which cam for 2 up riding

[cantho870]

95 softail springer. s&s carb  which is a better cam ev27 or crane 316-2b.

[darrelbarrows]

I was wondering the same thing and when i talked to my indy he actually recommened the crane fireball 310. He told me to get it with out the gear and instal my cam gear on it..He said without bumping the compression to 9.5 to 1 the ev27 would not give me what i wanted.  Hope this helps confuse you more..lol

[ClassicRider2002]

I of course do not know your riding style or your riding enviornment.......but since you are asking about CAMS, I would spend some time analyizing this one this is an article I recently read:

EV13

The EV13 is pretty much out of breath by 5200-5500 RPM, so it's a a stump puller, yes, but that's generally what is needed for a bagger. At 70 MPH you're probably only turning 3000 RPM, so if you want passing power at that speed, you want something that's developing some torque around that RPM--which is not an EV27 or EV46.

Btw. When you accelerate away from a stop, most of the time you don't exceed 3500 RPM, so you want something that will feel strong below that. When you're cruising through town, you're ptobably turning 2000 RPM if that, so you want something that will pull down there in order to ride comfortably.

For guys who are not too familair with choosing cams, I have one piece of real good advice--- be real honest about how you ride.
Think real honestly about what kind of performance you're after and how you really ride your bike. At what speed/RPM range do you spend most of your riding time?  Is maximizing acceleration most important to you, or two-up riding. How much money will you spend on that bike to make it what you want. Just how many and what types of compromiises are you willing to make?

"More power" usually means more torque higher in the RPM range, and relatively speaking, less down low. Unfortunately, "down low" is where you do almost all of your riding. From dead stop to highway cruising, you probably rarely exceed 3500 RPM. Unless you intend to emphasize quarter-mile type performance, down low is where you want to put your emphasis.  Fact is, almost all of the common modificatioins you see on bikes are intended to increase performance higher in the rev range rather than lower, because that is where horsepower is made. But it ain't horsepower you're (usually) after on the street. It's low-end torque.

Air cleaner changes, pipes, ignitions, cams... All emphasize higher RPM to some degree. You'd be surprised just how much even a simple change such as that SE air cleaner and those V&H pipes you have will move your torque peak higher the RPM range. This is where the real art of component selection and modification comes in: how to increase torque in the usable RPM range?

Let's assume that that you rarely drag race, ride two-up some, do not want to hurt reliability, and rarely exceed 65-75 MPH on the highway. That describes most of us, doesn't it? Ideally, that's a bike that makes max trorque around 3000 RPM, so our objective is to make as much torque as we can at that point and still satisfy our other objectives. What other objectives? Well, we have to have louder pipes that we think look good, and we have to be able to tell our friends that we've modified the engine, don't we? Can't have them thinking we're not cool. ;-) Fact is, a stock bike would probably give us the best performance in the range in which we ride, but we can't leave it stock, so our goal must be to choose parts which will at least keep--and ideally enhance--that type of performance, yet still give is the appearance and good looks we want.


Q. What's more important, high torque or high horsepower?
A. You will often hear or read about bottom, mid-range and top end power. Most Harleys idle around 1,000 RPM and after releasing the clutch nobody ever finds themselves riding below 1,500 RPM. Hot rodded street Harleys stop making power at 6,000 RPM, so we have an operating range of 4,500 RPM. We can break this down to bottom being 1,500 to 3.000 RPM, mid-range being 3,000 to 4,500 RPM and top end being 4,500 to 6,000 RPM.

If you watch your tachometers while riding, you will have to agree that most street riding is done between 2,000 and 3,500 RPM with semi aggressive shifting done in the 4 to 5,000 RPM range. It is for these reasons that we prefer high torque to high horsepower. Torque is built in the low and mid-range, while horsepower is produced in the top end range. We prefer not to compromise torque for horsepower.

Another Article Excerpt by William Denish:

Optimizing Your Harley's Engine Efficiency
Making Heat And Controlling Cylinder Pressure Are Secrets To Making Big Power

For a well-running V-Twin engine, ideally the corrected compression ratio should be no less than 9.0:1. Experience has shown that with an optimized combustion chamber, a Twin Cam or Evo Big Twin engine running on 92-octane gas can support between 9.0:1 and 9.5:1 corrected compression ratio (calculated at 0.053 in. tappet lift) before encountering detonation. Therefore, to maximize performance with pump gas, it is important to design an engine having about a 9.2:1 corrected compression. However, keep in mind that many factors, such as ambient temperature, barometric pressure, altitude, humidity, dual spark plugs, gearing, and total bike weight can affect an engine's actual detonation limit. With dual spark plugs and optimum conditions, the limit can be as high as 9.5:1. But overall, 9.2:1 corrected compression is a reasonable guideline to use.

