DTT TCFI IID

[FLSTCI124"]

Has anyone really ever had any luck using the TCFI IID (or IIID)? I've tried for the past 4 years and it's never ran very well. Never could find any tuners within a few hundred miles of my area that were familiar it and I sure wasn't going to pay them to learn on my engine! Everone seemed to be either PC or SERT.

Talked with Doc in Orlando and he's a SERT man. One of the best according to most everybody & his opinions are taken pretty heavily...

The big-inch guys I've talked to that did try the TCFI ended up ripping it off and going with a SERT / TTS. And these guys were way beyond average tuners (myself), a few even had unlimited dyno access.

[jabarr]

Well this being the 3rd attempt to respond to your message. I will give you the short version---No.  The results after much dyno time are mediocre at best. (several different IID equipped bikes)  Their tech support sucks to put it nicely. 
Go with the TTS and don't look back.

[FLSTCI124"]

I noticed on another forum others are trying to unload their TCFI II/IIID's.  Not asking close to what they paid, pretty much giving them away.

[uglyDougly]

  I had to tune a 124 last summer with a TCFI III because the guy who built the engine took the original Delphi ECU (with SERT) and sold it on E-bay.
  The bike came to me with another self-tuning product that eventually failed and took out the starter drive. The only way I could get the thing out of the shop was to tune it with a TCFI III that I had at the shop.

  It auto-tuned just fine on the dyno, the ignition adjustment was straight forward because you can see the 3-D maps.

  The thing auto-tuned itself into the ditch so I disabled the closed-loop below 2500 RPM, tweaked the idle and off-idle using the data and the WEGO III O2 sensors. It tokk a bunch of part-warm restarts to get it right but it responded just fine.

  It took a little dinking around to get it to idle down at stop-lights but that was because I wasn't too familiar with the speedo cal and it had adjusted the low end 'til it was way off.

   The customer thinks I can walk on water. Well, maybe not that, but he's tickled pink with the way it runs.

   Any problems weren't caused by the system they were caused by my ignorance. I've been working on that.

   Doug

[uglyDougly]

  Yes, the experience is much like tuning an M-M H-D except for the auto-tune part.
  The Delphi does produce a slightly more sophisticated result when done right. It does a lot more processing.
  The reason I took the time to get this TCFI III right is; If I claim to be a tuner, I'm not going to be the second-to-last tuner. He's an a**hole!!

   Doug

[ToBeFrank]

I was not enamoured with was the time I had to spend reading and "dinking", reading and dinking, before I started to understand and became successful tuning the base mapping for fuel ignition timing on a 131ci engine.

I believe the term for that is "learning". 

[uglyDougly]

ToBe said; 'I believe the term for that is "learning".'

Bob an I both have spent more than retail for our educations.

   doug

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

Has anyone really ever had any luck using the TCFI IID (or IIID)? I've tried for the past 4 years and it's never ran very well. Never could find any tuners within a few hundred miles of my area that were familiar it and I sure wasn't going to pay them to learn on my engine! Everone seemed to be either PC or SERT.

Talked with Doc in Orlando and he's a SERT man. One of the best according to most everybody & his opinions are taken pretty heavily...

The big-inch guys I've talked to that did try the TCFI ended up ripping it off and going with a SERT / TTS. And these guys were way beyond average tuners (myself), a few even had unlimited dyno access.

I could answer your question by saying absolutely, but that would make it sound too easy.  So, a simple "yes" will do best.  The IId system is not plug and play. 

Just this past weekend, I decided to zero out the front cylinder trim table because the tune was not as perfect as I thought it should be.  The back cylinder is tuned just fine but the front cylinder showed a lot more variation in AFR than the rear:  the front afr would swing or react too strongly to differing conditions even though the front AFR tracked the same as the rear AFR in terms of direction but not deflection.  After I zeroed the front cylinder trim (put 100 in the cells and uploaded it), I prepared for the worst when I hit the starter.  Heck, it ran nearly as smooth as a goldwing.  I BLMd the front cylinder a few times and it runs ever better.  I did not blm the rear cylinder during this process.  The point is that after over 2 years of messing with the IId, I still learn new tricks or quirks.  Whether it is a trick or a quirk depends upon how frustrated you have become which is usually very quickly as far as I am concerned.  The other point is that you really need to study the graphs provided in logged data and think about what is going on in terms of VSS, TPS, IAC, BLM, AFR and timing and multiply the time figuring it out by two since you have to do it to two cylinders.

If I had to predict the stability of the IId in terms of repeatability, meaning the tune seems to stay the same, I must admit I don't think the IId maintains the tune you install as well as it should while in constant closed loop.  So, I develop the map in closed loop, then go to open loop until I think I need to freshen the tune which might not be for a year in the fairly tropical and flat environment I ride in.  A lot of people disagree with this approach, but it works better on my bike than constant closed loop. 

