Grinding from neutral to first gear

[silvercab996]

Hello all, first post on the new board.

This was posted in XL section as well.

Anyway '03 XL grinds severly when going from neutral to either 1st or 2nd. Most noticeably, when starting the bike in neutral, hot or cold then pulling in the clutch, which feels perfectly smooth and normal, then moving the shift lever to engage 1st gear there is a terrible amount of grinding going on as to make you reluctant to try to fully depress the lever for full engagement. Once in first gear all is fine, shifts up and down like normal. Same thing happens from neutral to second if the clutch lever is in the engaged position (out) while in neutral, then clutch pulled in and trying to engage 2nd it grinds.

The most obvious things I checked. Oil level is full and clean, Primary chain has about 5/8" free play, 1/8"-1/4" clutch lever free play, clutch engagement device and bearing are in good condition. I even pulled the trans expecting damaged engagement dogs or some visual signs of damage but everything looks clean and great. The oil was clean too without and metal. Visually the pawl assembly and all springs look good, I haven't disassembled the forks from the cam drum yet but so far everything looks good.

This is baffeling to say the least. I have not removed the clutch plates from the basket yet to check them out. Again it feels a little like you are trying to engage first gear while the clutch is not disengaging. But when assembled the disegagement/engagement felt smooth and predictable as far as lever feel.

Any trans experts out there?
TIA

[truck]

What works for me on my FLH is to pull in the clutch and count off five seconds then engage first gear.

[Ultrashovel]

Hello all, first post on the new board.

This was posted in XL section as well.

Anyway '03 XL grinds severly when going from neutral to either 1st or 2nd. Most noticeably, when starting the bike in neutral, hot or cold then pulling in the clutch, which feels perfectly smooth and normal, then moving the shift lever to engage 1st gear there is a terrible amount of grinding going on as to make you reluctant to try to fully depress the lever for full engagement. Once in first gear all is fine, shifts up and down like normal. Same thing happens from neutral to second if the clutch lever is in the engaged position (out) while in neutral, then clutch pulled in and trying to engage 2nd it grinds.

The most obvious things I checked. Oil level is full and clean, Primary chain has about 5/8" free play, 1/8"-1/4" clutch lever free play, clutch engagement device and bearing are in good condition. I even pulled the trans expecting damaged engagement dogs or some visual signs of damage but everything looks clean and great. The oil was clean too without and metal. Visually the pawl assembly and all springs look good, I haven't disassembled the forks from the cam drum yet but so far everything looks good.

This is baffeling to say the least. I have not removed the clutch plates from the basket yet to check them out. Again it feels a little like you are trying to engage first gear while the clutch is not disengaging. But when assembled the disegagement/engagement felt smooth and predictable as far as lever feel.

Any trans experts out there?
TIA

Welcome.

I'm not what I would call a transmission expert. I didn't even sleep at a Holiday Inn last night but I tend to think that you may have a difficulty with your cliutch. I would open the primary and, after removing the clutch plates, take a close look at the slots in the clutch basket and the tangs on the edges of the plates. These can get buggered up from use and if there are notches in the basket, the clutch will not release properly even though the adjustment is correct.

Before you pull the covers off, try this test:

When starting with a cold engine, first put the bike in second gear. With the clutch pulled in, move the bike forward and back enough to break the clutch plates loose. That should be your starting point.

Then start the engine and while letting it warm up, wait about a minute before taking off. During this period, pull in the clutch and hold it for a count of 10 (one-one thousand, two one thousand.......)  While counting, with clutch pulled in, blip the throttle several times to around 2K rpm.

If the bike engages normally after that procedure, you may be OK. Bear in mind that Harley-Davidson transmissions are somewhat akin to the transmission in a Model A ford. Up to the period of the six speeds, they didn't have any synchros in them to control the speed of the gears during engagement. Thus, they were what I call a "crash box". Most all Harleys will have a noisy first gear engagement with a noticeable clunk although they generally do not grind.

If after trying the count to 20, and making sure that your clutch is properly adjusted again, if it still grinds then it's got to be either the clutch or......(gulp) a bent fork. (Sure hope not)

The good news for you is that with a 2003, they still had the XL transmisison door in the left crankcase that was added in the KH flathead era in the 1950's IIRC. That makes it possible to remove the guts of the tranny without splitting the cases.

If you had a 2004 on up XL, it's double the work if there is a transmision problem because the door was removed in '04 when they went to a rubber-mounted XL. Don't ask me why. I once owned a 1953 KK (45 cu in flathead - the grandfather of the Sportster) I broke a tooth off of the main drive gear and I had to split the engine down all the way to install the part. That was not fun.