The most important points to take away from this discussion are not a specific corrected compression ratio to use, but the concept of corrected compression and a general range to shoot for when using pump gas.

The average person buying a set of heads or porting job makes the assumption that bigger is better.  If you ride a heavy bike like a Road King or always ride two up, IMHO more emphasis should be placed on having the engine produce good low end torque.  The majority of virtually any Harley motor's life is spent in the mid-portion of its rpm limits, between 2000 and 4000 rpm. At open-road cruising speeds, that range is more like 2500 to 3500 rpm. With current Big Twin gearing, top gear at 2500 rpm returns a road speed of 55 mph and 3500 delivers 84 mph.  Even when accelerating to cruising speed, few of us use more than 4000 - 4500 rpm as a shift point. Very seldom, in day-to-day use, do our engines get near 5000 rpm, let alone 6000.

Some Additional Random Thoughts:

Corrected Compression should be:
a.  William Denish~~~For a well-running V-Twin engine, ideally the corrected compression ratio should be no less than 9.0:1.

b.  To maximize performance with pump gas, it is important to design an engine having about a 9.2:1 corrected compression. is a reasonable guideline to use.

c.   A motor with a well designed cylinder head and good cylinder mixture     turbulence on 92-octane pump gas can safely handle up to a maximum of 9.2:1 corrected compression. Pushing it past that ratio can lead to detonation and other bad things.

d.  If only 87-89-octane gas is available, stay on the safe side and keep the corrected compression at or just below 9.0:1. Good safe results are to keep the CCR between 8.8:1 to 9.0:1.

e.  From the book - How to Build a Harley-Davidson Torque Monster by Bill Rook~~~For performance work (with a good combustion chamber design), to make good power and low-end torque you should run a corrected compression ratio on pump gas of no less than 8.8:1 and no more than 9.2:1 if using 92 octane pump gas.

f.   Long duration, late closing cam designs are necessary to drag the last bit of power out of an engine. Unfortunately, these same cams can perform poorly under more normal riding conditions. In the quest for maximum power output, many-too-many Harley owners choose a late closing, high-rpm cam for their engine. The problem with such choices is that the engine seldom spends time in the rpm range favored by such cams.

g.  The majority of virtually any Harley motor's life is spent in the mid-portion of its rpm limits, between 2000 and 4000 rpm. At open-road cruising speeds, that range is more like 2500 to 3500 rpm. With current Twin Cam gearing, top gear at 2331 rpm returns a road speed of 55 mph and 3500 delivers 85 mph. Riders sometimes "putt" around at 2000 or less.  Even when accelerating to cruising speed, few of us use more than 4000 - 4500 rpm as a shift point. Very seldom, in day-to-day use, do our engines get near 5000 rpm, let alone 6000.. Even the mildest of Harley-Davidson's aftermarket cams (Evo or Twin Cam) do their best work above 3000 rpm. At 2000, the majority of these cams seldom perform significantly better than stock cam(s)..

h.   In the real world it's the rate of acceleration that wins races, not peak horsepower. Torque is the most important element of the equation and if you can't produce torque in the lower rpm ranges it will take forever to get to the upper rpm ranges where the dyno junkies worship the "god" of peak horsepower. Every time you grab the next gear your rpms fall and you have to climb that elusive mountain to get back to those so damn important peak power readings. The rate of acceleration from one point to the next is how we judge a vehicle's performance, not how much peak horsepower it makes. The right question isn't peak horsepower but is the search for maximum torque in the rpm band that produces the greatest transient acceleration.

Regards,

"Classic"

[gofastmoose]

I have 1989 FLHTC
I have SE heads,Andrews EV13 cam, Mikuni HSR42,K&N air filter, stock exhaust with mufflers drilled out.
I used to have EV27 cam, Vance Hines Long Shots. It was fast.
I find the EV13 a lot nicer to ride 2up. The torque is where I want it
I have no trouble keeping up with the newer  bike.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Have a good valve job done, along with a .060" re-surface, and install a Wood 6 cam.
You'll impress yourself.

[ClassicRider2002]

V-Twin Tech with Joe
Joe Minton
American Rider 

Interesting Q/A:

Q I have a 2006 Ultra Classic with 25,000 miles. Unfortunately I had the Screaminââ,¬â,,¢ Eagle 95-inch conversion done before taking delivery from the dealer. I could have had your conversion done at a lower cost with better results. In an effort to get some extra midrange torque, Iââ,¬â,,¢m going to change the cams. Should I use the Andrews TW21 with the rest of the SE kit that I already have to achieve my goal?

