Narrow Band Then Wide Band Tuning -Dynojet Power Vision

[Sporty 48]

Have been following on the XL Forum the Dynojet Power Vision development with Andy.
Jamie at Fuel Moto is a sponsor here but I do not hear much from them, wonder why?
This is a pretty fine development . Use the narrow bands to tune for economy, near stoich 14.68, then switch to wide bands for WFO stuff.
They are working to incorporate all this into the display so in the future no PC will be required.
Have been hoping TTS would step up to the plate with something to take it to the next level of tuning.
Whatever, BT guys are going to that forum too.
I have a feeling there will be some Dynojet Power Vision people here before too long, seems a shame that Andy, is getting all that attention, unmonitored by all the expert talent here...

[yositime]

Jamie was real active here about 6 months ago. He may still be active in the exhaust section. He seems to get challenged on a technical question he can't answer (or finds an answer he don't like) and then moves off to places his knowledge is not questioned so much. I dunno, just my perception perhaps.  Same thing happened over on one of the Australian forums I think.

I'm not so sure the DPV is the next best for the DIY unless loaded with cash. Lots of money for what you get. Besides the marketing flash (dynojet at their best), I think they are on the wrong track, stepping back in time... and will disappear in about two years.  But what do I know, I past up a deal on Apple stock 15 years ago...   But  how can you beat the laptop power plus a nice large iPad remote display for for your part time tuning, and then reuse the hardware for everyday life, like reading this forum

[FSG]

Jamie at Fuel Moto is a sponsor here but I do not hear much from them, wonder why?

I guess that should read "Jamie at Fuel Moto is a sponsor there" as here = HTT and there are no sponsors here.

[HogBag]

Ain't it great there's no sponsors here. Just supporters trying to keep HTT sponsor free.

[mayor]

Have been following on the XL Forum the Dynojet Power Vision development with Andy.
This is a pretty fine development .

forgive me for not following along to closely, what exactly is the fine development? 

so for about $550 list per flashed bike you get the Power Vision, then if you want to use the wide band feature you have to pay around $370 list for the AT-100 unit with wide bands.  Forgive me for being less than enthusiastic, but that's a pile of money to do a DIY tune. 

[whittlebeast]

Have been following on the XL Forum the Dynojet Power Vision development with Andy.
This is a pretty fine development .

forgive me for not following along to closely, what exactly is the fine development? 

so for about $550 list per flashed bike you get the Power Vision, then if you want to use the wide band feature you have to pay around $370 list for the AT-100 unit with wide bands.  Forgive me for being less than enthusiastic, but that's a pile of money to do a DIY tune.

But you get to fire your tuner....  Priceless

[glens]

Have been following on the XL Forum the Dynojet Power Vision development with Andy.

That would be http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1199290

This is a pretty fine development .

forgive me for not following along to closely, what exactly is the fine development? 

so for about $550 list per flashed bike you get the Power Vision, then if you want to use the wide band feature you have to pay around $370 list for the AT-100 unit with wide bands.  Forgive me for being less than enthusiastic, but that's a pile of money to do a DIY tune. 

It's almost as much fun as, like, going to hdforums or some of the others, and "listening" to the local gurus extol the virtues of, say, the Terminal Velocity, or XIED, or Cobra2000.  You know, the blacker the box the better it must be.

Well, the PowerVision ain't quite in that league, granted.

I took a while today and read through that thread.  Most of what Andy says there he has also said here.  Often cut and paste.  At least there it's mostly in context and makes a little better sense, in that respect.

It sounds like (or at least did at one point in the thread) DJ will be making it so that for $~200 per, you'll be able to use a PV unit to program other bikes as well.  Of course, the AT stuff is transferable in any event.

The PV has some interesting qualities, to be sure.  I suppose if I were given one I'd try it, but it doesn't interest me much beyond that.

[Sporty 48]

Special, this forum has a way of putting things into perspective. Interesting points of view here.
Does the TTS use wide band as well? Looking forward to trying it out.
I would welcome a gratis unit to explore as well, having a bit more confidence in the future of the gadget, but not quite willing to buy yet.

[mayor]

But you get to fire your tuner....  Priceless

you're right, it is priceless.....or at least that argument has no value to me, since my tuner already works for free.  

I'm not sold on this being the next great thing. I think it's a nice system, with a few benefits....but that's a pile of money.  If someone wants to send me one to try, I'd be all for that though....heck, I would even right a real nice report on the system. 

Glen, I read a thread earlier this evening on HDforums that looked current regarding this product .  Last I saw Jamie was saying that a cheaper multiple flash option was still be discussed....but I was only skimming over the thread, so maybe I missed the formal announcement.   I have to say, I'm not a big fan of their format over there.....way too many ads. 

