Help! 8/20/2011: MORE help with DTT settings please.

[02roadcling]

I have a new DTT that does not have a map. Also I do not have the software or cables for that and I need help adjusting the dials. I read the general directions but am lousy in this area. I ride pretty hard and solo mostly. Help me out please.
Thanks,
cling

At sea level north of Seattle. 92 octane gas is all it will run on.
Currently have been running the SE non-adjustable ign with the -10 and 6200 rev part # 31778-01B.

2002 FLHR
CV40 Carb, 48 slow, Sporty needle, 195 main (see note at bottom)
SE K&N
98" GMR kit, CP pistons .008 down in the hole
SBC Scottsman heads 82cc
Cometic .030
SE204 cams
SE coil
S&S .100 travel limiters
SE adjustable pushrods
Thunderheader


NOTE: when I had this dyno run it had the 46 slow and stock main in the carb, upgraded since then. I didn't get a tune, just had a couple runs for a fundraiser they had last year to see how it was. I know there is more to be had.

Big Boys calc says 9.76 comp and 9.19 corrected with 190.3 CCC



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[mayor]

I'd try initial 4 slope 2, and go from there.   

[02roadcling]

Thanks and ok I will start there.

Now..... how do I go from there?  What would make me change a setting?

cling

[mayor]

What you're going to want to do is pay attention to see if you get and ping at various rpm's and load (guessing of course at map), and adjust the knobs to reduce the timing in affected areas without reducing too much in unaffected areas. You also want to pay attention to vibrations, and try to adjust to a smooth running engine.  When you pull up the software, you can adjust the knobs on there and it will give you an idea of how the timing curves look.  With as much ccp as you're running, you don't want steep curves.

[02roadcling]

Ok thanks, but I don't have the software or cable pkg. I'm too cheap, lol.
Also I should mention that my bike runs like crap when I used the stock module if that helps any.... 

cling

[mayor]

regardless of wether you have the cables or not, being able to see what the timing values are will help you when you adjusting the knobs. I think you can download the softaware for free here: http://www.daytona-twintec.com/download/PC_Link_TC88/PC_Link_TC88.htm

yea, I figured stock was over advanced for your set up. The settings I recommended is similar to a -5 module.  You can also try settings 3 initial 3 slope, and 1 initial 4 slope. 

here's what 4, 2 looks like:


here's what 3, 3 looks like:


here's what 1, 4 looks like:


each knob adjusts the timing just a touch differently, so this should give you an idea of what areas are working good for you and what areas need tweaked once you start riding. The top of the chart is your cruise timing and the bottom is your heavy wide open throttle. If you hear ping anywhere, you loosing power there so you need to retard the timing in that area. 

I have them ranked in rates of advance (4,2 being the most, and 1,4 being the least of the three).  My advice is try all three settings, and then make decisions from there to see which direction to go.  This should get you started, you'll need to let the bike tell you where to go from here. 

[02roadcling]

Thanks again Mayor! I slept in until 8 today so I need a pot of and then I'll start trying it.

cling
EDIT and Update for those following this: Need to wait until tomorrow. I ended up going 125 miles to my Great Uncles funeral. I did take my bike but left it as is because I was already late and didn't want to screw around in the Seattle area.

[02roadcling]

  I've tried them all and can't tell the difference.

What is a good safe setting for my bike until I can get a real tune? I want to ride a few hours tomorrow.

Thanks,
cling

[mayor]

I've tried them all and can't tell the difference.

I'm not surprised, there isn't much difference between the maps. 

What is a good safe setting for my bike until I can get a real tune? I want to ride a few hours tomorrow.

no one can tell you what's safe over the internet, that will be up to what the bike is telling you. The wide open timing can be tested on  dyno for max power, but there's no way to ensure that the "anything less than wide open" areas is not over advanced on a carb bike.  I would suspect that as long as you do not have audible ping, the timing is likely fine with any of those maps.  I think 4,2 would be fine for you to try a day riding.  Just pay attention to details like load (gear selection and how rapid the twisting of the wrist was) and rpm range if you hear any ping.  This info will get used later to determine what areas might need lower timing values. 

