because the sensor cannot differentiate between the signal and “normal” engine vibration noise!
An ION sensing system is much better for OVERALL ability, and can sense the ONSET of detonation much faster ( at lower levels than the old sensors), so the ION sensing is still much better than the old “real knock” sensor system! Especially for a HARLEY!"

[cts1950]

If the the knock retard is in a look up table, is this something that a ECM programming tool such as TTS be able to access if the code were written to get to it? It seems to be a common problem on modified engines. We can adjust out how much timing the retard function takes out but not the sensitivity of the system. I would think it possible to create a module to go between the coil ion sense lead and ECM to modify the signal but beyond my skill level.

[Don D]

That is a question for Steve Cole
In the past we have seen pretty strong pushback when asking about such things but really we are handing TTS golden goose eggs to keep their product frontline and competitive, IMHO. That said many of the issues we bring up end up with fixes, albeit titled things that are not necessarily exact but they are nothing more than software switches and adjustments and they correct the issues so who cares.
Here is some information that details the true potential of ION sensing. The HD only scratches the surface with a "stop gap" rather then adaptive aproach, once again IMHO.

http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost/internet_articles/Spark-Advance%20Control%20by%20Ion-Sensing%20and%20Interpretation.htm

[cts1950]

[http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost/internet_articles/Spark-Advance%20Control%20by%20Ion-Sensing%20and%20Interpretation.htm
[/quote]

That was a good read thanks for the link. There is a lot more to this than meets the eye. When we change a 88 inch motor to a 95 or a 103 that must throw the look up chart entirely off with the increase in compression ratio.  Changing the breathing with low restriction air cleaners and pipes also must throw a wrench into equation.

[wurk_truk]

The actual problem lies in that the ION sensing DOES trigger adaptive strategies.  The Delphi uses two distinct sections to deal with ION events.  This has been discussed quite a bit here on HTT, too.   There is adaptive... that once an event is seen, the timing stays pulled.  This decays after a bit unless ION senses another event, and one can SEE the timing staying altered even when no ION events are present (doing data runs).   And there is also fast retard.  Fast retard is what is seen in TTS data graphs as ION events

Some of us feel, from playing around, of which DON says to NEVER do.........  if we zero out the adaptive tables, then all we are left with is Fast Retard.  Tone down the Fast retard table and the timing events will still have a little help, but won't pull massive amounts of timing anymore and also WILL NOT REMEMBER doing so.  I wouldn't recommend killing all the pull out of fast retard.  Bad gas would mean one needs a bit of protection.  But THAT can be set like 2-4 degrees instead of the 8* now.  But, ultimately that is a work around and not a fix.

Something to alter sensitivity would be nice.  But I cannot help but feel that the base cals take this into consideration somewhat.  A ST1  96" cal will be more sensitive than a St1 110 cal would be, will be more sensitive than a 113 built hipo cal.  One CAN see SOMETHING of that nature by simply taking a cal that triggers ION pulling timing a bunch with another cal... and then minimum ION events are seen.  Yes... that can be from fueling strategies are different, but still....

[HogMike]

Interesting question. Far too much for me to worry about, though.
It was suggested to me to leave the adaptive knock retard to 0 on the last 3 tunes I have had my tuner do for me. He likes to let the fast retard do the trick. We set max retard to 5.
I am playing around with my timing just to see how far I can go without knock issues creeping in.
On this trip, I am using adaptive knock retard, but, scaled back on how much. I find anything from 86 to 92 octane, just can't always get what you want!
I'm just about in my "happy place" as far as MY combination.
I'm STILL not sure how the adaptive will "reset" after a key off. From what I've read, your "learned" values will reset to base on a key off/on. This is to put timing back in on, say, a "good" load of gas in your next tankfull.
JMO, so, NO bashing!

[Don D]

I love to play around but try to stay away from sink holes. 

I have not become so forgetful to not remember how nice a carbed early Twin cam ran. They did and still do. They do not have adaptive anything and the only real electronic control is the MAP controlled spark. When set right (mechanical parameters) with proper fuel and spark timing they run every day and do not ping at all, uneven AFR and all. We technologists need to keep a look back sometimes and not loose track of the goal post ahead. Unless this bike of ours is just a masochistic play toy. Footnote: I AM NOT ANTI EFI

The Delphi ION sensing in it's current state and with the tuning tools offered is not an effective feature, simple as that. Why psychoanalyze it so deeply. Until we have the tools to make it work better then it remains an excellent feature for a stock or stage 1 motorcycle and with the limited controls all we can do is dumb it down not effectively use it nor can we trust the feedback in the logs. Too many false hits. Then add another layer the "PE" and it's timing scheme.
This is just a rerun of the "EGR" stuff. Steve, to his credit, fixed that

[wurk_truk]

Way upper left.  You don't see what we see in the flatlands of the middle.  Corn as far as the eyes can see.  Farmers no longer raise feed... they raise gasohol.  Thats the truth, actually... 40% corn is for fuel arounds these parts.

Except for Shell gas... corn is here to stay.  And ION could/can be a help with that.  For right now, without any tools to speak of... turn off adaptive and pick a tune that senses falsies the best.  No matters WHOSE base maps, they were all ultimately tuned in by the MOCO.  There ARE some base cals better than others on this issue.

Gasoline quality sucks here.  Tunes being done at 89 here to cover it up a bit.  Mega compression on the streets is dead.  1970's all over again.  Mid 180s ccp is tops.  and then a GOOD tune is needed.  Stoich in the Midwest for pump fuel is 14.2AFR. 

[Don D]

Other than a personal attack or two and a rank or two on the EMS nothing you said addresses the accuracy of the Delphi to proportion timing correctly.

[wurk_truk]

Touche on MY post then, huh Don... offer 'solutions' that have already been dealt with and call out personal attacks on me...  I will NOT suffer that... even from the GOD of all things Harley.  I KNOW I am a dumbass Don, but NOT on everything.

As far as the ION thing...  if too many hits are being seen, the thing those of us HERE see as a work around is to kill the adaptive knock control (nobody, in the 'know' has stated if the adaptive clears at each on-off of the key) and also try different base cals.  Some show WAY less activity than others do.  A sensitivity thing would be nice, but HIGHLY doubt it is in the works anytime soon.  Drinking Kool Aid HAS its advantages.  The Delphi does NOT proportion timing correctly, once totally stock config is left in the dust..  There IS no fix except for work arounds at present.

Swapping around base cals seems to work.  Especially when trying out cals that are for higher comp/larger CI engines.  Dial the CI in the constants to match build.  False 'ping' sure makes bike run crappy.

Actually in 100% agreement on two things... old bikes dealt with it ok (universally better gas then), and 2.. most will NOT invest the time to v-tune multiple base cals.  Tweakers will, tho

And me?  at the suggestion to kill it out completely?  Like an older bike?  Ummmmm... not me, anyways.  Fuel in Ohio and WVa lends me to LIKE a degree or two being pulled at times.  8*, no way.  I also do NOT want the bike to 'adapt' to ping or false ping... then the timing is pulled for a very long time.  I will tune at 89 AND  I will let fast retard do the heavy lifting after that.  But, THAT is the DUMB HILLBILLY in me, though.

[HogMike]

Touche on MY post then, huh Don... offer 'solutions' that have already been dealt with and call out personal attacks on me...  I will NOT suffer that... even from the GOD of all things Harley.  I KNOW I am a dumbass Don, but NOT on everything.

As far as the ION thing...  if too many hits are being seen, the thing those of us HERE see as a work around is to kill the adaptive knock control (nobody, in the 'know' has stated if the adaptive clears at each on-off of the key)

"The Delphi ECM utilizes Adaptive Spark Control based on information received from the knock detection system. This system learns a retard value to apply when knock is detected, and this value is retained between key-on cycles. However, at each key-on the remembered values will be reduced towards zero. This gradually clears out the learned knock adapt value and
serves to adapt to a change in conditions, such as a tank of low octane fuel being replaced with better fuel.
The Adaptive Knock Retard table determines the maximum amount of learned spark retard that can be applied, based on RPM and MAP. When the spark tables are being developed, this table should be set to zero degrees to prevent influencing the values. After tuning is complete, restore the table to the factory values or set the table to the values appropriate for your engine combination."
Figure 3-
?

and also try different base cals.  Some show WAY less activity than others do.  A sensitivity thing would be nice, but HIGHLY doubt it is in the works anytime soon.  Drinking Kool Aid HAS its advantages.  The Delphi does NOT proportion timing correctly, once totally stock config is left in the dust..  There IS no fix except for work arounds at present.

Swapping around base cals seems to work.  Especially when trying out cals that are for higher comp/larger CI engines.  Dial the CI in the constants to match build.  False 'ping' sure makes bike run crappy.

Actually in 100% agreement on two things... old bikes dealt with it ok (universally better gas then), and 2.. most will NOT invest the time to v-tune multiple base cals.  Tweakers will, tho

And me?  at the suggestion to kill it out completely?  Like an older bike?  Ummmmm... not me, anyways.  Fuel in Ohio and WVa lends me to LIKE a degree or two being pulled at times.  8*, no way.  I also do NOT want the bike to 'adapt' to ping or false ping... then the timing is pulled for a very long time.  I will tune at 89 AND  I will let fast retard do the heavy lifting after that.  But, THAT is the DUMB HILLBILLY in me, though.

THATS the clarification I'm looking for!
DOES is decay to zero? How soon? Key off?

[wurk_truk]

Mike, a couple of threads ago, we asked the same thing and didn't get a really satisfactory answer, for the adaptive decay rate.  This is the reason, simply for me only, to give a try to using only fast retard.  I do NOT know if, as a strategy, this will work, but I WILL give it a go.  I CAN see both sides of using adaptive on this.  If adaptive is being used, maybe only... say 3* of timing is pulled, but for quite a distance, while using fast retard only... THAT could pull MORE timing, but in bursts.  I surely know what that 'tink' sounds like, so MY thought is fast retard and only have available a few degrees of timing being pulled.  If I, do in fact hear a tink or two, I will data that area and go looking.

I full heartedly believe whats posted here about false events.

[HogMike]

I would think, reading the explanation of this, that you would see back to zero as quickly as you could fill your tank.
It could be me,, but on this trip it "seems" that my bike will run nicer, after a change from crap gas to good stuff, all other conditions remaining the same. I HAVE noticed more instances of ping when this feature is disabled (set to zero).
Just my limited experience in 2 different touring bikes.

[wurk_truk]

I HAVE noticed more instances of ping when this feature is disabled (set to zero).
Just my limited experience in 2 different touring bikes.

Good info  Did you zero out all the settings in Adaptive Knock control, or go to constants and turn off knock?  What I am thinking is leave knock turned on in constants, but zero out all the values in adaptive knock control.  As you know, I asked around before.  The Wizard, a GOOD member in standing here, not like me at all., told me this:

You may be REAL old but you have a good memory.

Back, about a century ago, Steve George (Fullsac.com) and I were having a discussion as to why he left his Adaptive Knock values at ZERO.... for those of you reading this that don't understand what this table does it's pretty simple...

The Adaptive Knock Retard Table lets you preset what the ECM will REMEMBER and STORE when the ECM sees an ION sensitive motor knock. Your value in the table is the number it will remember to reduce your timing so this motor knock will not happen again during THIS RIDE.