[whittlebeast]

The PV programmers are still typing on the cool stuff.

Beast

[glens]

You were going to ask them for me how they're getting/deriving their "AFF" channel, remember?

I hope they're working on a way to do away with faux high-speed data collection when it's not available from the host.  That data replication they're currently doing is rather troubling.

[1FSTRK]

Have been following on the XL Forum the Dynojet Power Vision development with Andy.
Jamie at Fuel Moto is a sponsor here but I do not hear much from them, wonder why?
This is a pretty fine development . Use the narrow bands to tune for economy, near stoich 14.68, then switch to wide bands for WFO stuff.
They are working to incorporate all this into the display so in the future no PC will be required.
Have been hoping TTS would step up to the plate with something to take it to the next level of tuning.Whatever, BT guys are going to that forum too.
I have a feeling there will be some Dynojet Power Vision people here before too long, seems a shame that Andy, is getting all that attention, unmonitored by all the expert talent here...

I would be careful when defining “next level of tuning”. There is a difference between adding more tuning power and adding more gadgets. When one brand gave us the ability to view different maps on a screen but not alter their tune content, the other brand gave us adjustable cam/injector timing, and EGR trim tables. If it is a “bells and whistles” contest you may be right but if you are looking at the ability to access and alter the tables that allow you to retune the ecm to match the needs of the engine there is only one brand that says get it right the first time and you won’t need to be switching maps in the middle of a ride.

[Sporty 48]

No one jumped on this, not sure, does TTS, my tuning current provider, have wide band sensor capability?

Does the TTS use wide band as well? Looking forward to trying it out.

[mayor]

no, TTS does not have wide band capability at this time.  The thing that you must realize is TTS is only a software tool that allows you to access the tuning tables of the Delphi ECM.  TTS is not a tune provider, it's a tune enabler.  It gives you access to adjust the tables that you already have in your Delphi ECM.  What you do with that access is up to you, the tuner.  It appears that the Power Vision tuning table capabilities is very similar to TTS (minus some extra features that TTS has), and the PV is only able to add wide bands to it's tuning capabilities by using a secondary system (AT-100). 

[hpulven]

FWIW: Some thoughts about the price of Power Vision:

If you have a HD bike without a tachometer, in my country the tach alone would cost me about the same as a PV.

So, even if it couldn't be used for tuning, the gauges themselves are worth the price for me.
(Perhaps not for others.)
I can set up gauges for everything which can be logged or calculated (htt-speach: "fake" data  ),
for example speed, gear, rpm, fuel used accumulated, fuel used just now, with color-coding.
Even if some of this is based on "fake" data, the speed is calibrated to be the same as my gps,
the fuel consumption is the same as what I have read on the pump divided with distance travelled
and so on.
So, for me, it was worth the money only for the gauges and the ability to read and clear fault codes.
(Code readers are not cheap either...)

It is a new product, so the jury is still out on how it compares with other products in producing a good tune.
if it should turn oout to be a good tuner, many people, like me, would have to calculate in the price of a small laptop when comparing tuners.
(I got a big one, and I am never going to risk bringing a $2500 laptop along on a vibrating HD with antique suspension...)


On the other hand, I just got myself a free laptop, so now I have got TTS  as well. In spring I might post on comparing the tunes I will get from each system on the same bike, might be interesting ...

[Sporty 48]

Yes, I  enjoy the scrutiny of this site. Am learning so much.
Learned the difference between site supporter and sponsor, tuning deevice, tuning enabler, tune provider and tuning helper as opposed to Dyno tuner.
Now a deevice that allows the use of wide band sensors as well as narrow band sensors is not a step to the next level of tuning, hmmm.
Ok so as a TTS dongle owner and a proud member of HTT the goal is to explore the limits of tuning a Sportster.
Looks to me like Dynojet Power Vision is a step in that direction but I know (hope) TTS is working on the next level as well.

[brunothedog]

i have gotten a great running motor using tts and those damn stupid good for nothing nb sensors, some make it sound like with those other sensors i will get a better running bike, how, its already perfect, why, bragging rights? i gave up on the t-max with their wb sensors because on our revolution motors they sucked. never could get it to "auto tune", and it was mostly my fault for, the problems it gave me when i talked to the james.
with this shitty out-dated only nb sensor tuning tts, the motor purrs like a kitten, and when throttled, will rip in your guts like a lion.

I've drinken to much kool-aid from to many "auto, better, most advanced, etc.." businesses.

my bike is at its best and touché to Mr. Cole

[mayor]

Now a deevice that allows the use of wide band sensors as well as narrow band sensors is not a step to the next level of tuning, hmmm.

the wide bands (broad bands ats SC puts it) have been available for tuning systems for a while.  The Tmax and DTT efi systems use these, as does the PC5 system.  I'm not sure why anyone would find it necassary to have the capability to use both types of sensors.  Why do you think it is necassary to have both? does the wide bands not have the ability to accurately report the leaner afr conditions?