I tuned my bike last summer and got 40 miles per gallon on the street (4.25" bore motor) while having a good time from stop light to stop light and I was able to keep the cylinder head temps below 130C while moving.  I wish I had saved that map!

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

Has anyone really ever had any luck using the TCFI IID (or IIID)? I've tried for the past 4 years and it's never ran very well. Never could find any tuners within a few hundred miles of my area that were familiar it and I sure wasn't going to pay them to learn on my engine! Everone seemed to be either PC or SERT.

Talked with Doc in Orlando and he's a SERT man. One of the best according to most everybody & his opinions are taken pretty heavily...

The big-inch guys I've talked to that did try the TCFI ended up ripping it off and going with a SERT / TTS. And these guys were way beyond average tuners (myself), a few even had unlimited dyno access.

If you want to sell you IId, let me know since I am building another engine for me.

[uglyDougly]

  The IID system has always had some strange front cylinder trim tuning algorithms. Whereas the TCFI III uses the same strategy for both front and rear cyl. because it has two O2 sensors, the TCFI IID does some strange stuff to the trim (front) cylinder that often makes the trim cyl table a little wonky.
  The cool thing is you can tune the front manually (y'know, the old fashioned way) and have a real good map.

  Seabrook knows how to use it and it works fine for him too. It is about the learning.

  Doug

[speedglide]

So far............
I'm running a DTT with success on a stock 88" with Rinehart duals, CFR mufflers, and Doherty intake.  It did take some time to learn it.  I was told to leave the front cylinder trim alone, interesting that ya'll are zeroing it out!  I have wanted to do that! 
I'm currently in the middle of tearing down my motor and installing a HQ 98ST kit. We will see how the tune goes with that! It's good to see a few of you having good luck! I may have a few questions... LOL!
Jason

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

  The IID system has always had some strange front cylinder trim tuning algorithms. Whereas the TCFI III uses the same strategy for both front and rear cyl. because it has two O2 sensors, the TCFI IID does some strange stuff to the trim (front) cylinder that often makes the trim cyl table a little wonky.
  The cool thing is you can tune the front manually (y'know, the old fashioned way) and have a real good map.

  Seabrook knows how to use it and it works fine for him too. It is about the learning.

  Doug

Doug,

You are too kind.  The IId has dual O2 sensors.  The III has auto ignition advance, I am told.  Notwithstanding the IId dual O2 sensors, the front BLM and trim map is probably something which needs more attention that I ever thougth.

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

So far............
I'm running a DTT with success on a stock 88" with Rinehart duals, CFR mufflers, and Doherty intake.  It did take some time to learn it.  I was told to leave the front cylinder trim alone, interesting that ya'll are zeroing it out!  I have wanted to do that! 
I'm currently in the middle of tearing down my motor and installing a HQ 98ST kit. We will see how the tune goes with that! It's good to see a few of you having good luck! I may have a few questions... LOL!
Jason

If you do zero it out, save the map before you alter the map, assuming it does not blow up on the first attempt to start it after you zero it out which was what I thought mine might do..... but it didn't.

[uglyDougly]

  Sorry to re-ignite this after a couple days.

  But not sorry enough to let it go.

  My experience was with a TCFI III but if the IId uses the dual O2s it's my mistake.
  Anyway the system auto-adjusts the AFR just fine but it is susceptable to reversion influence if you leave it in closed-loop below 2750.
  Chris Schroeder (DTTs EE) is correct when he points to open or lightly restricted systems causing problems at low speeds but it still auto-tunes quite well, you just can't leave it.
  Because both cylinders use the same strategy, unlike the original single O2 system, either cylinder can go bad.

  I think the system works over a wider range of builds than Chris gives it credit for.

   In reality it is almost the same as the M-M system, that nobody tunes, but everyone gripes about. (Yes, I'm dealing in absolutes!!)

  Doug

[uglyDougly]

In response to; .'..auto-adjusts the AFR just fine but it is susceptable to reversion...'
Bob asked:   'Doesn't that apply to any closed loop, wide band auto-tune system?'

   Yes. But you know that.

   That might be why tuners have a place in the grand scheme of things.

  Doug

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

Several years ago when I research basic aspects of Alpha N systems, I kept running across statements like this:  "I'd suspect straight alpha-n. No need for a MAP in the mix. Alpha-N is very common on race cars. A well mapped system will have good driveability and response. The downside is it must be mapped perfectly... so its most commonly used on applications that get checked, evaluated, and remapped constantly."  And statements a bit bolder such as this:  Alpha N systems are not designed to work with MAP sensing and is used in applications where the map signal is erratic due to, especially, the use of radical cams.