The Adaptive Knock Retard is not a permanent record such as the Adaptive Learning process for the VE tables as when you do a simple muffler modification and the ECM will make an adjustment for this modification over time.

The Adaptive Knock Retard will decrease or try to lose its values recorded with each key on/off cycle. Why? Let's say you get the mysterious bad tank of gas. Your AKR will adjust your timing to remove the knock but the next time you fill up there will be no knock with good gas, so this is why the AKR table will decrease its learned values over time.

Getting back to you Richard (Me... Mr Dick Head... Richard HAHA!!).... Steve said it was clear on his dyno runs working with his new X pipe, cams, head work and so on that the AKR would devalue his peak numbers or dip his curve. He could see it stand out like a sore thumb. Since he sells the TTS he will also give you a starter calibration if you also purchase his Stage 1 or Stage II kits. In this starter calibration he always leaves the AKR cells set to ZERO. Steve George knows what he is talking about but as it is with Dyno Operators or Home Brew Guys we all have different opinions and ways to verify.

Further... This is not how I work my calibrations. This is not how TTS recommends the use of the AKR, per Steve Cole. After VTuning it is recommended to restore the original values of the AKR tables as a safety measure. Steve George's argument is the Constants table knock retard is all you need.

Speaking of the "Knock Retard" located in the Tuning Constants Table. I never turn this off but I have been known to reduce the MAX KNOCK RETARD value to 5.

Hope this is clear.

What Wiz is talking about is in the constants, there are three constants to the left.  Size, injector and max retard... that max retard is what he adjusts to 5.  Me??  I am going to try 3.  To kill AKR, one needs to go to THAT table and zero it out.  See?  NOT the one in the constants table.  I bring this up, Mike, because I would think fast retard (the one in constants table) would have killed any actual audible ping even if the AKR was zeroed out.

Mike, in either event, what fuel did you v-tune at?  Maybe you may want to consider tuning using 89 octane instead of 93.  THEN when you are working the data runs to look at timing, if you pull timing where you noticed a ping. this would all wurk better for you, in regards to AKR.

[Steve Cole]

Adaptive Knock Retard is what is Learned by the ECM by watching where it has to pull timing. Sorry, but its stored values so when you shut the key off it is still there on the next startup. As time goes by if it does not knock it will take the learn values back to zero but this does not happen each time you shut the bike off. It does get set back to zero when the ECM gets programmed. The reason I have you limit it to zero when tuning is to keep it from changing your results. With it limited to zero the system does not learn any spark adjustments and when your trying to find the proper settings it's nice to know the ECM isn't changing things around on you.

My feeling is that it should be returned to our base settings to allow for that bad tank of fuel. If you get a bad tank are you going to run it out or dump it? Most are going to keep on riding and that's why I feel it should be there. Now to the Max retard table or Constant as it is done both with a table or a constant depending on which base software is used. IF you limit it there you limit the entire system. There is also another constant that allow you to switch the whole system off. All I can say is play at your own risk.

[Mr. Wizard]

  The Wizard, a GOOD member in standing here, not like me at all., told me this:

You see... right there was your mistake. Everything was going soooo well too.

[Mr. Wizard]

Adaptive Knock Retard is what is Learned by the ECM by watching where it has to pull timing. Sorry, but its stored values so when you shut the key off it is still there on the next startup. As time goes by if it does not knock it will take the learn values back to zero but this does not happen each time you shut the bike off. It does get set back to zero when the ECM gets programmed. The reason I have you limit it to zero when tuning is to keep it from changing your results. With it limited to zero the system does not learn any spark adjustments and when your trying to find the proper settings it's nice to know the ECM isn't changing things around on you.

My feeling is that it should be returned to our base settings to allow for that bad tank of fuel. If you get a bad tank are you going to run it out or dump it? Most are going to keep on riding and that's why I feel it should be there. Now to the Max retard table or Constant as it is done both with a table or a constant depending on which base software is used. IF you limit it there you limit the entire system. There is also another constant that allow you to switch the whole system off. All I can say is play at your own risk.

Hummmmmm.... must have been drinking when you told me this? Steve... you need to change to 2%, that whole milk will kill ya.

Pretty sure it was you that told me the above key on, key off routine dropping the AKR learned values by small increments over time.

Maybe I should switch to skim milk. Getting too old to handle the root beer now.

Then fill in this gap for me... over what period of time will the AKR devalue if the knock sensed is now gone or not seen anymore? Is this based in miles or clock?

[strokerjlk]

Hogmike. It could be as simple as a change in temp spark would fix your slight ping problem. Anyway you can keep it from starting to pull timing,the. Better off you are.
FWIW relying on ION sensing to control detonation is asking for trouble. Not that you are mike,but it is a practice some use.
truk.
after doing some 89 tuning I am still not sold,that it is a cure all. Case by case only.

I remember once in texas,I got some 93 that was just simly bad gas.
there wasent a chance of ION sensing,spark retard curing the detonation. Only thing to do was ride in a manner that could safely burn a couple gallon out,and get something better in.

[Steve Cole]

Pretty sure it was you that told me the above key on, key off routine dropping the AKR learned values by small increments over time.

It does reduce but does not reset it to zero, which is how I understand what has been posted. There is a big difference between dropping a small amount and resetting to zero in my book. The time and adjustment amount of adding spark back will vary based on what it has learned and for how long so there is no straight answer that fits.

[Mr. Wizard]

The Adaptive Knock Retard will decrease or try to lose its values recorded with each key on/off cycle.

I believe we are saying the same thing here... will decrease and when you and I discussed this you used Key on, Key off as an example over time. I don't think my stolen quote by WT said it would clear to zero.   

[wurk_truk]

Timing be damned.... Stolen?   

[Mr. Wizard]

Thought you would like that...   

[FBRR]

I don't log on much anymore. But the adaptive decay is based on speed and load. So it will decay out faster or slower depending on engine operating speed and load!

One thing to remember when removing ALL adaptive knock retard is the system was calibrated "assuming" ALL spark retard would be available. And what I mean by that is the "Adaptive" portion PLUS the "fast retard", have calibrated limits of retard. When you zero out the adaptive, yes it will not be "learned", but you have also lost some of the RESOLUTION in the amount of retard available. And one should also know that the "onset" of detonation takes MORE retard than the actual "spark amount that caused the event! So a couple of extra degrees of spark may "trigger" detonation, but it may take a quick retard of 5 or 6 degree to stop the event! Then the "adaptive learn" has triggered and slowly decays back to "FULL Spark" when no further "events" are registed. So fast attack and recovery rates are designed to work in conjunction with the "fast retard."

The big reason a production cal doesn't just "run" on fast retard is the adding and subtracting spark during knock can be felt. The adaptive pervents the "fast retard" from being active and impacting the surging that can be felt in gear.

And while the adaptive "VALUE" is in memory, there is a calibration that can be "Set" that will change the decay rate IF the FUEL GAGE has changed. (i.e. a fill up has taken place. THAT IS AVAILABLE IN THE SOFTWARE, BUT I don't KNOW IF HARLEY USED that function!!) If the fuel gage is not changed the "normal" decay rate remains after a key cycle! Just turning the key on and off doesn't trigger a change. The software uses both "key cycles" an ENGINE RUN flags for various functions. So some functions can be "reset" with just a key cycle, off/on/off. But many resets only "flag" After and "ENGINE RUN" flag has been set. The Knock system uses "ENGINE RUN" not key cycle.
Hope that helps understand the system a little!

[wurk_truk]

I enjoy seeing you post!!!!!

[HogMike]

FBRR:
Thanks for helping me understand just HOW and WHEN my spark settings will default to "setpoint" after an event ( or series of events) that pulls timing.

[whittlebeast]

So how little timing will you guys go to at WOT before you guys start thinking the problem is somewhere else.  Compression, air flow/cooling issues, squish issues, bad head machining...

AW

[HogMike]

At WOT lots of things change.
I'm not really hearing any ping or other issues there, and on the dyno the bike is tuned properly at that load.
I ride 90% of the time at 2200-3000 RPM at medium MAP and THAT'S  where I am most concentrated in my tuning.
My riding style, and the load I have will NOT be optimum for others, but, it is where I am.
So far, I would guess that I'm probably 99% satisfied with my tune.
I DO need to change my warmup table just a little though!
JMO

[HogMike]

So how little timing will you guys go to at WOT before you guys start thinking the problem is somewhere else.  Compression, air flow/cooling issues, squish issues, bad head machining...

AW

In my engine (basically stock with mild cams) in the mid rpm area of 2200-3000 I use about 9 to 18 spark advance at 100 MAP. This is by dyno with knock control monitored.
Other issues with bad heads, bad gas, cooling, etc, etc was NOT used in tuning.

[cts1950]

When you change the engine size or combustion chamber or “camshaft timing” those values might in some areas be close enough to function, but it doesn’t surprise me that you would either get “false” retard, or failure to detect real detonation under some speed and loads!

This is the closest answer to my earlier question concerning Ion sense and modified motors. I have been contemplating the sensitivity issue and will throw this out for discussion. By increasing spark plug gap that would effectively increase the resistance for the ion sense in the combustion chamber and help reduce false fast retard events on modified motors? Has any one experimented with that and what was the results.

[hrdtail78]

I usually close the gap on built engines.

I have notice best power in the mid range isn't always driven by where it starts to ping.  I Have found were a bike will run without ping and went back and removed 5 more for best power.  I do believe for the most part these are ignition walled, but not at every MAP and RPM.

[whittlebeast]

FBRR

With production motors, what is the least timing you have ever seen as a normal answer at WOT?  Sure I understand that water cooled is a little different and 4 valve motors are different, but if you got down to 10 degrees base timing and you are still getting detonation on the fuel you were designing to....  What did you do as a factory calibrator?  Was it time to send things back to engineering? 

AW

[HogMike]

FBRR

With production motors, what is the least timing you have ever seen as a normal answer at WOT?  Sure I understand that water cooled is a little different and 4 valve motors are different, but if you got down to 10 degrees base timing and you are still getting detonation on the fuel you were designing to....  What did you do as a factory calibrator?  Was it time to send things back to engineering? 

AW

Not sure I really understand the question.
Are you looking for (x) timing at some given rpm/load at wot?
If you look at some calibrations, you will see anywhere from 0 advance to 26 (or more) depending on RPM and load.

[Sporty 48]

Hardtail78,
What do you mean by "these are ignition walled?"
Are there limits imposed by timing?
Or by the EFI setup?

I usually close the gap on built engines.

I have notice best power in the mid range isn't always driven by where it starts to ping.  I Have found were a bike will run without ping and went back and removed 5 more for best power.  I do believe for the most part these are ignition walled, but not at every MAP and RPM.

[strokerjlk]

By increasing spark plug gap that would effectively increase the resistance for the ion sense in the combustion chamber and help reduce false fast retard events on modified motors? Has any one experimented with that and what was the results.

you are correct.
I have seen,increasing the gap to 40-42 on motors that had false retard so bad that I would normally turn the knock retard off , calm retard down enough to go ahead and enable spark retard.

[Rider57]

When you change the engine size or combustion chamber or “camshaft timing” those values might in some areas be close enough to function, but it doesn’t surprise me that you would either get “false” retard, or failure to detect real detonation under some speed and loads!