If I was looking for an ideal system it would be one that incorporates the use of wide band sensors in the fuel control side, but keeps the timing portion of the Delphi system. I can't help but think this could be done, but the flash nature of the Delphi ecm is likely the issue.  It seems the RevPer product is the closest to doing this, but they don't seem to let the operator have access to tweaking the calibration.  I thought at one time Steve said that the Delphi ECM has the capabiity to run wide bands....so it may be as simple as adding the appropriate hardware to support the wide bands and adjusting CLB's to a fixed desired afr level....but since the current software does not allow closed loop in the 90-100 kpa ranges, it may not even be possible in current form. What I do not know is if this is a limit to the Delphi system, or the TTS package.     

i have gotten a great running motor using tts and those damn stupid good for nothing nb sensors, some make it sound like with those other sensors i will get a better running bike, how, its already perfect, why, bragging rights? 

mostly, I agree...but the main benefit of adding broad/wide band capability is to be able to run richer or to be able to extend the tuning range out further in the higher TPS/MAP ranges.  The one area that I see a weakness with the TTS tuning system is the inability to the DIY'er to tune heavy throttle/high MAP areas. 

i gave up on the t-max with their wb sensors because on our revolution motors they sucked. never could get it to "auto tune", and it was mostly my fault for, the problems it gave me when i talked to the james.

I think that up until recently the Tmax system didn't do a good job of addressing the actual fuel needs of the higher rpm's associated with the revolution engines.  I think they wrongly took for granted that the higher rpm's could be handled with a limited number of fuel flow charts.  I'm pretty sure that's what the software update earlier this year was to address.  I don't know anyone who's using the Tmax on a vrod, so I'm not real sure how that change has worked out. 

I use both systems on my bikes (TTS and Tmax), and both of them are capable of producing nice results...but both require some work from the operator to make sure that the tuning devices are getting the data they need for best results.  I think this is the part some people miss with most tuning devices.  There really is no device on the market that has the ability to be intuitive to the engines needs, they all only have the ability to react to the data that they see. 

[whittlebeast]

The advantage to running widebands is that you can tune to a floating AFR target as opposed to a relatively fixed target AFR with the stock NB's.  I tune using the exact same procedure either way.

The advantage to having both NB's and WB's on the same bike is you can use the NB's in closed loop to do what they are normally good at,  holding the bike at stoich when that is in your best interest.  My Sporty was totally tuned on widebands but runs NBs in closed loop at near 0 throttle or below about 50 KPA.

I have a set of spare test pipes coming for the Sporty to be able to watch the narrow bands doing what they do at a fairly fast data rate.   I plan to log RPM, MAP, pulse width, narrow band and wide band front and rear.  This will be fun....

We do this sort of thing all the time in the Megasquirt world.

Beast

[Sporty 48]

We all want every bit of power we can get out of Ol' Beulah.
This is the first device to my knowledge to use both narrow and broad band sensors.
The question is does it work?
Sure would like to do a side by side using TTS and Power Vision.
That is what is so good about competing manufacturers, products tend to get better.

[glens]

Whoa, wait a minute here.  I think people are thinking you can run closed-loop using broadband sensors, either singly or in combination with the stock sensors, when you use a Powervision.  That's not the case.  You can only tune using them.  Nothing different than using a Twinscan II+, which has been around for quite a while.

I'm thinking that if the switching speed of the NBs limits practical use to ~6000 RPM, the BBs would then have a practical use of no more than half that unless the fuel and sensor closed-loop controllers are tied together process-wise.  ("Practical use" being "the way we do what we do now".)  Either that or a different scheme would be required on the fueling side of things, keeping the injectors constant-rate for any given situation (not oscillating them hi/low) and always just looking at things from an historical perspective.  Maybe I'm not conveying my thoughts on that in a clear-enough manner...

Andy, it surprises me that you haven't yet pulled the Delphi off your wife's sportster and used a Megasquirt instead.  Ought to be able to do that without any permanent (irreversible) ramifications, right?

[mayor]

We all want every bit of power we can get out of Ol' Beulah.

Essentially, we are only discussing the difference in the fuel delivery side of the equation when we're comparing the use of this product to TTS.  In reference to the use of narrow to broad band sensors in tuning.  How little variance in AFR off of the target AFR do you think that there can be before there's a perceptible difference in the power output of the bike to the operator?   like, do you feel that an AFR change of as little as .1:1 afr makes a difference in perceptible power?  if not .1:1, at what point?