By the way, I have the stock header pipe with Rinehart Slip-On Mufflers and the Harley Race Tuner installed. Do you think installing SE or any performance heads will do anything for me in the low end or midrange with the rest of this configuration?

D. Miller
Foxboro, Massachusetts

A I strongly recommend the Andrews TW21 cam set. It begins to make more useful power at a lower engine speed than any other Andrews offering. It is an excellent match for the needs of a touring bike. The Andrews EV13 or 21 cams are the only Andrews cams I recommend for touring engines. Intake-valve closing angles determine the rpm at which an engine begins to do its most useful work. These cams feature early intake-valve closing angles and have proven themselves in the field.
In my testing, the best midrange slip-on mufflers available are those produced by SuperTrapp, under the Kerker name, specifically, the ones sold for use with the Mikuni carburetor. They feature the performance baffle. These mufflers make more mid-rpm power than any others we have tested. The design goes back to research done by the British around 1911.

Ported heads, SE or otherwise, have no discernable effect below 5,000 rpm. They would be a waste of money.

Regards,

"Classic"

[Dogbone45ACP]

The Andrews EV13 is a good bagger cam. I ran one in my 89 for many years.

[crazylore]

Im running an EV13 cam in a 96 Fatboy...straight shotgun pipes and hypercharger...... with a lot of 2up riding and Im happy with it...pulls strong in lower gears and more power in midrange and topend...suits my riding style fine....did put a Barrnet extra plate clutch with stock spring in...might want to consider clutch if you do alot of mountain riding

[gaillarry]

A riding buddy has a VThunder EVL 2000 in his 89 bagger and loves it.  Is there a chart that shows how different cams compare to each other.   I think the EVL 2000 is close to an EV 13??

[gaillarry]

Thanks for the chart but I'm still can't figure out if the EVL 2000 is close to an Andrews 13, 23 or 27 ??

[mark98012]

Fireball 316-2B is a good cam BUT really noisey and to get the most out of it you need headwork and higher compression. I replaced mine (because of noise) with a EV-27, it's a good all around cam but I'm sure there are better ones for Low-Mid grunt. I lost a considerable amount of power but the noise drove me nuts. I would look at V-Thunder (maybe 3010), they're built to be quiet, just my 2 cents.

Mark

[apendejo]

The Crane 300-2b is a good heavy bike 2-up cam. Plenty of roll on power at freeway speeds. Works great on a relatively stock bike with just A/C and pipes.
AP

[JohnS_Rosamond]

I used to suggest the Crane 310, but then Crane started having cam bearing end problems (about 10 years ago).  The cam that I usually suggest is the V-thunder EVL-3010 for two up or trailer towing.  It's quiet and I have not seen a cam bearing end failures (when used with the Torrington bearing and not the INA caged bearing).  Andrews is a very good name, but I am not so familiar with their range of cams anymore.  I know a few who run the Ev-27.  Now, I know there are some who will snicker, but this "other" cam is very mild, quiet and will allow lifters a longer life than other cams - the late model OEM 50 state cam that Harley put in big twins 1995 - 1999.  Obviously the OE Harley cam will also be the lowest power cam.
John S,

[darrelbarrows]

Thats what my indy also told me, but he said they fixed the problem with the bearing side failure. 

[JohnS_Rosamond]

Good to know.  Thanks.

[darrelbarrows]

no problem

[apendejo]

This is the end of an old Crane 300-2b cam with an INA bearing. I did not know that the cams were soft, I thought it was due to the bearing. But.... after examining the bearing it seemed to be relatively fine. I installled this cam in early '94 on my then new FXDL and it started making a grating noise after a few thousand miles.
I pulled the cam and bearing and this is what I found.
Then all of a sudden there was a big brouhaha about the INA bearings so I figured that must be it. I replaced that cam with another just like it and a torrington bearing. I rode another 50k trouble free miles before trying the EV-27 cam. Then I sold the bike.
AP

[BigE1340]

The EV-27 is a wimpy ass cam and very noisey.Not much better than stock.The lift is close to stock and the long duration is very prone to spark knock when you bump the compression up above 9.5 to 1. Woods 6 is much better just check your valve spring clearance and make sure your heads are set up right,you won't be dissapointed....

[gaillarry]

The EV-27 is a wimpy ass cam and very noisey.Not much better than stock.The lift is close to stock and the long duration is very prone to spark knock when you bump the compression up above 9.5 to 1. Woods 6 is much better just check your valve spring clearance and make sure your heads are set up right,you won't be dissapointed....