Of course, I have no idea if there is any truth to those statements even though some similar statements seemed to come from knowledgeable sources. 

However, my experience in tuning the DTT TCFI II and IId and now the III suggest that the first quote is on the money.  If that first quote is accurate, it explains a lot of what I have seen in the "loss of tune over time" with the DTT TCFI  Any ideas or comments Doug or others?

[speedglide]

So far............
I'm running a DTT with success on a stock 88" with Rinehart duals, CFR mufflers, and Doherty intake.  It did take some time to learn it.  I was told to leave the front cylinder trim alone, interesting that ya'll are zeroing it out!  I have wanted to do that! 
I'm currently in the middle of tearing down my motor and installing a HQ 98ST kit. We will see how the tune goes with that! It's good to see a few of you having good luck! I may have a few questions... LOL!
Jason

If you do zero it out, save the map before you alter the map, assuming it does not blow up on the first attempt to start it after you zero it out which was what I thought mine might do..... but it didn't.

Absolutely!!!  Thanks!!
jason

[speedglide]

  Sorry to re-ignite this after a couple days.

  But not sorry enough to let it go.

  My experience was with a TCFI III but if the IId uses the dual O2s it's my mistake.
  Anyway the system auto-adjusts the AFR just fine but it is susceptable to reversion influence if you leave it in closed-loop below 2750.
  Chris Schroeder (DTTs EE) is correct when he points to open or lightly restricted systems causing problems at low speeds but it still auto-tunes quite well, you just can't leave it.
  Because both cylinders use the same strategy, unlike the original single O2 system, either cylinder can go bad.

  I think the system works over a wider range of builds than Chris gives it credit for.

   In reality it is almost the same as the M-M system, that nobody tunes, but everyone gripes about. (Yes, I'm dealing in absolutes!!)

  Doug

Soooo..........
I have left my auto tune "ON" over 16k. No problems. BUT this is on a stock build.  I currently have the motor tore down and my parts are on their way back from HQ.  What should I watch for, and/or when would you suggest I turn the autotune "off"?  I'm assuming as soon as I can get most cells to fall within 2-3%, it's time to turn it off?
Thanks guys!!
Jason

[uglyDougly]

  Speedglide, stock cams have very limited overlap which makes the job of auto-tuning much, much easier.
  Overlap; not good for emissions and drivability, way good (no, necessary) for power.
  It's the overlap along with low restriction mufflers (or open pipes) that allow/create/enable the reversion that throws the sensors a curve-ball. If you find areas that repeatedly go out of tune (typically in the torque dips) you can let it auto-tune while adding some exhaust back pressure/restriction, then remove the restriction and disable auto-tune in that region.

   Doug

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

  Speedglide, stock cams have very limited overlap which makes the job of auto-tuning much, much easier.
  Overlap; not good for emissions and drivability, way good (no, necessary) for power.
  It's the overlap along with low restriction mufflers (or open pipes) that allow/create/enable the reversion that throws the sensors a curve-ball. If you find areas that repeatedly go out of tune (typically in the torque dips) you can let it auto-tune while adding some exhaust back pressure/restriction, then remove the restriction and disable auto-tune in that region.

   Doug

I thought that the DTT III might have had selective deactivation of autotune based on your statements, Doug.  It finally struck me what you mean:  put 0 or 1 in the BLM cell you want to stop auto tuning and upload it.  Ok, that is the method I use also during the tuning process when I have a cell tuned and it needs no additional tuning in that cell but other cells still need tuning and I leave 100 in those cells so it will tune.  FWIW, if you put 1 in the cell, you can log the data but it won't autotune.  If you put 0 in the cell, it will not autotune and the data won't log either.  I don't know why Chris puts 0 in the idle cells since having logged data does not hurt anything.  Maybe I don't understand everything about 0 and 1 so Chris's using 0 in the idle cells in the BLM table may make sense.  But if a 1 in the appropriate BLM cell stops autotuning yet allows data logging, then using a 1 in the idle cells might be the hot ticket for on the road idle information via logged data.  Just a thought......  .

The more I deal with tuning, the more important I find the need to tune thoroughly in the cells below 15 percent throttle position.  More time is spent riding in that TPS area and more time needs to be spent tuning in that area, for a street bike.  I was surprised to find that I am at about 10 percent TPS at 70 mph, I would have guessed 20 percent or a bit less.

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

Soooo..........
I have left my auto tune "ON" over 16k. No problems. BUT this is on a stock build.  I currently have the motor tore down and my parts are on their way back from HQ.  What should I watch for, and/or when would you suggest I turn the autotune "off"?  I'm assuming as soon as I can get most cells to fall within 2-3%, it's time to turn it off?
Thanks guys!!
Jason

Going to open loop is not necessarily .......... necessary. 