This is the closest answer to my earlier question concerning Ion sense and modified motors. I have been contemplating the sensitivity issue and will throw this out for discussion. By increasing spark plug gap that would effectively increase the resistance for the ion sense in the combustion chamber and help reduce false fast retard events on modified motors? Has any one experimented with that and what was the results.

Does it work? Yes, but not all the time. CR was the major stumbling block. At about 10.0:1 the "trick" didn't work as well.
Above 10.5:1 it didn't work at all.
I have used this on EVOs and Twinkies many times with good results.
Experimentation is about the only way to find out on any particular build.

[cts1950]

Rider 57 and strokerjlk
Thanks for the reply I have been chasing this problem for several years and now I have a direction to experiment with. I am sure that the data logs will show the changes. I typically ride the same route for each data log so I can go through them and campare them side by side for acceleration and loads on hills and the flats.

[hrdtail78]

Hardtail78,
What do you mean by "these are ignition walled?"
Are there limits imposed by timing?
Or by the EFI setup?

I usually close the gap on built engines.

I have notice best power in the mid range isn't always driven by where it starts to ping.  I Have found were a bike will run without ping and went back and removed 5 more for best power.  I do believe for the most part these are ignition walled, but not at every MAP and RPM.

Ignition limited.

[HD_04Ultra]

Is "Adaptive Knock Retard" a new feature in the TTS software?  I have reviewed all the SERT materials and can find nothing on the subject.  Admitedly, my SERT is "old" software.  Infact, so old it does not pass the SERT Upgrade Qualifier.  It is P/N 32107-01E dated 04/25/06.

So if I am right about the lack of AKR in my SERT software, how does that change tuning the timing tables.  As noted in a different post. I tried running 89 octane fuel and went from 0 knock retard to well over 8 degrees of knock retard.  I filtered the CSV file of the data log for greater than or equal to 4 degrees of knock retard for each cylinder and noted the kPa and RPM range each cylinder covered.

Front Cyl Knock Retard was 4 degrees or more from 77.5-103.3 kPa and from 2523-4754 RPM.  I took 2,50 degrees of advance out of the front cylinder from 70-100 kPa and from 2500-5000 RPM.

Rear Cyl Knock Retard was 4 degrees or more from 77.5-94.9 kPa and from 2523-2936 RPM.  I took 2.50 degrees of advance out of the rear cylinder from 70-100 kPa and from 2500-3000 RPM.

I believe these would be the recommended edits based on the SERT user's manual.  Then reprogram the ECM and head out for another data run to collect more data so the affects of the change can be analyzed.

As I understand it, even if AKR was part of the SERT software (), reprogramming the ECM resets the values to zero anyway; so the AKR code really would not affect tuning in any way even if it were there.  After all, the ECM must be repogrammed every time the .MT6 file is modified.

Interesting thread, I am enjoying the reading and think I am learning a lot, even if my software is "old" and perhaps some of the things being discussed do not apply to that particular version of the SERT/TTS software.

HD_04ultra

[ultraswede]

Just as a FYI, all the functionality discussed here has nothing to do with which tuning software is used.
The functions exist in the stock ECU, the difference is if you can tune them or not.
That is the difference in the various tuners out there.

[whittlebeast]

Has anyone verified any of this on a timing light with a crank that has been properly indexed/degreed?

[FLTRI]

Has anyone verified any of this on a timing light with a crank that has been properly indexed/degreed?

Got any idea how to accomplish that?
HD ceased offering a timing hole over 10 years ago with the introduction of the TC.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

A duel trace recording scope with one lead on the CPS and the other on the coil lead would do it.

AW

[hrdtail78]

Better be pretty quike with that dial back knob.

[mike 120]

When you change the engine size or combustion chamber or “camshaft timing” those values might in some areas be close enough to function, but it doesn’t surprise me that you would either get “false” retard, or failure to detect real detonation under some speed and loads!

This is the closest answer to my earlier question concerning Ion sense and modified motors. I have been contemplating the sensitivity issue and will throw this out for discussion. By increasing spark plug gap that would effectively increase the resistance for the ion sense in the combustion chamber and help reduce false fast retard events on modified motors? Has any one experimented with that and what was the results.

Does it work? Yes, but not all the time. CR was the major stumbling block. At about 10.0:1 the "trick" didn't work as well.
Above 10.5:1 it didn't work at all.
I have used this on EVOs and Twinkies many times with good results.
Experimentation is about the only way to find out on any particular build.

Is it related to compression ratios or cylinder pressure? Ccp can vary a fair amount depending on cam at same compression, yes?

[FBRR]

Whittlebeast,
On normal aspirated engines the "min. Spark" at high speed and loads that I have done were about 5 degrees. On a supercharged engine that number was down around 2 degrees, vs. high boost.

On production engines the knock system allows a little "wiggle" room vs. Octane and deposits. Before the knock systems were as robust as they are now WOT spark tables might be a couple of degree less on noramly aspirated engines.

Also when I mention those "low limits" that is in the "LOW Octane Spark advance".(High Octane spark limits would be 4 to 5 degree higher)
The adaptive spark runs between two different spark tables by a multilpier. (i.e. is the multiplier applied by the adaptive knock is .5 the value for delivered spark would be hafl way between the "High oct. table and the "low "ocatane table. Ther eis a complete spark MAP for both high and low octane. Then there are modifier tables based on Power enrichment vs. time in P.E, as well as spark reduction BEFORE fuel cut off! The spark reduction before the "hard limit" fuel cut off for Max. RPM is a cushion as you approach "over speed fuel cut off."

I'm not sure that helps with a Harley engine. Those values are dependant on "deposit over miles" and octane used for each spark map.

[BVHOG]

One other interesting thing I have noticed is that you can have whole numbers in your timing tables yet have .25 increments during data logs.

[turboprop]

Has anyone verified any of this on a timing light with a crank that has been properly indexed/degreed?

Got any idea how to accomplish that?
HD ceased offering a timing hole over 10 years ago with the introduction of the TC.
Bob

Pull the primary cover, make TDC marks on the rotor and inner case.

[Rider57]

When you change the engine size or combustion chamber or “camshaft timing” those values might in some areas be close enough to function, but it doesn’t surprise me that you would either get “false” retard, or failure to detect real detonation under some speed and loads!

This is the closest answer to my earlier question concerning Ion sense and modified motors. I have been contemplating the sensitivity issue and will throw this out for discussion. By increasing spark plug gap that would effectively increase the resistance for the ion sense in the combustion chamber and help reduce false fast retard events on modified motors? Has any one experimented with that and what was the results.

Does it work? Yes, but not all the time. CR was the major stumbling block. At about 10.0:1 the "trick" didn't work as well.
Above 10.5:1 it didn't work at all.
I have used this on EVOs and Twinkies many times with good results.
Experimentation is about the only way to find out on any particular build.

Is it related to compression ratios or cylinder pressure? Ccp can vary a fair amount depending on cam at same compression, yes?

I never looked into that far. Could one or the other or both.
I just wanted to eliminate det / ping.

[mike 120]

When I was street tuning ( dangerous) with TSII, I would run a data log using SERT and could never eliminate ion sensor pulling out timing, tried everything but could not eliminate it, I came to the conclusion my ccp was too high (210) and turned it off, never heard it, and plugs never had any indication of detonation. They are probably calibrated for near stock ccp, and when that is exceeded by a certain percentage your on your own IMO.
Mike

[FBRR]

BVhog,
The reason you get decimal values in spark when the tables values are whole numbers, the software interpolates between table break points. Some tables do not interpolate and some do! Spark and fuel tables (main MAP tables) do interpolate!

[BVHOG]

In reading Adam Wade's book on fuel injection he mentions that the spark plugs can degrade over time and affect the operation of the ion sensing.

[FLTRI]

...spark plugs can degrade over time and affect the operation of the ion sensing.

That's right! So you can just imagine when the wrong spark plug (resistance) is used.

This is why we insist on either the stock TC plug or the V-Rod plug (1 heat range cooler)...any other plug and all bets are off...unless the knock sensing is disabled...then it's all about not maximizing timing/power 'cause you can't rely on good gas.

Bob

[autoworker]

My initial thinking is that ION sensing sensitivity would be same across all maps.

However,after some time it dawned on me....the factory 110's run over 210 psi ccp and I'm assuming ION ensing isn't pulling timing.So maybe it is map specific to a certain degree.

I have witnessed it  ION sensing kick in on a couple 103 builds while they were being tuned and the threshold for it to activate was near 200 psi. ccp.

I guess a tuner could load a 110 map in a bike that has the ION sensing kicking in on a different,say 103 in. map and see what happens.

do I know?

[cts1950]

I guess that Steve is the only one that knows that answer. Dose the tts maps change the Ion sense look up table that is programed in to the ecm? Or is it in a table tts can not access, and only programmable by the original code loaded in by HD either by vin at the dealer or at the factory.

[WVULTRA]

...spark plugs can degrade over time and affect the operation of the ion sensing.

That's right! So you can just imagine when the wrong spark plug (resistance) is used.

This is why we insist on either the stock TC plug or the V-Rod plug (1 heat range cooler)...any other plug and all bets are off...unless the knock sensing is disabled...then it's all about not maximizing timing/power 'cause you can't rely on good gas.

Bob

Bob:

Would you mind sharing what conditions/builds you would recommend the V-Rod plug for?  Or would this be determined while the bike was on your Dyno?

Thanks,

[Don D]

factory 110's run over 210 psi ccp and I'm assuming ION ensing isn't pulling timing

OK but they have a base timing map that is very slow total and rate, when modified they are chronic offenders in all states of tune.
Once again I would ask Steve Cole to allow some more control of this function similar to what was done with the "EGR" and intake timing functions.

[FLTRI]

factory 110's run over 210 psi ccp and I'm assuming ION sensing isn't pulling timing

OK but they have a base timing map that is very slow total and rate, when modified they are chronic offenders in all states of tune...

Don,
Are you saying the timing mapping TTS has developed for the 110's works and doesn't induce detonation but when modified, creates detonation issues?

IME the base timing mapping from TTS and SESTP do not cause detonation and the tuner must be careful how, where, and why changes are made to the developed baseline timing mapping.

Head grooves will reduce CCR/detonation a bit by the additional CC's

Bob

[Don D]

Hell NO
The stock 110 timing maps are retarded. The man was talking the stock 110 at 210 psi so I commented on the stock map

When the motors are modified the combustion pressures and turbulence happen and why wouldn't that be the case?, the compression and other conditions are not the same as a stock motor the ion sensing is meant to work with. In the case of a 110 the  intake air stream is very close to the plug tip. Different values would be expected from a non-stock motor. To my knowledge nothing is changed in either the TTS or the SEST with regards to ion sense values behind the scenes and there are no software controls as you know.

110 heads get no grooves here, and on a bathtub mine are .4cc per head

[cts1950]

It seems that more than just a few have problems with ions sense issues. I owner a 103' motor that I have not been able to tune out the fast retard events. I have owned the TTS system from early 2008 bought from DOC and have spent a lot of time and money upgrading my 1999 ultra to use the TTS system a new 2007 ecm and wire harness and all the other components. I even own two obsolete racetuners that can't be upgraded and the old ecms that go with them sitting on the shelf of shame along with my DTT ecm and wegoII and PCIII and Terry's components self tuner. I am not interested in reverse engineering your system. I have given up trying to chase them because I am unable to hear any ping or knock, they seem to be false events and I  have resorted to turning the knock retard to .25 degrees of retard just so it will flag the event. I have even reduced my timing to lower than 12* and it still triggers the fast retard, and with that I give up plenty of power and economy and turned my pipes blue with no improvement with the fast retard. So a straight question to you Steve. Will using a 110 " map trimmed down to 103" in the tuning constants reduce the sensitivity of the ion sense? Or is that too much to ask.

