EFI wisdom please

[05FLHTC]

Ok please share...sorry if this is an old subject.

My cousins 2011 103 limited is cooking his right leg & family jewels not to mention it has defaulted into the parade mode at least 3 or more times already & it has not been that hot here.  I doubt that's good for anything motor related, as it shakes like a whore on dollar night in that mode.

Closed loop or open?  The dealer is suggesting he "Potty mouth" can the closed loop...?

Won't the TTS or SERT allow the closed loop areas to be set at the desired AFR?  Or are the closed loop map sections only allowed to be set at some lean # like 14.6?

This 2011 also has the cat head pipe...so maybe that is also the reason for the suggestion to go open loop on the 2011, just a guess?

I'm out of this EFI chit...just trying to understand this.

The 2011 O2 sensors are them little ones located in the collector, so how does that play into the decision / choices with closed or open loop?

Please be kind & keep the replies simple for a carbed dinosaur like me

TIA 

[glens]

I'd recommend, because it's what I did on my '12, he spend the coin for a Fullsac X pipe (I was torn between it and the similar Fuelmoto offering, so I offer that as an option, too).  The cat generates quite a lot of heat doing what it does.  If it doesn't get hot, it ain't working.  If you go open-loop and throw enough fuel at the engine to cool it down, the cat will get considerably hotter as it burns off the excess fuel.  That is, until it fails and plugs up...

Some folks cut the stock "collector" open, shred out the cat, and weld the can back together, but I'd be leery about doing that as it would essentially put both O2 sensors into the same compartment.  I don't have any evidence that would be detrimental but I just wouldn't do it.  Besides, who knows, might have to put everything stock for a compliance check to renew plates some day.

I feel it's foolish to disable the closed-loop system.  It's certainly not necessary and depending on how (fuel) wasteful the bike was tuned that way, it could be dangerous.  Closed-loop can be set to run at the richer end of what the O2 sensors can monitor and the heat output is quite manageable there.  Closed-loop will keep things in check as/when corn fuel gets used or when non-corn gets used.  It'll keep things in check when fuel pressure or injector response warble around a bit.  It'll be economical to operate as the fuel prices fluctuate.

To get the most out of it, there's currently nothing better than the TTS tuning kit.  Something along those lines will be needed in any event, so might as well get the best.  It certainly ain't the most expensive, either.  On top of that, the TTS scheme of "parade mode" skips alternate cylinders.  When it happens, and it still will from time to time, no matter what he does, it runs a lot smoother while doing it.

[Jeffd]

quick short answer is you don't want to run open loop too rich with the cats.  if you run open loop the O2 sensors are taken out of play. 

[05FLHTC]

I hear that loud & clear. The cat is coming out for sure THX!

[mayor]

I agree with Glen and Jeff. If the cat comes out, make sure that it's because a different pipe comes in.     You can't just gut the cat from the collector, or the lambda sensors will cross talk resulting in a closed loop tuning mess.


The lambda based system (12mm sensors) allow for closed loop operation down to 14.34 afr, which is plenty rich enough for cruise areas. I'm with Glen, I'm a fan of closed loop...although, I would prefer 100% closed loop down to lower afr's out at the heavy throttle/high load  areas...but that's not how the Delphi system works. The Delphi closed loop is limited to only certain MAP ranges (although the range is quite broad around 25-83 kPa), which means there are some open loop areas by design.  That said, the Delphi limited closed loop system works pretty well in my limited experience.

I run a fairly lean (at least to us carb guys) cruise afr (14.5) on my TTS bike, and I haven't had an issue yet that makes me want to run richer.  I couldn't tell you if my parade mode has ever kicked on.  I'm sure it has in traffic at times, but as Glen said the TTS tuning system alternates the skip fire between the two cylinders so it is much less obvious than it only being limited to the front cylinder. 

He won't be able to remove the heat created by the cat, but dialing in the fuel requirements of the engine will likely reduce some heat coming off the top of the rear pipe.  If he has a limited budget, the tuning software would be a better first investment since a pipe change means tuning software is necessary anyway.   The good news is, the software is 100% expandable for future upgrades....when ever those upgrades might occur, and most pro-tuners recognise the format so this doesn't limit the tuning to dyi. Although, dyi tuning is not that difficult either since all the tools are there to achieve a fairly good tune if one puts in the time and effort.   

[05FLHTC]

What's the difference between removing the cat from the OEM headpipe (as long as we move the bungs up into the head pipes) or going with the aftermarket header?

[mayor]

What's the difference between removing the cat from the OEM headpipe (as long as we move the bungs up into the head pipes) or going with the aftermarket header?

you have to be carefull with moving the small sensor.  They aren't as heat tolerant.  You may be able to move them up a touch, but I'm not sure that will be enough or is even adviseable.