Good luck. Hope this helps.      

[Panzer]

Clutch freeplay: Adjust for 1/16-1/8 in.
Gap between ferrule and bracket.

This is right out of the shop manual for an "07"

I don't think that's your problem, but wouldn't hurt to put it in specs.

[silvercab996]

Thanks for your input.

A little more about this problem. This is something that is not inherent to the design of this trans that must be overcome by using certain techniques. I'm familiar with all that. I've built many, many crash boxes from Knucks, Pans, Shovels, and Ironhead Sportys too and pride myself in being able to make them shift buttery smooth. I've handled my share diagnosing 5 and 6 speed Big Twin issues too, built many from scratch as well.

I also had a hot rod Buell S1 for 12 years that shared the same trans that I'm having a problem with. I drag raced the Buell several times and could shift it lightning fast all the time and any time. Neutral to first was always as slick and fast, effortless and quiet as could be. Also on the Buell, I took out the trans when the bike was near new and removed all the lash from the shift shaft to make it shift more positively and precise.

So again, on the XL, it's start the bike, pull in the clutch and ease the shifter in first gear. Before the shift lever is depressed very far at all it starts to grind,your first reaction is to let the lever come back up to neutral. You try again and depress the lever while grinding all the way into first gear. When engaged the grinding immediately stops. Also after the initial engagement you can put it back into neutral and first to neutral a few times with no grinding. But turn it off and restart the motor in neutral and the grinding starts all over again.

Ideas???

[Ultrashovel]

It's posslbly one or more of the following:

1. Bent shifter fork.
2. Rounded shifter dogs.
3. Loose bushings and/or excessive end play on shafts.
4. Bad clutch basket.

It would help if we knew whether you bought the machine new and how many miles it has. Although you didn't abuse the transmission, it's possible that a previous owner did.

[silvercab996]

Bike is low mileage, stock, and clean.

As stated in my first post, engagement dogs are sharp and as new.

Visually the forks look fine, no deformity, excess wear, etc. I haven't removed the cotters, pins, and separated the forks from the drum yet, but I most likely will.

There is no end play or shimming to be done on this series of trans.

Like I said before, everything inside looks like new, no wear anywhere.

I have not removed the clutches from the shell yet, but will. From previous experience, I've seen no wear to the clutch tangs or dogs on this year series, but there could be a clutch plate sticking issue.

I'm hoping someone here has run across this problem before and could enlighten me to the problem.

Thanks again

[HIPPO]

Drag from the cold primary oil?

I start mine in 1st gear with the clutch disengaged first start in the morning.

[Phu Cat]

Wet clutches tend to stick when cold.  Ultrashovel is on it.  I don't mess around with starting the bike in gear, tho.  I start mine in neutral and let it warm up a little.  When You're ready to take off, pull the clutch all the way in, blip the throttle several times, snick into first gear and you're gone.  If the tranny went into gear without the usual crunch, everything's likely OK.

You have set up the clutch per the factory manual, haven't you?

You've come to the right place to learn about your bike.  I mistakenly thought I knew a little about scooters after having ridden for 25 years before finding this site.  I have since learned the others here know WAY more than I do.

PC

[tomp]

I have seen this on bikes many times. Ultrashovel is not as close as Hippo. It is caused by friction plate drag either due to them being cold, improper clutch adjustment or both. Typically, when it's harder than normal to diagnose - it's because there is more than one thing wrong.

-Did you pull the plates and restack at any point?
-go with as small amount of slack at clutch lever/ferrule as possible so the plates have plenty of slack. This fixes the problem most of the times
-You might have to go through your entire clutch assembly to find why it is "draggin" as something is not allowing the clutch plates enough slack.

[silvercab996]

Thanks for your input guys!

As stated in my first post, the problem is hot or cold, meaning the grinding happens even when the bike is hot and has been ridden several miles which should free up the clutch plates. Primary cover almost too hot to touch, shut off the bike, restart it in neutral, find first gear all the while grinding terribly with the clutch lever pulled in fully and clunk, in gear and grinding stopped. It grinds only when moving the shift lever until the engagement dogs are mated with the next gear.

[96dynabagger]

If the adjustment on the clutch is OK, I think you're gonna have to pull the
plates and see if they're warped.  Something's not letting go completely.

Figure it out fast, that trans is going to be showing some wear from that
grinding, if its all day long and not just cold.