[Coyote]

I'm having the same issues with my 103 tune. Mostly on the front cyl. Mayor has spent a lot of time helping me but the problem persists on my DM recordings. This was a 70 mile run today. Kinda ugly, huh? Green is the rear and the other the front pulled timing. I have a ST to try but I really wanted to get the best results I could with the TTS before I switched. BTW, I'm never once heard any pinging today yet I'm sure I lost performance with it pulling 8 degs at times.



[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[autoworker]

I'm having the same issues with my 103 tune. Mostly on the front cyl. Mayor has spent a lot of time helping me but the problem persists on my DM recordings. This was a 70 mile run today. Kinda ugly, huh? Green is the rear and the other the front pulled timing. I have a ST to try but I really wanted to get the best results I could with the TTS before I switched. BTW, I'm never once heard any pinging today yet I'm sure I lost performance with it pulling 8 degs at times.

Disable it and enjoy the power that isn't being taken away.You are smart enough to detect ping.

[Coyote]

I'm having the same issues with my 103 tune. Mostly on the front cyl. Mayor has spent a lot of time helping me but the problem persists on my DM recordings. This was a 70 mile run today. Kinda ugly, huh? Green is the rear and the other the front pulled timing. I have a ST to try but I really wanted to get the best results I could with the TTS before I switched. BTW, I'm never once heard any pinging today yet I'm sure I lost performance with it pulling 8 degs at times.

Disable it and enjoy the power that isn't being taken away.You are smart enough to detect ping.

I don't disagree but something isn't going as planned. 

[mayor]

I really don't think any of us here have the ability or the desire to put out a tuner to go into competition with yours, most just wan't to know the why's of what is happening with the existing setup.  A simple answer like, "yes, some cals are more sensitive than others" or " it makes no difference between cals" I really don't give a chit about all the geek chit you do inbetween.

[autoworker]

[/quote]

I don't disagree but something isn't going as planned. 
[/quote]

Have you done compresssion test?If not,I would just to eliminate high compression as a factor contributing to ion sensing pulling timing.

[Sporty 48]

Steve,
1. TTS is still the best tuner.
2. Disappointed to read this. You are most definitely in the business to tune bikes.
3. Or your product will soon be replaced.

............................
I am also not in the business of tuning bikes, I get what we need to develop the tuning software each time there are changes made. Those bikes are tuned for free as the customer allowed us to use there bike during development. Those base calibrations are released with the product. Other calibrations come along as we help our customers get something running correctly. The job of getting tuned bikes is left up to you tuners that are charging people. The fact that we have a large base of calibration done around SE parts should be of no surprise to anyone after all thats who we worked with for years and who also out sells all the others combined.

[Coyote]

Coyote found a mistake I have made in a calibration so it has been removed until I can figure out what happened. So for all you out there please delete the ETA044-03 calibration. We will release a new one once the problem has been corrected.

Actual Mayor found the discrepancy while helping me.

[hrdtail78]

...spark plugs can degrade over time and affect the operation of the ion sensing.

That's right! So you can just imagine when the wrong spark plug (resistance) is used.

This is why we insist on either the stock TC plug or the V-Rod plug (1 heat range cooler)...any other plug and all bets are off...unless the knock sensing is disabled...then it's all about not maximizing timing/power 'cause you can't rely on good gas.

Bob

Bob,

I have had success with AL 4164 and to go a step cooler I use the 4162.  On higher compression I like to close the gap a bit.  When you talk stock?  Do you mean champion or stock replacement?

Thanks,
Jason


Don't be so naive to think people are not on this site trying to copy Steve's products.  I now there are members that have tried to hack TTS.  If they post are not.  Where is Charles Chastin, or Dan from DJ.  Jamie comes here once in awhile.  Haven't seen him post to much about the behind the scene stuff. Cris from DTT? What about Brian?  Lot more in between but let's not leave out MoCo.  Whats the contact number for them.

We could even look at head porters or cam manufactures.  I have read, looked at many cam cards.  A lot of info missing there.  You can send them out to people that bought extra equipment.  Larry has a nice machine for that.

Ever wonder through pits?  Now some of these guys love to talk about what they are doing, but ask a specific.  "Which cutter do you use on you seat?"  Blank stare...  "What cam you running?"....  The answer I have always liked is "I can't remember which one is in there now.  I have tried so many."  But all of these guys will share info with you freely.  Doesn't mean they will share all their info freely.

[BVHOG]

To make it much simpler I should have started the thread asking specifically what combustion conditions can cause false ignition retard in the Delphi software, after all, it is not TTS, Direct link, or Powervisions system to begin with.
Here is a paragraph from the Wade book speaking about ion sensing and misfires.

Since ion sensing can easily detect misfire, it can be used to send a signal to the main ECU informing it that the mixture has been leaned too far and to compensate; thus it can allow an ECU to run right at the edge of lean misfire without a loss of economy, or damage to the catalytic converter.
By itself it would be a relatively low computing power addition, and it is used on a number of production cars today. (Mainly to allow low emissions to the vehicle or drivability problems.)
It is one of the primary advantages of ion sensing, from the standpoint of technology to meet emissions regulations (the OBD II specifies a method for recording and, ideally, preventing misfires prior to ion sensing , a fairly crude system of reading changes in crank angle speed and analyzing it with a high speed dedicated chip has been used; it results in a lot of false misfire detections, which can then result in a lot of "check engine" lights with no actual fault in the injection or ignition system) Harley Davidson has already incorporated this development on its Delphi ECU-equipped models.

So, what does this all mean? Does the crank postion sensor and it's ability to read accurately as well as possibly injector timing have affects on ion sensing?
I read the "preventing misfires before the ion sensing " to mean there may be other factors causing timing to be reduced without input from the ion sensing at all.
My personal feelings is that the mixture itself,( whether overall rich or lean) will have a huge affect on the ion sensing making it much more important to have a good homogeneous mixture (whether overall rich or lean)and a correct combustion chamber shape and squish area to prevent lean and rich spots within different areas of the combustion chamber itself.   I also feel there is a very good reason that we do have the ability to simply turn off the ion sensing function. Imagine what happens to your air speed and subsequently the overall mixture through the short little intake tract when you twist that 58mm wide open beyond what the motor wants.
Most of us can only sample the left over 02 within the exhaust gas and when a lean or rich misfire happens there can be both leftover fuel and 02.  The 02 will read only what it can(oxygen) and the resulting data will only show lean when in fact it could have been a rich misfire.
And..................that's where the 4gas has a major advantage.

[cts1950]

The Ion sense circuit is the same in all calibrations but the calibration of it is not. How why and when it's allowed to work along with what it's looking for changes based on the build of the bike.

So let me be more specific in my question. This thread is about the sensitivity of the ion detection system. The question has been repeatedly asked can any thing be done about reducing it's sensitivity on engine builds with high ccp? You have not specifically answered this question. We understand the ECU is the same part number and use the same circuitry but it is the calibration of the look up tables that are diffrent from bike to bike based on touring or softtails or Dyna's and weather it is a 88", 96", 103" or 110" as calibrated by the mo co. Is the ion sense look up table changed with your calibrations based on each build specified in your calibration listing file or is it left unchanged from the original burning of the code into the ecm and is not changed with the tts calibration. Specify a ecm that left the factory programmed for a 88" motor will flashing it with a tts tune file for a 110" change the ion sense file to match the 110" or is it left unchanged?  I do not know how to ask this question more specifically and I think that is what most people looking at this thread are wanting an answer for.

[hrdtail78]

...spark plugs can degrade over time and affect the operation of the ion sensing.

That's right! So you can just imagine when the wrong spark plug (resistance) is used.

This is why we insist on either the stock TC plug or the V-Rod plug (1 heat range cooler)...any other plug and all bets are off...unless the knock sensing is disabled...then it's all about not maximizing timing/power 'cause you can't rely on good gas.

Bob

Bob,

I have had success with AL 4164 and to go a step cooler I use the 4162.  On higher compression I like to close the gap a bit.  When you talk stock?  Do you mean champion or stock replacement?

Thanks,
Jason

[cts1950]

I will ask again

So let me be more specific in my question. This thread is about the sensitivity of the ion detection system. The question has been repeatedly asked can any thing be done about reducing it's sensitivity on engine builds with high ccp? You have not specifically answered this question. We understand the ECU is the same part number and use the same circuitry but it is the calibration of the look up tables that are diffrent from bike to bike based on touring or softtails or Dyna's and weather it is a 88", 96", 103" or 110" as calibrated by the mo co. Is the ion sense look up table changed with your calibrations based on each build specified in your calibration listing file or is it left unchanged from the original burning of the code into the ecm and is not changed with the tts calibration. Specify a ecm that left the factory programmed for a 88" motor will flashing it with a tts tune file for a 110" change the ion sense file to match the 110" or is it left unchanged?  I do not know how to ask this question more specifically and I think that is what most people looking at this thread are wanting an answer for.



Your lack of answers to this question speaks volumes. I will have to conclude you do not have access to these tables or the equipment necessary to calibrate the ion sense tables for the diffrent  builds. It appears only large company's such as GM,Ford and Mopar  have the necessary test labs and instrumentation to make these kinds adjustments. I guess we have to conclude there is no magic bullet to work out the bugs with high compression engines with the TTS system. All I hear you say is "Don't look behind the green curtain".

[ultraswede]

FYI,
In the LS1 tuning word this can be changed, Ion oversensitivity is a common problem on some model years.
Easy to fix when we have access to the tables.

[mayor]

The Ion sense circuit is the same in all calibrations but the calibration of it is not. How why and when it's allowed to work along with what it's looking for changes based on the build of the bike.

I read this statement as the sensitivity does change dependant on the calibration.  If allowing the end user to adjust the sensitivity is out of the question, is there a way for end users to determine which cals are less sensitive to knock retard?  can we assume that cals orginally designed for hi-compression builds have decreased sensitivity?

Herko recommended the the UJ205 cal for my 96" bike when I started tuning my bike earlier this year, because he said he routinely had better peak numbers from that cal when tuned on his dyno.  I noticed that the amount of timing I can run on my bike using that cal is higher than what others are able to run on other cals.  I would suspect that the reason why is based on the calibration of the ION sense circuit. 

I've seen a few cal's that seemed hyper sensitive on the front cylinder.  On coyote's bike, we had 3 degree's or more less timing on the front in some cells than the rear, and we were still having timing being pulled.  Is the ION sense circuit's sensitivity calibration individual to each cylinder or is it set the same for both?

[whittlebeast]

That is like saying "The VE tables are the same between all calibrations except all the numbers are all  different, and we hide them from you.  Good luck."

[mayor]

I'm not reading it that way.  I read it as the ion sensing is the same for each cal, but how the cal interprets that data might be different...meaning some might be more sensitive than others.

[autoworker]

The Ion sense circuit is the same in all calibrations but the calibration of it is not. How why and when it's allowed to work along with what it's looking for changes based on the build of the bike.