It depends on whether you lose a good tune over time while in closed loop.  If you don't lose the tune while in closed loop, then let it autotune all the time.  Sometimes it is difficult to tell whether you are losing a good tune due to autotune quirks or if the loss of tune is due to other factors such as weather, degraded fuel or weak spark plugs etc.. So, on a smaller build, especially one with the stock Throttle  Body, stick with autotune until you notice degradation while in autotune.   Then isolate the areas of degradation, and disable autotune in that cell while putting the alpha n number back where it was before the degradation (which you won't be able to do unless you saved the good tune, periodically, while autotuning).  It ain't easy, but it is fun.  If you don't like to tinker, leave it in autotune, save your map once a month or so, and if it degrades, then check the degraded map/alpha n against the saved good map and change it back, or  better yet, just upload the good map and if that fixes the problem, then you have a bit of autotune degradation which you just fixed by uploading the prior good map.  In that event, run that good map in open loop until you need to freshen the tune or when you make a significant change to the engine such as timing, intake or exhaust or even gearing.  There are a lot of other tricks but they will probably be unnecessary for your build as opposed to something with wild cams, large TBs, etc..

There are other ways of doing this, but this method is fairly simple if you will just save a good map for future needs.

After saying all this, you should periodically check your logged data to make sure that your TPS voltage is within tolerance at the correct ET before changing any maps or uploading old maps to fix tune degradation.  Then verify the IAC position in logged data.  A change in TPS voltage will change everything in a fuel map!

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

Bob,

I have not worked on it yet.  This week, I will.  The ring and pinion are  in, though. 

We suspected the front SnS compression release was not staying open.  We checked it and it appears to be shutting closed too early.  WE will verify it this week and go from there.  Then we will download my new map which ought to be within 20 percent of correct.   At 12 afr WOT, he dynoed at 146 hp SAE with a 700 plus lift cam and we are using a 657 Redshift now, so my map should be close once we get the afr corrected.

If we need some gems, we will give you a hollar.

[speedglide]

  Speedglide, stock cams have very limited overlap which makes the job of auto-tuning much, much easier.
  Overlap; not good for emissions and drivability, way good (no, necessary) for power.
  It's the overlap along with low restriction mufflers (or open pipes) that allow/create/enable the reversion that throws the sensors a curve-ball. If you find areas that repeatedly go out of tune (typically in the torque dips) you can let it auto-tune while adding some exhaust back pressure/restriction, then remove the restriction and disable auto-tune in that region.

   Doug

Doug- That's an excellent tuning suggestion!!! Thank you!  FWIW- I'm installing HQ's 98" ST build with their 575 cams.  The 575 is getting up there in overlap, at 44 degrees if I remember correctly. I have been reading up on overlap and it's effects on reversion. Your suggestion sounds like a good solution if it appears to be a big issue with my setup!

[speedglide]

  Speedglide, stock cams have very limited overlap which makes the job of auto-tuning much, much easier.
  Overlap; not good for emissions and drivability, way good (no, necessary) for power.
  It's the overlap along with low restriction mufflers (or open pipes) that allow/create/enable the reversion that throws the sensors a curve-ball. If you find areas that repeatedly go out of tune (typically in the torque dips) you can let it auto-tune while adding some exhaust back pressure/restriction, then remove the restriction and disable auto-tune in that region.

   Doug

I thought that the DTT III might have had selective deactivation of autotune based on your statements, Doug.  It finally struck me what you mean:  put 0 or 1 in the BLM cell you want to stop auto tuning and upload it.  Ok, that is the method I use also during the tuning process when I have a cell tuned and it needs no additional tuning in that cell but other cells still need tuning and I leave 100 in those cells so it will tune.  FWIW, if you put 1 in the cell, you can log the data but it won't autotune.  If you put 0 in the cell, it will not autotune and the data won't log either.  I don't know why Chris puts 0 in the idle cells since having logged data does not hurt anything.  Maybe I don't understand everything about 0 and 1 so Chris's using 0 in the idle cells in the BLM table may make sense.  But if a 1 in the appropriate BLM cell stops autotuning yet allows data logging, then using a 1 in the idle cells might be the hot ticket for on the road idle information via logged data.  Just a thought......  .

The more I deal with tuning, the more important I find the need to tune thoroughly in the cells below 15 percent throttle position.  More time is spent riding in that TPS area and more time needs to be spent tuning in that area, for a street bike.  I was surprised to find that I am at about 10 percent TPS at 70 mph, I would have guessed 20 percent or a bit less.

I had read this about the 0's and 1's before, thank you again for refreshing my memory about it!!  I also didn't realize the exact differences between the two, now I do!
Thanks again!!
Jason