TTS - 96" with 255 cams

[07heri]

I need some help on setting up a map for this configuration.  2007 Heritage, no 103 kit, stock 96.  Stage 1 (AN Big Sucker / Rinehart slipons) and SE255 cams.   I need to get this as close as possible until I can get it on a dyno. 

Should I run the 103 / 255 map?

Sould I run the 103 / 255 map and change the CI to 96?  What exactly happens to the map when ONLY the CI is changed? 

It looks like the 103 and 96 maps have different timing tables.  Which would be more suitable to a 96" with the 255 cams?

Like I said, eventually this will get put on a dyno but for right now I would like to get as close as possible out of the box.

[07heri]

wow not one response.  am i the only one that has put different cams in a stock 96"? 

[mayor]

I need to get this as close as possible until I can get it on a dyno. 

this is accomplished with vtuning what ever cal that you plan on running....(I know, you don't know that yet..see below)

Should I run the 103 / 255 map?

tuning a motorycle involves two variables, fuel (VE's, AE's, WE's, etc.) and timing.  Running a 103/255 map will likely involve adjustments to both.  Unless you have a pretty good handle on what you are doing, you might want to choose a different option. 

Sould I run the 103 / 255 map and change the CI to 96?  What exactly happens to the map when ONLY the CI is changed? 

the VE tables, plus AE and WE tables may need to be adjusted to the new displacement.....but read the last sentence of the previous answer.

It looks like the 103 and 96 maps have different timing tables.  Which would be more suitable to a 96" with the 255 cams?

it looks like CAA176-002 was designed for a 96" w/255's

[07heri]

I need to get this as close as possible until I can get it on a dyno. 

this is accomplished with vtuning what ever cal that you plan on running....(I know, you don't know that yet..see below)

Should I run the 103 / 255 map?

tuning a motorycle involves two variables, fuel (VE's, AE's, WE's, etc.) and timing.  Running a 103/255 map will likely involve adjustments to both.  Unless you have a pretty good handle on what you are doing, you might want to choose a different option. 

Sould I run the 103 / 255 map and change the CI to 96?  What exactly happens to the map when ONLY the CI is changed? 

the VE tables, plus AE and WE tables may need to be adjusted to the new displacement.....but read the last sentence of the previous answer.

It looks like the 103 and 96 maps have different timing tables.  Which would be more suitable to a 96" with the 255 cams?

it looks like CAA176-002 was designed for a 96" w/255's

Thanks Mayor.  I don't have a 2 into 1 but I'll give that map a try and see if it will get me by for now.  I really need to get this dyno'd.  I haven't had much luck with the V-Tunes.  The bike always seems to run worse even after 7 or 8 runs.  The tuners I've talked to say the bike will never run right with it being tuned to 14.6 because of the heat down here.  I'm going to give this TTS thing a little more time before I give up on it though.   

[WVULTRA]

Since Mayor is one of the most knowledgable on this forum, his advise is always top notch!   

If the CAA176 map doesn't feel right, IMO try the EPQ176 map!    Reduce the Engine Displacement to 96.7 in the Tuning Constants table and see how your bike feels/reacts.  See how the bike starts/idles while doing a few stationary Cam Data Recordings.  Take a close look at your MAP values and see if they're in the 30-36KPa range.

It never hurts to try different maps before starting your serious tuning.

[07heri]

Sounds like a plan.  Tomorrow morning I will run the cam analysis tool.  Then check the map reading after loading the results and post here.  I will test both of those maps and see which one starts and idles best.  And then take it from there.  Thanks guys for the help.

[HV]

Just last week we had a bike from another shop come in...running like a POS... it had a 103 with 204 Map in it after checking with the other Dealer we found that the bike was a 96 ...not a 103...and they used the 103 map due to the 204 cams they had installed ... after we Reduced the Engine Displacement to 96.7 in and reflashed it...and did a few Smart tune runs ( using a SESPT ) it ran fine... Data runs after showed no timing being pulled from any place it the runs.....so as Mayor said you still need to check Data runs to check timing...the 255 Maps are far diff timing wise then a 204 would be ....again as he said a complete Dyno tune would be the most complete option

[07heri]

Loaded the CAA176 map. 