Whoa, wait a minute here.  I think people are thinking you can run closed-loop using broadband sensors, either singly or in combination with the stock sensors, when you use a Powervision.  That's not the case.  You can only tune using them.  Nothing different than using a Twinscan II+, which has been around for quite a while.

yea.... my first thought when the notion of the attributes of PV were being explained was....I have TTS and a WEGO, so what's the advantage of this "new" system.    


I'm not familar with the Power Commander products, but I thought that the AT-100 system was used as a permanent addition to PC5 for continuous closed loop operation?  From what I'm reading this is not the case with the Power Vision system.  so, the AT-100 system comes off after the "tuning" is done using the PV, and then bike runs limited closed loop with narrow band sensors providing the feedback just like a TTS tuned bike?  I'm really not seeing the advantage of this system for the average person then.  It just seems like a lot of marketing fluff.   

[Sporty 48]

Mayor,
Power is in the eyes of the engine builder, tuner and then the rider has to be able to use it.
Some builders get 10-20 extra hp just the way they put the same parts together. I would guess a tuner could make the same or a greater difference.
Since my rev limiter is set at 6250 for this bike maybe a narrow band is all i need. That is why I'm here to learn the differences. So to answer your question, do not know how close the AFR would have to be before there is less power for me to abuse. So many variables to chase down and I am still not satisfied with my VE tables, the first step in a decent tune, the way I understand it.

On the Twinscan and WEGO, never heard of them. Do they do Sportsters? If i look them up and they do not do Sportys I just ignore them.

Went for a 2 hour ride today. Sunny, temps in the low 40's (F). Needed some high speed blasts to cure the blues, it worked great. Did I care that the tune is rich, no. This tune is so far ahead of what I started from and I know there is more to be had. Going to keep on right here until, well, cams this winter??? Know what I mean?
Was thinking today wheelies in every gear like my old motocross bikes did would be nice.

We all want every bit of power we can get out of Ol' Beulah.

Essentially, we are only discussing the difference in the fuel delivery side of the equation when we're comparing the use of this product to TTS.  In reference to the use of narrow to broad band sensors in tuning.  How little variance in AFR off of the target AFR do you think that there can be before there's a perceptible difference in the power output of the bike to the operator?   like, do you feel that an AFR change of as little as .1:1 afr makes a difference in perceptible power?  if not .1:1, at what point?

Whoa, wait a minute here.  I think people are thinking you can run closed-loop using broadband sensors, either singly or in combination with the stock sensors, when you use a Powervision.  That's not the case.  You can only tune using them.  Nothing different than using a Twinscan II+, which has been around for quite a while.

yea.... my first thought when the notion of the attributes of PV were being explained was....I have TTS and a WEGO, so what's the advantage of this "new" system.    


I'm not familar with the Power Commander products, but I thought that the AT-100 system was used as a permanent addition to PC5 for continuous closed loop operation?  From what I'm reading this is not the case with the Power Vision system.  so, the AT-100 system comes off after the "tuning" is done using the PV, and then bike runs limited closed loop with narrow band sensors providing the feedback just like a TTS tuned bike?  I'm really not seeing the advantage of this system for the average person then.  It just seems like a lot of marketing fluff.   

[mayor]

So to answer your question, do not know how close the AFR would have to be before there is less power for me to abuse. So many variables to chase down and I am still not satisfied with my VE tables, the first step in a decent tune, the way I understand it.

I don't mean to be frank about this, but you should really know the answer to that question before making tuning assumptions.  I think you are trying to move to advanced calculus... before mastering simple algebra. 

Power is in the eyes of the engine builder, tuner and then the rider has to be able to use it.
Some builders get 10-20 extra hp just the way they put the same parts together. I would guess a tuner could make the same or a greater difference.

generally the difference isn't in how the parts go together, but how the selcted parts work together.  Furthermore, I think that you are giving micro adjusting the ve's too much credit.   

 

Since my rev limiter is set at 6250 for this bike maybe a narrow band is all i need.

I think you missed Glen's point.  He wasn't suggesting that any other type of o2 sensor was better once you got to that point, but rather the contary...meaning that any other style of o2 sensor was much more limited in switching speed so thereby even less affective in the upper rpm's (although, I somewhat disagree). 

On the Twinscan and WEGO, never heard of them. Do they do Sportsters? If i look them up and they do not do Sportys I just ignore them.

WEGO is just an AFR meter, and it can be seen here:
here WEGO: Sunday CV44 carb tuning with an AFR meter

[cts1950]

Before the MT7 software and the 2007 touring set up wasn't the Wego II considered one of the best ways for the home tuner to get close to a proper tune? If it was, why not use the broad band sensor in conjunction to the factory NB sensors. Would that not give more info to tune from realising, the strengths and weakness of either system? All this talk has me interested in putting a second set of bungs on the headers to double check the tts tune with my Wego II.