[05FLHTC]

What's the difference between removing the cat from the OEM headpipe (as long as we move the bungs up into the head pipes) or going with the aftermarket header?

you have to be carefull with moving the small sensor.  They aren't as heat tolerant.  You may be able to move them up a touch, but I'm not sure that will be enough or is even adviseable.

help Mayor what does x pipe use then for the closed loop, different O2 sensors & what is needed to be added to the OEM header so it uses the same bungs ^ sensors as the x pipe?  Are the parts not purchasable?

[mayor]

the x pipe is called that due to the design.  It joins the front and rear pipe into a collector in an x pattern (same location as where the stock head pipes collect).  All '10 and up touring bike pipes use the 12mm bungs, but not all will be in the same location or at the proper depth.  I can't speak personally for the pipes that Glen mentioned, but my guess would be that they would be set correct since they are designed by folks that have tuning experience.  The problem with the stock head pipe is there isn't a baffle in the collector once the cat is removed  to keep the cross talk from happening (front affeting rear, vice a versa).   Can a fellow add a baffle when the cat is removed, don't know....can't say I heard anyone trying it either.    

To give you an idea of how close the o2 sensor bungs are in the '10 and up pipes, I think coyote or Jeff posted some pics of the o2 sesnors sticking through into the collector in a supertrapp supermeg somewhere on the forum. 

[Jeffd]

they just have them seperated enough not to be an issue.  problem with the location of the sensors in the present location is there is not much room to move them where they won't hit something.  If you take the stock header you could weld a 6inch pipe of tubing to seperate them.

[wurk_truk]

For what you are trying to do, I would say Glens is 'spot on'.  I, myself prefer the Fuelmoto pipe, as it comes with two sets of bungs, but that is not an issue here.  These pipes moves the O2s just enough so that they don't cross talk.

Tune with tuner of choice and the bike will run better and be cooler.

I sent a PM recently to a member.  Now this is MY opinion, but:

Here is what I have learned from past experiences.

On an older (2007 and 2008) touring bike, they had the big O2 sensors up near the heads. The rear cylinder used a Y pipe to make both sides of the exhaust functional.

What would happen, is that fresh air would come up the left side and screw with that rear O2. Here's something all the guys that argue forget.... out of an exhaust, there are pressure waves, some of these wave carry the sound, but other waves head back TOWARDS the heads, and carry fresh air with them. This is a FACT of life on any exhaust and ours especially.

OK, you have seen how close the O2s sit next to each other on a pipe that has had the cat cut out, right? What happens is this: The pressure wave from one cylinder pulls oxygen back into the pipe in time for the other cylinder's O2 to see it. The code is written so that the data from the O2s are used at only certain times, but every other firing event lines up the reverse pressure wave thing and aims it at the moment the OTHER O2 is sampling. The area where the cat material becomes a big mixing chamber for the fresh oxygen.

On a decent pipe like a Fuelmoto, there is NO big chamber, still a chamber but not huge like a de-catted pipe, and also the O2s are moved towards the heads by a few inches. The makes the reverse pressure waves follow the correct pipe and NOT bang into the pipe that is getting ready to fire. When the waves follow the correct pipe... the O2 is 'turned off' for just that very reason.

You are correct in your assumptions on all of this. When tuning a bike, if the O2s are not placed properly, what happens is the data from the O2s are not 100% correct, and that makes the ECM keep applying more and more trims to keep the O2 centered, but what that does is cause the engine to run bad, because 'centered' on bad O2s leads to bad fuel trims, too.

We find this easily when tuning. If we erase all the fuel trims and the bike runs great again.... that's the 'proof' that the O2s are NOT able to do their jobs.

The CORRECT fix, for a cat-in-a-pipe, is to swap the whole pipe and then be assured the O2s will work as designed.

[glens]

The Fuelmoto and Fullsac X pipes both mount the O2 sensors in roughly the same locations (on the outside of the pipe) as in the stock pipe.  There's really not much excess room in that neck of the woods to get too creative with alternate locations anyway.  Both systems are available with both sets of bungs as an option.  I'd be a little hesitant to move the O2 sensors to a completely different location because I'm not quite sure that the ECM doesn't poll them at a specific time set for the designed location.  Maybe that doesn't make much sense, but timing of events in the ECM gets pretty specific in most other areas so it would come as no surprise to me that it'd make a difference in this regard, too.

The two pipes I mentioned reuse the stock heat shields for an appearance that only folks who are very familiar with such things would begin to have a clue something was afoot.  Certainly there are other fine offerings by major manufacturers but they mostly look different from stock, if that's a factor.

The Fuelmoto pipe appears to provide a better (surer) separation between the sensing elements than does the Fullsac.  I was a little concerned about that, but have not been able to detect any problems in use.  I will say that the Fullsac pipe slightly alters the lines of the exhaust system from stock.  It looks a little more "wasp-like" for lack of a better term.  It introduces a small amount of apparent angularity by providing a slightly narrower "waist" at the collector.  From everything I've seen (by pictures) the Fuelmoto pipe maintains the straight-line appearance the same as stock, so it must surely protrude sideways more than the Fullsac does.  I'd therefore surmise there's a tad more legroom right there with the Fullsac when it comes time to put the right foot on the pavement.  I can't say whether it means anything one way or the other since I wear 36" inseam pants.