From what I've read on this forum the EV 27 is one of the most popular cams !!  I just bought one to replace my Thunder EVL 2000 (which is close to stock)

[KB]

Got a '91 FLHTCU that is slowly being rebuilt. Just replaced the lifter and EV13 with a Fireball 316B. Goes like a startled cat. Bit lumpy and vibrates a little more (also replaced the swingarm mounts so it's a little stiffer there too). Have to say that it pulls from any revs and probably has less power band that the EV13. All in all so far seems a very good choice.

[fxr4mikey]

Have a good valve job done, along with a .060" re-surface, and install a Wood 6 cam.
You'll impress yourself.

[fxr4mikey]

V-Twin Tech with Joe
Joe Minton
American Rider 

Interesting Q/A:

Q I have a 2006 Ultra Classic with 25,000 miles. Unfortunately I had the Screaminââ,¬â,,¢ Eagle 95-inch conversion done before taking delivery from the dealer. I could have had your conversion done at a lower cost with better results. In an effort to get some extra midrange torque, Iââ,¬â,,¢m going to change the cams. Should I use the Andrews TW21 with the rest of the SE kit that I already have to achieve my goal?

By the way, I have the stock header pipe with Rinehart Slip-On Mufflers and the Harley Race Tuner installed. Do you think installing SE or any performance heads will do anything for me in the low end or midrange with the rest of this configuration?

D. Miller
Foxboro, Massachusetts

A I strongly recommend the Andrews TW21 cam set. It begins to make more useful power at a lower engine speed than any other Andrews offering. It is an excellent match for the needs of a touring bike. The Andrews EV13 or 21 cams are the only Andrews cams I recommend for touring engines. Intake-valve closing angles determine the rpm at which an engine begins to do its most useful work. These cams feature early intake-valve closing angles and have proven themselves in the field.
In my testing, the best midrange slip-on mufflers available are those produced by SuperTrapp, under the Kerker name, specifically, the ones sold for use with the Mikuni carburetor. They feature the performance baffle. These mufflers make more mid-rpm power than any others we have tested. The design goes back to research done by the British around 1911.

Ported heads, SE or otherwise, have no discernable effect below 5,000 rpm. They would be a waste of money.

Regards,

"Classic"

well, I'm no mechanic ... but I think that an 'OPEN' statement like that should be 'qualified'
just to 'state' that is incorrect ....... SE heads changes the compression ratio ..... take for an example the 80" EVO.  Stock the static CR is 8.27:1 (combustion chamber is 83cc's) ... switch to SE heads (72 cc's) and you bump the CR to 9.26:1 ..... so I would have to say that you would have a discernible difference with those heads, even just OFF IDLE ..... I wonder how that statement was supposed to be 'qualified'  ??

is he just talking about 'PORTED' heads ?  or Heads in general  

[Princess Butt]

I have a 1997 Road King I ride every day for commuter duty. Right now, I'm using the Crane Fireball 300 cam, it seems to pull really nice in the lower rpm ranges.

Once upon a time, about 7 years ago, I swapped the stock cam for the Crane 316. It wasn't a bad cam but I found when riding two up and just putting along, it seemed to be a bit rough. When I would push it a little bit, that bike would just sing, it ran like it should. However, I don't normally ride that way, especially two up.

If you're a mellow type of rider and riding two up, you're going to find the Crane 316 a bit overkill. It's always better to put in too small of a cam than too large of a cam.

BnEUC

[KB]

I have a 1997 Road King I ride every day for commuter duty. Right now, I'm using the Crane Fireball 300 cam, it seems to pull really nice in the lower rpm ranges.

Once upon a time, about 7 years ago, I swapped the stock cam for the Crane 316. It wasn't a bad cam but I found when riding two up and just putting along, it seemed to be a bit rough. When I would push it a little bit, that bike would just sing, it ran like it should. However, I don't normally ride that way, especially two up.

If you're a mellow type of rider and riding two up, you're going to find the Crane 316 a bit overkill. It's always better to put in too small of a cam than too large of a cam.

BnEUC

7 years ago in a long time. Just put a Fireball 316B in the 91 FLHTCU and love it! Pulls well through all rev range, can pick the "power band" when the torque curve kicks in at about 2500 - just about 60mph so it is dialled in just right with a 2 into 1 supertrap and 18 plates. Had an EV13 in and while good was a bit breathless, particularly 2 up. The Fireball accelerates quite nicely 2 up for overtaking and solo is very satisfying without being stupid :-). While it does vibrate more I'm happy to put up with that, still less that the mates softie..........