Adaptive Knock Retard

[05Train]

I've been playing around with the MyTune software to get my timing optimized in conjunction with the TTS.  The results have been nothing less than breathtaking (2-3 mpg improvement, much punchier acceleration, no timing pulled anywhere now).  But then it occurred to me that I never turned the AKR off.  Are the values reset every time I re-flash the ECM, or do I need to start over again?

[05Train]

Well Ok then......Guess I'll try a run with it shut off and see if there's any difference.  I'd assume that the values are reset when the ECM's re-flashed, but what the heck.

[wolf_59]

I believe you are correct any auto adjust type features in TTS are reset each time you re-flash

[pauly]

G'day Train,

Wolf is right on the money - the AKR tables are calculated (adapted ;-)) over time, but zeroed with each re-map.

Did you find MyTune did what you would have done (manually) to the timing tables or were there differences?

Pauly

[05Train]

Did you find MyTune did what you would have done (manually) to the timing tables or were there differences?

It did, but it did it much quicker.  Literally, I was able to do in an hour what it had taken me 2 weeks to do manually.  I don't know how the algorithm works, but it appears to work around the knock event pretty intelligently and progressively.  It also works in 1/4 degree steps.  Over the course of 5 runs (10-15 minutes each), it pulled a total of 2 degrees out of a couple of places, but it did so 1/2-3/4 degree at a time.  What's really interesting is that the ECM was yanking between 6-8 degrees through some of these events.  With the 2 degrees removed, there's no more timing being pulled.

What I've been doing is adding a degree everywhere, then letting the software pull it back where necessary (this can be done on the side of the road in about 30 seconds).  Then it's just a matter of pasting the corrected timing tables back into MasterTune, saving and reloading the map, then recording again.

I'm at the point now where I think I've maxed out some of the rarely used/difficult to hit areas, and I'll start targeting a few more areas where I think I can add a bit more.

Hell, maybe I'll just post my map tonight when I get home and see what y'all think.

[Steve Cole]

Once pinging has started it take 3 -4 times as much timing removed to stop it. So the trick is to locate it and then remove a small amount to not allow it to ever start. One thing to remember is that when doing the timing you are only setting it in the conditions the engine has run in. So be careful, because if you get it to close to the edge and the weather warms up or your riding loaded versus unloaded you may get your pinging back.

[05Train]

Once pinging has started it take 3 -4 times as much timing removed to stop it. So the trick is to locate it and then remove a small amount to not allow it to ever start. One thing to remember is that when doing the timing you are only setting it in the conditions the engine has run in. So be careful, because if you get it to close to the edge and the weather warms up or your riding loaded versus unloaded you may get your pinging back.

Yup, I thought about that.  Unfortunately it's cooling off here, so my last dozen or so timing runs were made in the high 70s.  That'll certainly hold through winter, but I'll have to take another crack at it in the spring when we get back into the 80s.  But there's certainly some logic to having both a winter and a summer map.

[Steve Cole]

No need for two calibrations. That is why we have the "Spark Temperature Correction" table in our software. This allows you to adjust for temperature changes. So you can see one needs to apply what is going on in more than one table when adjusting the spark. If you only have a front cylinder knock then you have to go to that table but if you have knock from both cylinders one must be careful and look at the temperature as it may be much better to adjust from the temperature table than the cylinder tables.

[05Train]

No need for two calibrations. That is why we have the "Spark Temperature Correction" table in our software. This allows you to adjust for temperature changes. So you can see one needs to apply what is going on in more than one table when adjusting the spark. If you only have a front cylinder knock then you have to go to that table but if you have knock from both cylinders one must be careful and look at the temperature as it may be much better to adjust from the temperature table than the cylinder tables.

So should the "Spark Temperature Correction" table be zeroed out when doing timing runs?

[05Train]

Not sure if this is gonna work, but here's the map.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/46283508/101811final.MT8

[uscanuck]

Train, are you using the MyTune software on the Ultra?

[05Train]

Train, are you using the MyTune software on the Ultra?

Yes.  The VE-related stuff doesn't work on the '09-up Touring bikes, and isn't needed with the TTS software.  But if you construct a set of custom axes, it works just fine for the timing.