What you need to do is fully test as many of the timing areas that you can to listen for audible ping.  If it pings anywhere, the timing needs to be reduced.  If no ping, then lets try advancing a little more. If you have fully tested each of the three maps (cruise in 5th, light roll-on, heavy roll-on, and wide open) and there was no issue with audible ping, then you should try a map with more advance at the upper side of the chart (16-18). Try 5 initial, slope 1 and then try 4 initial, slope 3. 

Here's what 5, 1 looks like:


Here's what 4, 3 looks like:


I would suspect that 4, 3 might be too advanced at wide open, so make sure you test that as best you can listening for audible ping.  Just keep in mind, just cause you don't hear it doesn't mean it isn't pinging...and advancing to the maximum before ping does not necassarily mean that you are running the most effecient.   

When you are riding, you want to pay attention to how the bike feels and how it sounds.  What you want to pay attention to is whether the bike is pinging at wide open and whether the bike pings at an roll on throttle ranges.  You also want to pay attention to whether the bike is running hot, running rough, or vibrating more than normal.  These are all indicator of what needs to be done with timing. The upper side of the scale (16-18 ) will be light load cruising, 20-26 will be heavy roll on in the higher gears, and the timing at 28-30 controls wide open.  The trick is to get all three areas dialed in with the dials.

[02roadcling]

Thanks again Mayor! I will definitely be getting a tune in the near future.

cling

[Don D]

Steve I have a cable to loan.
Is it time to decarbonze the heads and pistons & look at oil seals?

Mayor why aren't our EFI bikes running similar curves? this is a 2d map just the same as the Delph uses, why aren't the maps closer aligned? I would hink the requirements would be smilar, the builds and pipe are.

[mayor]

Mayor why aren't our EFI bikes running similar curves? this is a 2d map just the same as the Delph uses, why aren't the maps closer aligned? I would hink the requirements would be smilar, the builds and pipe are.

I think they're actually somewhat similar.  The real difference is DTT has the same setting for 54 kPa and lower, where the Delphi system has more adjustments for the lower MAP ranges.  Here's what I calculated the DTT values to represent in kPa:

MAP/RPM
16 (54.2 kPa )
18 (61kPa)
20 (67.7 kPa)
22 (74.5 kPa)
24 (81.3 kPa)
26 (88 kPa)
28 (94.8 kPa)
30 (101.6 kPa)

By looking at that, I would think that rows 28 and 30 should have the same values per rpm although it does not appear that DTT shares that opinion.   

My guess is the ION sensing will limit how rapid the curve rate is going to be on the Delphi system. The timing I'm running in my 96" efi is very similar to a 3,3 but with a more gradual slope from higher to lower MAP (and much less timing in the 24 and 26 rows at 2k and 2.5k).  Here's how mine would look as a DTT map:

[02roadcling]

Don,
Thanks for the cable offer but I can't seem to grasp this stuff anyway. My bike was rebuilt last summer so I hope its not carboned up yet.

Mayor,
Thanks for the tips again. I used 4 2.

I went to the Mission BC Raceway for the Top Fuel HD drags yesterday and took my nephew on the back. I did notice some pinging I didn't have before.

I'm going to just have it tuned real soon and then be a happy guy again. Wish I would have had it done sooner.

Thanks again guys!
cling

[mayor]

you will likely still need to tweak the roll on timing areas, even after a tune since checking carb timing in anything other than wide open is not easy on a dyno.  This is unless the tuner road tunes as well.

here's a chart that Blackhill's Ken made that helps explain how the DTT timing maps work:

The area that Ken has marked coasting, is your likely typical cruise ranges (16-18). I also think that MAP range 28 is also your wide open timing as well, along with MAP 30.   

do you remember where the ping occured with 4, 2?  was it with a heavy throttle, or was it during a light roll-on?  Try settings initial 3 slope 2, which will reduce the typical roll on areas.  Here's what 3, 2 looks like:


hang in there Cling, this looks trickier than it is.  The key is to pay attention to what the bike is telling you.  If you don't have to think about what the timing is doing, it's likely set right.   