No matter what he ends up doing, I've kept my stock headpipe unmolested, hanging in the shed, because I'm just paranoid enough to think I'll have to put it back on for a day every year some time in the future.  I don't know the price on a replacement stock headpipe with cat but it probably isn't any less than either of the two aftermarket models I've mentioned, and aside from swapping out the heat shields and O2 sensors, they bolt right on.

One other thing I'll mention is that, on both my '09 which suffered a premature demise due to a wayward deer and on my '12 which replaced it, I removed those silly plastic "heat shields" below and in front of the seat.  I never could tell any difference they made except to hold more heat around the rear cylinder.  But, like I said, my legs are plenty long-enough for what I use them for on the bike so maybe I don't have a clue about those shields.

[05FLHTC]

Thanks for the replies & info.

This is kind of what I was considering, but as Jeff has stated need to assure there is room for mounting the O2 in this location.

Another solution may be to extend the inner pipes into the collector or just remove it & run the dam thing in open loop I suppose.

Having issues here understanding how this location would be any hotter then with these o2 sensors mounted in the HOT cat or any different then the X pipe or fullsac locations?

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[Jeffd]

I would just cut it like this and weld a tube the same size as the header to continue the header well past where the senor bung is. then weld it back up.

[glens]

You might could shoehorn a sensor into that bend for the front cylinder, maybe, but I'd put money on that being a no-go location for the rear.  And you might could finagle something up in the collector.  If he's got more time than money it could maybe even be a little fun.

Best bet?  Spend some money on a pre-made headpipe and on a tuning interface (which is going to be needed in any event if he doesn't already have one), stay closed-loop, and be done with it.  It will get done exactly what he's looking for, and he can take that to the bank.  Like I said, I did it because my research and experience pointed me right in that direction right off the bat.

[05FLHTC]

Hey thanks for sharing, we will have all winter here in the frozen corruption capitol... so unfortunately for us time will not be an issue.

[mayor]

I like Jeff's pipe/baffle idea, I say go for it.....   

[05FLHTC]

Thanks for the info, I'll keep ya's posted...that $400 bucs can be used for the tuner or cams or bling 

[wurk_truk]

I think Glens glanced by something that needs to be considered.  There definitely is a setting or two in the ECM code for where those 02s are placed.   All one has to do is remember old skool tuning 101.

Using sniffers or testing at end of pipe, a tuner always had to be cognizant that what he was seeing on his AFR meter wasn't what was happening at that instance of time.  There was a lag, so to speak.  I'm pretty certain the ECM is programmed to allow for this lag.  I, myself, would hesitate to move the 02s more than an inch or so, just like Fuelmoto only moved their o2 location.  Even though the o2s output voltages all the time, that doesn't mean the ECM pay attention all the time.  The ECM has built in a 'sampling rate' on when it looks and when it doesn't.  Also, since softails use a different location... they also use different base cals, too....  different sampling rates and sampling times.

One should strive for the idea that the o2s will be reading the correct exhaust pulse.  There is more to it, than just worrying about how much heat an o2 can 'take'!

[hrdtail78]

VH's power duals. (X-pipe) move the sensors pretty far up the pipe.  Right or wrong??  If the depth is fixed, I have a couple stable tunes out there with these.

I also have a stable tune out there with the cat cut out and head pipes extended into the collector.  Just like Jeffd proposes.  Only time he did have a problem is when one of his welds broke.  Extension was floating around in there and really causing some problems.  He cut it open and fixed it.  No problems.  So weld it once correctly.

[wurk_truk]

Cool on the Jeff D fix

[glens]

I fetched some pix for comparison.  It appears as though the fuelmoto pipe has the front sensor actually scooted back a tad as compared to stock, the fullsac is about the same as stock, and the v&h, I just can't say.  But the v&h instructions mention a wire holder attached under one of the transmission cover bolts as part of the kit, and the right floorboard gets spaced out from the stock location, which ain't required on none of the others.  The v&h appears to use up a bit more 3d real estate than the others on the right side of the bike.

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[Steve Cole]

The HD O2 sensors are sampled once every engine firing cycle. So the ECM is seeing and using much more than the end user gets to see when data logging them. What we have found is you can move them around a lot without an issue provided you put them in properly and you stay away from the end of the pipe and too close to any crossover/collector points.
Looking at that FuelMoto pipe is the position of the top pipe sensor facing down when install on the bike? If so that's not a good thing to do at all.

[hrdtail78]

It is hard to see the rear one.

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[HogBag]

My bikes down at present so I have time to do the sensors again. Whats the best way to fit them now. I have them fitted as per bosch specs.  Should I fit them straight into the headers with the 02 18mm thread flush with the pipe or leave them angled ?
Thanks