I read this statement as the sensitivity does change dependant on the calibration.  If allowing the end user to adjust the sensitivity is out of the question, is there a way for end users to determine which cals are less sensitive to knock retard?  can we assume that cals orginally designed for hi-compression builds have decreased sensitivity?

Couldn' t a person take a 110in. map for instance and change timing,injector size,etc....constants to mirror a map closer to the actual build and tune from there?

[mayor]

Yep, that's what I did with mine (mentioned in reply# 82). I'm curious if all larger c.i. cals have the same sensitivity?  With ability to change cam timing, there's no reason not to use a less sensitive cal..as long as spark timing is adressed.

[Mr. Wizard]

Couldn't help but to stumble on this thread and wade through all the banter but I do have a question that begins with a statement.

More is not always better and less can be more; as one of my Professors used to say. So with this in mind why should Steve open this Pandora's box? Seems to me this idea of a new ION table would only be used to mask another condition which could also be a serious build or tune flaw.

I don't want to be seen as someone kissing Steve's butt on this but, just say'n... this not only could be but will be an issue and who do you think will catch all the fall out? Tuners? Think again....

Yes it would be nice to know which cals have less sensitivity and I'm all ears on that. Thank you guys who ask that question.

[whittlebeast]

So expose it but gray it out so it can't be edited.  At least people would know Base Tune A is different than Base Tune B.

[mayor]

More is not always better and less can be more; as one of my Professors used to say. So with this in mind why should Steve open this Pandora's box? Seems to me this idea of a new ION table would only be used to mask another condition which could also be a serious build or tune flaw.

I don't disagree with this, but I can't entirely agree either.   I think having an ION sensitivity table available to end users comes with some huge negatives, but the end user can already turn off knock retard if they wish (at least some of the knock retard function, not all).  I think that the value that TTS brings is offering more adjustments to the tuner than any other system, and just because they are there doesn't mean that those tables have to be adjusted. 

Where I see value in being able to adjust the sensitivity is in the hi-dynamic pressure builds, since those are the ones that are likely be hard to keep from retarding the timing... even if the timing and afr are correct.  The caveat is an assumption has to be made that the afr is correct, that's if the ve's were populated with vtune and not confirmed with an external test method.  A real problem that can come in when a tuner adjusts the sensitivity to mask a knock retard situation created by a lean condition.   The real problem that we have now is there's tuners out there retarding their timing to limit knock retard based on what they see in a data recording, and opening themselves up to engine damage from timing being overly retarded (no pun intended  ), and sometimes the system is retarding the timing on it's own to potentially problematic values and the operator doesn't even know because the assume that everything is hunky dory.

So expose it but gray it out so it can't be edited.  At least people would know Base Tune A is different than Base Tune B.

I like this idea.      I think this also gives TTS an opportunity to get good feed back from end users as to what settings are working good, and which ones seem over sensitive. 

[Mr. Wizard]

Yes sir, I think the honky dory approach is what scares me the most. This can be visualized by the use of a lesser tuning product and "here ya go" calibration.

Retardation comes in many forms from the technical to the human to the abyss and not knowing the business of a Tuning Product Liability is a form of that retardation to the masses, I am certainly retarded in such this way. Suggestions are unlimited, product support is limited to value of said support, marketing and need. End users vary from "no clue" to the abyss  which can be difficult in any "safe" marketing and support.

Mayor... wasn't there a suggestion a long time ago about there could be two software versions? General Tuning and Highly Advanced with the HA version product disclaimer being rigorous? Don't want to bring up old conversations but at this point tossing old underwear against the wall to see what sticks can give it new life.

-wiz

[mayor]

I'm not personally aware that there was a discussion a while back about different version of the software.  Keep in mind, my TTS user experience is still being measured in months.     I do remember BV recommending a stripped down cheaper version for Pro guys like him that tunes open loop, but I don't remember any other discusion regarding different versions.   

[Mr. Wizard]

Sorry Mayor....

This was a few years ago. May not have been on this site.

To bring up an old skeleton... General Tuning would be standard. A password would be required to give access to the Advanced Tables. There would be no product support in the manual for the advanced version and no mention of the advanced features.

But again... this was old news. It's practically today would be qualified only by Steve if he thought it to be necessary or more convenient to split the knowledgeable hierarchy from the self tuner platform.

[cts1950]

I am not saying give us control of the ion sense tables. Viewing them might be helpfull I just want to know simply is in fact is there a way to select diffrent cals that have less ion sensitivity and will the TTS cals in fact reprogram our older ecms with a new ions sense tables when we select a cal from TTS lists of cals.

[Rider57]

Can't figure this problem out..
I use the CYA176 cal and tuned my 107 with it. I didnt change the CI or injectors.
2:1 exhaust.
I dont have anywhere near the issues stated here. It does'nt ping.
So I am trying to duplicate the issue to see if I can help.
I still have access to the lab and a few dorky scientists that know thier chit.
As I read here, the problem is really across the board but mostly with the big builds.
Thats where I will start.
Any other ideas I could look at?

[FLTRI]

So expose it but gray it out so it can't be edited.  At least people would know Base Tune A is different than Base Tune B.

Andy,
That's the best input I've ever heard from you on this forum.

If TTS doesn't want users to access this table, making it transparent for the tuner to pick and choose from should keep SC and the tuner happy.

Hopefully SC will see the advantage of seeing the table...even if we can't alter them...which is what SC offers as 1 reason for not allowing changes.
-------------------
Off topic but I think this needs to be said:

We must remember; SC is the entire R&D, mfg, and tech support departments for TTS product.

Every feature added must be completely tested and then tech supported...the more features the more tech support time needed for that support.

Just look at some of the questions and confusion created with the addition of the EGR and CAM features alone.

ie: Some folks are misreading their data recordings and making huge CAM changes to virtually STOCK bikes.

We ask for...no demand features. Then, when we get them, we need tech support to understand and properly use them.

THAT TAKES VALUABLE TIME FROM TTS' BUSY DAY TRYING TO KEEP UP WITH SOFTWARE MODS AND BASE CALIBRATIONS FOR NEW BIKES COMING OUT...EVERY 12 MONTHS.

I assume after over 25 years of EFI tuning, calibration work, and software development dealing with technical issues and support of very complicated tuning programs and aspects of his products, when SC gets the flack from the few here that heckle him over his product it is no wonder why his "bedside manner" is less than congenial to those who constantly challenge him for his knowledge by daring and taunting him.

Yes, Steve Cole is my friend and I look at him as a mentor with his products and EFI in general. He is a plethora of EFI/tuning information with the experiences to back them up.

I have yet to get steered in a wrong direction and always found his knowledge based on actual experiences rather than guesses and/or assumptions. A very conservative man...to his credit, IMO.

Hopefully this will be taken in the spirit in which it was intended,
Bob

[BVHOG]

So lets say you have a few choices on sensitivity, which one do you think most guys will go for?
Unless we can find a reliable answer to why this is happening you might as well just shut the feature off. There could be a range of sensitivity possibly based on compression but even then that wouldn't work, a good set of heads and a proper squish area can run more compression and advance if necessary without detonation while a poor set of heads and poor squish or combustion chamber design will not allow for the same. I think the system has it's limits any way you look at it and it actually works quite well but like all things there is always that exception.
Now lets throw in various fuel quality on a cross country trip and let the fun begin.

[mayor]

Unless we can find a reliable answer to why this is happening you might as well just shut the feature off.

I agree, but it appears to me based on viewing data recordings is that the fast retard still remains active even when knock retard is turned off. 

I think the thing that makes the knock retard function a tricky thing is yes it can somewhat protect the engine in cases of over advanced timing or lean conditions, but it can also hurt performance, hurt efficiency, and create a situation that could cause increased heat if the trigger was due to a change in pressure rather than due to one of the fore mentioned events.  I see adjusting the sensitivity being a huge benefit when one cylinder is pulling timing like crazy at substantially lower timing compared to the other cylinder and when that pulled timing does not seem to be reduced when more fuel is added (like in the case with coyote's bike).  If the retarding the timing doesn't reduce the tendency and more fuel doesn't reduce the tendency, then the reading has to be pressure related which is likely then a false reading...at least that's what I would think.    

There could be a range of sensitivity possibly based on compression but even then that wouldn't work, a good set of heads and a proper squish area can run more compression and advance if necessary without detonation while a poor set of heads and poor squish or combustion chamber design will not allow for the same.

I don't disagree, but the part that concerns me is the fact that creating the right conditions to allow an engine to safely take more timing can easily be lost on a knock retard system that doesn't know the difference between a knock or pressure change. 

[FBRR]

I really do not with to stir the pot as it were. But talking about "adjusting the sensitivity" is NOT in the software. It demonstrates a little lack of knowledge for how the system works and the algorithms involved. You can limit the AMOUNT of KNOCK retard available, but that is not "sensitivity." That is system authority!
The system is calibrated using sophisicated cylinder pressure sensing and very high speed computers to examine changes in pressure vs "fractions of cravk angle degrees". That takes tremendous computing resources to just record the data. ANd those sensors used to measure cylinder pressure during combustion are very "tender" and fast. They are cleaned sometimes more than two or three times for just one sweep of spark events, at one load point. The data is then read to decide exactly when and how much spark produces a given rise in pressure, and then the corresponding VALUES from the "ION feedback" is calibrated in a table. It is not really correct to call that "sensitivity" as if you can "de-sensitize" the output. You either sense the onset of knock or you don't!
The problem with modified engines comes in because those table values no longer apply to the change in cylinder pressure and chamber design. So allowing "everyone" access without EVERYONE having a huge computer and the software that allow the data to be read, and just making "changes" would not solve anything. As I said it isn't just changing a value up or down it is having the correct value to correspond to the onset of knock! You either have knock about to occur or you don't.

The tables that affect how fast the system reacts AFTER knock is detected are the attach and recovery rates for both fast and "gobal/"learned" knock. Those too much work in concert with each other or the system will fight itself in may increase knock levels and events, if the wrong values are placed in the wrong "attack and recovery" rates!

[mayor]

I really do not with to stir the pot as it were. But talking about "adjusting the sensitivity" is NOT in the software. It demonstrates a little lack of knowledge for how the system works and the algorithms involved.

I kind of thought that was that was what this thread was about, trying to gain a better understanding how the knock retard function is tied into the system and whether the triggers it creates for a retard in timing was adjustable.     so in essence, the thread was an open admition that there was a lack of knowledge of how the system works.  A vast majority of us have no clue how the system works, that's why we ask these types of questions. 

It is not really correct to call that "sensitivity" as if you can "de-sensitize" the output. You either sense the onset of knock or you don't!   

You either have knock about to occur or you don't.

The problem with modified engines comes in because those table values no longer apply to the change in cylinder pressure and chamber design.

OK, does this mean that if a calibration shows knock retard happening....there was an event that definitely showed knock was going to occur? meaning, there is no false hits? 

I'm a laymen who doesn't understand the idiosyncrasies of the Delphi system.  I'm just trying to understand why one cal would allow as much as 12 degree more timing than another on the exact same engine.      my guess is the original poster was curious of the same, and that's why he started the thread. I think the last sentence of the above quoted text might hold the key, but I don't know what that means to me.   