Cam estimator says 5 / 2 for 255's
CAA176 has it set at 4 / 3 for 255's
Cam analysis has a break at 3 and a break at 4 for 255's

If I'm going to learn this stuff I should ask questions.  Why the differences? 

I loaded the CAA176 with 3 / 2 (3 from the cam analysis and 2 from the estimator).  The bike started fine and idles okay.  The map stayed pretty much at 35 @ idle.

Should I leave it at 3 / 2 or should I see if it idles/runs better at 4 / 2?  I plan to make a bunch of vtune runs this week so I probably need to get the cam settings in stone before I go any further.

Also any recomendations on CLB settings would be appreciated.  I'd prefer to have them on the richer side due to the heat down here.  I was thinking 739.

Once I hear your feedback on the cam set up and CLB's I will start doing the vtune runs.         

[mayor]

Loaded the CAA176 map. 

Cam estimator says 5 / 2 for 255's
CAA176 has it set at 4 / 3 for 255's
Cam analysis has a break at 3 and a break at 4 for 255's

If I'm going to learn this stuff I should ask questions.  Why the differences? 

I loaded the CAA176 with 3 / 2 (3 from the cam analysis and 2 from the estimator).  The bike started fine and idles okay.  The map stayed pretty much at 35 @ idle.

Should I leave it at 3 / 2 or should I see if it idles/runs better at 4 / 2?  I plan to make a bunch of vtune runs this week so I probably need to get the cam settings in stone before I go any further.

Also any recomendations on CLB settings would be appreciated.  I'd prefer to have them on the richer side due to the heat down here.  I was thinking 739.

can you post your cam data recording files?  you will likely need to open up a Box.net account to post them. the box account will come in handy later, if you want to post your data for scrutiny.   If after your changes the idle is around 35 kPa, you are probably fine. 

I run a slightly richer clb (762).  I just can't bring myself to go any leaner.   

[07heri]

How do I copy the data?  I just opened a box account and ready to copy it over so you can see it.

[07heri]

http://www.box.net/shared/bxdfulm11rodvz1ac535

http://www.box.net/shared/6xdxygt97cvi06tuurpd

One is the cam data and the other is a data log.  What I just noticed is the map kpa is lower at idle when I ran a data scan.  Why did I get different numbers on the two processes?  Was it because I did the cam data analysis with the cam settings at 4 / 3 (original settings in map) versus doing the data scan after I changed it to 3 / 2?

[mayor]

One is the cam data and the other is a data log.  What I just noticed is the map kpa is lower at idle when I ran a data scan.  Why did I get different numbers on the two processes?  Was it because I did the cam data analysis with the cam settings at 4 / 3 (original settings in map) versus doing the data scan after I changed it to 3 / 2?

that is probably why you had two values.  I'll review the data and post a response in a little while. 

[mayor]

yep, it looks like the cam IO break point was 3 to me as well 

[07heri]

yep, it looks like the cam IO break point was 3 to me as well 

Any idea why there seems to be so much difference?  I've searched around and I see the same question asked, but no real answer.  Unless the manufacturers of cams aren't telling us the real specs one would think it's a no brainer.  Why even have the estimator in TTS if there's such a difference?  The estimator says 5 / 2...TTS puts out maps that don't follow suit with the estimator...then the cam analyzer comes up with yet another set of numbers.  Seems like alot of guesswork happening, but who knows, surely not me.

Well if you think I'm good with using 3 /2 then I will start doing some vtunes in the morning.  It's 101 outside today so I will get my vtunes in the morning and try to keep them all in the 70 - 75 degree times of the day throughout the week.  Hopefully by the weekend I will be doing some data runs to look at timing.