[02roadcling]

>>> do you remember where the ping occured with 4, 2?  was it with a heavy throttle, or was it during a light roll-on?  Try settings initial 3 slope 2, which will reduce the typical roll on areas. <<<

Light roll on in 4th and 5th gear.

cling

[mayor]

starting at what rpm?

how does the cruising feel?

what about wide open?

[02roadcling]

45 mph in 4th for instance cruising those sweeping country roads where you don't go over 55.

It feels like somebody might be pulling me backwards.

Doesn't feel as snappy.

[Rusty Steel]

So... How's it going Cling? Still tuning? I'm trying to learn all I can on the DTT, as I'm getting ready to buy one. (I think)..

[02roadcling]

Been gone. I just returned from 2 weeks in sunny Palmdale, Cal visiting my kids and G-kids.

UPDATE:
I emailed Lee at JARZ Performance for his suggestion since they are just across the border from me and our climate is the same. For my build he suggested to enable multi-spark, initial 3, slope 4. Yesterday I finally got to ride about 50 miles and it runs good but I think it pings a little more than it did before at lower rpm. Today is their open house and you can get dyno runs for a donation to the Boys and Girls Club so I'm going to go there and see how my AFR and the rest is since a year ago and making some changes.

cling

[mayor]

sounds like a good plan (3,4).  if the afr looks good, see if you can slip them an extra $5 to do one pull with 2 clicks less slope (3,2) too. Just leave your side cover off, so the dyno guy can turn the knob. 

[02roadcling]

Side cover is already off  and r/s bag is back on to prevent my bike from looking too cool. 

cling

[mayor]

cling, take a thumb drive and have the dyno guy give you the winPep .drf run files. 

[02roadcling]

Thanks, in my pocket now.

[Don D]

Stop by and see me if you have the time, This is the starting map I would try

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[02roadcling]

Thanks Don. I might wander down there sometime soon, especially if I can't get happyized. Been wanting to meet you anyway.

cling

[02roadcling]

So.... my AFR is still super lean at wide open so I'm going to a .210 main jet.
Tomorrow I'm going back for a tune.
Don, I can't get that map to open and I even downloaded ArcReader 10.

cling

[mayor]

Don, I can't get that map to open and I even downloaded ArcReader 10.

you have to open it with the DTT software.

here's what Don posted:

Don adjusted the timing to account for lower rpm roll-on's, while keeping the cruise timing high enough for efficiency.  The only way to get those is with a custom map, since the knobs just can't make it happen.

cling, can you post your dyno sheet? did you get the run files?

[02roadcling]

Thanks Mayor. I told the guy I wanted the winPep .drf run files just as you suggested. When I opened my thumb at home there were just the dyno run pics like he already printed for me. I'll scan it and post in a few minutes.

cling

[02roadcling]

9-10-2011

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[02roadcling]

Well, I put in my new .210 jet and I had a .200 in there, not a .195 like I thought I had. I can still kind of remember that I didn't have my bifocals on that day and squinting.  No big deal, just letting those know who are following this.

cling

[Jeffd]

I wonder if your pipe is the issue.  Not familiar with the TH can they get the sniffer all the way up.  I wonder if you are getting a false reading.  your numbers look in line otherwise.

[mayor]

yea, I was wondering that too.  Hopefully the dyno shop has some jets around, and will switch out the main if they see a power drop with the 210 main. 

[CndUltra88]

I wonder if your pipe is the issue.  Not familiar with the TH can they get the sniffer all the way up.  I wonder if you are getting a false reading.  your numbers look in line otherwise.