[BVHOG]

I take it as the "attack and recovery is the time it takes to pull timing and then to gradually reintroduce it to the main spark tables, if I am doing a wot pull on the dyno and I see so much as a tiny bounce in the knock gauge needles (DTT) I will shut down as it will continue to pull timing during the run and kill power and throw off the collected afr data. I have also watched on a couple occasions as it pulled timing, quickly reintroduced it and then pulled it again further up the rpm. It is generally at the beginning of the run as trying to get that heavy drum going for a roll on test, like it or not is pretty much lugging the motor a bit, I would assume at this high MAP, low rpm area the fuel vaporization and mixture withing the combustion chamber would not be optimal due to low velocity through the ports.

[cts1950]

I really do not with to stir the pot as it were. But talking about "adjusting the sensitivity" is NOT in the software. It demonstrates a little lack of knowledge for how the system works and the algorithms involved. You can limit the AMOUNT of KNOCK retard available, but that is not "sensitivity." That is system authority!
The system is calibrated using sophisicated cylinder pressure sensing and very high speed computers to examine changes in pressure vs "fractions of cravk angle degrees". That takes tremendous computing resources to just record the data. ANd those sensors used to measure cylinder pressure during combustion are very "tender" and fast. They are cleaned sometimes more than two or three times for just one sweep of spark events, at one load point. The data is then read to decide exactly when and how much spark produces a given rise in pressure, and then the corresponding VALUES from the "ION feedback" is calibrated in a table. It is not really correct to call that "sensitivity" as if you can "de-sensitize" the output. You either sense the onset of knock or you don't!
The problem with modified engines comes in because those table values no longer apply to the change in cylinder pressure and chamber design. So allowing "everyone" access without EVERYONE having a huge computer and the software that allow the data to be read, and just making "changes" would not solve anything. As I said it isn't just changing a value up or down it is having the correct value to correspond to the onset of knock! You either have knock about to occur or you don't.The tables that affect how fast the system reacts AFTER knock is detected are the attach and recovery rates for both fast and "gobal/"learned" knock. Those too much work in concert with each other or the system will fight itself in may increase knock levels and events, if the wrong values are placed in the wrong "attack and recovery" rates!

I agree
The question I have been asking  and have not been answered is dose the TTS software reprogram the ions sense tables to the description of the build in the cal files. I have a ecm that was programed at the factory as a 96" engine after converting it to a 103 motor and fighting fast retard events and not being able to tune them out by adding fuel to the point of being too rich and retarding the timing to a point of loss of power.  It will  soon be a 107" motor, will selecting the cal file for a 110 motor transfer the ion sense table for the 110 motor to my existing ecm. Or is it forever stuck with the ion sense files of a 96" engine that answer is all I have been asking for.

[mayor]

Steve, relax man.  I don't think anyone was trying to get you worked up or trying to get you to divolge trade secrets. We're all just trying to understand who this stuff works.   Not the indepth details, but more like the general scope of things. 

[Coyote]

Now I know why my knock detection is too sensitive.     Oye...

[ultraswede]

While I have not stayed up on the latest versions of the LS motors all the motors through 2008 used Knock sensors and not ION sensing. These are two completely different things and are handled different as well.

SC you are right, my misstake.
I know in detail the diff betwen Ion sense and a knock sensor.

[cts1950]

So what I got out of Steve's last post  before he pulled it is.
1 all of the calibrations offered by TTS have custom ion sense tables.
2 they may be vastly different from each other.
3 if we have problems with false fast retards try another calibration it may get better or worse.
4 he has equipment enough to detect the retard events: like all of us he would like more.

Conclusion by reading between the lines
Most of us on the forum have no interest on hacking the innerworkings of Steve's programing.
Until this thread most of us did not know about ion sense tables.
A lot of us have become frustrated by the lack of ability to tune out false retard events with out any direction on what to try next after you adjust the VE tables and try working on timing until you have removed way too much and still have the problem.
Some have noted that engines with higher ccp are more prone to these problems.
110 engines have ccp over 200 their tables might be useful, unknown at this time.
It would be nice to have some indication in the notes of each tuning file of some scale of ion sense baseline,( I have noted that the retard events go all to hell over 50 kpa) if nothing more than a trail of crumbs so we might have a direction on which tune to try if the one we are using dose not work.
I am sure I have misread and making some assumptions.
Please feel free to correct any misstatements.

[autoworker]

So what I got out of Steve's last post  before he pulled it is.


He gather up his marbles and go home?

[FLTRI]

How's this for a way to deal with false retards?

If you detect false retards and it lowers power (gotta have a way to measure) disable the knock sensong.

Retest to see the improvement, if there, then leave it off.

As Don mentioned, we seemed to do just fine without knock sensing in the past.

If you don't like the way the ion system works for a particular build...don't use it.

Bob
PS - If I see a hp drop on a wide open pull with ion sensing enabled (as compared to a non-ion pull)...I reduce timing 2-5degs at 80-100kpa and repeat to see the results.
If the power improves I repeat until I see a loss in power the back up a change. Then disable ion sensing to see if there is a difference. Usually this procedure cures the problem. If not...look for other contributors to the issue.

[fatboy]

How's this for a way to deal with false retards?

If you detect false retards and it lowers power (gotta have a way to measure) disable the knock sensong.

Retest to see the improvement, if there, then leave it off.

As Don mentioned, we seemed to do just fine without knock sensing in the past.

If you don't like the way the ion system works for a particular build...don't use it.

Bob
PS - If I see a hp drop on a wide open pull with ion sensing enabled (as compared to a non-ion pull)...I reduce timing 2-5degs at 80-100kpa and repeat to see the results.
If the power improves I repeat until I see a loss in power the back up a change. Then disable ion sensing to see if there is a difference. Usually this procedure cures the problem. If not...look for other contributors to the issue.

Does it really turn off all of the Ion system....even Fast retard??
Someone commented that not all of it was not turned off by setting "Knock Control" to 0 .

[FLTRI]

As I understand it:
Disabling knock control in the "tuning constants" table turns off knock control.
Inserting 0 in the "adaptive knock retard" table is telling the system not to learn knock control for long term.
HTH,
Bob

[BVHOG]

How's this for a way to deal with false retards?

If you detect false retards and it lowers power (gotta have a way to measure) disable the knock sensong.

Retest to see the improvement, if there, then leave it off.

As Don mentioned, we seemed to do just fine without knock sensing in the past.

If you don't like the way the ion system works for a particular build...don't use it.

Bob
PS - If I see a hp drop on a wide open pull with ion sensing enabled (as compared to a non-ion pull)...I reduce timing 2-5degs at 80-100kpa and repeat to see the results.
If the power improves I repeat until I see a loss in power the back up a change. Then disable ion sensing to see if there is a difference. Usually this procedure cures the problem. If not...look for other contributors to the issue.

That makes good sense and I would assume if we were actually getting true detonation the power levels would drop. The MM bikes I have tuned have ran just fine with no pinging issues. I still believe the main problem is poor air fuel homogenization that is causing the false retard.

[fatboy]

As I understand it:
Disabling knock control in the "tuning constants" table turns off knock control.
Inserting 0 in the "adaptive knock retard" table is telling the system not to learn knock control for long term.
HTH,
Bob

Thanks, I was hoping that was true.

[strokerjlk]

If I see a hp drop on a wide open pull with ion sensing enabled (as compared to a non-ion pull)...I reduce timing 2-5degs at 80-100kpa and repeat to see the results.
If the power improves I repeat until I see a loss in power the back up a change. Then disable ion sensing to see if there is a difference. Usually this procedure cures the problem. If not...look for other contributors to the issue.

and I know bvbob does the same ,as do any other tuner I have every spoke with.
so ...contributors? one thing to look at. Heat . DIY guys what temp do you see this start at? what are you doing in your spark temp tables?
if you spend any time tuning sert and sespt,you get to know the stock ecm temp corrections. they vary as well according to cals.some pull as much as 15 deg at wot. @280-300 deg. do you really think if you 0 out the temp tables they are in fact the same at any temp?
there has been alot of talk about the 110 MAPS?? IMO certain 110 and 113 cals work better than others. tts or sespt. and I use them most of the time on anything that has bigger t/b. or even most  stock t/b 103 that have over 190 ccp. big cams, or crazy over ported heads.

FBBR  good stuff as always

BVbob dosent help your original question. but these diy guys having trouble is totally diff. these are builds that shouldn't be having any trouble with ION.
these that require the ION sensing to be shut off are pretty easy to see and the ccp is starting to be more like 200ccp instead of 220 ccp anymore.
I am thinking fuel quality contributes as well. the fuel in my area sucks. I just went through your area and found some really good fuel.  the 91 non ethanol was way better than our 93 corn. the UP had 89 real that was better than our 93 corn. I found sunoco 100 real in WV.   
that brings up lean condition.  another contributor

[wurk_truk]

I'm digging on FBRR, too.  Really nice guy actually.  And for some... this WILL make a difference...  FBRR sells NOTHING on here or anywhere.  And while, he personally did NOT design the MOCO base codes, he told me he DID design the base code for that family of Delhi ECMs.

Here's MY take on this from WAY left field.  Everytime I go look into ION sensing, the ION sense is actually part of the coil (look in Wikipedia and the wiring diagrams of it).  It's built into each coil on a car engine and I have assumed our MOCO crap is one coil anyways (thats made to no longer fire that wasted spark)...  where are TWO Ion outputs from the coil? ... there is only one, so the ECM has to decide what cylinder the ION event is happening anyways.  THIS can screw it up a bit for sure.  Things going a million miles an hour AND the ECM has to decide what cylinder the event is really happening inside of, too?  Don makes perfect sense to me when we look at 1) what FBRR said; 2) the ECM has to decide what cylinder is mis behaving; 3) one can NOT change at all what pressure value is manufactured into the ion portion of the coil.

For CTS1950...  I would look and se if 110CVOs have a different PN for the coils, and I bet they do not.  But if they do???  I would buy one in a heart beat.

ION sensing is cool and all, but the coils are 'modeled' using all stock parts with stock flame fronts and stock cylinder pressures, right?  The further we move away from that, how can that coil keep up?  Its a hardware thing, not a software thing.  An actual knock sensor like on the ole Z06 (LS7) woulda worked better.  For software to be able to work with a 'fixed point input'  a mechanism like as used with 'fuel control' would need to be in place where the ECM could VERIFY an event...  and I have no clue on our ECMs ability to do that, and exactly HOW it could be done.

If it doesn't work as advertised... turn it off, AFTER playing a bit with the spark temp tables like Jim suggests.  These same coils are used on Hurricane builds and I WONDER if MOCO turns off ION for those, or how those builds are manipulated?

[mayor]

one thing to look at. Heat . DIY guys what temp do you see this start at? what are you doing in your spark temp tables?

from what I've seen, the pulled timing was not necessarily engine temp heat related. It's happening just as much at 90°c as 125°c, despite the different value in the spark temp tables.  Another thing I noticed is it's not happening across the board at particular MAP ranges, which means adjusting the spark temp tables would likely reduce timing in other areas unnecessarily.  Most of what I've seen happens in a particular area (2,700-3,100 around 50-70 kPa).  This has me curious if EGR is confusing the o2 readings.  I have also seen cases where an engine will take 2 or 3 degree's more at 2,500 then at 2,700 at the same MAP values, which doesn't make sense to me. 