[05Train]

Here's the spark advance graphs so far....

[05Train]

Bizarre.  Did 5 more runs today, was able to add nearly a full degree across the board in the rear cylinder, got a lot more timing pulled up front in the 50-80kPa range from 2250-3000rpm.  Ambient temperature was much cooler today too.  For the life of me, I can't figure this out.  The rear cylinder can't get enough timing, the front is exploding when I gas it from cruising speed.


Mayor, any thoughts?

[Coyote]

Bizarre.  Did 5 more runs today, was able to add nearly a full degree across the board in the rear cylinder, got a lot more timing pulled up front in the 50-80kPa range from 2250-3000rpm.  Ambient temperature was much cooler today too.  For the life of me, I can't figure this out.  The rear cylinder can't get enough timing, the front is exploding when I gas it from cruising speed.


Mayor, any thoughts?

Swap or replace your spark plugs. I had one of mine pulling timing all over but I could not every hear any knock... new plugs fixed it.

[05Train]

Bizarre.  Did 5 more runs today, was able to add nearly a full degree across the board in the rear cylinder, got a lot more timing pulled up front in the 50-80kPa range from 2250-3000rpm.  Ambient temperature was much cooler today too.  For the life of me, I can't figure this out.  The rear cylinder can't get enough timing, the front is exploding when I gas it from cruising speed.


Mayor, any thoughts?

Swap or replace your spark plugs. I had one of mine pulling timing all over but I could not every hear any knock... new plugs fixed it.

Did that (thanks to your post about that elsewhere).  The plugs only have 4,000 miles on them.

[mayor]

I think you are trying to run too much timing in some places, and not running enough in some places.  Keep in mind that just because there's no timing being pulled, doesn't mean that you aren't over advanced for maximum tq. 

based on the compare to original, it looks like you've been pulling timing out of the 2,750-3,250 55-65 kPa areas (green circles). 



I personally think timing rates should have a nice flow, meaning smooth transitions.  I do not think that timing should ever need to be reduced as you go down a column (lower rpm to higher at a particular MAP range), but that takes one thing for granted: the timing in the above cell(s) was correct. I also don't think that timing should increase on a row as the MAP increases (from 40 kPa and greater MAP). With that in mind, I think you need to work on the blue circled areas.

I also think you can reduce your maximum advance to a maximum of 45 degrees (purple circled areas).

The high MAP from 2k-3,750 (orange circles) looks to be under advanced.  My guess is you should be able to add more timing in those areas, and if your are getting pulled timing there try adding to the ve's. 

[05Train]

Thanks Mayor.  I VTuned the piss out of this map, but (as usual) the 95 & 100 kPa areas were blended.  I'll try running VTune tomorrow to check the VEs, and see if the higher areas can take any more advance.

[05Train]

I collected some really good data today in the mountains.  Got a chunk of timing out in the midrange, a couple of other spots up top in both cylinders.  I chopped the max advance to 45 degrees in the front and 46 degrees in the rear, and blended things a bit.  I probably won't get a chance to ride again 'till the weekend to see how it goes.  I'm about 400 miles from my 45,000 mile service, so once I do that (fresh oil and clean air filter) I'll take a stab at a couple of VTune runs to see how the VEs are with the timing changes.

[Jeffd]

I collected some really good data today in the mountains.  Got a chunk of timing out in the midrange, a couple of other spots up top in both cylinders.  I chopped the max advance to 45 degrees in the front and 46 degrees in the rear, and blended things a bit.  I probably won't get a chance to ride again 'till the weekend to see how it goes.  I'm about 400 miles from my 45,000 mile service, so once I do that (fresh oil and clean air filter) I'll take a stab at a couple of VTune runs to see how the VEs are with the timing changes.

I know Steve Cole says 45* should be max.

[pauly]

I can vouch for the 45 degree thing.. I had some 46ers in my map, and Mayor (bless'im) suggested I take them back to 45.. Smoother bike now - even though 46 or 47 would be ok (no knock retard events).

Pauly

[05Train]

Loaded the new map with the "smoothed" timing.  Bike doesn't seem like its lost any punch, felt a little smoother (granted it was just commuting this morning).  I'll datalog on the way home and see how it looks.