The guys at Jarzz really are top notch!
Lee will get the sniffer in just the right spot, and he cant he will bore a hole in the header pipe ( where it is easily covered  by shields) and weld the hole up after as well.
Steve, you should have bought the cables with the DTT and you likely could be way ahead of from where you are right now.
It isnt about being thrifty (cheap) its about ease of use Dude !
Will watch your progress for amusement
Rob

[02roadcling]

Both tubes were shoved all the way in. You should have seen how fast the guy with the rag around his hand changed the tube back and forth on the ends coming out, lol.

cling

[mayor]

regardless of what the sniffed values reads, the engine output should determine whether the bike is happy.  If you loose power with the 210 main, then it's likely too big. My guess is the Jarzz tuners will follow that princapal as well.  Keep in mind though, you have a fairly broad window in regards to afr for max power though (around 12.8-13.8 ). Generally richer allows for longer sustained power since richer is cooler (meaning the bike can handle longer times at wide open...like during racing and such).  My guess is the 210 will be fine, but you won't know until the engine output gets tested.

[mayor]

alright, where's the sheet?   

[CndUltra88]

Well Mayor. I met cling at Jarzz today and he was grinning from ear to ear.
Did a quick ride down the Hwy 1 with him and then rode some back country to the Sumas border...
I wonder if they let him back into the country or they thought he was some sort of IA because he sure looked funny with that grin on his face.
Cling, where the hell are you, did they lock you up and not give you a phone call???
Rob

[mayor]

yea, I got a text from him on the final numbers about 4 hours ago...real nice.     I thought we'd see the chart by now.   

[02roadcling]

112.94 tq  and 96.25 hp 

Sorry guys, I ended up selling a car when I got back, then the new Survivor show and pizza
Now I'm beat but will scan and post my info in the morning. I had an absolute blast during the whole ordeal and thankyou Rob for keeping me company!

cling

[mayor]

that's quite an improvement, congrats.     I'll be curious to see which made the biggest difference, the timing or the fuel.  I wouldn't doubt both.   

[02roadcling]

We started at 3,3 and did the fuel first. We ended up installing a .220 main to get both cylinders evened out as best as possible. It is still lean at about 4000 rpm but I'm hoping the NOKK needle will cure that. If not then a KT1 or probably 2 will be needed. This bike was thirsty. The baffle tab bending and jet brought the tq up to 108 STD.
Then we started playing with the timing and ended up at 3,4 just as Lee the owner had suggested to me to start with.
The computer didn't register the run as a 3,4 but a previous run at 2,5 for some reason so that is why it is written over in ink pen.
All runs were in 5th gear.
Here is the STD run. I also have the SAE run but its in bitmap form and renaming it jpg didn't change it so its too big even tho I've resized it small. 

cling, overall I'm 


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[Jeffd]

nice indeed. 

[mayor]

that's a sweet looking curve!     congrats!      no one can say that has a thunderheader dip in it.  if you want, send me the SAE sheet and I'll adjust it so you can post. 

now that you have the bigger main, run that timing setting and see if you still get ping.  I'd also suggest waiting until after you install the NOKK to decide to remove timing anywhere. 

[02roadcling]

Thanks mayor! I'll do that right now.

[mayor]

here's the SAE version:


coverted jpg should also be attached below

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[02roadcling]

  Thanks!

[Overcamber]

I'm following this as well..just curious did that larger main jet make all that difference in bringing your afr into line like that? trying to learn as quick as i can thx

[02roadcling]

Yes. Unbelievable but yes!

[mayor]

Here's what 3, 4 looks like:

ok, now you know what your engine likes in wide open throttle timing (bottom two rows, with majority handled by the bottom row). 

what settings was the previous run done with?

[02roadcling]

They only tried about 4 settings and could tell which way to go from there. The fuel was done at 3,3. I can't remember what the other setting was but there was a 2,5 before the 3,4 was the winner. They only gave me the run files off the last run.

cling

[CndUltra88]

Well Cling, looks like your not finished tinkering yet.
Hope you can feel the improvements and well worth the time and money invested.
Will watch and see what the changes to the needles will do for you as well.
I know my Ultra wont be able to keep up, as the Tortise said to the Hair " Slow and Steady wins the Race" LoL
Rob

[02roadcling]

I've always been too fast