I am thinking fuel quality contributes as well. the fuel in my area sucks. I just went through your area and found some really good fuel.  the 91 non ethanol was way better than our 93 corn. the UP had 89 real that was better than our 93 corn. I found sunoco 100 real in WV.   

that brings up lean condition.  another contributor

I agree that fuel quality is likely causing a big issue.  When coyote was running a stock 103", his bike was pulling timing in areas that JeffD wasn't when both were running the exact same timing on the exact same build with the exact same cal (both vtuned to their bike).  Heat was another variable between the two, but JeffD ran another data run later when his weather was warmer and there was not timing being pulled.  The tolerances of the engine build could have contributed as well, but let's hope that the MoCo has somewhat tight enough tolerance to limit that variable.  My guess is it was fuel, since the people's republik of Kalifornia has some pretty strict rules when it comes to all stuff automotive. 

I know this might open up a can of worms, but I do suspect that a lean condition could be causing part of this problem.  Most of the issues that we've seen with Keith's bike (and 7mm's) seem to happen in an area that EGR would be present.  I think this is a good reason to adjust the EGR tables to try to limit the amount of change between the transitions.   

These same coils are used on Hurricane builds and I WONDER if MOCO turns off ION for those, or how those builds are manipulated?

what's a Hurricane build? 

[wurk_truk]

Two different 120R builds available from the MOCO.  One using MVA heads and can be bought as a complete engine or a kit, and the Hi Po version... the one with Hurricane heads, that only come as a kit.  The U Tube videos you see of 120s doing 10's or 11's in the 1/4 are all hurricane builds.

[BVHOG]

one thing to look at. Heat . DIY guys what temp do you see this start at? what are you doing in your spark temp tables?

from what I've seen, the pulled timing was not necessarily engine temp heat related. It's happening just as much at 90°c as 125°c, despite the different value in the spark temp tables.  Another thing I noticed is it's not happening across the board at particular MAP ranges, which means adjusting the spark temp tables would likely reduce timing in other areas unnecessarily.  Most of what I've seen happens in a particular area (2,700-3,100 around 50-70 kPa).  This has me curious if EGR is confusing the o2 readings.  I have also seen cases where an engine will take 2 or 3 degree's more at 2,500 then at 2,700 at the same MAP values, which doesn't make sense to me. 

I am thinking fuel quality contributes as well. the fuel in my area sucks. I just went through your area and found some really good fuel.  the 91 non ethanol was way better than our 93 corn. the UP had 89 real that was better than our 93 corn. I found sunoco 100 real in WV.   

that brings up lean condition.  another contributor

I agree that fuel quality is likely causing a big issue.  When coyote was running a stock 103", his bike was pulling timing in areas that JeffD wasn't when both were running the exact same timing on the exact same build with the exact same cal (both vtuned to their bike).  Heat was another variable between the two, but JeffD ran another data run later when his weather was warmer and there was not timing being pulled.  The tolerances of the engine build could have contributed as well, but let's hope that the MoCo has somewhat tight enough tolerance to limit that variable.  My guess is it was fuel, since the people's republik of Kalifornia has some pretty strict rules when it comes to all stuff automotive. 

I know this might open up a can of worms, but I do suspect that a lean condition could be causing part of this problem.  Most of the issues that we've seen with Keith's bike (and 7mm's) seem to happen in an area that EGR would be present.  I think this is a good reason to adjust the EGR tables to try to limit the amount of change between the transitions.   

These same coils are used on Hurricane builds and I WONDER if MOCO turns off ION for those, or how those builds are manipulated?

what's a Hurricane build?

consider that at 2700 rpm the cam may just be coming into it's own and packing the cylinders with more air resulting in higher dynamic compression.
As for the differing cals for ion sense, I believe it is a waste of time, I used the same base cal on a 10 to 1 compression 103 last week that I had previously used on a higher comp 107 that you couldn't make the ion sense feature kick in on and the 103 was hitting it with very light load. The 103 had a very basic set of heads on it while the 107 had the latest and greatest cnc stuff from R&R.
Like my old buddy Steve Cole eluded to in a previous post, there is a lot more going on here than we know and there aint none of us going to spend tens of thousands of dollars to possibly find out.

[mayor]

consider that at 2700 rpm the cam may just be coming into it's own and packing the cylinders with more air resulting in higher dynamic compression.

very good point, and both builds I was referring to did have similar cam profiles. 

How much different in timing between the cylinders is acceptable when adjusting based on knock retard?  I figured anything around two degrees or less would be acceptable, but we had cases where coyote's wouldn't take even four degree's less.    that just seems like a lot, especially considering it's the front I'm referring too. 

[FLTRI]

I agree with these changes:

...Like my old buddy Steve Cole eluded to in a previous post, there is a lot more going on here than we know and there aint none of us going to spend tens hundreds of thousands of dollars to possibly find out install, measure, diagnose, and redesign the existing system for <1000 bikes.

[hrdtail78]

one thing to look at. Heat . DIY guys what temp do you see this start at? what are you doing in your spark temp tables?

from what I've seen, the pulled timing was not necessarily engine temp heat related. It's happening just as much at 90°c as 125°c, despite the different value in the spark temp tables.  Another thing I noticed is it's not happening across the board at particular MAP ranges, which means adjusting the spark temp tables would likely reduce timing in other areas unnecessarily.  Most of what I've seen happens in a particular area (2,700-3,100 around 50-70 kPa).  This has me curious if EGR is confusing the o2 readings.  I have also seen cases where an engine will take 2 or 3 degree's more at 2,500 then at 2,700 at the same MAP values, which doesn't make sense to me. 

I am thinking fuel quality contributes as well. the fuel in my area sucks. I just went through your area and found some really good fuel.  the 91 non ethanol was way better than our 93 corn. the UP had 89 real that was better than our 93 corn. I found sunoco 100 real in WV.   

that brings up lean condition.  another contributor

I agree that fuel quality is likely causing a big issue.  When coyote was running a stock 103", his bike was pulling timing in areas that JeffD wasn't when both were running the exact same timing on the exact same build with the exact same cal (both vtuned to their bike).  Heat was another variable between the two, but JeffD ran another data run later when his weather was warmer and there was not timing being pulled.  The tolerances of the engine build could have contributed as well, but let's hope that the MoCo has somewhat tight enough tolerance to limit that variable.  My guess is it was fuel, since the people's republik of Kalifornia has some pretty strict rules when it comes to all stuff automotive. 

I know this might open up a can of worms, but I do suspect that a lean condition could be causing part of this problem.  Most of the issues that we've seen with Keith's bike (and 7mm's) seem to happen in an area that EGR would be present.  I think this is a good reason to adjust the EGR tables to try to limit the amount of change between the transitions.   

These same coils are used on Hurricane builds and I WONDER if MOCO turns off ION for those, or how those builds are manipulated?

what's a Hurricane build?

I have seen you and other talking pulling the timing.  Are you seeing this timing being pulled with the ION sensing in steady state or roll on?  Because the Accel enrichment table might be the place to deal with this.  Instead of pulling timing.

[Rider57]

Partially duplicating this issue has pointed to FLTRI and BVHOG being on the right track.
Yes, ION sensing is partially the function of the coil along with the early collapse of the field in the coil, caused by the reverse bias being seen by the ecm from that collapse. Now, if we could put in place a RC time constant on that bias, and make it adjustable from say 100 to 500 ms,.......

[mayor]

I have seen you and other talking pulling the timing.  Are you seeing this timing being pulled with the ION sensing in steady state or roll on?  Because the Accel enrichment table might be the place to deal with this.  Instead of pulling timing.

it appears to be from both scenario's, steady state throttle (with load changing the MAP reading) and quick throttle. In the case of sudden acceleration, the AE value could defineatly be a culprit.  I thought about the increasing the AE table on Keith's to see if that helps, but we decided to try another cal instead.  That other cal (ETA009) has already been vtuned in, so hopefully we'll see some results on whether it made a difference in a day or so.  The interesting thing is the front cylinder dialed in almost the same as the previous cal (DUH).  The rear came out with good bit of change, but that could have been due to some preemptive EGR adjustments. 

If we see the timing being pulled again like it was, I'll try increasing the AE values to see if it makes a difference.   The tricky part about adjusting that is, I'm not sure how much amount of change is enough to make a difference without being too much and I'm not sure how to describe to Keith on how to make sure I didn't give him to much AE value.    What's considered not enough and what's considered too much when adjusting that table?    what I mean by this is will 1 to 2 increments make a difference, or do I need to try for 5?  Since the results would be subjective to the rider, would the describing whether or not the AE value is right be similar as describing the tuning of the accelerator pump of a Mikuni?  I'm assuming if the bike falls flat it's too fat? 

[mayor]

Keith made a good discovery with his problem with the knock retard.  he made two data runs today, here's the first:

all those brown vertical lines is where the adaptive knock retard pulled timing on the front.

he made one change, and here was his next data recording:

that change had nothing to do with the tuning program, so TTS and the Delphi system had nothing to do with the problem.  He simply changed the front plug.    we still have some timing being pulled, but they appear to be in open loop areas. I think this test that Keith did backs up what Bob (FLTRI) has been saying for quite a while regarding how important the plugs are in the knock retard function.  In this case, Keith was using an HD plug, but it was still adding "noise" into the system.   Keith said that both plugs were gapped to ~ .040", so gap doesn't seem to be the issue. 

[pappy]

Mayor

If he was using a HD plug to start with, which plug is he using now?
I'm waiting in suspense. I've tried everything.

pappy

[mayor]

He said both were the same from HD.   

[pappy]

Mayor

Then he just replaced it with a new plug?
The old was degraded?

Thanks
pappy

[Coyote]

Mayor

Then he just replaced it with a new plug?
The old was degraded?

Thanks
pappy

Both were stock HD plugs. The bad one was original on my 2011 RG. It had 6k miles on it. The other one was the same plug that I've had in my roadside tool kit for 5 years now. Same p/n though. I just gapped it and installed it. Figured it wouldn't matter but gave it a shot.

[FSG]

I would have liked to see you swap the plugs between front & rear first, BTJM.   

[Coyote]

I would have liked to see you swap the plugs between front & rear first, BTJM.   

I still have the original front plug. Whenever is convenient, I can do the test and show you but you'll have to buy lunch afterwards. 

[BVHOG]

So were all conditions kept the same between data logs, engine temp, intake air temp etc?

[mayor]

pretty close the same conditions, one was run in the late morning and the other was late afternoon. If anything, the first was a little cooler.

here's the data runs:

• scan 1



• scan 2

the cal that he ran should be attached. 

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

more news on the adaptive knock retard sensitivity issues with coyotes bike.  We used the data recording from scan #2 to tweak the cal that was run during that recording.  We were encouraged after the last run that the problems may have been an issue with how the spark plug was affecting the ION sensing, so we decided to double down and see if we could now add timing back in.  We advanced the timing some of the previous offending cells on the front, along with increases to the ve's in open loop areas. 

Here's the front cylinder timing changes we made from the last cal:

we were having some timing being pulled in the 45 kPa and less cells before, so we wanted to see if these could be advanced.   

here's a screen shot of the data recording:

I don't think he hit every cell we changed, but this was still very encouraging results. There was only one area on the front that timing was being pulled (rec 1975) during a acceleration from 1200 to 1700 at around 58 kPa.  My guess is was likely due to being over advanced, unfortunately I missed it when I sent him the next cal...so let's not share that with coyote.     I think I even advanced that area some more, so my guess is it will pull again there.    