Thanks mayor 

[Steve Cole]

The issue we found when testing was that the specification cards and the camshafts did not match. This is why we named it an "ESTIMATOR" as we knew we could only get close. What we are looking for is the point that the valve begins to open/close and if you look at all the pieces involved with valve movement it's no wonder they are off. You have to deal with oil pressure, lifter design, pushrod length, rocker box, rocker ratio, valve height, spring pressure, cam gears, cam chain, crank chain, crank gears and then all the machining tolerances of all those parts. So the test is what tells you just exactly what your engine is doing, and it may not be the same as another engine with the same components.

[mayor]

Any idea why there seems to be so much difference?  I've searched around and I see the same question asked, but no real answer.  Unless the manufacturers of cams aren't telling us the real specs one would think it's a no brainer.  Why even have the estimator in TTS if there's such a difference? 

don't forgot when using the estimator that the goal was a setting just prior to the valve opening, so you are only talking a single digit difference in degree's between a setting of 4 or 5 when looking at the estimator values. A setting of 3 is a really only 3% difference in rotation than a 4, so it might seem like a big difference but it's really not. Steve covered the mechanical aspects of why pretty well, but I'll add that the specs are less important than how the engine tests out.  What TTS did was provide a measurement system so that the "tuner" can measure the result of a particular engine, then make an educated decision based on a measured number.  In this case with the intake open, I would believe the test. 

On the intake close, the spec shows the close at 25°.  The difference between a setting of 2 and 3 is 33° and 34°, so you are looking at around 2 1/2% of rotation off of the posted spec...still very small numbers.  My guess is either setting would work in this case. 

[07heri]

Made 2 vtune runs this morning....will continue tomorrow morning if everything looks good so far.  Let me know.



http://www.box.net/shared/4u5dr4fu7uot88ipx77m

http://www.box.net/shared/k34obait120mhl7prroc



http://www.box.net/shared/04e8a805k973e0nlo6hy

http://www.box.net/shared/6jt3j9eil9msisjzrxi1


I'm getting close to the limit on a few cells.  Is this normal on a 96" motor or do I have an issue with the rear cylinder I need to be looking at?

[mayor]

I'm having a hard time downloading the second .pdf, but from what I see it looks like you should make one more vtune run before deciding to change anything.  The red squares with white numbers mean that you can't quite trust that data, so run one more to see where those cells end up.

it is normal that one cylinder might breath better than the other, so no worries. 

[07heri]

Deleted and reloaded and seems to open better now.  I'm pushing the 127 limit on the rear cylinder in a few cells.  I will do 2 more runs in the morning and see if they come down.  The cells around them are lower so will have to see what happens.  Looks like I need to stretch my arms a little longer on the runs tomorrow as well.  I'm not too concerned above 4000 rpm's but I would like get more data farther out to the right.

[Steve Cole]

Look at adjusting the EGR to lower those RPM cells that are reaching into the 127 area. As you lower the EGR value it will cause your VE values to drop as well.

[mayor]

can you repost the 2nd Vtune VE screen shot with the low MAP highlighted.   Here's where you do that:

after you use the Vtune software to generate the VE's, the select settings/ Highlight Low Map

can you also attached the calibration that the 2nd vtune was run off of, and the file created.  You can attach those directly to you posts here using the + Attachments and other options found just below the dialogue box. 

I'm not too concerned above 4000 rpm's but I would like get more data farther out to the right.

keep in mind that you need to tune at least 500 rpm past where you might ride, since all surrounding cells factor into what the ECM decides the values for a particular reading should be. 

[07heri]

here you go

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[07heri]

New map after 2nd vtune

...sorry it posted twice

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

do another vtune run to dial the ve's in closer.  It doesn't look like you have enough info to make a good decision on EGR yet:


you also need to work on getting some higher rpm's (take it to 5k, which should help you get data to 4,500).  to get a higher percentage of TPS in the lower rpm's, try using 5th and 6th gear there....just don't agressively twist the wrist of you will max out the allowable MAP. 

[Steve Cole]

I would pull about 10%- 15% from the rear EGR table from 1750 - 4000 RPM based on what I see, prior to running another Vtune. This is going to lower just the rear cylinder VE values and give you a little more head room