[mayor]

 

[05Train]

More explosions up front this afternoon.  I made the changes, blended everything around where timing was being pulled, and made my max advance (in the rear) 45 degrees.  I'm going to finish my 45k service, then go back to VTuning, as something just doesn't seem right.  When I did my VE tables, I erred to the richer side.  Any corrections I see on cursory VTune runs are reductions in VE, so I can't see this being a fuel issue.

But something is goofy in the front cylinder, as there's a 12-15 degree difference in the midrange and high-MAP areas between the front and the rear.

[lonewolf]

More explosions up front this afternoon. 

Are you sure they are real?

[05Train]

More explosions up front this afternoon. 

Are you sure they are real?

Yes, I can hear them.  I was having phantom detonation prior to the plug change, this is the real deal.

FWIW, my air filter was filthy, so that could certainly be reducing the effective VE, it's just odd that the rear runs so much stronger.

[05Train]

I did two decent VTune runs today.  Pretty much everything is stable except for the high MAP areas from 3750 on up, which I'm gonna need to head back to the mountains to get.  There were a couple corrections to the good in my trouble spots, a little lower in a few other areas.  I'm consistently getting a cell or two in the low 80s, surrounded by cells in the 70s, but I'm not terribly concerned by that.

Weather permitting, I'll do a few more VTunes this week, with a monster day of tuning and timing next weekend in the WV mountains.

[N-gin]

I could not open your v tune file so with that in mind. Have you checked your fuel in the area were you are pulling timing in the front cylinder? Maybe you need more?

[05Train]

I could not open your v tune file so with that in mind. Have you checked your fuel in the area were you are pulling timing in the front cylinder? Maybe you need more?

Tried that, it runs fat when I do that.  I've just steadily reduced timing to the point where it runs right.

[FLTRI]

FWIW,
There is something wrong if there is more than a couple degs between front and rear ignition timing.
I would get that figured out first, then on to tune.
Bob

[05Train]

FWIW,
There is something wrong if there is more than a couple degs between front and rear ignition timing.
I would get that figured out first, then on to tune.
Bob

Define "wrong".  The rear is rarely more than 4 degrees further advanced than the front, except for this bizarre shelf I have from 2750-3250 starting at 55 kPa where there's as much as a 12 degree difference.  The VEs are close there, and 55kPa is the last cell I'm in closed-loop (though 3500 at 55 kPa is closed-loop as well, and the issue doesn't manifest itself there).

[05Train]

Rode in today and made a few changes to the map.  I dropped the 55 kPa column from 2500-3500 to .977 Lambda (from .981), and I removed that weird timing "shelf", lowering it at 55 & 60 kPa to be more consistent with everything around it.  Then I bumped up the 3000 & 3250 timing at 55 & 60 kPa. 

Bike ran good this morning in 50 degree air with no audible detonation.  Then again, this was Beltway commuting, not blasting through the mountains.

I'll datalog something on the ride home.  I'm wondering if that shelf was confusing MyTune, and it was just pulling timing all around the area.

[FLTRI]

05,
Just curious as to how and why there was such a huge timing difference between the 2 cyls...in that particular area??
That's just not right. No good reason for that strategy AFAIK.
Bob

[05Train]

There's a good reason.....I'm a moron.

I've been using MyTune to get the timing tables fixed.  In my excitement to use the software, I made a crucial data entry error....

Frank, the guy who wrote the MyTune software, PM'd me today while I was riding and said that the software couldn't be tripped up by that "shelf" that I had, therefore the problem had to be with the ECM.  The ECM's fine, which means it had to be the data.  After my second run, the results were getting worse again, so I really took a look at what changes were being made.


And then I remembered GIGO. 

Holy crap, I'd just been loading my .dm3 files without re-copying the starting timing after every run.  I ASSumed that when I copied over the new timing tables that the software was resetting them as the current tables after each run.  It doesn't (of course), so all I was doing was degrading the tune, while not running MyTune with the current starting point.

So, long story short, I'm a moron.

I've gone back to the first MyTune run I did back in September (since everything after that is all but worthless), pasted those tables into my current map with the revised VEs I've collected since, and loaded that back into the bike.  Friday's supposed to be dry, so hopefully I'll get a chance to try again.