Ion knock detection sensitivity

[Rider57]

It's a test bed, not an engine. I used one when I was with the EPA. Basically it is a combustion chamber with calibrated sensors and plasma detection probes. The instant the fuel ignites there is a "flash" of plasma that gets generated. The timing of the fuel burn in relation to the duration of the plasma flash can be used to quantify the amount of fuel that causes detonation. That flash results in ionization that
can be measured by conductivity within the spent fuel (exhausted gasses).

Can then  this conductivity within the spent fuel also be related to the amount of EGR. Hence, greater EGR resulting in greater false knock, or even actual knock for that matter?

pappy

That's really a question for a scientist, but it is the ionization that gets measured. I would believe the answer would be no to your EGR effect.

[05Train]

Keith made a good discovery with his problem with the knock retard.  he made two data runs today, here's the first:

all those brown vertical lines is where the adaptive knock retard pulled timing on the front.

he made one change, and here was his next data recording:

that change had nothing to do with the tuning program, so TTS and the Delphi system had nothing to do with the problem.  He simply changed the front plug.    we still have some timing being pulled, but they appear to be in open loop areas. I think this test that Keith did backs up what Bob (FLTRI) has been saying for quite a while regarding how important the plugs are in the knock retard function.  In this case, Keith was using an HD plug, but it was still adding "noise" into the system.   Keith said that both plugs were gapped to ~ .040", so gap doesn't seem to be the issue. 

Thankyouthankyouthankyou!

I've been chasing explosions in the front cylinder only between 2250-2750 and 60kPa-75kPa.  I keep pulling timing and it's not going away.  I read this post yesterday and figured I had nothing to lose by trying new plugs.  The old ones looked ok, but I was getting tired of chasing my tail.

What a difference!  Looks like I'll be able to add more timing back in there.

[cts1950]

What is a test bed? Doesn't it have to be a working model of the engine under test? I could see that the manufactures would send motors to be tested expecting that they would not get back one that could ever be used in the trade because of all the special machine work necessary to install the probes. Would not every combination of production motor go through the same tests? I would guess that the way the motor would react also would change with the dynamic load it is subjected to, example a light weight Dyna vs. a heavy weight Ultra. Are the exhaust systems also submitted with the engines (test bed) because they are part of the package.

[Rider57]

What is a test bed? Doesn't it have to be a working model of the engine under test? I could see that the manufactures would send motors to be tested expecting that they would not get back one that could ever be used in the trade because of all the special machine work necessary to install the probes. Would not every combination of production motor go through the same tests? I would guess that the way the motor would react also would change with the dynamic load it is subjected to, example a light weight Dyna vs. a heavy weight Ultra. Are the exhaust systems also submitted with the engines (test bed) because they are part of the package.

A test bed is any device made or constructed for one specific purpose. In this case the test bed was for gaseous ionization detection from what I have been told.
As far as the engine testing, that is exactly hat my division did. Every engine submitted is returned.
They all go through the same protocol in testing. Nothing is added to the engine as it must pass the test as it is presented. Just like you get it off the show room floor.

[Don D]

Yeah I would like to see if the MOCO has a map for the Hurricane. I would like to see that one.
In my minds eye I can't imagine the expected values and the timing of the ION sensing would be the same for all the motors / base maps. I know this is not user adjustable currently.
If you get a chance take a 110 head (huricane more extreme example) and look at the edge of the intake valve and where that is in relation to the spark plug tip. Consider even though the ION voltage signal is not triggered at maximum piston demand flow / intake there has to be much more turbulence than a stock bathtub chamber with smaller valve. How does the OEM deal with that? Aren't these critical settings? Why should they not surface in the GUI of the tuning program? Call them "timing aid" or something who cares.
I would be perfectly happy with an answer like these are not settings that can't be adjusted as they are written to OS but my intuitition tells me otherwise. I know the OEM calibrates these settings in the base map and I would think the aftermarket could make some scientific predictions of the effects added compression and added overlap open pipes will have. After all the voltage sent out during the ION sequence is expecting stock values, right?, these are no longer stock motors and lots of things contribute to the change in the dynamic environment of the combustion chamber.

[cts1950]

For what it is worth I found a there was a change in the coil P/N 2007 with the 96" engine. The original P/N for 2001-2006 is 31743-01 the newer 2007 > is 31656-07. I have not been able to sleuth out if there are newer versions. I would suspect the ion sense may be a better match for a larger bore engine than one that was built for a 88" motor. That is guess work on my part If any one has any info on other coil part #s it could help with the ion sense problems some of us are having.

[mayor]

For what it is worth I found a there was a change in the coil P/N 2007 with the 96" engine. The original P/N for 2001-2006 is 31743-01 the newer 2007 > is 31656-07.

2009 touring is 31696-07A, which is what I had come up on a microfiche search for 2007 touring too (although, my 2007 touring parts book states 31743-01).  My '07 SE3 Road King parts book lists 31743-01.  I don't think that a new part number is really much of an indication that the coil itself is different, since the new part number could be due to a physical shape change to account for the mounting arrangement specific to the bike. The intersting thing is the difference in part number that I have in print on my '07 parts book compared to the the on-line microfiche part number...but it could be due to a new supplier or it could have been a data entry error.  From a microfiche search, the '11 tourings use the same part number for the coil 31696-07A.   

[FLTRI]

Generally speaking:
If the base part number is the same with a new letter on the end it is usually the same part with a minor change...could be material or functional improvement...possibly just a vendor change.

Normally a new letter retrofits whereas if the base part number changes it does not.

If the base part number changes it usually indicates a new part design...for whatever reason(s).

Bob

[hrdtail78]

Isn't that around the time they went to a different spark plug wire connector on the coil side?

[FLTRI]

Isn't that around the time they went to a different spark plug wire connector on the coil side?

That would call for a different part number for sure. 
Bob

[timtoolman]

arent the coils in two different locations/ mounted different  hence different part number?   2007 2008 2009?  Im just asking??  Isnt the 07 coil under tank  and 09 under battery?  2008  i think its under tank too.

[mayor]

arent the coils in two different locations/ mounted different  hence different part number?   

I think the clever guy on post #156 may have already suggested that.   

[HogMike]

arent the coils in two different locations/ mounted different  hence different part number?   

I think the clever guy on post #156 may have already suggested that.   

??
We have one here?

[timtoolman]

Mustve missed that reply bulls creek slacker