I think the spark plug change made a huge difference in the ION sensing, so the question I have for the experts...why?  I know that the sensing is done there, but what I mean is how do if our spark plugs are causing fantom readings?

here's the data run:

• scan 3

[Rider57]

It could have been the capacitive effect that is inhearent in sparkplugs. That effect changes as the dynamics of the plug heats up and cools down cycle after cycle. Changing the gap also influnces this issue.

[hotroadking]

That's pretty interesting information, what are the odds that a bad plug would
show up on a members bike doing a TTS dyno tune. 

It seems to indicate as Steve said, it's more than simply a table you can go
and play with, you have to determine what specifically is causing the action
vs simply playing with how the system reacts to a code....

[FLTRI]

...what are the odds that a bad plug would show up on a members bike doing a TTS dyno tune.

Pretty good if the tuner knows what to look for like power variables over 3-5 pulls when all conditions are virtually the same.


I believe it is safe to say front and rear cylinder do not always have the same dynamic (engine running) compression...one would need very expensive equipment to identify the pressure differences front-to-rear.

Bob

[timtoolman]

so with the wide gap variable setting from the factory, what is the correct gap?

[hotroadking]

Interesting too that on cvo board it's been discussed that knock has been a problem for many and that the
easy fix is to change the plugs to 32186-10


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cts1950]

I did a google search on that plug # and came up with this thread / add still interesting.
http://www.harley-davidson-forum.net/showthread.php?p=52633
They admit false retard is common and this plug may help
They aren't cheap but they might be worth a try it is advertised as a high compression ion sense plug.

[hrdtail78]

Interesting too that on cvo board it's been discussed that knock has been a problem for many and that the
easy fix is to change the plugs to 32186-10


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Those are the plugs that came with my 120R.

[hotroadking]

 Perhaps there is something to the
plug and the higher compression engines.

I need to check my 110 and make sure it
doesn't have a different plug...

[timtoolman]

ive been using that plug  gapped at .035 @ 10.5.1 comp

[mayor]

funny Tim, when I saw those plugs cost $16 each....I figured you had at least one set.   

[timtoolman]

actually I have 2 sets!!!!!!!

[mayor]

don't worry, now that the price of gold is going through the roof...used one's should be going for $20/each soon enough. 

[timtoolman]

but these are platinum which for now is cheaper than gold!!

[hotroadking]

how many miles were on the plug that was replaced?

seems like it might be just a simple test to replace the plug
with a new of the same model plug, while the more expensive
plugs might be "immune" to the ion knock issue and a good
choice when you have a high comp build it might just
be that the offending plug(s) are bad or used or outside the
tolerance that the ion system demands for proper operation.

IMHO it's what Steve was saying, it's not the software
that needs to solve your problem its the problem the software
is pinpointing, and perhaps the solution is elsewhere.

There is no simple solution to everything, somethings
take experience, patience and trial and error.

but thats jmo

[cts1950]

I just bought a set this evening and I was wrong on the piece it was 16.00 a pair.

[mayor]

yea, Tim texted me to tell me it they were $16/pair as well.  He seemed disappointed in their affordability.   

[BVHOG]

A little more reading on the subject

http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto/powertrain/gas/ignsys/ionized/

[timtoolman]

 

[timtoolman]

I had 6 k  on the plugs. They were "fuzzy" when i took them out. They didnt look happy.somekind of deposits on them.

[Rider57]

Damn! It IS a RC circuit!

[FBRR]

And the key phrase in "their" (Delphi's) Literature is:
"The resulting Ion Sense signal contains combustion information. Processing of the signal allows it to be used for engine control features that require knowledge of combustion characteristics"

i.e.
Output from the coil sensor readings vs. combustion at the onset of detonation, which is being measured by the combustion equipment ( and recorded by a LARGE computer) during calibration.

[cts1950]

i.e.
Output from the coil sensor readings vs. combustion at the onset of detonation, which is being measured by the combustion equipment ( and recorded by a LARGE computer) during calibration.

  Is this equipment i.e. large computer and delicate sensors something that is affordable for small shops like Steve's or it this equipment so specialized and expensive only large corporations like GM or publicly owned testing labs can afford. Are the sensors something that needs to be installed into the combustion chambers on a test engine and would destroy it for road use afterwards?

[Rider57]

It's a test bed, not an engine. I used one when I was with the EPA. Basically it is a combustion chamber with calibrated sensors and plasma detection probes. The instant the fuel ignites there is a "flash" of plasma that gets generated. The timing of the fuel burn in relation to the duration of the plasma flash can be used to quantify the amount of fuel that causes detonation. That flash results in ionization that can be
can be measured by conductivity within the spent fuel (exhausted gasses).

[pappy]

It's a test bed, not an engine. I used one when I was with the EPA. Basically it is a combustion chamber with calibrated sensors and plasma detection probes. The instant the fuel ignites there is a "flash" of plasma that gets generated. The timing of the fuel burn in relation to the duration of the plasma flash can be used to quantify the amount of fuel that causes detonation. That flash results in ionization that can be
can be measured by conductivity within the spent fuel (exhausted gasses).

Isn't EGR spent fuel? In other words greater EGR resulting in greater false knock, or even actual knock for that matter?

pappy

[Rider57]

It's a test bed, not an engine. I used one when I was with the EPA. Basically it is a combustion chamber with calibrated sensors and plasma detection probes. The instant the fuel ignites there is a "flash" of plasma that gets generated. The timing of the fuel burn in relation to the duration of the plasma flash can be used to quantify the amount of fuel that causes detonation. That flash results in ionization that
can be measured by conductivity within the spent fuel (exhausted gasses).

Can then  this conductivity within the spent fuel also be related to the amount of EGR. Hence, greater EGR resulting in greater false knock, or even actual knock for that matter?

pappy

That's really a question for a scientist, but it is the ionization that gets measured. I would believe the answer would be no to your EGR effect.

[05Train]

Keith made a good discovery with his problem with the knock retard.  he made two data runs today, here's the first:

all those brown vertical lines is where the adaptive knock retard pulled timing on the front.

he made one change, and here was his next data recording:

that change had nothing to do with the tuning program, so TTS and the Delphi system had nothing to do with the problem.  He simply changed the front plug.    we still have some timing being pulled, but they appear to be in open loop areas. I think this test that Keith did backs up what Bob (FLTRI) has been saying for quite a while regarding how important the plugs are in the knock retard function.  In this case, Keith was using an HD plug, but it was still adding "noise" into the system.   Keith said that both plugs were gapped to ~ .040", so gap doesn't seem to be the issue. 

Thankyouthankyouthankyou!

I've been chasing explosions in the front cylinder only between 2250-2750 and 60kPa-75kPa.  I keep pulling timing and it's not going away.  I read this post yesterday and figured I had nothing to lose by trying new plugs.  The old ones looked ok, but I was getting tired of chasing my tail.

What a difference!  Looks like I'll be able to add more timing back in there.

[cts1950]

What is a test bed? Doesn't it have to be a working model of the engine under test? I could see that the manufactures would send motors to be tested expecting that they would not get back one that could ever be used in the trade because of all the special machine work necessary to install the probes. Would not every combination of production motor go through the same tests? I would guess that the way the motor would react also would change with the dynamic load it is subjected to, example a light weight Dyna vs. a heavy weight Ultra. Are the exhaust systems also submitted with the engines (test bed) because they are part of the package.

[Rider57]

What is a test bed? Doesn't it have to be a working model of the engine under test? I could see that the manufactures would send motors to be tested expecting that they would not get back one that could ever be used in the trade because of all the special machine work necessary to install the probes. Would not every combination of production motor go through the same tests? I would guess that the way the motor would react also would change with the dynamic load it is subjected to, example a light weight Dyna vs. a heavy weight Ultra. Are the exhaust systems also submitted with the engines (test bed) because they are part of the package.

A test bed is any device made or constructed for one specific purpose. In this case the test bed was for gaseous ionization detection from what I have been told.
As far as the engine testing, that is exactly hat my division did. Every engine submitted is returned.
They all go through the same protocol in testing. Nothing is added to the engine as it must pass the test as it is presented. Just like you get it off the show room floor.

[Don D]

Yeah I would like to see if the MOCO has a map for the Hurricane. I would like to see that one.
In my minds eye I can't imagine the expected values and the timing of the ION sensing would be the same for all the motors / base maps. I know this is not user adjustable currently.
If you get a chance take a 110 head (huricane more extreme example) and look at the edge of the intake valve and where that is in relation to the spark plug tip. Consider even though the ION voltage signal is not triggered at maximum piston demand flow / intake there has to be much more turbulence than a stock bathtub chamber with smaller valve. How does the OEM deal with that? Aren't these critical settings? Why should they not surface in the GUI of the tuning program? Call them "timing aid" or something who cares.
I would be perfectly happy with an answer like these are not settings that can't be adjusted as they are written to OS but my intuitition tells me otherwise. I know the OEM calibrates these settings in the base map and I would think the aftermarket could make some scientific predictions of the effects added compression and added overlap open pipes will have. After all the voltage sent out during the ION sequence is expecting stock values, right?, these are no longer stock motors and lots of things contribute to the change in the dynamic environment of the combustion chamber.

[cts1950]

For what it is worth I found a there was a change in the coil P/N 2007 with the 96" engine. The original P/N for 2001-2006 is 31743-01 the newer 2007 > is 31656-07. I have not been able to sleuth out if there are newer versions. I would suspect the ion sense may be a better match for a larger bore engine than one that was built for a 88" motor. That is guess work on my part If any one has any info on other coil part #s it could help with the ion sense problems some of us are having.

[mayor]

For what it is worth I found a there was a change in the coil P/N 2007 with the 96" engine. The original P/N for 2001-2006 is 31743-01 the newer 2007 > is 31656-07.

2009 touring is 31696-07A, which is what I had come up on a microfiche search for 2007 touring too (although, my 2007 touring parts book states 31743-01).  My '07 SE3 Road King parts book lists 31743-01.  I don't think that a new part number is really much of an indication that the coil itself is different, since the new part number could be due to a physical shape change to account for the mounting arrangement specific to the bike. The intersting thing is the difference in part number that I have in print on my '07 parts book compared to the the on-line microfiche part number...but it could be due to a new supplier or it could have been a data entry error.  From a microfiche search, the '11 tourings use the same part number for the coil 31696-07A.   

[FLTRI]

Generally speaking:
If the base part number is the same with a new letter on the end it is usually the same part with a minor change...could be material or functional improvement...possibly just a vendor change.

Normally a new letter retrofits whereas if the base part number changes it does not.

If the base part number changes it usually indicates a new part design...for whatever reason(s).

Bob

[hrdtail78]

Isn't that around the time they went to a different spark plug wire connector on the coil side?

[FLTRI]

Isn't that around the time they went to a different spark plug wire connector on the coil side?

That would call for a different part number for sure. 
Bob

[timtoolman]

arent the coils in two different locations/ mounted different  hence different part number?   2007 2008 2009?  Im just asking??  Isnt the 07 coil under tank  and 09 under battery?  2008  i think its under tank too.

[mayor]

arent the coils in two different locations/ mounted different  hence different part number?   

I think the clever guy on post #156 may have already suggested that.   

[HogMike]

arent the coils in two different locations/ mounted different  hence different part number?   

I think the clever guy on post #156 may have already suggested that.   

??
We have one here?

[timtoolman]

Mustve missed that reply bulls creek slacker